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The Trinity : revisted

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Loyal
It seems most mainstream Christian denominations believe in the Trinity.
A "triune" God. One one God, but with three distinct parts. The Father, The Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.
Which brings this down to the point of the deity of Jesus. Jesus is God.

Can you really be a Christian, if you don't believe in the deity of Jesus?

John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2; He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being

All things came into being through Jesus. Apart from Him (Jesus) nothing has ever been created.

Gen 1:1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

If God created everything, and Jesus created everything. That only leaves one conclusion.
Jesus is God.

Col 1:15; He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17; He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Col 1:18; He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

Again we see that Jesus created everything. The heavens and the earth. "all things have been created through Him".

Is it a requirement to believe Jesus is God in order to be saved?
Col 1:19; For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
 
Loyal
Moses asked God. Who should I tell people you are?

Exod 3:13; Then Moses said to God, "Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"
Exod 3:14; God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

God is "I AM".

It's interesting that Jesus said the same thing.

John 8:58; Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

Of course Abraham was a couple of thousand years before the New Testament, but yet... Jesus existed before Abraham did.

In fact Jesus said He saw Satan fall from heaven.

Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.

Jesus has always existed. He has always been.

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Have you ever wondered.... why did God say say "OUR" image. Could this be the Father and the Son... even then.
 
Loyal
Isa 7:14; "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
Isa 7:15; "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.

In one of the major prophecies of Jesus. We find out His name means "Immanuel". That's a curious thing. What does this mean?
We also finds out He eats curds and honey :smile:

Matt 1:23; "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

Immanuel means - "God with us". Not just almost God, or half-God, or part God. But "GOD"... with us.

Col 2:9; For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

The fullness of "Deity"... what is deity? Someone who is a divine being. Someone who is God. God came in bodily form. Not half of deity, not part deity, but the "fullness" of deity.

John 1:1; says the Word was God.

John 1:14; And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:14; says God (the Word) became flesh and dwelt among us. God in bodily form.

In another prophecy of Jesus we see...

Isa 9:6; For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

His name will be called... "Mighty God". Immanuel - God with us.
 
Active
If Jesus did not proclaim to be deity He would not have been crucified John 19:7.

So the belief in the trinity and the cross go together. You cannot have one without the other.
 
Active
Again we see that Jesus created everything. The heavens and the earth. "all things have been created through Him".
Here is yet more scriptures on the divinity of Jesus and His role in creation ...

Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
She stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
She cries at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
They are all plain to him that understands, and right to them that find knowledge.
Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that hears me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso finds me finds life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sins against me wrongs his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Proverbs 8:1-36
 
Moderator
Staff Member
If Jesus did not proclaim to be deity He would not have been crucified John 19:7.
You are right that he would not have been brought before Pilate, but the reason he was crucified by Pilate was for being King and of cause his fear of insurrection!!! Pilate was Governor which means a politician!!!!

As a result of this Pilate made efforts to release Him, but the Jews cried out saying, "If you release this Man, you are no friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself out to be a king opposes Caesar." 13 Therefore when Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. 14 Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold, your King!" 15 So they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar." 16 So he then handed Him over to them to be crucified. John 19:12-16

YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Member
Here is yet more scriptures on the divinity of Jesus and His role in creation ...

Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
She stands in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
She cries at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
They are all plain to him that understands, and right to them that find knowledge.
Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.
My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
Blessed is the man that hears me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
For whoso finds me finds life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
But he that sins against me wrongs his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Proverbs 8:1-36
Proverbs 8:22 is talking about the Holy Spirit . Which also helps to substantiate that before the beginning only The Lord or Ancient of Days Existed

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
 
Member
Adding;

Creation through the Word yes; But of The Father, who the son said he came in the name of, and who the son said is one Lord, and who the son said is the only true God. It was after he died and resurrected that he said plainly "or is written" that his God and Father is Our God and Father;

The Son was making himself the Holy One/ Son of God, and mediator between Abraham and God, and Moses and God, and Lord of David, but he never made himself to be The Lord our God ; that was interpreted by man. Further proof in Judges Chapter 13 Jdg 13:1-25
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Being made flesh Joh 1:14 is an extension of Mar 15:28 & Isa 53:12 so is troublesome if trying to justify why The Word was God by using Joh 1:14.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly being called the name of your Master or being given authority by your Master does not make you your Master himself but a representation of your Master .

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Heb 1:3
-----------------------------------------------------------

1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
--------------------------------------------------------

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Notice many overlook verse 20 .

It pleased the Father himself that in him should all fulness dwell becuase The Father is himself and The Son is himself and we are ourselves but joined to the Lord our God who is one Lord we are one spirit.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
------------------------------------------

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Heb 11:6
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
Adding;

Creation through the Word yes; But of The Father, who the son said he came in the name of, and who the son said is one Lord, and who the son said is the only true God. It was after he died and resurrected that he said plainly "or is written" that his God and Father is Our God and Father;

The Son was making himself the Holy One/ Son of God, and mediator between Abraham and God, and Moses and God, and Lord of David, but he never made himself to be The Lord our God ; that was interpreted by man. Further proof in Judges Chapter 13 Jdg 13:1-25
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Being made flesh Joh 1:14 is an extension of Mar 15:28 & Isa 53:12 so is troublesome if trying to justify why The Word was God by using Joh 1:14.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly being called the name of your Master or being given authority by your Master does not make you your Master himself but a representation of your Master .

Luk 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Heb 1:3
-----------------------------------------------------------

1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
--------------------------------------------------------

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Notice many overlook verse 20 .

It pleased the Father himself that in him should all fulness dwell becuase The Father is himself and The Son is himself and we are ourselves but joined to the Lord our God who is one Lord we are one spirit.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
------------------------------------------

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Heb 11:6
Ah The arrogance of ignorance! Some people know only enough to be dangerous. You NEED the Holy Spirit to teach you or you only get lost
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jesus IS God. Right here in the Word...
Now ask the Holy Spirit about it
 
Member
@Bendito

Wisdom or not; Ignorance or not Deu 6:4 is Deu 6:4 "First part of the first and greatest commandment"
To those that cleave to Begotten Hebrew; God is One Lord.

One God / One Lord = 1/1 = 1= 100% above all and thru all and in us all ; of whom are all things and we in him; the only true invisible God who does not change.
Eph 4:6 & John 17:3
--------------------------------------------

One God / Three Lords = 1/3 = .33 = 33%

Numbers don't lie!!!
----------------------------------------------------------

I suspect You see God how the nations do. Psa 96:5

I suspect you see someone else that came in his own name and not Joh 5:43

I suspect you see the Son as God and refuse to believe he was following protocols "will" of the only true God.

I suspect you see the mediator between Man and God as Mediator between Man and himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My suspicions is:

Trinity & Democracy = Reading "not fundamental"

But

Hierarchy & Unity = Reading Comprehension "Truly Fundamental"

----------------------------------------------------

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Carefully go over 1 John Chapter 5 every iota then Matthew Chapter 28

emphasis on

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Read what you want to Read Comprehend what you want to Comprehend.

The Word is The Son of God because he is the firstborn and beginning of Creation of God and came out of God in the beginning. That is why The same was with God in the beginning. John testified / bare record of him being the Son of God along with no man having seeing God at any time with his only begotten Son declaring him.

I can make peace but your doctrine can't be respected. " respectfully; it just is what is is"

Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
@Bendito

Wisdom or not; Ignorance or not Deu 6:4 is Deu 6:4 "First part of the first and greatest commandment"
To those that cleave to Begotten Hebrew; God is One Lord.

One God / One Lord = 1/1 = 1= 100% above all and thru all and in us all ; of whom are all things and we in him; the only true invisible God who does not change.
Eph 4:6 & John 17:3
--------------------------------------------

One God / Three Lords = 1/3 = .33 = 33%

Numbers don't lie!!!
----------------------------------------------------------

I suspect You see God how the nations do. Psa 96:5

I suspect you see someone else that came in his own name and not Joh 5:43

I suspect you see the Son as God and refuse to believe he was following protocols "will" of the only true God.

I suspect you see the mediator between Man and God as Mediator between Man and himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My suspicions is:

Trinity & Democracy = Reading "not fundamental"

But

Hierarchy & Unity = Reading Comprehension "Truly Fundamental"

----------------------------------------------------

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Carefully go over 1 John Chapter 5 every iota then Matthew Chapter 28

emphasis on

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Read what you want to Read Comprehend what you want to Comprehend.

The Word is The Son of God because he is the firstborn and beginning of Creation of God and came out of God in the beginning. That is why The same was with God in the beginning. John testified / bare record of him being the Son of God along with no man having seeing God at any time with his only begotten Son declaring him.

I can make peace but your doctrine can't be respected. " respectfully; it just is what is is"

Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Forget numbers boy. We're looking at the Word.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

(A:vi, S: v) 4 “Sh’ma, Yisra’el! Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad [Hear, Isra’el! Adonai our God, Adonai is one]; 5 and you are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, all your being and all your resources.
The name Adonai Eloheinu is PLURAL, indicating more than one, not singular....You know just enough to make you dangerous to yourself and others
 
Member
@Bendito

One Lord is singular and not plural or many. That is why he made sure he slipped it in. Mark 12:28-30 with Deu 6:4 being first part of first greatest commandment.
-----------------------------------------------
One Elohim / One Lord= 1/1 = 1

Three Elohim / One Lord = 3/1 = 3
Two Elohim / One Lord= 2/1 = 2

Numbers still don't lie.
-------------------------------------

Elohim is plural because he is all encompassing but is still One Lord as written and One God as written. The simple does not have to be made complicated and intellectualized. Elohhim is never Elohims or Gods when referring to the only true God of Heaven and Earth; The Ancient of Days who is the Most High and himself is One which is singular. Himself is singluar. Lord is singular. His will is singular. His authority is singular. However if you say you worship many gods/ idols, or such " Psa 96:5 " then plainly say so.

Does God of Abraham need to be converted to multiple gods, to substantiate your urge and need for their to be a Trinity and Democracy instead of a Hierarchy and Unity?
-----------------------------------------------------------


Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]Father,[/COLOR] the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God[/COLOR], and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]that we may know him that is true[/COLOR], and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]This is the true God,[/COLOR] and eternal life.

Messiah words after resurrection:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God[/COLOR].

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. [/COLOR]

2Co 5:18 [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself[/COLOR] by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

1Jn 4:12 [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]No man hath seen God at any time[/COLOR]. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)] Jesus is the Son of God[/COLOR], God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
--------------------

Definition of PLURAL
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
@Bendito

One Lord is singular and not plural or many. That is why he made sure he slipped it in. Mark 12:28-30 with Deu 6:4 being first part of first greatest commandment.
-----------------------------------------------
One Elohim / One Lord= 1/1 = 1

Three Elohim / One Lord = 3/1 = 3
Two Elohim / One Lord= 2/1 = 2

Numbers still don't lie.
-------------------------------------

Elohim is plural because he is all encompassing but is still One Lord as written and One God as written. The simple does not have to be made complicated and intellectualized. Elohhim is never Elohims or Gods when referring to the only true God of Heaven and Earth; The Ancient of Days who is the Most High and himself is One which is singular. Himself is singluar. Lord is singular. His will is singular. His authority is singular. However if you say you worship many gods/ idols, or such " Psa 96:5 " then plainly say so.

Does God of Abraham need to be converted to multiple gods, to substantiate your urge and need for their to be a Trinity and Democracy instead of a Hierarchy and Unity?
-----------------------------------------------------------


Joh 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]Father,[/COLOR] the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Joh 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Joh 17:3 And [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God[/COLOR], and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]that we may know him that is true[/COLOR], and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]This is the true God,[/COLOR] and eternal life.

Messiah words after resurrection:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God[/COLOR].

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. [/COLOR]

2Co 5:18 [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself[/COLOR] by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

1Jn 4:12 [COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]No man hath seen God at any time[/COLOR]. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)] Jesus is the Son of God[/COLOR], God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
--------------------

Definition of PLURAL
You should be a lawyer Ivar...You're more interested in facts than you are of the truth.
 
Member
@Bendito

The Facts contradict the Truth?

Is all good though; because the increase will be of the Heavenly Father. :smile:
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Pray to the only true God that i receive discernment to further break down the birds and the bees to adults when it comes to the seed of David and The Word coming into the flesh of men.
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Also make sure milk or honey added to the collection plate.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
@Bendito

The Facts contradict the Truth?

Is all good though; because the increase will be of the Heavenly Father. :smile:
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Pray to the only true God that i receive discernment to further break down the birds and the bees to adults when it comes to the seed of David and The Word coming into the flesh of men.
-------------------------------------------------------

Also make sure milk or honey added to the collection plate.
LOL Facts do often contradict truth....There is truth and there is TRUTH. Gods Word is truth and it trumps other truths.
 
Member
This is a problem all three mainstream versions of Christianity have, which I have not seen in any other religion.

They all require that a believer hold two blatantly contradictory statements to be true.

There is a reason so many spin-off movements, sects and cults abandon the trinity or abandon monotheism. It saves them from having to abandon logic.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
One God / Three Lords = 1/3 = .33 = 33%

Numbers don't lie!!!
Numbers don't lie, but how people use them do!
Is our God a number that He should be so defined?
The Jews of the day left no doubt who Jesus proclaimed He is.
They didn't justify the impossibility of it, but put Him to death for it, for they knew exactly what He was saying!
The worst part of this is that were you to have been there you would have sided with them!!!!!!

It doesn't require you to believe, because until you're in His presence you won't believe, if even then! You rely on your own logic, while at the same time put aside anyone elses.

You are only one, but your belief is legion in the world today.
Not for it's truth, but for it's partial truth.

When Scripture speaks of a falling away, I am beginning to see that it is a falling away from the truth!

I would go on, but to what end? You will only believe what you want to believe, which of course could be said of me as well.
So, I will leave it to my Lord, my Savior, my God Jesus Christ.
 
Member
If you want to say that the Son is fully God, the Father is fully God and the Spirit is fully God, and also say that each one is separate from the other in terms of their each having their own centre of consciousness, you have three Gods, i.e. a polytheism.
If you want to call these three Gods one, you have a contradiction.
If you want to call these three Gods one something else, e.g. one Godhead, you remove the contradiction but you have a polytheism.

If you want to say you have one God, you cannot have a trinity.

The simplest way to retain a monotheism is to do what about half of the early church did and not treat either the Son or the Spirit as God.
 
Member
@David Young

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]Our Lord is The Angel of The Lord who declared The Lord or only Lord God to Israel.[/COLOR]
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Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
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[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]Even when The Angel of The Lord came in the flesh of Men; His God and Father was always The Lord God / The Lord our God who is One Lord.[/COLOR]
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After Death and Ressurection:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
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After Death and Ressurection and Ascended into Heaven:

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
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Name/Authority

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]The Son did not come in his own name. However someone else came in his own name and is hidding behind scriptures who Man has recieved.

Making himself God and Mediator between Man and the only true God who no man has seen at any time.[/COLOR]
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[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]It is a Hierarhy & Unity not a Trinity & Democracy

The Three That bear witness in Heaven ; The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are one.

The Father, His only begotten Son, and His only adopted Sons are one.[/COLOR]

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 11:11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
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[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]Our Lord does such a good job of declaring The Lord at times it can be difficult to discern between the two especially with how the bible is translated.[/COLOR]
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Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]The Lord = The Lord our God who is one Lord. " The Father"

Our Lord = His only begotten Son who he sent into flesh for us.[/COLOR]
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[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]The Son was only following protocol. "Not to diminish him but the increase is of God"[/COLOR]

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
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Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]
Not two Lords; Not three Lords;

Not one divided by three Lords or vice versa :crying:

But One Lord who the son came out of and is the firstborn and beginning of his Creation[/COLOR]


Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]Nope. Jesus is God and Mediator between Man and God. And God literally came in the flesh being numbered with the trangressors. :crying: [/COLOR]
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[COLOR=#553982]It would be interesting if the Triune/ Trinity "Nicene Creed" can be proven not to be the doctrince of the Nicolaitans or coming forth from such.[/COLOR]


Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. " Rev 2:15 "
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]Not God himself but the Son of God.[/COLOR]
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1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.


Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
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@Christ4Ever

Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]You caught me red handed. I am defining or confessing God as one Lord

Not one in three, one in many, and one in legion but One God who is One Lord and[/COLOR]

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
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[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]If 1/1 = Legion & Many and not 1 "singular" then I am unable to partake in that wine at this time.[/COLOR]
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]You caught me red handed. I am defining or confessing God as one Lord [/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]Not one in three, one in many, and one in legion but One God who is One Lord and[/COLOR]

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
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[COLOR=rgb(85, 57, 130)]If 1/1 = Legion & Many and not 1 "singular" then I am unable to partake in that wine at this time.[/COLOR]
Amen (Luke 8:17)! I will leave you with these thoughts.
All things being equal in this discussion, which I mean, is that you or I won't be changing our positions as it pertains to Jesus the Christ. Be He part of the Godhead (Col 2:9) as I believe or just part of the Hierarchy as you believe. However, there is a common ground between us. We'll both be bowing to Jesus with that same light of understanding if we haven't done so already.

We can stay as we are and still fellowship, but if not the choice will be yours, and rest assured that this will be determined by your own words. I will however leave you a link to the Statement of Faith of Talk Jesus. May you find understanding from reading it.

Talk Jesus - Statement of Faith

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
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