The Rapture revisited

[B-A-C]

Some say the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible. However rapture simply means "caught up" as in
verse 17 below. Much of what is known about the rapture comes from 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.

1 Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1 Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thes 4:18; Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There have been hundreds of debates here on TJ about when the rapture will happen, but for the purpose of this thread it doesn't matter. Only that it will happen at some point.
Some say this is simply the second coming and that there is only one event.

Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The language here is similar to 1 Thess chapter 4. Again we see that term "gather together" or "gather up".

Matt 24:39; and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:40; "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:41; "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

We see the familiar passage here of two men in a field and two women at the mill, in both places,
one will be taken, and one will be "left" (behind). The passage in Luke 17 is similar.

Luke 17:30; "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 17:31; "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Luke 17:32; "Remember Lot's wife.
Luke 17:33; "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luke 17:34; "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:35; "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:36; ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]

Again we the two men in a field, and two women grinding (presumably at the mill) but here is
an added passage we don't see in Matthew. Two in bed. Perhaps a husband and wife. One is taken
and the other is left (behind).

The thing I notice about these passages is that people are being "taken up" or gathered up, or
caught up. No matter how it is worded, we see these people are going UP to the clouds to be
with Jesus. ( 1 Thes 4:17; Matt 24:31; ) This direction of UP is important. Why would Jesus be taking people
up to the clouds to meet with Him?

Some say the parable of the 10 virgins in Matt 25:1-13; could be related to this as well.
So what is the significance of going UP to the clouds with Jesus? Well the main thing is that it's the
opposite of DOWN.

When Jesus comes back DOWN to the earth (not simply just the clouds) He will reign on the earth for
1,000 years. Depending on your view of when the rapture is (before, during, or after the tribulation)
This affects who you think will be reigning with Jesus during the 1,000 years He reigns on the earth.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5; The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

It says here that those who were beheaded because of their faith, and those who did not worship the beast or take his mark "came back to life" (so they must have ALL been dead).
But the people and these people ALONE have the right to rule and reign with Jesus during the 1,000 year
reign on earth. (The REST of the dead do not come back to life until the 1,000 years are completed).
So if the rapture happens before the millennial reign, those who "caught up" in the clouds will reign
with Him. If it doesn't happen until after the millennial reign, then only those who were beheaded because of their faith will reign with Him for the 1,000 years.

 

[Dave M]

My understanding is that those from the church will rule with him also those raptured up, all with glorified bodies, there will also be beleivers that made it trough tribulation that will occupy earth with mortal bodies. Those martyred during tribulation will not get glorfied bodies and there souls will be under the altar until the end of the 1,000 years with the old saints of the OT.

 

[Dave M]

Edit the top post I made to say

those martyred during tribulation, and the OT saints have to wait until tribulation over to get there glorified bodies then they will rule with Jesus and the Church for the 1,000

 

[backNforth]

Some say the word "rapture" isn't in the Bible. However rapture simply means "caught up" as in
verse 17 below. Much of what is known about the rapture comes from 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.

1 Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1 Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thes 4:18; Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Believers don’t do the hackneyed “go to heaven” thing; rather, Christ sets up his kingdom here, with us. We, being "caught up" with others, meet the Lord in the air and then return back to earth with him.

For example, if your friends fly in from another country to visit you, you might travel to your local airport to meet them when their plane lands and then escort them back to your place. If they’re VIP friends, you might have a delegation meet them at your country's main airport, and then escort them back to your place. In either case, you don’t go to your airport, meet your friends, get on your friend’s plane, and then travel back with your friends to their place of origin!

So, do we have a scriptural witness to this scenario? Yes.

...we came the next day to Puteoli: Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. And when we came to Rome... -- Acts 28:13-16

The brothers in Rome got word of their impending visitors, and so went out to meet them at Appii forum, and then escorted them back to Rome.

meet = same word in both Acts 28 and 1 Thes. 4.

Here are all four usages of the word meet:

Mat. 25:1 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat. 25:6 - And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Acts 28:15 - And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

1 Thes. 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All four are consistent with “meet and greet and return to base.“

Matt 24:39; and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:40; "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:41; "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:42; "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

We see the familiar passage here of two men in a field and two women at the mill, in both places,
one will be taken, and one will be "left" (behind). The passage in Luke 17 is similar.

Luke 17:30; "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 17:31; "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Luke 17:32; "Remember Lot's wife.
Luke 17:33; "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luke 17:34; "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:35; "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:36; ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]

Again we the two men in a field, and two women grinding (presumably at the mill) but here is
an added passage we don't see in Matthew. Two in bed. Perhaps a husband and wife. One is taken
and the other is left (behind).

The entire "Left Behind" enterpri$e is based upon a perversion of Scripture: "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." - Matt. 24:40, 41. Isn't that the rapture? No, that's a classic twist created by the Rapture Camp.

Jesus says His return will be just like in the days of Noah. He says all of Noah's neighbors were unsaved people who were eating and drinking and they didn't know the flood was coming until it came and "took them all away." So when the flood came, who got "taken away"? The evil ones, who didn't know the judgement was coming: "And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; So shall also the coming of the son of man be." - Matt. 24:39.

Jesus says the one will be taken and the other left. So who got taken? The one who was destroyed, just as it was in the days of Noah. In fact, when the disciples asked where they were taken, Jesus said look for the vultures, for that's where the dead bodies will be: "And they answered and said unto Him, Where Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is there will the eagles be gathered together." - Luke 17:37. IOW, you want to be left behind!

 

[Hekuran]

Good post. This is far more consistent with key passages of scripture than other interpretations.

 

[Curtis]

Believers don’t do the hackneyed “go to heaven” thing; rather, Christ sets up his kingdom here, with us. We, being "caught up" with others, meet the Lord in the air and then return back to earth with him.

For example, if your friends fly in from another country to visit you, you might travel to your local airport to meet them when their plane lands and then escort them back to your place. If they’re VIP friends, you might have a delegation meet them at your country's main airport, and then escort them back to your place. In either case, you don’t go to your airport, meet your friends, get on your friend’s plane, and then travel back with your friends to their place of origin!

So, do we have a scriptural witness to this scenario? Yes.

...we came the next day to Puteoli: Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. And when we came to Rome... -- Acts 28:13-16

The brothers in Rome got word of their impending visitors, and so went out to meet them at Appii forum, and then escorted them back to Rome.

meet = same word in both Acts 28 and 1 Thes. 4.

Here are all four usages of the word meet:

Mat. 25:1 - Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Mat. 25:6 - And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Acts 28:15 - And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.

1 Thes. 4:17 - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

All four are consistent with “meet and greet and return to base.“


The entire "Left Behind" enterpri$e is based upon a perversion of Scripture: "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." - Matt. 24:40, 41. Isn't that the rapture? No, that's a classic twist created by the Rapture Camp.

Jesus says His return will be just like in the days of Noah. He says all of Noah's neighbors were unsaved people who were eating and drinking and they didn't know the flood was coming until it came and "took them all away." So when the flood came, who got "taken away"? The evil ones, who didn't know the judgement was coming: "And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; So shall also the coming of the son of man be." - Matt. 24:39.

Jesus says the one will be taken and the other left. So who got taken? The one who was destroyed, just as it was in the days of Noah. In fact, when the disciples asked where they were taken, Jesus said look for the vultures, for that's where the dead bodies will be: "And they answered and said unto Him, Where Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is there will the eagles be gathered together." - Luke 17:37. IOW, you want to be left behind!

You seem to have the "rapture" or "catching away" of the Church mixed up with the "second" coming of Christ. It will be at Christ's second coming that he will set up his millennial Kingdom, not at the catching away of his Church. The tribulation must come first before Christ second coming, but the tribulation can not even begin until the Church is gone, and then the antichrist (man of sin) will be revealed. It is plain as day in 1, and 2 Thessalonians.

 

[Dave M]

That is my take on it also Curtis then after the 1,000 year rein of Christ, the final battle between satan and Christ and satan is thrown in to the lake of fire forever and the new Heaven and New Earth will be made. We will be sporting are new glorified bodies during the time of millennium.

 

[backNforth]

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)

 

[Curtis]

If you want the answer to the "rapture" question, simply study the RESURRECTION.

The rapture doctrine requires students of the scriptures to approach each relevant verse with certain preconceived notions about prophecy. If you simply read the various prophetic verses about the return of Christ, the Bible clearly teaches that believers will be “gathered” at the second coming -- not some secret, invisible return that precedes his BIG second coming at the end of the tribulation. The problem isn’t in our understanding of the rapture, because the rapture as routinely taught today doesn’t even exist; the difficulty is in our understanding of the resurrection.

In John chapter five, Jesus tells us how God The Father has committed the power of resurrection to him. Jesus says “He that heareth my word and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life...for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 6:24, 28, 29) According to these passages, apparently there are two resurrections: one for those “that have done good,” and a resurrection for those “that have done evil.”

In one of the parallel accounts, a verse in Luke has Christ himself saying that the believer shall “be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.” (Luke 14:14) Another proof text of this dual aspect of the resurrection is found in the book of Acts when the Apostle Paul was brought before the Roman governor Felix and charged with heresy by the Jews.

Paul stated that he believes, as the Jews did, “that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” (Ezekiel 33:8, 4) A further example of this understanding of two resurrections is found in the Old Testament, when the prophet Daniel was instructed by the archangel Michael concerning the tribulation and the resurrection. In that instance, Michael said that in the time of the end, “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

Back in the New Testament book of Revelation, we find a reference to “the first resurrection.” (Rev. 20:5) This first resurrection clearly relates to believers in Jesus, for the text states that they “lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:4)

In the same chapter, John (the writer of Revelation) says “the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20:5) Later in the chapter John says, “when the thousand years are expired...I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...and the dead were judged...” (Rev. 20:7, 12) These verses plainly state that there are two resurrections -- one for believers and one for unbelievers.

The Revelation passages further clarify that these two resurrections are separated by one thousand years; this being the period we commonly call the millennium during which the resurrected believers shall “reign with him a thousand years.” (Rev. 20:6)

The reason why you can not grasp the "rapture" is because you do not understand what a "Harvest" entails. God told his people in the Old Testament to observe every single harvest in a special way for hundreds of years so they would get this thinking in themselves, and so when we the Church read it we can understand how God see's the resurrection. Jesus referred to the resurrection as a harvest.
Every harvest is made up of three separate events, that happen at different times, yet God see's these "three" separate events as "one harvest"

There is the "first fruits" which the Bible tells us that Jesus is the first fruits. (1 Cor 15:20)
The second phase of this one harvest would be the "main harvest" which would be to us as the "rapture"
The last phase of this "one" harvest" is called "the gleaning" which to us would be the resurrection of the "tribulations saints" at Jesus second coming. When all three of these phases is completed then "the one harvest is complete", and then there will be one thousand years between the Harvest (resurrection) of God's people and resurrection of the wicked.

If you do not understand this then you will never be able conconcile scriptures concerning the resurrection. Go back and study the Old Testament concerning the Harvest in which God commanded his people to observe for hundreds of years.

 

[Waggles]

Better get ready for a very bumpy ride. 2017 will be the commencement of much war beginning in Syria and then coming into Israel.
Once Israel is involved then other Islamic tribes will respond and gather to attack.

2017 will be another Year of Jubilee - where the land will be returned back to its original owners; and debts cancelled, and captives set free.
Fifty years since 1967 when the Jews regained and controlled all of Judea and Samaria, along with all of Jerusalem.
Apart from Gaza, the only major vital real estate requiring restoration is the Temple Mount - Mount Zion or Mount Moriah (where Abraham offered
Isaac). At present it is occupied by the "abomination of desolation" - the Dome of the Rock (a truly blasphemous occupation by false religion on
this most sacred of sites to Judaism and to God).
When the Jews move to reclaim this precious real estate - all hell will break loose and and there will be war.
Russia is obsessed with NATO and European power expansion against her. Could be the year that Rome gets nuked.

Keep your eye on Donald Trump who has promised to move the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem and to recognize Jerusalem as the
capital city of Israel. That will be a political earthquake of magnitude 10. Islamic nations will respond to this with violence and
terrorism.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY the notion of a secret rapture of "the" church before all this tribulation is unscriptural.
The gospels and the epistles teach us to look forward to the return of Christ Jesus in power and glory coming with his
angels to gather the elect. We are encouraged to keep ourselves pure and worthy as the bride to be called up to the marriage feast
and then be forever with the Lord.

GIVEN the dreadful and lax state of much of what passes for Christianity these days, I ask which church or body of believers are
worthy to be called up to glory and to be spared enduring the great tribulation?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life,
and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,
and to stand before the Son of man.
Luke 21:34-36

 

[pajaro]

The entire "Left Behind" enterpri$e is based upon a perversion of Scripture: "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." - Matt. 24:40, 41. Isn't that the rapture? No, that's a classic twist created by the Rapture Camp.

Jesus says His return will be just like in the days of Noah. He says all of Noah's neighbors were unsaved people who were eating and drinking and they didn't know the flood was coming until it came and "took them all away." So when the flood came, who got "taken away"? The evil ones, who didn't know the judgement was coming: "And knew not until the flood came and took them all away; So shall also the coming of the son of man be." - Matt. 24:39.

Jesus says the one will be taken and the other left. So who got taken? The one who was destroyed, just as it was in the days of Noah. In fact, when the disciples asked where they were taken, Jesus said look for the vultures, for that's where the dead bodies will be: "And they answered and said unto Him, Where Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is there will the eagles be gathered together." - Luke 17:37. IOW, you want to be left behind!

Thanks backNforth. That is exactly as I see it as well. The ones who are left are the saved true believers. The others are taken in judgment. You gave a nice example of the term 'taken' referring to the flood taking them away (figuratively). Here is an example of the word 'left' referring to saved persons remaining: "Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah."

B-A-C is to be commended for the nice collection of scriptures he gave pertaining to the subject, although I am not personally sure of his interpretation. B-A-C referred to the term taken as meaning 'taken up' but the word 'up' does not seem to appear in scripture there.

Concerning the classic 'rapture' scripture from 1 Thes 4 about meeting the Lord in the air, it should be noted that the Bible uses the term 'air' in the parable of the mustard seed to mean heaven, not the upper atmosphere of earth, whilst birds there are the true believers. It may be that 1 Thes 4 is meaning something different from zipping up into physical air. Further, Paul was 'caught up' prior to any supposed rapture. Some people have thought of this as him being privy to a little preview of the rapture but I am not so sure.

 

[Curtis]

There is no such a thing as a "secret" rapture for the believer, it is only a "secret" to those who are not going!!!

Which is why Jesus said
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

What happens if you are not watching, and praying?

As the Apostle Paul once said.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Only those who are walking in "darkness" will that day come as a thief in the night!!!

 

[B-A-C]

If there is no rapture, how can the people in Matt 24:39-42; and Luke 17:30-36; be "left"?

If I have a group of people (say 100) and I take 50 of them away. 50 are "left".
If I have the same group of people, and I come in the room to see them all, no one is "left" because everyone is there.
Why does it say ...
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

So even if you don't believe the rapture and you believe there is only the second coming, there is no getting away from the fact that at least temporarily (even if it's only for a few minutes)
that some will join with Jesus.. IN THE AIR... or IN THE CLOUDS.. and some will be left, (in a field alone, in a bed alone, in a mill alone)
They can not be alone, if the other person is still with them.

So there has to be a rapture, even if it's just a few seconds before the second coming.

 

[Waggles]

@B-A-C; @Dave M; @backNforth; @Hekuran; @Curtis; @pajaro;

The great advantage that I and my brothers & sisters have over pretty well all others - is that as a strict apostolic Pentecost Fellowship we still
conduct our Church meetings in compliance with 1Corinthians 14 and thereby operate the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Tongues, followed by interpretation, and up to a maximum of three prophecies.

Herein Jesus and our Father speak to us directly and clarify many issues of concern. More and more of late God speaks of tribulation through natural
disasters, but also through nuclear war that is coming very very soon.
Never ever does our Lord promise to spirit us away nor to remove any threat from us. Rather we are always encouraged to keep the faith and to keep on
exercising the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and to keep on praying in the Spirit (tongues) - for it is our salvation and protection.
The Church of God, the body of Christ is reassured of divine protection in these last days in accordance with Psalm 91.
No one is leaving the planet. The saints will rise up to meet their Lord and Saviour in the air when He returns in power and glory. Jesus' feet
will touch down on the Mount of Olives, and He, along with angels and transformed saints will enter into what remains of Jerusalem.

1 For, behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up,
saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 4:1-3

5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flies by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walks in darkness; nor for the destruction that wastes at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
Psalm 91:5-7

 

[Dave M]

Waggles said "Never ever does our Lord promise to spirit us away "


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the people who have died and were in Christ will rise first. 17 After that we who are still alive at that time will be gathered up with those who have died. We will be taken up in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air. And we will be with the Lord forever.

Sounds like the rapture to me, not my words but Gods , sounds like a promise to me. Wondering how you see this Waggles??

 

[Waggles]

Sounds like the rapture to me, not my words but Gods , sounds like a promise to me. Wondering how you see this Waggles??

Yes, this is at the last trumpet... when Jesus returns himself to collect OVERCOMERS - those who are victorious through the gospel and in
the Holy Spirit - who have been true and faithful from the beginning to the end.

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws nigh.
Luke 21:26-28

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not
prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thessalonians 4:15-16

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Corinthians 15:51-53

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Brothers @Dave M @Waggles

Please. I realize that you all want to make the strongest point for the position that you each have and are using scripture to back it up. However, in referencing 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 you have both massaged it to suit the position you hold to be true. I mean by this, is when each position was referenced one left out either V15 or V17 instead of quoting that section in its entirety.

If truth is really what is being sort for, then chopping up scripture even if it doesn't suit what position you are holding, is not the way to find it much less know it. Look at it completely since in truth these verses in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 hold much for both opposing camps to consider.

For me the real verses that we are not taking in greater consideration when we look at this chapter are the opening and closing verses of this subject matter. This is the reason the information you are disputing about was given and to be used for.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. ... 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13,18

As you continue the debate, I beg of you all that you keep these two points in mind when referencing this book, chapter, and verses.

I love you both my brothers.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[pajaro]

If there is no rapture, how can the people in Matt 24:39-42; and Luke 17:30-36; be "left"?

If I have a group of people (say 100) and I take 50 of them away. 50 are "left".
If I have the same group of people, and I come in the room to see them all, no one is "left" because everyone is there.
Why does it say ...
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

So even if you don't believe the rapture and you believe there is only the second coming, there is no getting away from the fact that at least temporarily (even if it's only for a few minutes)
that some will join with Jesus.. IN THE AIR... or IN THE CLOUDS.. and some will be left, (in a field alone, in a bed alone, in a mill alone)
They can not be alone, if the other person is still with them.

So there has to be a rapture, even if it's just a few seconds before the second coming.

Thanks B-A-C for your comments. I agree with you that there are two groups, the saved and the unsaved. The idea that seems to fit scripture to me is that the word 'taken' means taken in judgment. The Bible also uses phrases like 'taken into captivity'. It is like being taken in the flood of Noah (which means to perish in the spiritual sense, to be unsaved). The word 'left' fits scripture better in my opinion when talking about the remnant that is left, that remains true believing. So, I read it as one will be taken into captivity and one will be left in Christ. Most likely this is why the very next sentence in 1 Thes 4:17 talks about those who are alive and remain. They are the ones who are spiritually alive in Christ, the remnant of true believers who are left, who still remain in Christ. The term 'clouds' appears to be used in the Bible is terms of the judgment and glorification of Christ on the cross. It may be used here in 1 Thes 4:17 to indicate that during the judgment time of the great tribulation true believers are in heaven (meaning secure in Christ spiritually - 'in the air' in parable lingo). 'Caught up' may be a term indicating that we are spiritually raised up to be in fellowship with Christ spiritually and so we will always be with the Lord in that sense. Just posing this as a possible meaning.

 

[Curtis]

Yes, this is at the last trumpet... when Jesus returns himself to collect OVERCOMERS - those who are victorious through the gospel and in

The "last trump" in 1 Cor 15:52 has nothing in common with the seventh angel who blows his trumpet in the book of Revelations. God himself will come with a "voice" of an archangel, and with the "trump of God" (1 Th 4:16) Jesus is not an archangel, but he is the "head" of all principalities, and powers!! (Col 2:10) The word "archangel" simply means "messenger, chief, or first in order" Jesus is known as the "Angel of the Lord" or simply "the messenger of God"

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The voice, and trump of God is the actual "voice" of Jesus Christ himself, not an angel sounding a trumpet that denotes a certain time frame in which God works. It is the voice of Jesus Christ also known as the trump of God, or the voice of a archangel that will raise the dead back to life not a trumpet!!

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The sound of God's voice is like a trumpet....

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is Jesus's voice, and it will be his voice that will raise the dead, and catch away all his saints that are alive on planet earth before the tribulation even begins!!

The very first time God spoke on earth as a trumpet blast was on mount Sinai when he spoke to Moses.

Exo 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exo 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

The last time this will happen (last trump) will be at the rapture of his Church when the dead are raised back to life, and catching away of his Church.

 

[pajaro]

The "last trump" in 1 Cor 15:52 has nothing in common with the seventh angel who blows his trumpet in the book of Revelations. God himself will come with a "voice" of an archangel, and with the "trump of God" (1 Th 4:16) Jesus is not an archangel, but he is the "head" of all principalities, and powers!! (Col 2:10) The word "archangel" simply means "messenger, chief, or first in order" Jesus is known as the "Angel of the Lord" or simply "the messenger of God"

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The voice, and trump of God is the actual "voice" of Jesus Christ himself, not an angel sounding a trumpet that denotes a certain time frame in which God works. It is the voice of Jesus Christ also known as the trump of God, or the voice of a archangel that will raise the dead back to life not a trumpet!!

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The sound of God's voice is like a trumpet....

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This is Jesus's voice, and it will be his voice that will raise the dead, and catch away all his saints that are alive on planet earth before the tribulation even begins!!

The very first time God spoke on earth as a trumpet blast was on mount Sinai when he spoke to Moses.

Exo 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exo 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

The last time this will happen (last trump) will be at the rapture of his Church when the dead are raised back to life, and catching away of his Church.

I really liked the way you discuss the trump or trumpet as being the voice of God. This is the way I see it as well. This might simply mean the gospel or the Bible as well, I think, which is the voice of God (Psalm 78:1-2). I also appreciated that you understand that the angel of the Lord is Jesus, the messenger of God. I see Jesus as being the one meant when the Bible talks about the archangel, him being the chief messenger. Jesus is the chief messenger. So it makes complete sense to me that Jesus descends with his own voice, which is the voice of the archangel. One time that Jesus descends with his voice is when he came to earth for his earthly ministry. It may be that 1 Thes 4:16 is describing this when it says that the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout.