The Wrath of God

[B-A-C]

It seems the message of many churches today, is simply... "God is love". ( 1 Jn 4:8; )
Well yes, God is love. But is that all He is? Simply an emotion?

God does love us.... all of us. He loves even the un-saved. Rom 5:8;

But just because he loves us, does that mean there is no judgment, no wrath?

God is love, but He is also righteousness, judgment, anger, and yes even wrath.

The wrath of God is mentioned over 120 times in the old Testament.
This is the God who caused the flood that wiped out most of mankind.
The same God that caused fire and brimstone to rain down on Sodom and Gomorrah.
The same God that killed the first born sons of the Egyptians.
The same God that caused the Egyptian soldiers to drown in the red sea.
The same God that caused the walls of Jericho to fall upon its inhabitants.
The same God that killed 23,000 idolaters in one day.

Those who disobey God will face his judgment and wrath.
Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7; John 3:36; Rom 1:18; Rom 2:5; Rom 2:8; Rom 3:5;
Rom 5:9; Rom 9:22; Rom 13:4-5; Eph 5:6; Col 3:6; 1 Thess 1:10; Heb 3:11; Heb 4:3; etc...
not to mention Revelation
Rev 14:10; Rev 15:1; Rev 15:7; Rev 16:1; Rev 16:19; Rev 19:15; etc...

The wrath of God is mentioned over 30 times in the New Testament.
The same God who caused Ananias and Sapphira to die.
The same God that caused Herod to be eaten by worms.
The same God who cast all who's names are not written in the Book of Life into the Lake of Fire.

Yes God has love, mercy, patience and forgiveness.
But one day His patience will end. Forgiveness is for the repentant.
Mercy is for the saved.

The rest of the world will find out what it means to defy the God of all creation.

 

[KingJ]

The same God that caused Herod to be eaten by worms.

Herod was struck down and then eaten by worms. He was not given a slow and cruel death Acts 12:23.

 

[KingJ]

But one day His patience will end.

I don't see His patience ending. Tolerating the evil in His space / universe for all eternity points to continued love and patience.

We assume a lot with the ''lake of fire''. Why can't it be like this? Top 10 Best Island Holidays with Volcanoes | Volcanic Islands | Best Islands top 10 | Where to Holiday

Interesting how quickly we assume a good God can make a terrible hell. You need a terrible God to make a terrible hell.

 

[KingJ]

It seems the message of many churches today, is simply... "God is love". ( 1 Jn 4:8; )
Well yes, God is love. But is that all He is? Simply an emotion?

God does love us.... all of us. He loves even the un-saved. Rom 5:8;

The message is God is love. Full-stop. Much like He is light with no darkness at all 1 John 1:5.

The actual issue is that people think that since God is love, He always understands their sin / will automatically forgive them. The devil teaches this. ''We are all en route to heaven''. The devil will never say we are en route to hell. The focus needs to be on us and our actual love for the Lord. He is love, we are not.

God does not anger like we imagine. God is not driven by any wicked thoughts. God is impassible.

 

[Chad]

Interesting how quickly we assume a good God can make a terrible hell. You need a terrible God to make a terrible hell.

God did create hell and He's not a terrible GOD. Do you actually read the bible? Hell is real, eternal and GOD is eternal, holy.

Some relevant threads on this topic for the audience viewing this thread

Rejecting God Because of Hell Is Illogical
How Can I Not Go To Hell?
A loving God would never send anyone to hell
How is Hell a fair punishment for sin?
Eternal Hell

 

[KingJ]

God did create hell and He's not a terrible GOD. Do you actually read the bible? Hell is real, eternal and GOD is eternal, holy.

Some relevant threads on this topic for the audience viewing this thread

Rejecting God Because of Hell Is Illogical
How Can I Not Go To Hell?
A loving God would never send anyone to hell
How is Hell a fair punishment for sin?
Eternal Hell

It is because I do actually read my bible that I disagree with the popular Dante inferno's type of view of hell. David says give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. Not give thanks and hope God is good. Or give thanks because God loves you now but is a mental case on punishment.

I am not arguing hell's existence or the fact that people will be their for eternity. I am disputing God's input. That belief that God and us will be... ok with people being burnt alive for all eternity.

God has never tortured any of His enemies. Yet we suddenly imagine God doing it to His enemies for all eternity? Really? Torture is cruel. It is impossible to spin torture into a good God...and we will approve? Really? You will approve of someone being burnt alive for all eternity?

I strongly reject that notion and am more then willing to discuss any scripture you think paints that picture of God. A cruel hell is an assumption from false teachers. Serve God or be tortured for eternity. Please man, it makes Christianity and God seem very hypocritical / wicked.

We need to understand clearly that God is incapable of an evil action. God's '''''wrath''''' is purely separation from Him.

Scripture says in Rev 14:11 that the smoke of their torment will ascend forever. Smoke of their torment. This is their torment. Torment they have brought upon themselves. Not God's torment. A rapist will likely fully grasp who he is, pain he caused others and the loss from not reigning with Christ. Rom 2:6 and all other scripture on God being a fair and righteous judge paints the picture that if there is suffering from God's doing it will be temporal.

Humans invented the Geneva convention for treatment of enemies. Food on par with your soldiers. Free hospital. Access to bank accounts. Regular family visits. Sporting facilities. You believe God can't do likewise? or better? We can't? We will have no say?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

It is because I do actually read my bible that I disagree with the popular Dante inferno's type of view of hell. David says give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. Not give thanks and hope God is good. Or give thanks because God loves you now but is a mental case on punishment.

I am not arguing hell's existence or the fact that people will be their for eternity. I am disputing God's input. That belief that God and us will be... ok with people being burnt alive for all eternity.

God has never tortured any of His enemies. Yet we suddenly imagine God doing it to His enemies for all eternity? Really? Torture is cruel. It is impossible to spin torture into a good God...and we will approve? Really? You will approve of someone being burnt alive for all eternity?

I strongly reject that notion and am more then willing to discuss any scripture you think paints that picture of God. A cruel hell is an assumption from false teachers. Serve God or be tortured for eternity. Please man, it makes Christianity and God seem very hypocritical / wicked.

We need to understand clearly that God is incapable of an evil action. God's '''''wrath''''' is purely separation from Him.

Scripture says in Rev 14:11 that the smoke of their torment will ascend forever. Smoke of their torment. This is their torment. Torment they have brought upon themselves. Not God's torment. A rapist will likely fully grasp who he is, pain he caused others and the loss from not reigning with Christ. Rom 2:6 and all other scripture on God being a fair and righteous judge paints the picture that if there is suffering from God's doing it will be temporal.

Humans invented the Geneva convention for treatment of enemies. Food on par with your soldiers. Free hospital. Access to bank accounts. Regular family visits. Sporting facilities. You believe God can't do likewise? or better? We can't? We will have no say?

Brother God created Hell for satan and the angels that followed him.
God made a way for all of us to spend eternity with Him and not hell. We make this choice.
So any man sent to hell it is from his own choice or lack of choosing God.

God has been giving time for All Men To Be Saved......Time is running out and grace will be too.
This idea of yours that God is not evil so He could not create such an evil hell is not even according to His written word. You say you read His word and this is how you come to your views.... perhaps a better learning of how to rightly divide scripture might help. Just because David and others have said God is a Good God does not mean He did not create hell and to be thrown into the lake of fire. By doing so does not make God evil or God would have to be evil to do so. Learn bro learn

 

[KingJ]

Brother God created Hell for satan and the angels that followed him.
God made a way for all of us to spend eternity with Him and not hell. We make this choice.
So any man sent to hell it is from his own choice or lack of choosing God.

God has been giving time for All Men To Be Saved......Time is running out and grace will be too.
This idea of yours that God is not evil so He could not create such an evil hell is not even according to His written word. You say you read His word and this is how you come to your views.... perhaps a better learning of how to rightly divide scripture might help. Just because David and others have said God is a Good God does not mean He did not create hell and to be thrown into the lake of fire. By doing so does not make God evil or God would have to be evil to do so. Learn bro learn

Jim, have you ever heard someone scream in pain for 20 minutes? An hour? When you have experienced that you will understand that whoever is behind that is nothing but pure evil.

We don't apply our minds to the wild statements we make.

Stalin tortured enemies. Saddam tortured enemies. Hitler tortured enemies. Nero tortured enemies. The West in WW2 and most today follow the Geneva convention on treatment of enemies of war.

Now you would group God (that is good, love, light with no darkness....AT ALL 1 John 1:5) in the same bracket as Nero and all the others.....? I am at fault because I group God with the sane? Those who don't repay wicked for wicked?

Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I watched the 'Oscar Pretorius' trial and saw him doing this at almost every court session. Many preach this as though Jesus said 'there will be screaming and people having their skin burnt off''.

God is good. We are wicked. We are choosing not to be with God. God honoring that request is His wrath that He is trying to save us from. The worst we can expect in hell is temporary suffering with eternal torment from our own doing. When I say temporal I mean temporal. As in max 10 minutes of hot fire for the worst of the worst. Have you ever seen someone burnt at the stake? Torment as in Oscar's case.

It is quite sick how we preach hell to get converts. It is like me saying to a nice lady, ''marry me or go hungry and die''. The wise fear God because they know it is better to be with Him then to not be with Him. IE He is a good husband. Not because He will get demons to poke you with forks or fire to burn you for all eternity. I think many Christians will be happy with marrying Nero. As long as he is in charge right?

Learn bro learn .

 

[KingJ]

Brother God created Hell for satan and the angels that followed him.

Yes. The same devil He politely spoke to in the wilderness. Allowed to tempt Him on not just one but three occasions.

The same fallen angels who had their request to be cast into pigs honored. When God loves pigs.

 

[KingJ]

Rejecting God Because of Hell Is Illogical
How Can I Not Go To Hell?
A loving God would never send anyone to hell
How is Hell a fair punishment for sin?
Eternal Hell

I disagree with some of the OP's of these threads. The first one deals with believing in God as though believing in God is the issue James 2:19. Accepting God is the issue. Now we would not accept God if He was cruel and a hypocrite. When we imagine God torturing His enemy He becomes guilty of not loving His enemy, when He tells us to love ours James 5:44. Now who here will torture their enemy and then profess to love them? The other says our human perspective is warped and cannot grasp fair punishment. That is simply not true. Every working brain knows the difference between torture, fair treatment and mercy. That is why we are accountable for our actions. Our minds are able to excuse us from judgment 1 Cor 11:31 and the very thing we use to make a decision to follow Jesus. Paul says we will judge angels and reign with Jesus. There is so much conflicting scripture that is not being considered.

 

[KingJ]

You guys are trying to defend God on hell and His wrath, that is admirable. But you are having to go to the end of the earth to do it or use very illogical reasoning.

We cannot escape the fact that cruel hell = cruel God. There is no escaping it. Cruel hell does not equal holy God. Cruel hell does not equal good God.

We do not need to defend the truth. The truth is good. Just preach it as is.

Truth is that hell exists and is a bad place + God is good and loves His enemies = no torture from God in hell. God will do better then the Geneva convention to His enemies.

 

[B-A-C]

We cannot escape the fact that cruel hell = cruel God. There is no escaping it. Cruel hell does not equal holy God. Cruel hell does not equal good God.

You are of course... entitled to your opinion. But punishment doesn't equal cruelty or unrighteousness. Rom 3:5;

God punishes. It's scripture.
Matt 25:46; Heb 10:29; 2 Pet 2:9; Jude 1:7;

There is torment in the lake of fire.... forever night and day. It's scripture.
Rev 14:11; Rev 20:10;

The wrath of God is upon some people. It's scripture.
John 3:36; Rom 1:18; Rom 2:5; Rom 9:22;

Let no one deceive you... the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:6;

There will come a day when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. It's scripture.
Rev 15:7; Rev 16:1; Rev 16:19; Rev 19:15;

The wrath (and anger) of God will cause some people to be "tormented" with fire and brimstone. It's scripture.
Rev 14:10-11;
And their torment will be forever. It's scripture.

Scripture is the truth.

The demons know that God can/will torment them. Matt 8:29; Luke 8:28;
Does that make Him cruel?

The rich man was in Hades, he was in torment. Luke 16:23; Luke 16:28; It's scripture.

People will be tormented forever.... Rev 14:10; Ref 14:11; Rev 20:10; It's scripture.

Rom 3:5; But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
Rom 3:6; May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

God inflicts wrath, that doesn't make Him unrighteous. In fact in order for Him to be a just God, He must inflict justice.

The soul does not die... Isa 66:24; Mark 9:48; it burns with an unquenchable fire.

 

[Bendito]

Well yes, God is love. But is that all He is? Simply an emotion?

Hmmmm The emotion of love is fleeting. But love is not a noun. It is not an emotion, a feeling. Not at all...Love is a verb...It's an action word...God is Love He demonstrates love always....The gives and gives and gives.....

But just because he loves us, does that mean there is no judgment, no wrath?

Not for his kids there isn't..Romans 8 (CJB)
8 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death.

You are of course... entitled to your opinion. But punishment doesn't equal cruelty or unrighteousness. Rom 3:5;

God punishes. It's scripture.
Matt 25:46; Heb 10:29; 2 Pet 2:9; Jude 1:7;

There is torment in the lake of fire.... forever night and day. It's scripture.
Rev 14:11; Rev 20:10;

The wrath of God is upon some people. It's scripture.
John 3:36; Rom 1:18; Rom 2:5; Rom 9:22;

Let no one deceive you... the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:6;

There will come a day when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. It's scripture.
Rev 15:7; Rev 16:1; Rev 16:19; Rev 19:15;

The wrath (and anger) of God will cause some people to be "tormented" with fire and brimstone. It's scripture.
Rev 14:10-11;
And their torment will be forever. It's scripture.

Scripture is the truth.

The demons know that God can/will torment them. Matt 8:29; Luke 8:28;
Does that make Him cruel?

The rich man was in Hades, he was in torment. Luke 16:23; Luke 16:28; It's scripture.

People will be tormented forever.... Rev 14:10; Ref 14:11; Rev 20:10; It's scripture.

Rom 3:5; But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
Rom 3:6; May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

God inflicts wrath, that doesn't make Him unrighteous. In fact in order for Him to be a just God, He must inflict justice.

The soul does not die... Isa 66:24; Mark 9:48; it burns with an unquenchable fire.

One question here....Is it God doing the tormenting? Or is it the knowing that they are forever separated from God, locked up in fire and never the slightest hope of escape...? Think of this....If there were no hell (which there is) A man dies not wanting God in his life....Where does he go? No hell, no heaven for him because he does not want that.....Just the separation from God would be hell in itself....God is life, so he has no life...God is Light....So he's stuck in eternal darkness....God is love....so he is alone for eternity because he rejected love ....Yup That would be hell...Where is the torment in this scenario? Lacking everything pertaining to life, lacking all light, lacking company.....

 

[B-A-C]

Not for his kids there isn't..Romans 8 (CJB)
8 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation

No argument. I was speaking of the un-saved.

 

[B-A-C]

One question here....Is it God doing the tormenting?

What does Rom 3:5; say in your Bible?

 

[B-A-C]

It seems in movies and television, whenever there is a fire, it's usually depicted with bright glowing flames.
I've seen pictures of "hell" (at least someone's interpretation of what they think it is) that look like
flame covered rocks and rivers of lava. I suppose it could be this way, I'm no expert, and I've never been there.
But I can tell you, as a person who has been in dozens of house and building fires, it's usually pitch black
inside them. You literally can not see your hand in front of your face much of the time.

The "outer darkness" may not mean that there isn't a fire there.

Matt 13:42; Matt 13:50; Matt 18:8;

If Jesus is God, and Jesus does the judging... ( Matt 25:41; )
and it is Jesus who decides who goes into the fire, is Jesus inflicting torture? Is He inflicting pain?

Was it God who caused fire and brimstone to rain down on Sodom and Gomorrah? ( Luke 17:29; )
Did God inflict pain? Does that make Him unrighteous?

John 15:6; Luke 3:9; Heb 10:27;

Is it God who causes the fury of fire to consume His adversaries? ( Heb 10:27; )
God Himelf is a consuming fire Heb 12:29;

Did God cause of of the plagues in Egypt during the time of Moses.. (or was it just Moses).
Were boils on their skin painful? Exod 9:8-12;
Was death of the firstborn painful to them? Exod 11:1-12;

What about the sores in Rev 16:2; what causes this? Why is it called the wrath of God?

Society today has forgotten what justice is. They have no clue what righteousness is.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Yes. The same devil He politely spoke to in the wilderness. Allowed to tempt Him on not just one but three occasions.

The same fallen angels who had their request to be cast into pigs honored. When God loves pigs.

Brother how do you come up with these things.

 

[KingJ]

Brother how do you come up with these things.

The real question is, how do you not see these things? Just read scripture as is and use common sense when doing so. I believe it is because you read scripture with preconceived ideas. No offence to you but you seem to have it in your mind that ''God hates the devil''. Hence you are not able to read scripture for what it is. I hope you will allow 1 John 1:5 to fill your thoughts on the subject of hell. We serve such a good God! :thumbsup:

 

[KingJ]

1. You are of course... entitled to your opinion. But punishment doesn't equal cruelty or unrighteousness. Rom 3:5;

2. God punishes. It's scripture.
Matt 25:46; Heb 10:29; 2 Pet 2:9; Jude 1:7;

3. There is torment in the lake of fire.... forever night and day. It's scripture.
Rev 14:11; Rev 20:10;

4. The wrath of God is upon some people. It's scripture.
John 3:36; Rom 1:18; Rom 2:5; Rom 9:22;

5. Let no one deceive you... the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:6;

6. There will come a day when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. It's scripture.
Rev 15:7; Rev 16:1; Rev 16:19; Rev 19:15;

7. The wrath (and anger) of God will cause some people to be "tormented" with fire and brimstone. It's scripture.
Rev 14:10-11;
And their torment will be forever. It's scripture.

8. Scripture is the truth.

9. The demons know that God can/will torment them. Matt 8:29; Luke 8:28;
Does that make Him cruel?

10. The rich man was in Hades, he was in torment. Luke 16:23; Luke 16:28; It's scripture.

11. People will be tormented forever.... Rev 14:10; Ref 14:11; Rev 20:10; It's scripture.

Rom 3:5; But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
Rom 3:6; May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

12. God inflicts wrath, that doesn't make Him unrighteous. In fact in order for Him to be a just God, He must inflict justice.

13. The soul does not die... Isa 66:24; Mark 9:48; it burns with an unquenchable fire.

1. That verse is just saying that God is entitled to give His wrath. Note how Paul is speaking in human terms. Note then that the bible is given to humans. Then note that God expects us to use our human minds to read and discern the bible that is given to us in human vernacular. Then note that a working brain will not ever in a million years believe any scripture on God's goodness or love if He tortures us in hell. Punishment does not have to be torture. It can be banishment and temporal suffering. It can be Geneva convention treatment. Quite shocking that Christians actually believe God is on par with Stalin / Hitler / Nero / Saddam / ISIS ....and then say He is good / entitled to give this type of wrath. Absolutely shocking discernment.

One-day you and I will judge angels. I feel sorry for all those judged by people who think eternal torture is a fitting punishment for ....merely having sin...... This is common sense fail. This is Christianity fail.

2. Agreed.
3. Agreed. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Exactly what Oscar Pretorius did from regret before he went to prison.
4. Agreed.
5. Agreed.
6. Agreed.
7. That is probably the hardest verse for me to deal with and the one that bats most in your ''eternal cruelty' favor .

I ask that you do two things. a. Picture that verse. b. Read other scripture with it.

a. Picture the setting. Not only God is watching them, but all the angels too. IE God has nothing to hide. It is very possible that we will see it too as a result. Now if God was doing anything unfair / wicked do you not think He would want to hide it? We picture the absolute worst. Literal human flesh burning / being ripped off / blood gushing / screams at the top of their voices.....and this continues for all eternity....and we have nothing to say on it....? Have you ever watched someone being tortured? Please be honest. I can give you some links. Now, God, Jesus, all the angels and us are ok with watching this for all eternity. God makes us all sick, wicked and twisted in heaven? We are assuming too much and not grasping that God often speaks what sounds like worse case scenarios as He is speaking from His vantage point. I have already given you and others many examples of this which have gone completely ignored. Adam and Eve shall DIE, have SUFFERING and PAIN.....yet earth and the lives they had was really not that bad. God was kind enough to give them strawberries in their SUFFERING AND PAIN. Oh and also an amazing body that can deal with and recover from pain.

b. Rom 2:6. Throughout scripture God has always given a punishment that fits the crime. It is what a fair judge does. Now if everyone burns in the same lava pit for the same amount of time...Houston we have a problem with all scripture. God is changing His spots 100%.

Think on Rom 9.How it has Calvinists completely SOLD on the idea that God is partial / shows favoritism. Now we can forgive them for believing that as Rom 9 does literally state X and Y. So how do we counter Rom 9? Well we tell them to read the rest of scripture. You have to throw out all scripture on God's goodness and love...to believe God can be cruel for eternity...oh and I guess we all need to be in for a SHOCKING surprise that God is actually evil.

Just answer these questions DEAD honestly. i. Does God tell us to love our enemy in James 5:44? ii. Is the devil God's enemy? iii. Is God a hypocrite? iv. Would you ever say someone loves their enemy if they torture their enemy? v. Are you ok with serving a God that tortures His enemy?

8. Amen. All of it. Not just one or two verses. Hermeneutics!!! We need other scripture to shine on Rom 4:10.

9. Torture does make God cruel, yes. The demons would have had something to say if their torment en route was going to be cruel and excessively unfair. Interesting that when given the opportunity to speak to Jesus they said NOTHING about it being unfair, cruel and barbaric.

Also very interesting that God (who surely must HATE and detest these wicked abominations, as He is going to torture them for eternity) has done no torment / torture whatsoever since their fall.

10. The rich man could talk to Abraham. The rich man wanted a drop of water to cure his torment. If my flesh is burning off (which is what you expect form sitting in lava) I would ask for more then just water. Watch the Oscar Pretorius trial. You will see him asking for a lot of water when he was crying with regret.

11. Agreed. God does not make mistakes. A wolf is a wolf and a wolf cannot live with Lambs. Just being a wolf / and a wolf with other wolves is seen as torment by a wise lamb.

12. Yes, justice. Quite shocking what some imagine is justice.

13. Agreed. Ever wonder why God keeps the wicked alive for eternity when He can annihilate them? It is just shocking that our first guess is that it pleases Him to see them suffer for eternity . All sinners are currently in torment. They are happy in it.

 

[KingJ]

1. Was it God who caused fire and brimstone to rain down on Sodom and Gomorrah? ( Luke 17:29; ) Did God inflict pain? Does that make Him unrighteous?

2. Did God cause of of the plagues in Egypt during the time of Moses.. (or was it just Moses).
Were boils on their skin painful? Exod 9:8-12;
Was death of the firstborn painful to them? Exod 11:1-12;

3. What about the sores in Rev 16:2; what causes this? Why is it called the wrath of God?

4. Society today has forgotten what justice is. They have no clue what righteousness is.

Please see post # 8 Hell and Christianity