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Transformation Necessary For Salvation and Imputed Righteousness

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Transformation Necessary For Salvation and Imputed Righteousness

"Alister E. McGrath, Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification, pp. 258-259: “William Tyndale, although making extensive use of Luther in his early polemical works, still intends to interpret justification as ‘making righteous’. Tyndale’s emphasis upon the renewing and transforming work of the Holy Spirit within humans is quite distinct from Luther’s emphasis upon faith, and clearly parallels Augustine’s transformational concept of justification. For example, see the Prologue to Romans, Works, 493-4, which emphasizes that faith ‘altereth a man, and changeth him into a new spiritual nature’…)."

If you follow the New Testament strand on transformation in Christ, that is, with Christ in the individual, from John 3: 1-7 - ye must be born again - to Romans 12: 2 - be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind - to Galatians 4: 19 - until Christ be formed in you - then to Philippians 2: 5 - let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus - and to II Corinthians 5: 17 - if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away - then you can see that Tyndale was right. These scriptures by Paul help to define what Christ means in John 3: 1-7 by being born again of the Spirit.

Revelation 12: 17 says the remnant has the testimony of Jesus Christ, and Revelation 14: 1, 4 says the 144,000 stand metaphorically on Mount Sion with the Lamb, and that they follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. Revelation 14: 5 says the 144,000 have no guile, no deception, and are without fault before the throne of God. They would have had to undergone a real transformation from the spiritual state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14 to become part of the group of lively stones, the spiritual house, and a holy priesthood, and a chosen generation (I Peter 2: 5, 9).

The over-allegorization of prophecy called amillennialism of Augustine and the Catholic Church, followed by many traditional Calvinists says, however, that the 144,000 are just the saved ones of the entire church age. If that is so, then everyone who is of the elect has undergone such a transformation that their level of consciousness is at a higher level, and they have come to the knowledge of the truth above that of the multitude in the churches for centuries. The implication is that the elect is always a remnant, though the numbers in that remnant differ across the centuries and decades."

Making the 144,000 just a broad sweeping allegory as being the saved people of the entire church age deprives Revelation 7 and 14 of being prophecy on the work of the 144,000. It is true, though, that the elect is always a remnant of all those claiming to be of God. The elect has undergone such a transformation that their level of consciousness is at a higher level, and they have come to the knowledge of the truth above that of the multitude in the churches. Those in the elect have been transformed, as Paul says in Romans 12: 2, where he uses metamorphousthe, or metamorphosized. And in II Corinthians 5: 17, "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature..."

Yet one set of scriptures cannot be used to totally overthrow another set of scriptures. Paul uses impute several times, mostly in Romans, to say that

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Romans 4; 8

Paul goes on in Roman 4: 9-11 to say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness when he was uncircumcised and Paul says "that he (Abraham) might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised: that righteousness might be imputed unto them also."

Reckoned and imputed in Romans 4: 8 and in Romans 4: 11 are from the same Greek word, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 3049, logizomai, to estimate, conclude, count, esteem, impute, lay, number, lay, reckon..."

And when God told Abraham that he and Sarah were to have a son who would transmit the birthright, Abraham believed God, though in Romans 4; 19 Abraham knew that his body was dead, since he was about a hundred years old and knew also that Sarah's womb was dead.

Romans 4: 22-25 says ""And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24. But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

The doctrine of imputed righteousness because of faith stands as absolute truth alongside the doctrine that we must be born again, transformed, to become a new creation in Christ in order to enter into the kingdom of God, which is salvation.

One of these doctrines cannot be said to do away with the other doctrine. So, we have to understand how both might operate. And it is the remnant who have a love of the truth that they might be saved (II Thessalonians 2: 10-12), and they want to uphold the doctrine saying we must be born again, transformed, to be saved.

Those who have been taught an easy salvation in the II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 church think they can be saved by alter calls, saying a sinner's prayer, etc while remaining in the spiritual state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who does not discern the things of the Spirit. These people are the ones who want to do away with the doctrine of salvation by transformation. They have not been transformed, but they think they are saved.

Since II Thessalonians 2: 10-12 says love of the truth is necessary for salvation, the implication there is that love of the truth depends upon a foundation of faith, which is a strong belief that the word of God is absolute truth and cannot be diminished or compromised. Faith in this sense is one outcome of the beginning of transformation, or being born again. And that kind of faith is imputed by the Lord for righteousness, which we, in the flesh, cannot fully achieve on our own.

Paul in Romans 4 is going back to the Old Covenant emphasis upon the flesh, in circumcision of the flesh of males, Abraham's and Sarah's bodies (their reproductive capabilities) being dead, and a literal transmission of the physical DNA of Abraham over generations to Christ himself in the flesh of man, as shadow of the coming spiritual substance (Hebrews 10: 1, Colossians 2: 16-17). But in going back to the Old Covenant emphasis upon the flesh, Paul is teaching about that which is spiritual under the New Covenant.
 
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"...except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God;" John 3: 3
The Pharisees of Christ's time thought the kingdom of God was a literal, physical kingdom, a political and military kingdom, and that the Messiah, when he appeared, would defeat the Romans and free the Jews, and probably extend the land controlled by Old Covenant Israel. Nicodemus, as a Pharisee, most likely believed in this physical kingdom, and thought that he, as a Pharisee, and a blood descendant of Abraham, had a right to be in that physical kingdom. John the Baptist said in Matthew 3: 9--10, "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father.....And now the ax is laid unto the root of the trees..."

"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..........For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3: 16, 26-29

Christ's important message to Nicodemus in John 3: 1-7 is that Christ made a big change and physical descent from Abraham no longer qualifies a Jew to become saved. And the kingdom of God is not a physical political-military kingdom, but is that transformation of man in the spiritual state of the natural man (I Corinthians 2: 14) into one inhabited by Christ in his mind and heart and spirit. When one is born again, he is regenerated by the Spirit of God; renewed in the spirit, in his mind and in his heart by Christ and has become a new creature. Those born again have a love of the truth and are not as easily deceived into following another Gospel as are those not born again, but who are told they can be saved by an easy grace. This is a real spiritual change, something that can be seen by others, especially by others who have already been born again in Christ.

John 3: 1-7 stands as absolute truth and cannot be compromised. Romans 4: 10-16 - imputed righteousness based on faith - also stands as absolute truth, and it too cannot be compromised. You have to figure out how both teachings can exist without one overcoming the other. A big part of the answer is that while in the flesh we are transformed by Christ's mind in us, but being in the flesh we do not have perfect righteousness. The righteousness of Christ must be given to us.
 
Member
Tulsa so this righteousness is not by the works of the law, but through the works of faith?
Is this what you are saying or have I miss understood you ?
 
Member
Here is one set of scriptures - on being born again or being transformed in order to be saved:

If you follow the New Testament strand on transformation in Christ, that is, with Christ in the individual, from John 3: 1-7 - ye must be born again - to Romans 12: 2 - be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind - to Galatians 4: 19 - until Christ be formed in you - then to Philippians 2: 5 - let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus - and to II Corinthians 5: 17 - if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away - then you can see that Tyndale was right. These scriptures by Paul help to define what Christ means in John 3: 1-7 by being born again of the Spirit.

And here is another set of scriptures saying that to be saved righteousness is imputed to you:

Paul uses impute several times, mostly in Romans, to say that

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Romans 4; 8

Paul goes on in Roman 4: 9-11 to say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness when he was uncircumcised and Paul says "that he (Abraham) might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised: that righteousness might be imputed unto them also.

And when God told Abraham that he and Sarah were to have a son who would transmit the birthright, Abraham believed God, though in Romans 4; 19 Abraham knew that his body was dead, since he was about a hundred years old and knew also that Sarah's womb was dead.

Romans 4: 22-25 says ""And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24. But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

The doctrine of imputed righteousness because of faith stands as absolute truth alongside the doctrine that we must be born again, transformed, to become a new creation in Christ in order to enter into the kingdom of God, which is salvation.

One of these doctrines cannot be said to do away with the other doctrine. So, we have to understand how both might operate.

The II Timothy 3: 5, 7-8 church wants to make salvation appear easier in order to grow church membership. So, it downplays being born again, or transformed, in order to be saved, and emphasizes salvation by faith, and imputed righteousness, while the person thinking he is saved stays in the spiritual condition of the natural man of I Corinthians 2:14, without being changed spiritually.
And it is the remnant who have a love of the truth that they might be saved (II Thessalonians 2: 10-12), and they want to uphold the doctrine saying we must be born again, transformed, to be saved.
 
Member
Tulsa love of the truth of his word is this what cleanses us ? There fore being made clean from his word , but what if some things we believe about his word isn't true , that we believe what a friend, love one, or even a preacher told us ?
 
Loyal
Tulsa love of the truth of his word is this what cleanses us ? There fore being made clean from his word , but what if some things we believe about his word isn't true , that we believe what a friend, love one, or even a preacher told us ?
So that's the head of the nail. :)
Or at least half of it. It has been debated here all along, what does believing in Jesus mean?
Is it simply - I believe there was a guy named Jesus. He "may" even be sinless. He "might" even be the Son of God. But hey I believe in Him.
Or does it mean believing in who He is, what He stood for, what He taught, following Him and His teaching, denying yourself and being obedient to Him.

The other half is... OK once I agree I Have to obey his word "that cleanses" and "has the power to save your soul".
Then it becomes quite a bit easier to agree what Jesus taught.
( Matt 4:4; Matt 4:14-20; Luke 8:21; Luke 11:28; John 1:1-3; John 1:14; John 5:25; John 5:38; John 8:31-55; John 14:24; John 15:3; John 17:6; John 17:14-20;
Acts 17:11; Rom 10:8; Rom 10:17; Rom 15:18; Eph 6:17; Col 3:16; Tit 1:9; Heb 4:12; Jas 1:22-23; 1 Jn 1:10; 2 Jn 2:5; Rev 3:8; etc... )

Matt 7:24 ; "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:26 ; "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Jas 1:22; But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
Jas 1:23; For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
 
Active
So that's the head of the nail. :)
Or at least half of it. It has been debated here all along, what does believing in Jesus mean?
Is it simply - I believe there was a guy named Jesus. He "may" even be sinless. He "might" even be the Son of God. But hey I believe in Him.
Or does it mean believing in who He is, what He stood for, what He taught, following Him and His teaching, denying yourself and being obedient to Him.
Believing in Jesus Christ is a supernatural work of God. It means truly and utterly believing in ones heart that Jesus Christ is exactly who he says he is, and that he shed his blood not just for people in general (though he surely did) but specifically for me. To believe in Jesus Christ is not to believe that he is Lord (everyone will know and believe that some day) but that he is my Lord. Many of his disciples, which left everything and followed him for 3+ years didn't even believe in him at the time. That should tell us something.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.​

Travis
 
Member
Tulsa love of the truth of his word is this what cleanses us ? There fore being made clean from his word , but what if some things we believe about his word isn't true , that we believe what a friend, love one, or even a preacher told us ?
Why would you seek understanding of God from a man?
Man is fallible and none are righteous not one True understanding comes from revelation and revelation of God


peter
 
Loyal
Believing in Jesus Christ is a supernatural work of God. It means truly and utterly believing in ones heart that Jesus Christ is exactly who he says he is, and that he shed his blood not just for people in general (though he surely did) but specifically for me. To believe in Jesus Christ is not to believe that he is Lord (everyone will know and believe that some day) but that he is my Lord. Many of his disciples, which left everything and followed him for 3+ years didn't even believe in him at the time. That should tell us something.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.​

Travis
Whether He is your Lord, or the Lord of the Masses, He is Lord. The fact that you have chosen Him to be your Lord. What does that mean?
I genuinely ask sincerely to know what "Jesus is my Lord" means to you. Indeed what would it mean for any man to be your Lord?
 
Member
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." I Corinthians 2: 14-16

Man in the spiritual state of the natural man does not discern that which is spiritual. He may discern that which is of the flesh, of his heart and mind.

There are important verses right before I Corinthians 2: 14 which say that the Holy Spirit can teach us spiritual things. But God must first give a person ears to hear, eyes to see and ability to receive the things of the Spirit. Otherwise, one remains in the condition of the natural man, who does not receive the things of the Spirit.

"For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
16. But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17. And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced;" Matthew 11: 13-17

People do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, that is, that which is spiritual, and they do not have ears to hear it, until God reaches down and gives them that ability to receive and hear.

"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." Matthew 13: 9-13

Christ gives to some the ability to receive the knowledge of the kingdom of heaven, but he does not give it to others.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Revelation 2: 17 Churches, from ekklesia, is used by John here to refer to local congregations, and does not try to make the Capital C Church into the Body of Christ, and make all in the Church seem to be the elect.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Philippians 2: 13

God works in us to give us the spiritual ability to become interested in the meanings of scripture, and gives us ears to hear what the Word is saying, at least on a beginning level which is not false doctrine.

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12: 2

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thessalonians 2: 10-12

Having ears to hear the Word of God is part of faith, and so is the beginning of a love for the meanings - or truth - revealed to us by scripture. For just as Paul, Peter, John and others write from revelation so more complete understanding also comes from revelation from God.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." I Corinthians 2: 12-16

Although we do not come to a full understanding of all strands of scripture at the beginning of our faith, it is not, however, a good idea to divide off in an extreme way faith from knowledge, faith from a love of the truth, and faith from God-given ability to receive the word and to be consistently interested in it. And - it is a poor idea to argue against the meanings of particular scriptures because your church does not teach these scriptures or these meanings and/or you do not like the meanings of some scriptures.

When God gives us ears to hear scriptures, and we can receive them with interest, and when we begin to develop a love of the meanings of scriptures - the truth - this is a part of being born again (John 3: 1-6) and being transformed as Romans 12: 2 says. It is part of having the mind of Christ in us. "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Colossians 1: 27 The Greek ethnesin, from ethnos, could have been translated as peoples or nations here.
 
Member
Why would you seek understanding of God from a man?
Man is fallible and none are righteous not one True understanding comes from revelation and revelation of God


peter
If you believe that someone can't learn from a man. Then why would you try to teach me this? And why would Jesus say go and teach all nations ? Matthew 28:19
 
Member
If you believe that someone can't learn from a man. Then why would you try to teach me this? And why would Jesus say go and teach all nations ? Matthew 28:19

Brother,
This is the statement that I was addressing
Tulsa love of the truth of his word is this what cleanses us ? There fore being made clean from his word , but what if some things we believe about his word isn't true , that we believe what a friend, love one, or even a preacher told us ?
Do you have a relationship with God or do you know what people tell you about Him?
Aren't we told to seek and we will find? aren't we told to ask? It seems to me that Jesus said the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth;
True understanding comes from revelation and revelation from God
.
peter
 
Member
What you posted in red is what I had posted. But if your addressing Tulsa that's fine. And yes I do know the Lord and he knows me.
Just not sure what you meant by your post.
 
Member
What you posted in red is what I had posted. But if your addressing Tulsa that's fine. And yes I do know the Lord and he knows me.
Just not sure what you meant by your post.
What I posted in red was someone expressing "what if people are wrong"...we should not trust people any further than what they say lines up with scripture no matter who they are.. we are sheep that follow The Shepard not the sheep in front of us..... This appears to be uncertainty and confusion. The God I believe in is not the God of confusion. Jesus is the truth and if that is what we are seeking He is the place to start.

peter
 
Member
Like I said I posted that, was not confused just wanted people to think about what if they believe a lie , that a friend, a love one , or even a preacher told them . Cause I have friends that would take the word of a preacher over Gods word.
 
Member
Like I said I posted that, was not confused just wanted people to think about what if they believe a lie , that a friend, a love one , or even a preacher told them . Cause I have friends that would take the word of a preacher over Gods word.
I understood what you said...... if the relationship with God existed so would spiritual discernment and the fear of falling for a lie would not. A lot of Christendom does not lead people towards a relationship with God it makes people lazy......... a lot feeling that 2 hours on Sunday constitutes a relationship with God.
peter
 
Active
Recently I have been watching sermons on youtube and came across preaching from Paul Washer. He preaches a lot about this subject, and I would encourage you guys to watch some of his sermons.
 
Member
Recently I have been watching sermons on youtube and came across preaching from Paul Washer. He preaches a lot about this subject, and I would encourage you guys to watch some of his sermons.
Amen!
Paul Washer speaks truth and preaches the gospel
.......... peter
 

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