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Loyal
Sunday, July 10, 2016, 5:55 a.m. – The Lord Jesus put in mind the song “You Never Let Go.” Speak, Lord, your words to my heart. I read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 (ESV).

Together With Them (vv. 4:13-18)

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

We read in this passage of scripture that the “dead in Christ will rise first,” so I believe we need to first of all understand what it means to be “in Christ.” If we do not understand what it means to be “in Christ,” according to God’s word, we may read this passage and find ourselves holding on to hope, for sure, but a false hope, based on a lie.

Jesus Christ said that if anyone would come after him, he must deny self and take up his cross daily (die daily to sin and self) and follow (obey) him. He said that if we want to save our old lives (of living for sin and self), we will lose them, but if we lose our lives for him (die with him to sin), we will save them, i.e. we will have eternal life with God (See: Lu. 9:23-25). Paul, when called of Jesus to the ministry, was called to open (spiritually) blinded eyes, to turn them from darkness (sin, wickedness) to light (truth, righteousness, Jesus), and from the power of Satan (his control over our lives) to God (to faith in Jesus Christ), so that they might receive forgiveness of sins, and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Jesus Christ (See: Ac. 26:16-18).

When Paul taught the gospel of our salvation, he taught what Jesus taught. He taught death to sin, i.e. that when we come to faith in Jesus Christ that we are crucified with Christ in death to sin and we are resurrected with Jesus Christ in newness of life, “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (See: Eph. 4:17-24; Ro. 6:1-23). When we are “in Christ” by faith in him, we count ourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Sin no longer has mastery over us, but we are now slaves to righteousness; to God. The benefit we reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life (See: Ro. 6:1-23). In other words, God’s grace to us is not a free license to continue in sin without guilt and remorse. His grace teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live godly, upright and self-controlled lives while we wait for his return (See: Tit. 2:11-14).

We also read that if Christ is in us, our bodies are dead because of sin, yet our spirits are alive because of righteousness. Therefore “we have an obligation – but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God” (See: Ro. 8:1-14; cf. Lu. 9:23-25). Peter said that Jesus died that we might die to sin and live to righteousness (1 Pet. 2:24). Paul said that Jesus died that we might no longer live for ourselves, but for him who gave his life up for us (2 Co. 5:15). He also said that Jesus died, “in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit” (See: Ro. 8:1-14).

So, if you want to hold on to the hope that your loved ones, who have died physically, are with Jesus, and that Jesus will bring them with him when he comes again to take us who are still alive (in Christ) to be with him, then you need to know that “in Christ” means crucified with Christ in death to sin, and resurrected with Christ in newness of life, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. And, the same applies to us who are still alive, and who profess to be “in Christ,” and who are purportedly waiting his return.

Jesus died that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. He did not die merely to give us an escape from hell and the promise of heaven when we die. People are not with Jesus just because they lived a “good life,” by human standards, or because they were “nice” to people, and so everyone liked them. We are “in Christ” only by faith in him, because of his grace to us, but that faith entails being crucified with Christ so that we no longer live, but Christ now lives within us (in the person of the Holy Spirit), and he is now Lord of our lives.

Times and Seasons (vv. 5:1-11)

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Nonetheless, there are many, many people today who are preaching “peace and security,” rather than teaching the righteousness of God in our lives. They are preaching or are saying what itching ears want to hear, in order to make people feel good about themselves, right where they are, doing what they are doing, even if it means they are walking according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit. They are telling people that nothing bad will happen to them, and that God is pleased with them no matter what they do, even if they are bound in sin. They are even preaching the blessings of God over these people, many times fully knowing that they are walking in sin’s deceitfulness. These deceitful teachers’ consciences are seared. They have no fear (awe, respect, honor) of God. And, they are not teaching the fear of the Lord, but are presenting God as not much different from them.

Don’t listen to them! They are preaching lies! God’s word is real clear. If we walk according to the flesh we will die without Christ, not in Christ. If we say we have fellowship with God, but we walk (conduct our lives) in darkness (wickedness), we are liars, and the truth is not in us. If we hold on to our old lives (of living for sin and self), we will lose them for eternity. The righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in those who walk not according to the flesh, but who conduct their lives according to the Spirit. Only those being led by the Spirit are the children of God. “Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected” (1 Jn. 2:4-5). “No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him” (1 Jn. 3:6) - speaking of continuous sin, i.e. walking according to the flesh, and not according to the Spirit.

So, don’t believe the lies. Turn your life over to Jesus Christ today, and make him Lord (owner/master) of your life. Cooperate with the Spirit’s work of grace in your life in putting sin to death and in raising you to walk in Christ’s righteousness and holiness. Holiness is not optional. We can’t “believe” in Jesus Christ and have nothing change in our lives, or have only superficial changes. This is not saying that belief in Jesus means we will live in sinless perfection from this point forward, but that sin should no longer be our master, and we should now be servants of righteousness. Daily we should be putting sin and self to death and we should be walking in the Spirit, following our Lord Jesus in obedience and in surrender to his will for our lives. This is why he died, that we might follow him wherever he leads us in doing what he has called us to do and to be.

One day Jesus Christ is going to return to judge the world and to receive his bride to be with him forever. Don’t get caught asleep and unaware so that you do not escape the coming wrath. Our God is a loving God, for sure, but he is also a just God, and a righteous God, and he will judge, and people will have to face eternal punishment in the lake of fire. Yet, for those who are truly “in Christ,” by God’s grace, through faith in Christ Jesus - who have been crucified with Christ in death to sin, and who have been resurrected with Christ in newness of life - they will have the hope of eternal life with God. And, our Lord will see them through every trial and tribulation until he takes them home to be with him. So, they never have cause to fear. Even though Satan may threaten us, and his servants may reject and persecute us, we have no reason to ever be afraid, because our hope in Christ is secure forevermore, and no one can take that away from us. Amen!

You Never Let Go / Matt Redman

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
Your perfect love is casting out fear
And even when I’m caught in the middle of the storms of this life
I won’t turn back
I know You are near

And I will fear no evil
For my God is with me
And if my God is with me
Whom then shall I fear?


 
Loyal
In the Old Testament the trumpet was used to signal the children of Israel. Blowing one trumpet or two, or blowing one time or two times provided different messages to be understood with proper actions to follow [See Numbers 10]. The signal had to be be clear and understandable and everyone needed to be paying attention. Likewise we must be listening and understanding so that we can take the proper action when needed. Unfortunately, not all of the sounds we are hearing are properly keyed with God's real message.

"And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" I Cor 14:7-8

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Where are our "ears"?
 
Loyal
In the Old Testament the trumpet was used to signal the children of Israel. Blowing one trumpet or two, or blowing one time or two times provided different messages to be understood with proper actions to follow [See Numbers 10]. The signal had to be be clear and understandable and everyone needed to be paying attention. Likewise we must be listening and understanding so that we can take the proper action when needed. Unfortunately, not all of the sounds we are hearing are properly keyed with God's real message.

"And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" I Cor 14:7-8

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Where are our "ears"?
Amen! Thanks, @amadeus2. I appreciate what you shared here. I looked up trumpet and I learned a lot about what all it was used for. Yes, the trumpet needs to give a clear call so that we can prepare for battle.
 
Active
Amen! Thanks, @amadeus2. I appreciate what you shared here. I looked up trumpet and I learned a lot about what all it was used for. Yes, the trumpet needs to give a clear call so that we can prepare for battle.
The voices of living WATER has been crying out to prepare for battle, unfortunately many are asleep. Has anyone believed the testimonies of Jesus Christ in which I have seen, heard and felt? I have felt the weight of sin, I have seen the New Jerusalem, it is not a fortress that sits upon this earth, but was suspended in mid air, I have heard the Holy Spirit speak audibly and in the quiet of the Spirit as He ministers to me.
We are in for a very rough ride in the physical and many will faint and die because their wisdom and understanding is false.
If we want to be alive in Him in the after life, He had better be alive in this life right now. Fear not, things are going to happen and our pitiful little selfish lives are going to change. God will separate the sheep from the goats, and those that trust and depend in God will rise up in the judgment. Many hide themselves from the wickedness upon the earth and from the face of God.

I see things unfolding right now that is setting the stage of the wrath and vengeance to come. It is about to get much darker. The antichrist is rising in unity; worldly followers and supporters of it, rather than God.

Lord have mercy upon us ALL. Amen
 
Loyal
The voices of living WATER has been crying out to prepare for battle, unfortunately many are asleep. Has anyone believed the testimonies of Jesus Christ in which I have seen, heard and felt? I have felt the weight of sin, I have seen the New Jerusalem, it is not a fortress that sits upon this earth, but was suspended in mid air, I have heard the Holy Spirit speak audibly and in the quiet of the Spirit as He ministers to me.
We are in for a very rough ride in the physical and many will faint and die because their wisdom and understanding is false.
If we want to be alive in Him in the after life, He had better be alive in this life right now. Fear not, things are going to happen and our pitiful little selfish lives are going to change. God will separate the sheep from the goats, and those that trust and depend in God will rise up in the judgment. Many hide themselves from the wickedness upon the earth and from the face of God.

I see things unfolding right now that is setting the stage of the wrath and vengeance to come. It is about to get much darker. The antichrist is rising in unity; worldly followers and supporters of it, rather than God.

Lord have mercy upon us ALL. Amen
@rag4aCrown - Thank you for sharing those insights into what is going on presently in our world, and in the worldly church, and concerning what is yet to come, which the prophets of old prophesied concerning, and which we are being shown the reality of, by the Spirit, in our present day. Yes, a cry is definitely going out by the Spirit, through the Lord's messengers, that we must get ready for a spiritual battle. God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - is calling to the complacent and adulterous church to repent of her sins of adultery and idolatry and to return to her first love. Yes, many are asleep, and not just those who make no profession of faith in Jesus Christ. Yes, the beast (Rev. 13) is rising. The evil that is going on in the world right now is all in preparation for Satan's rule on the earth, but only for a short time, and then our Lord will return and he will take us to be with him forever. Amen! Yes, things are going to get much worse, but I believe God will use this time of testing to revive his church and to send the gospel to the ends of the earth so that many will come to believe in Jesus Christ before our Lord returns. The word "unity" is a key word to this rise of the antichrist. There is a big push now in the church and in the world to bring all people together as one, regardless of religious affiliation or lifestyle. They are trying to break down all which divides us, and the gospel divides us (sheep and goats).
 
Active
Revelations 12:1-17 is what the beast waits for; another he must kill; a chosen one of God, a woman. And God is coming back with vengeance and wrath upon this unbelieving (condemned) world. Amen.
Just as Salvation came, and blazed us a trail in which to follow, few will find it.

Lord, your will be done.
 
Member
In the Old Testament the trumpet was used to signal the children of Israel. Blowing one trumpet or two, or blowing one time or two times provided different messages to be understood with proper actions to follow [See Numbers 10]. The signal had to be be clear and understandable and everyone needed to be paying attention. Likewise we must be listening and understanding so that we can take the proper action when needed. Unfortunately, not all of the sounds we are hearing are properly keyed with God's real message.

"And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?" I Cor 14:7-8

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Where are our "ears"?
I'm a brass player, so I'm interested in biblical instruments. Actually, what they used was a sophir, (so far, so good) largely an animal's horn, which would sound petty awful by today's standards. In the late nineteenth century, wealthy Reformed Jews built a huge synagogue in San Francisco. One of their stipulations, which marked them as Reformed or modern, was that they requested the first-chair trumpet of the San Francisco symphony play the call to worship, not those horrible animal horns.
 
Member
Amen! Thanks, @amadeus2. I appreciate what you shared here. I looked up trumpet and I learned a lot about what all it was used for. Yes, the trumpet needs to give a clear call so that we can prepare for battle.
If you are into music, you might try Haydn's "Dittengen Te Deum." It is a spiritual work written to commerate the big battle at Dittengen. Loads of trumpet calls, all of which were written by Haydn and actually used in battle. In fact, the work opens with an actual battle call from the trumpets. The rest of the piece has all sorts of high trumpet work, so high it is not played on a regular length trumpet. Great work. Played it in church years back.
 
Loyal
I'm a brass player, so I'm interested in biblical instruments. Actually, what they used was a sophir, (so far, so good) largely an animal's horn, which would sound petty awful by today's standards. In the late nineteenth century, wealthy Reformed Jews built a huge synagogue in San Francisco. One of their stipulations, which marked them as Reformed or modern, was that they requested the first-chair trumpet of the San Francisco symphony play the call to worship, not those horrible animal horns.
What those Jews wanted was a clear sound, which should be good when and if it is God's clear sound. All musicians with real talent received their talent in the beginning with God. How they developed and used that talent is another thing isn't it? An excellent musician can practice for hours daily and still misuse his gift. Almost certainly many have done so. When they have so done then is not even the sound emitted by the trumpet of the most practiced and skilled player off key to the ears of God and to those to whom God has given real "ears to hear".

Give God the glory!

[I have never played a trumpet, but I once played a French horn and continue to play the piano.]
 
Member
What those Jews wanted was a clear sound, which should be good when and if it is God's clear sound. All musicians with real talent received their talent in the beginning with God. How they developed and used that talent is another thing isn't it? An excellent musician can practice for hours daily and still misuse his gift. Almost certainly many have done so. When they have so done then is not even the sound emitted by the trumpet of the most practiced and skilled player off key to the ears of God and to those to whom God has given real "ears to hear".

Give God the glory!

[I have never played a trumpet, but I once played a French horn and continue to play the piano.]
Well, I don't know what you men when you say misused their talent. There are some musicians who are excellent technicians, but their playing has no real feeling in it. I am also unsure what you mean by 'clear." Really great music always moves us beyond the frontier where the precision of consciousness fails. We can feel more deeply than we can think. We enter a world loaded with heavy, shifting, indeterminate meanings, where a new dimension of reality is perceived but no clear images are received. Aesthetic delight has eclipsed cognition. We can hear a great composition, feel deeply moved, and yet be unable to say, have no real idea exactly what is happening to us, what we have experienced. We are primarily feelers, only secondarily thinkers.
 
Loyal
Well, I don't know what you men when you say misused their talent.
Misusing talent is like misusing position. A person may be placed in a position of power as was Saul, the first king of Israel, but improperly use it. Consider the parable of the talents in Matthew 25.

There are some musicians who are excellent technicians, but their playing has no real feeling in it.
That is too often me in my music, but I work at it anyway.

I am also unsure what you mean by 'clear." Really great music always moves us beyond the frontier where the precision of consciousness fails. We can feel more deeply than we can think.
If a "talented" person, (perhaps I should use the word "gifted) uses God gift to please men more than to please God how great is the music? As to "clear" consider what the Apostle Paul means in this verse:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face...: I Cor 13:12

Our vision of God needs to be improving to come to that "face to face". A musician with a gift from God needs to continue to work at it... "practice makes perfect" to come to that "face to face" in his function in the Body of Christ.

Even feeling deeply is not the answer for there are times when believers do not "feel" God. We need to continue in our faith even when we cannot feel a thing from God.

We enter a world loaded with heavy, shifting, indeterminate meanings, where a new dimension of reality is perceived but no clear images are received. Aesthetic delight has eclipsed cognition. We can hear a great composition, feel deeply moved, and yet be unable to say, have no real idea exactly what is happening to us, what we have experienced. We are primarily feelers, only secondarily thinkers.
I won't argue the point with you for I do agree when it comes to carnal things but music, even when well played (as men understand "well played") by a gifted person can be carnal. Both of those two you mention, [feelings and thoughts] are nothing to God without "charity". Without "charity" as God understands it they are nothing. This is likely to disagree with the point of view of many men.

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:1-2

The "sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal" includes the use of a musical gift without "charity". The "knowledge" includes an understanding of music without "charity".

A great musician in the eyes of all of the critics among men is still nothing to God if that musician does not have "charity". Verse 4 through 7 of that same chapter of I Corinthians describe what "charity" is.
 
Member
Misusing talent is like misusing position. A person may be placed in a position of power as was Saul, the first king of Israel, but improperly use it. Consider the parable of the talents in Matthew 25.



That is too often me in my music, but I work at it anyway.



If a "talented" person, (perhaps I should use the word "gifted) uses God gift to please men more than to please God how great is the music? As to "clear" consider what the Apostle Paul means in this verse:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face...: I Cor 13:12

Our vision of God needs to be improving to come to that "face to face". A musician with a gift from God needs to continue to work at it... "practice makes perfect" to come to that "face to face" in his function in the Body of Christ.

Even feeling deeply is not the answer for there are times when believers do not "feel" God. We need to continue in our faith even when we cannot feel a thing from God.



I won't argue the point with you for I do agree when it comes to carnal things but music, even when well played (as men understand "well played") by a gifted person can be carnal. Both of those two you mention, [feelings and thoughts] are nothing to God without "charity". Without "charity" as God understands it they are nothing. This is likely to disagree with the point of view of many men.

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:1-2

The "sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal" includes the use of a musical gift without "charity". The "knowledge" includes an understanding of music without "charity".

A great musician in the eyes of all of the critics among men is still nothing to God if that musician does not have "charity". Verse 4 through 7 of that same chapter of I Corinthians describe what "charity" is.
I am inclined to agree with some of what you say, if by 'charity," you mean empathy, sharing in the feelings of others, feeling more deeply in ourselves and feeling more deeply into others, and then doing something creative with these feelings.
Correct, we don't always feel deeply. But then that is something we all need to work on. We all need to improve our level of sensitivity.
I'm not sure what you mean by "carnal." Traditionally, the term has been used to denote great delight and pleasure in physical things, the pleasures of teh flesh, especially sex. However, I am inclined to think this is due more to the early influx of Hellenic standards of perfection, rather than Scripture, as the bible affirms the inherent goodness of the physical order. God wants us to deeply enjoy the beauties of the world and our bodies.
 
Loyal
I am inclined to agree with some of what you say, if by 'charity," you mean empathy, sharing in the feelings of others, feeling more deeply in ourselves and feeling more deeply into others, and then doing something creative with these feelings.
I mean by "charity" as per I Cor 13:4-7 as indicated in my post. I won't amplify now as it depends upon what God has written in our hearts.

Correct, we don't always feel deeply. But then that is something we all need to work on.
Or... if it needs improvement we need to ask of God to improve it.

We all need to improve our level of sensitivity.
Or... again we need to ask of God to improve it IF according to Him it needs to be improved.

I'm not sure what you mean by "carnal." Traditionally, the term has been used to denote great delight and pleasure in physical things, the pleasures of teh flesh, especially sex.
My meaning of the carnal I believe comes from scriptural usages as understood through the Holy Spirit. There is spiritual and there is carnal. All of us were born carnal and therefore effectively dead to the essential things of God. A rebirth is needed to make us Alive. Most people in this sense, I believe, remain dead. A dead person cannot hear the Trumpet of God.

However, I am inclined to think this is due more to the early influx of Hellenic standards of perfection, rather than Scripture, as the bible affirms the inherent goodness of the physical order. God wants us to deeply enjoy the beauties of the world and our bodies.
God made everything "very good" [Gen 1:31] but then man twisted them and misused them until men are often calling the evil good and the good evil. Until we are Alive in the Spirit, we cannot enjoy those beauties as God would like us to... When we quench the Holy Spirit in us, we will hear only an "uncertain sound" instead of the clear sound of the trumpet.
 
Member
I mean by "charity" as per I Cor 13:4-7 as indicated in my post. I won't amplify now as it depends upon what God has written in our hearts.



Or... if it needs improvement we need to ask of God to improve it.



Or... again we need to ask of God to improve it IF according to Him it needs to be improved.



My meaning of the carnal I believe comes from scriptural usages as understood through the Holy Spirit. There is spiritual and there is carnal. All of us were born carnal and therefore effectively dead to the essential things of God. A rebirth is needed to make us Alive. Most people in this sense, I believe, remain dead. A dead person cannot hear the Trumpet of God.



God made everything "very good" [Gen 1:31] but then man twisted them and misused them until men are often calling the evil good and the good evil. Until we are Alive in the Spirit, we cannot enjoy those beauties as God would like us to... When we quench the Holy Spirit in us, we will hear only an "uncertain sound" instead of the clear sound of the trumpet.
Sorry, I still don't follow what you mean by carnal. Many people read Scripture to mean carnal in the sense of enjoying "earthly," physical pleasures. I disagree, however, for reasons I previously indicated.
Unless, you assume we are all perfect, then yes, God always wants us to improve our level of sensitivity.
When you speak of us all being born dead, I assume you are talking about original sin, the notion that we are all born corrupt through and through. I realize this is fundamental in the Augustinian-Calvinistic tradition, not all Christian traditions or understandings of Scripture. However, I question whether it is truly biblical. Also, I find it irrational. If we are born evil, the let us be evil. It's bad to go against nature.
 
Loyal
Sorry, I still don't follow what you mean by carnal. Many people read Scripture to mean carnal in the sense of enjoying "earthly," physical pleasures. I disagree, however, for reasons I previously indicated.
Unless, you assume we are all perfect, then yes, God always wants us to improve our level of sensitivity.
You do mean our "sensitivity" to Him, right?

When you speak of us all being born dead, I assume you are talking about original sin, the notion that we are all born corrupt through and through. I realize this is fundamental in the Augustinian-Calvinistic tradition, not all Christian traditions or understandings of Scripture.
No, I take it from Gen 2:17 for they did eat and did in that same day die. All of their offspring have been in the eyes of God born dead. Does not Jesus agree?

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

Jesus brought Life for whosoever will, but most won't and don't. Dead people do not hear the sounding of the Trumpet.

However, I question whether it is truly biblical. Also, I find it irrational. If we are born evil, the let us be evil. It's bad to go against nature.
Where did you get the "It's bad to go against nature"? Is not "nature" the "natural" way that God made things in the beginning? That way is "very good" for God made it so, but man has gone another way continuously without God.

We were born dead and dead is what God is not. We are not dead only if we have believed as Jesus said:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26
 
Member
You do mean our "sensitivity" to Him, right?



No, I take it from Gen 2:17 for they did eat and did in that same day die. All of their offspring have been in the eyes of God born dead. Does not Jesus agree?

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

Jesus brought Life for whosoever will, but most won't and don't. Dead people do not hear the sounding of the Trumpet.



Where did you get the "It's bad to go against nature"? Is not "nature" the "natural" way that God made things in the beginning? That way is "very good" for God made it so, but man has gone another way continuously without God.

We were born dead and dead is what God is not. We are not dead only if we have believed as Jesus said:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26
Wait a sec! Genesis 2:17 says they are "doomed to die." It doesn't say anything about us being born dead. Matthew 8:22 is Jesus telling one of his disciples to stick with him, if you want to be one of my disciples, then forget your family, rather than worrying about his family situation and so going home to bury his dead father. That passage has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about.
According to the doctrine of original sin, yes, our nature is evil; we are born evil through and through. Now I am saying that if this is what you truly believe, then the thing to do is to go be evil, as that is your nature. I am also saying this is not a biblical teaching. Nothing in the Bible says that Adam and Eve or even creation were made perfect, just good. Good does not mean perfect in every way. Nothing in the Bible says we are born corrupt through and through, either.
 
Loyal
Wait a sec! Genesis 2:17 says they are "doomed to die." It doesn't say anything about us being born dead. Matthew 8:22 is Jesus telling one of his disciples to stick with him, if you want to be one of my disciples, then forget your family, rather than worrying about his family situation and so going home to bury his dead father. That passage has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about.
I am not one to argue, but there is "dead" and there is "dead". When Jesus finally left with his followers to go to Lazarus he used the word "sleep" with regard to Lazarus. His followers did not understand his meaning so he clarified using their meaning of dead to break through to their understanding:

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." John 11:4

You say the one has nothing to do with the other, but to me it does. I am not a theologian. I did not go to a formal school to study the scriptures. I simply study and read and pray and sometimes discuss. Still, I am pretty sure that I also have a darkened or blurry vision of some things. When God lets me know where I am wrong, then I certainly hope I will be willing to change.

According to the doctrine of original sin, yes, our nature is evil; we are born evil through and through. Now I am saying that if this is what you truly believe, then the thing to do is to go be evil, as that is your nature. I am also saying this is not a biblical teaching. Nothing in the Bible says that Adam and Eve or even creation were made perfect, just good. Good does not mean perfect in every way. Nothing in the Bible says we are born corrupt through and through, either.
Paul writes about this "corruptible" putting on the "incorruptible". This corruptible has certainly been corrupted. Adam and Eve started the corruption of themselves and their offspring continued and increased this corruption moving farther and farther away from where even their first natural parents were in relation to God. Adam and Eve still had knowledge of God which they did not deny. This is not true of many people today. People have continued to eat of the wrong tree.

Perfection is what God says it is and it is attainable through Him because He says it is. Alone we are not corrupt through and through at natural birth or none of us would have the means to make the first approach to God.
 
Member
Sunday, July 10, 2016, 5:55 a.m. – The Lord Jesus put in mind the song “You Never Let Go.” Speak, Lord, your words to my heart. I read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 (ESV).

Together With Them (vv. 4:13-18)

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

We read in this passage of scripture that the “dead in Christ will rise first,” so I believe we need to first of all understand what it means to be “in Christ.” If we do not understand what it means to be “in Christ,” according to God’s word, we may read this passage and find ourselves holding on to hope, for sure, but a false hope, based on a lie.

Jesus Christ said that if anyone would come after him, he must deny self and take up his cross daily (die daily to sin and self) and follow (obey) him. He said that if we want to save our old lives (of living for sin and self), we will lose them, but if we lose our lives for him (die with him to sin), we will save them, i.e. we will have eternal life with God (See: Lu. 9:23-25). Paul, when called of Jesus to the ministry, was called to open (spiritually) blinded eyes, to turn them from darkness (sin, wickedness) to light (truth, righteousness, Jesus), and from the power of Satan (his control over our lives) to God (to faith in Jesus Christ), so that they might receive forgiveness of sins, and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Jesus Christ (See: Ac. 26:16-18).

When Paul taught the gospel of our salvation, he taught what Jesus taught. He taught death to sin, i.e. that when we come to faith in Jesus Christ that we are crucified with Christ in death to sin and we are resurrected with Jesus Christ in newness of life, “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness” (See: Eph. 4:17-24; Ro. 6:1-23). When we are “in Christ” by faith in him, we count ourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Sin no longer has mastery over us, but we are now slaves to righteousness; to God. The benefit we reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life (See: Ro. 6:1-23). In other words, God’s grace to us is not a free license to continue in sin without guilt and remorse. His grace teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live godly, upright and self-controlled lives while we wait for his return (See: Tit. 2:11-14).

We also read that if Christ is in us, our bodies are dead because of sin, yet our spirits are alive because of righteousness. Therefore “we have an obligation – but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God” (See: Ro. 8:1-14; cf. Lu. 9:23-25). Peter said that Jesus died that we might die to sin and live to righteousness (1 Pet. 2:24). Paul said that Jesus died that we might no longer live for ourselves, but for him who gave his life up for us (2 Co. 5:15). He also said that Jesus died, “in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit” (See: Ro. 8:1-14).

So, if you want to hold on to the hope that your loved ones, who have died physically, are with Jesus, and that Jesus will bring them with him when he comes again to take us who are still alive (in Christ) to be with him, then you need to know that “in Christ” means crucified with Christ in death to sin, and resurrected with Christ in newness of life, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. And, the same applies to us who are still alive, and who profess to be “in Christ,” and who are purportedly waiting his return.

Jesus died that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. He did not die merely to give us an escape from hell and the promise of heaven when we die. People are not with Jesus just because they lived a “good life,” by human standards, or because they were “nice” to people, and so everyone liked them. We are “in Christ” only by faith in him, because of his grace to us, but that faith entails being crucified with Christ so that we no longer live, but Christ now lives within us (in the person of the Holy Spirit), and he is now Lord of our lives.

Times and Seasons (vv. 5:1-11)

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Nonetheless, there are many, many people today who are preaching “peace and security,” rather than teaching the righteousness of God in our lives. They are preaching or are saying what itching ears want to hear, in order to make people feel good about themselves, right where they are, doing what they are doing, even if it means they are walking according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit. They are telling people that nothing bad will happen to them, and that God is pleased with them no matter what they do, even if they are bound in sin. They are even preaching the blessings of God over these people, many times fully knowing that they are walking in sin’s deceitfulness. These deceitful teachers’ consciences are seared. They have no fear (awe, respect, honor) of God. And, they are not teaching the fear of the Lord, but are presenting God as not much different from them.

Don’t listen to them! They are preaching lies! God’s word is real clear. If we walk according to the flesh we will die without Christ, not in Christ. If we say we have fellowship with God, but we walk (conduct our lives) in darkness (wickedness), we are liars, and the truth is not in us. If we hold on to our old lives (of living for sin and self), we will lose them for eternity. The righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in those who walk not according to the flesh, but who conduct their lives according to the Spirit. Only those being led by the Spirit are the children of God. “Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected” (1 Jn. 2:4-5). “No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him” (1 Jn. 3:6) - speaking of continuous sin, i.e. walking according to the flesh, and not according to the Spirit.

So, don’t believe the lies. Turn your life over to Jesus Christ today, and make him Lord (owner/master) of your life. Cooperate with the Spirit’s work of grace in your life in putting sin to death and in raising you to walk in Christ’s righteousness and holiness. Holiness is not optional. We can’t “believe” in Jesus Christ and have nothing change in our lives, or have only superficial changes. This is not saying that belief in Jesus means we will live in sinless perfection from this point forward, but that sin should no longer be our master, and we should now be servants of righteousness. Daily we should be putting sin and self to death and we should be walking in the Spirit, following our Lord Jesus in obedience and in surrender to his will for our lives. This is why he died, that we might follow him wherever he leads us in doing what he has called us to do and to be.

One day Jesus Christ is going to return to judge the world and to receive his bride to be with him forever. Don’t get caught asleep and unaware so that you do not escape the coming wrath. Our God is a loving God, for sure, but he is also a just God, and a righteous God, and he will judge, and people will have to face eternal punishment in the lake of fire. Yet, for those who are truly “in Christ,” by God’s grace, through faith in Christ Jesus - who have been crucified with Christ in death to sin, and who have been resurrected with Christ in newness of life - they will have the hope of eternal life with God. And, our Lord will see them through every trial and tribulation until he takes them home to be with him. So, they never have cause to fear. Even though Satan may threaten us, and his servants may reject and persecute us, we have no reason to ever be afraid, because our hope in Christ is secure forevermore, and no one can take that away from us. Amen!

You Never Let Go / Matt Redman

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
Your perfect love is casting out fear
And even when I’m caught in the middle of the storms of this life
I won’t turn back
I know You are near

And I will fear no evil
For my God is with me
And if my God is with me
Whom then shall I fear?


Jesus is our righteousness
Lonely Ranger
 

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