The Time is Past

[B-A-C]

1 Pet 4:1-5; Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of sinners , having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

This message isn't really for new Christians. If you are a new Christian this warning isn't for you.
But if you have been a Christian for several years. Maybe... "it's time".

Are you still living like you did before? Are you still associated with lust, drunkenness, carousing, and
drinking parties? Or have you given these things up? Do you keep doing these things with your "friends",
or are they "surprised you do not run with them" when they are doing these things?

Luke 13:6-9 ; And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’

We do not always bear fruit immediately when we become Christians. But there "comes a time".
When we should be. Maybe it'll take a year or two. Maybe longer. God will even help us along the way
(put fertilizer around us). But if after a few years we still aren't bearing fruit...

Is the time past for these things in your life?

 

[Sue J Love]

1 Pet 4:1-5; Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of sinners , having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

This message isn't really for new Christians. If you are a new Christian this warning isn't for you.
But if you have been a Christian for several years. Maybe... "it's time".

Are you still living like you did before? Are you still associated with lust, drunkenness, carousing, and
drinking parties? Or have you given these things up? Do you keep doing these things with your "friends",
or are they "surprised you do not run with them" when they are doing these things?

Luke 13:6-9 ; And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’

We do not always bear fruit immediately when we become Christians. But there "comes a time".
When we should be. Maybe it'll take a year or two. Maybe longer. God will even help us along the way
(put fertilizer around us). But if after a few years we still aren't bearing fruit...

Is the time past for these things in your life?

Why do you believe this is not for new Christians? Are new Christians held to a different standard than us "old" Christians? Why can't new Christians bear fruit immediately? I think sometimes they bear more fruit than older Christians who have gotten lazy and apathetic. I see nothing in this passage that would indicate that this message is for those who have known Christ longer.

I believe the message is for all Christians, new or old. When we trust in Jesus Christ to be Lord and Savior of our lives, what should take place is that, by the Spirit, we die with Christ to sin and we are raised with Christ to newness of life in Christ, "created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph. 4:24; see Ro. 6 & 8). We are turned from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so we might receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Jesus Christ (Ac. 26:16-18). We no longer walk (conduct our lives) according to our sinful flesh, but by the Spirit we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, and we are walking in the Spirit (see Ro. 8). If we say we have fellowship with God, but we continue to walk in darkness, we are liars (1 Jn. 1:6). This does not mean we are perfect or that we never sin (see 1 Jn. 2:1), but that our lifestyles should have changed from living for the flesh to living for the Spirit because we have been born of the Spirit of God and have been transformed of the Spirit.

I understand that we are being made holy, and that we are being conformed into the image of Christ, and that this is a process of sanctification which won't be complete until Jesus returns, and that along the way we may slip and fall, but we should be continually (by the Spirit) putting to death the deeds of the flesh, and we should daily die to sin and self and put on Christ and his armor and walk in the Spirit. If we do sin, we should repent (turn away from it) and we should continue our walks of faith. As we grow in the Lord, we should have more mature walks of faith, for sure. I am not saying a true follower of Christ won't ever fall back into sin, but I don't think we should give new believers the idea that it is ok to continue in sin for a time, which I feel you may be doing here, though not intentional. I believe the passage you quoted from 1 Peter 4 is for all Christians, new and old. We lived in sin long enough in our former lives outside of faith in Christ. Now that we are in Christ, we should no longer live to fulfill the desires of our sinful flesh. We have been delivered out of darkness, and we have been brought into God's wonderful light.

 

[B-A-C]

Why do you believe this is not for new Christians? Are new Christians held to a different standard than us "old" Christians? Why can't new Christians bear fruit immediately?

It isn't that I think it can't happen that way. I believe sometimes it does. But not always.
As far as some being held to a different standard than other Christians... I believe that also.

I believe some of us will be held to a more stringent judgment. James 3:1;

 

[Sue J Love]

It isn't that I think it can't happen that way. I believe sometimes it does. But not always.
As far as some being held to a different standard than other Christians... I believe that also.

I believe some of us will be held to a more stringent judgment. James 3:1;

I agree with James 3:1, but I believe you were suggesting that the passage you quoted in 1 Peter 4, I believe it was, was not for new Christians, but for older Christians, which would suggest that they don't have to obey the same Words from the Lord that we do, but they do. There is not a gospel for new believers and a gospel for older believers, in other words. We all need to turn from our sin, and walk in the Spirit, and not fulfill the desires of our flesh, because we spent enough time living for the flesh when we were outside of faith in Jesus Christ. We are also not excused from bearing fruit for the first 3 years of our Christian lives. We should bear fruit immediately if we truly have been born anew of the Spirit of God.

My concern here is that I felt you were giving new believers an "out" from having to obey the Word and from bearing fruit for God's kingdom, but there is no "out" for any of us. Again, I am not speaking of sinless perfection, but all of us, from the youngest to the oldest, should be walking according to the Spirit and no longer conducting our lives according to our sinful flesh. All of us should be bearing fruit for God's kingdom. It is the outgrowth of lives committed to Christ, submissive to his will, crucified to the flesh, and living to please God; living to righteousness. The problem as I see it is that not many are teaching that salvation means death to sin and living to righteousness, and so people get the idea that believing in Jesus gets them an escape from hell and the promise of heaven when they die, but they can live however they want until then, or they can forsake some sins but hold on to others and they don't have to give those up until much later, if at all.

 

[B-A-C]

My concern here is that I felt you were giving new believers an "out" from having to obey the Word and from bearing fruit for God's kingdom, but there is no "out" for any of us.

Perhaps you are right. It did come out that way. But you're right. Even new Christians are supposed to be obedient.

 

[Sue J Love]

Perhaps you are right. It did come out that way. But you're right. Even new Christians are supposed to be obedient.

Thank you for understanding my concern.

 

[Waggles]

The problem as I see it is that not many are teaching that salvation means death to sin and living to righteousness, and so people get the idea that believing in Jesus gets them an escape from hell and the promise of heaven when they die, but they can live however they want until then, or they can forsake some sins but hold on to others and they don't have to give those up until much later, if at all.

This doctrinal falsehood comes out of the Once Saved Always Saved nonsense promoted by evangelists more interested in bums on seats and tithes (or is that love gifts)
raked in for their financial blessings.

 

[margoeli]

I like what you say BAC, there was a point as a Christian that I had to step away from some of my Christian friends, because I had to put my relationship with Christ before my relationship with them, my priorities were all mixed up. I no longer wished to drink (based on my own personal conviction) and while in the beginning I was ok with meeting up with them while they drank and I refrained, I became a thorn in their side. Even though I didn't judge them, my presence bothered them. It began to feel like the more I tried to follow God, the more I bothered them and the more they found things wrong with me. I no longer work with that ministry and while it was a hard time in my life, I do feel that I am beginning to move forward. The verses below compliment your message, and they are a few that I come back to on a regular basis. I want to love Christ, so I must aim to keep his commandments.

John 14:15-24
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.“After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.“In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. “He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

There was also a time where I looked around me and realized that many of my Christian friends didn't yearn to talk about Christ with me and I knew something was wrong. It is a tough road, and sometimes it can be a little lonely, but one thing I can't ignore is the LARGE AND LOUD conviction that I feel when I begin to read the gospels, that Christ is calling me. It also remind me of the verse

Philippians 3:12-14
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Thank you for sharing your post BAC, it came at a time where I needed it. Sometimes the Lord can be readying us for something greater, when he calls us according to his purpose. But at the time it just feels like losing people you care about, no one ever said following Christ would be easy, but Christ himself did say

John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

 

[Waggles]

It began to feel like the more I tried to follow God, the more I bothered them and the more they found things wrong with me. I no longer work with that ministry and while it was a hard time in my life, I do feel that I am beginning to move forward.

Revelation 18:4-5
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

 

[Sue J Love]

This doctrinal falsehood comes out of the Once Saved Always Saved nonsense promoted by evangelists more interested in bums on seats and tithes (or is that love gifts)
raked in for their financial blessings.

It is about building kingdoms on this earth, rather than participating in the building of God's heavenly kingdom. It is about people liking us, rather than them loving God, truly worshiping him, and walking in holiness.

 

[B-A-C]

the Once Saved Always Saved nonsense promoted by evangelists

This is true, but a great many of evangelists do not believe in OSAS.

 

[RJ]

This doctrinal falsehood comes out of the Once Saved Always Saved nonsense

So, your a Christian , right?
You are then "Born Again", with God giving you the Holy Spirit to live in you , right?
If God says he will never leave you and Jesus says he will never lose you, just exactly how is it that you become "UN-born" back again or become UN-saved again?

 

[B-A-C]

You know in Hebrews 13:5; it says... "He has said".

So where did He say this? Deuteronomy 31 would have to be the closest place.

Deut 31:6; Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the Lord your God is the one who goes with you. He will not fail you or forsake you.”

and it's true... God never left them or forsook them. He never lost track of them,
He knew where they were the entire time.

But yet despite this... they turned away from Him.

Neh 9:9; “You saw the affliction of our fathers in Egypt,
And heard their cry by the Red Sea.
Neh 9:10; “Then You performed signs and wonders against Pharaoh,
Against all his servants and all the people of his land;
For You knew that they acted arrogantly toward them,
And made a name for Yourself as it is this day.
Neh 9:11; “You divided the sea before them,
So they passed through the midst of the sea on dry ground;
And their pursuers You hurled into the depths,
Like a stone into raging waters.
Neh 9:12; “And with a pillar of cloud You led them by day,
And with a pillar of fire by night
To light for them the way
In which they were to go.

So obviously we are talking the same group of people God was leading through the wilderness back in Deuteronomy 31.

Neh 9:16; “But they, our fathers, acted arrogantly;
They became stubborn and would not listen to Your commandments.
Neh 9:17; “They refused to listen,
And did not remember Your wondrous deeds which You had performed among them;
So they became stubborn and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt.
But You are a God of forgiveness,
Gracious and compassionate,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness;
And You did not forsake them.
Neh 9:18; “Even when they made for themselves
A calf of molten metal
And said, ‘This is your God
Who brought you up from Egypt,’
And committed great blasphemies,
Neh 9:19; You, in Your great compassion,
Did not forsake them in the wilderness;
The pillar of cloud did not leave them by day,
To guide them on their way,
Nor the pillar of fire by night, to light for them the way in which they were to go.
Neh 9:20; “You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them,
Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth,
And You gave them water for their thirst.
Neh 9:21; “Indeed, forty years You provided for them in the wilderness and they were not in want;
Their clothes did not wear out, nor did their feet swell.

God took care of these people... He did not forsake them. He fed them and made sure they were clothed.

Yet despite this... they kept rebelling against Him.

Neh 9:26; “But they became disobedient and rebelled against You,
And cast Your law behind their backs
And killed Your prophets who had admonished them
So that they might return to You,
And they committed great [m]blasphemies.
Neh 9:27; “Therefore You delivered them into the hand of their oppressors who oppressed them,
But when they cried to You in the time of their distress,
You heard from heaven, and according to Your great compassion
You gave them deliverers who delivered them from the hand of their oppressors.
Neh 9:28; “But as soon as they had rest, they did evil again before You;Therefore You abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they ruled over them.
When they cried again to You, You heard from heaven,
And many times You rescued them according to Your compassion,
Neh 9:29; And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law.
Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances,
By which if a man observes them he shall live.
And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck, and would not listen.
Neh 9:30; “However, You bore with them for many years,
And admonished them by Your Spirit through Your prophets,
Yet they would not give ear.
Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.
Neh 9:31; “Nevertheless, in Your great compassion You did not make an end of them or forsake them,
For You are a gracious and compassionate God.

God never forsook them. He never lost them or quit taking care of them.

Still... even though God never left them.
They were not allowed to enter into His promised land. They were not allowed to enter into His rest.
Heb 3:11; Heb 3:18; Those who were disobedient were not allowed in.
Heb 4:1-5; Therefore let us fear if while a promise remains of entering his rest, any one of you may come short of it...

Heb 4:11; Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

He doesn't leave us. But we can sure leave Him.

BTW - as far as I can tell... nowhere in the Bible... not one single place.
Did it say anyone received the Holy Spirit at the instant of salvation.
In fact in four places in the new testament... It says they received it after they had been saved for
a little while.

 

[RJ]

It says they received it after they had been saved for
a little while.

So, saved is saved...what does that have to do with if OSAS is true or not?

nowhere in the Bible... not one single place.
Did it say anyone received the Holy Spirit at the instant of salvation.

Only God knows any of this for sure but, in the end, receiving the holy spirit in you is the ultimate sign of being saved is it not?

He doesn't leave us. But we can sure leave Him.

If you believe the word of God where he won't leave you and Jesus won't lose you...where is it exactly that God goes when "you leave him?"

 

[B-A-C]

Several years before I met my wife she had been married.
She was married over 30 years before I met her. My previous wife had cancer.
She lost her previous husband to Multiple Scerosis. I met my wife less than a year
after her husband died. In fact we started dating shortly after I met her.
A lot of people asked her if was too soon for her. Was she done greiving over
her husband?

This was her answer....
He didn't know who I was the last three years of his life. It was really hard.
I had to feed him, bathe him, change his clothes for him... but he didn't know
who I was anymore. I didn't lose my husband last year. I lost him three years
before that.

My wife didn't quit being around him. She was there for him everyday until he died.
But he didn't know her. It wasn't like he never knew her. He just didn't know her
at the end.

God doesn't go anywhere. He's still right here with us... always.
Sometimes, we just don't know him anymore.

 

[Waggles]

If God says he will never leave you and Jesus says he will never lose you, just exactly how is it that you become "UN-born" back again or become UN-saved again?

Because many born again - spirit-filled - Christians walk away from their salvation. God is truly faithful and will always remain within us, especially as he knows the
weaknesses of the flesh and our ability to trip and stumble.
But a believer can stop believing. A believer can stop attending service meetings and partaking in communion. A "saint" can walk away from their faith and obedience
and go back into the world. We refer to this as being a backslider, some to the point of being a reprobate (taking up the very sins that they were set free from when they were baptized
in the Holy Spirit). Remember the 'Parable of the Sower and the Seed.'

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

1Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein,
and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:
and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name
before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

The sacrifice of pain and being whipped at the post, along with an agonizing and humiliating crucifixion is of immense and great value:
For as much as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [1Peter 1:18-19]
Therefore it behooves us to value this sacrifice and honour our commitment "I have decided to follow Jesus, no going back..."
If we retreat back to Egypt for our garlic and leeks then we retreat back to perdition and loss.
Jesus is coming back for overcomers, not quitters.

 

[RJ]

Because many born again - spirit-filled - Christians walk away from their salvation. God is truly faithful and will always remain within us, especially as he knows the
weaknesses of the flesh and our ability to trip and stumble.
But a believer can stop believing. A believer can stop attending service meetings and partaking in communion. A "saint" can walk away from their faith and obedience
and go back into the world. We refer to this as being a backslider, some to the point of being a reprobate (taking up the very sins that they were set free from when they were baptized
in the Holy Spirit). Remember the 'Parable of the Sower and the Seed.'

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

1Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein,
and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly,
and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts:
and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name
before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

The sacrifice of pain and being whipped at the post, along with an agonizing and humiliating crucifixion is of immense and great value:
For as much as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: [1Peter 1:18-19]
Therefore it behooves us to value this sacrifice and honour our commitment "I have decided to follow Jesus, no going back..."
If we retreat back to Egypt for our garlic and leeks then we retreat back to perdition and loss.
Jesus is coming back for overcomers, not quitters.

So with regard to my question that you quoted above, " just exactly how is it that you become "UN-born" back again or become UN-saved again?", you did not directly address and, therefore, you then agree that you can not be Un-born or Un-saved?

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 8:9; His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant.
Luke 8:10; And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.
Luke 8:11; “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15; But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

I notice this parable has those in verse 12. "They will not believe and be saved". These people never believed.
Then there are those in verse 13. They receive the word... they believe "for a while" and then fall away.
In verse 14 there are those who hear the word, but are too busy with life to do anything about it.
And finally there are those in verse 15 who "hold it fast" and hold on to their faith and the word.

But it those in verse 13 that are interesting here. It doesn't say they never believed. In fact they are separated out from those who never believed in verses 12 and 14. It says "They believe for a while" .. and then fall away.

=================

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

You can't "fall away" from the faith, if you never had the faith to begin with. You can't fall off a bicycle or a horse unless you're on the horse to begin with.

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Hebrews 6:1; Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2; of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
Hebrews 6:3; And this we will do, if God permits.
Hebrews 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hebrews 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebrews 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Hebrews 6:7; For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
Hebrews 6:8; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

There are people who have "been enlightened" and "tasted the heavenly gift"... some of these people have even been made "Partaker of the Holy Spirit". These people aren't people who were never saved in the first place. You can't have the Holy Spirit and the enlightenment of God if you've never been saved.
Good pours his blessings and salvation out upon people. Some people "soak it up" and produce good fruit.
Some people "soak it up", but only yields thorns and thistles. They are worthless and end up being burned up.
Just like I mentioned in the passage above from 1 Timothy, you can't "fall away" from something you never had
in the first place.

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Matt 5:13; “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

It doesn't say here that the salt was always tasteless. It appears at one time the salt had flavor.
But then it became tasteless... and now.. it is "no longer" good for anything. Apparently it was good for something
at some point.

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Hebrews 10:28; Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has

regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:30; For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
Hebrews 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Are people who have never been saved in the first place "sanctified by the blood of the covenant".
These are people who were saved. The Lord will judge "His people". Are people who have never been saved "His people"?

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Matt 25:1; Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the

bridegroom.
Matt 25:2; Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
Matt 25:3; For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
Matt 25:4; but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
Matt 25:5; Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
Matt 25:6; But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’
Matt 25:7; Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
Matt 25:8; The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’
Matt 25:9; But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’
Matt 25:10; And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
Matt 25:11; Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open up for us.’
Matt 25:12; But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

All ten virgins started off with oil in their lamps. It wasn't like only five had oil, and the other five never had oil at all.
But five of them, let the oil run out. It wasn't that their lamps were never lit in the first place.
They just let the fire die out.

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Rev 2:4; But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5; Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

Again... much like the virgins. The lamp is lit.. but it is going out. Unless these people make some changes, God is going to remove their lampstand.

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Luke 10:1; Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.
Luke 10:2; And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.

Jesus appoints seventy (some Bibles say 72) other disciple to help with the ministry.

Luke 10:17; The seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
Luke 10:18; And He said to them, “I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Luke 10:19; Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.
Luke 10:20; Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

Even demons were subject to these people. Jesus gave them authority to do miracles. Their names were even recorded in heaven.

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”
John 6:68; Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.

Sometimes people quit following Jesus. Sometimes lamps go out. Sometimes salt loses flavor. Even people who's names are recorded in heaven.

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Exod 32:33 The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

Psalms 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Rev 3:2; Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
Rev 3:3; So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
Rev 3:4; But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5; He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Just because your name might be in the Book of Life doesn't mean it has to stay there forever.

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Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jesus loves us. I believe He loves the Pharisee's, and the un-saved. I believe He loved Judas.
I believe He loved Herod. But just because He loves them doesn't mean they are saved.

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Salvation is a gift from God. We can't earn it on our own. But like any other gift, I can use it for a while. And then throw it away when I no longer want it.

 

[RJ]

Salvation is a gift from God. We can't earn it on our own.

At least you got that point right!

But like any other gift, I can use it for a while. And then throw it away when I no longer want it.

I am sorry you can but I can never throw it away!

 

[Waggles]

you did not directly address and, therefore, you then agree that you can not be Un-born or Un-saved?

I believe I wrote clearly to the point of contention raised by you. I directly answered your matter of concern.
Plus, the scriptures speak to the matter with clarity...

It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
2timothy 2:11-13

Salvation is an ongoing commitment and requires a daily input of prayer and submission to the Word of God. To be lead of the Spirit. To walk with the Lord.
Lots of people give up and walk away from it. They go back into the world. They forsake their new birth, and forsake the saving grace of our Lord.
To remain "born again" and to remain "saved" requires a saint to keep their testimony true, to endure, to keep on keeping on.
Go back over the scriptures I have posted above and in # 16 - they explain the consequences plainly for all to understand.