The moral law - is it still in place?

[willb]

Hi i have been thinking about this today....is the moral law still in place?

I mean everyone agrees that the cerimonial law is no longer because Christ was the perfect sacrifice. But the moral law shows what sin is, the definition has not changed so are we still under it?.

We also know that we are righteous not by works but by faith so where in all that does the moral law fit?.

 

[jari]

Hi will. Some one else probably knows more about this but all of the law is still in place. But we are not under the law anymore but in the new coveant that Christ made.
Maybe you knew that already?

 

[christserf]

"Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin. And the slave abideth not in the house forever but the Son abideth forever. If the Son, therefore, shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John 8:34-36.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Yes, willb, we are supposed to keep the moral law. The wonderful thing is that Jesus gives us the power to do so!

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[jiggyfly]

Galatians 3:1-5
1*Oh, foolish Galatians! What magician has cast an evil spell on you? For you used to see the meaning of Jesus Christ’s death as clearly as though I had shown you a signboard with a picture of Christ dying on the cross. 2*Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by keeping the law? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you believed the message you heard about Christ. 3*Have you lost your senses? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort? 4*You have suffered so much for the Good News. Surely it was not in vain, was it? Are you now going to just throw it all away?
5*I ask you again, does God give you the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you because you obey the law of Moses? Of course not! It is because you believe the message you heard about Christ

Galatians 5:1-4
1*So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2*Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3*I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4*For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

Hebrews 8:6-13
6*But our High Priest has been given a ministry that is far superior to the ministry of those who serve under the old laws, for he is the one who guarantees for us a better covenant with God, based on better promises.
7*If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8*But God himself found fault with the old one when he said:“The day will come, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9* This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.
10* But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their hearts
so they will obey them.I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11* And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their family,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will already know me.12* And I will forgive their wrongdoings,
and I will never again remember their sins.”*
13*When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.Romans 7:6
6*But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit.

Romans 8:1-14
1*So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus. 2*For the power* of the life-giving Spirit has freed you* through Christ Jesus from the power of sin that leads to death. 3*The law of Moses could not save us, because of our sinful nature. But God put into effect a different plan to save us. He sent his own Son in a human body like ours, except that ours are sinful. God destroyed sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins. 4*He did this so that the requirement of the law would be fully accomplished for us* who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.5*Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. 6 If your sinful nature controls your mind, there is death. But if the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace. 7*For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. 8*That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
9*But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them are not Christians at all.) 10 Since Christ lives within you, even though your body will die because of sin, your spirit is alive* because you have been made right with God. 11*The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as he raised Christ from the dead, he will give life to your mortal body by this same Spirit living within you.
12*So, dear brothers and sisters,* you have no obligation whatsoever to do what your sinful nature urges you to do. 13*For if you keep on following it, you will perish. But if through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from it* and its evil deeds, you will live. 14*For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children* of God.

 

[willb]

I have done some reading on this - Spurgeon sermons and i think they have been helpful.

He states that the law has a vital role to play - not that we can obey it (to think we can breaks the spirit of the law because we show pride) but that it highlights just how degenerate we are, humbling us - it shows our sin, we look into the perfect mirror and it shows every single crack...the purpose - it sends us running to Jesus in repentance and meekness realising that only through Him are we righteous. (paraphrase of it, if you have time goto biblebb and read his sermons they are very good). I can see a lot of truth in that. I believe still if we break a moral law of the old testament we sin, i still think its in place today. Its our position that has changed we are now clothed with the righteousness of Jesus and not of ourselves and if we become legalistic and try to do it in our own strenth its sin - pride to think we can become righteous in our own strenth!.

 

[christserf]

Hello all:

This is a short reply and will not cover all points.

First, I'm not saying that keeping the law saves us. We are saved by grace, but Jesus wants us to and gives us the power to keep His law. This is supported in the verses that I quoted above, I'll quote a few more.

Rom 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Gal 2:16-17 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Remember the definition of sin:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I hope to reply in full soon,

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[baruch]

34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Keep these two commandments and you keep the law.
Love can do no harm to your neighbours!

 

[gotime]

Moral law

The moral law or Ten commandments are still part of God's Kingdom for his people. Jesus himself said
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

many have claimed that to keep the Ten Commandments is legalism and rightly so unless we keep them out of love for God. ask yourself this question: Is it legalistic to obey God?

the ten commandments are summed up
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

the first 4 are love for God while the last six are love for both God and man.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jesus Himself said:
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
while revelation goes on to say that those who are saved will obey and believe in Jesus:
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

while mmany today are accepting that the Ten are still Gods law they often forget the 4th seventh day sabbath

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Take note here that the passage does not denote that these persons will be in heaven but rather they will be called least by those who are in heaven.

Jesus also told his apostles to remember the sabbath well after His crucifiction
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: what Jesus was talkin about took place in 70 ad

Isaiah says we will keep the sabbath in heaven:
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

There is much more but i think this is enough the Ten commandments are Gods character of love. so the issue is not do we keep them the answere is yes. but the real question is why or how and Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments.

All christians who believe in JEsus should Keep the law because they love GOd why because He saved us and gave us grace eternal life for free amen praise GOd.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus also told his apostles to remember the sabbath well after His crucifiction
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: what Jesus was talkin about took place in 70 ad

Isaiah says we will keep the sabbath in heaven:
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

All christians who believe in JEsus should Keep the law because they love GOd why because He saved us and gave us grace eternal life for free amen praise GOd.

I really don't see how you got Isaiah saying we will keep the sabbath in heaven??? He is merely referencing points on the calender to indicate that all flesh will worship God continuously. God's word clearly states that the sabbath along with the feasts and new moon festivals were just shadows of Christ.

Colossians 2:16&17
16*So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17*For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself.

2Corinthians 3:7-18
7*That old system of law etched in stone led to death, yet it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. 8*Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory when the Holy Spirit is giving life? 9*If the old covenant, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new covenant, which makes us right with God! 10*In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new covenant. 11 So if the old covenant, which has been set aside, was full of glory, then the new covenant, which remains forever, has far greater glory.12*Since this new covenant gives us such confidence, we can be very bold. 13*We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory fading away. 14*But the people’s minds were hardened, and even to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, a veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ. 15*Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand.
16*But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, then the veil is taken away. 17*Now, the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, he gives freedom. 18 And all of us have had that veil removed so that we can be mirrors that brightly reflect* the glory of the Lord. And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more.

It is crystal clear here that there are two covenants, an old and a new. It is also very clear that the law that was engraved into stone was very much a part of the old covenant. The law is no longer our reference point for behavior and attitude, it is Christ, period. Everything that God wants us to know about Him and his purpose and will is revealed in Christ, His Son. We are to be led by Christ via HolySpirit. Once you have the answer, do you still have need of hints? Once you arrive at your destination do you still need directions?

 

[gotime]

Colossians 2:16&17
16*So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new-moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17*For these rules were only shadows of the real thing, Christ himself.

2Corinthians 3:7-18
[/U][/B]

It is crystal clear here that there are two covenants, an old and a new. It is also very clear that the law that was engraved into stone was very much a part of the old covenant. The law is no longer our reference point for behavior and attitude, it is Christ, period. Everything that God wants us to know about Him and his purpose and will is revealed in Christ, His Son. We are to be led by Christ via HolySpirit. Once you have the answer, do you still have need of hints? Once you arrive at your destination do you still need directions?

Colossians 2:16&17 unfortianatly has been used many times to try pove the law or sabbath wrong this passage however if studied historically clearly reveals that Paul was in no way refering to the sabbath of the Ten commandments. why? one the issue that was being faced and addressed by Paul was about ceramonial law and ceramonial sabbaths not the ten commandment sabbath. second the issue of the sabbath of the 4th commandments was not an issue christians of the day accepted that the 7th day sabbath was part of God law this is why it is not discussed much.

and yes there is a new covenant which is symply the Blood of Jesus once for all rather than animal sacrifices over and over that is why it better. the law was a perpetual coventnat eg goes on and on forever. why did they need to sacrifice blood of animals ? because they broke the law same reason we need the grace of JEsus because we broke the law.

the law points out sin
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

for sin is breaking the law
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

why did Jesus die? to save us from sin

can the law save us? no

can Jesus save us? yes
from what ? our sin

so if we really love JEsus we will keep the law the best we can because we dont want to sin anymore even though this in itself does not save only the grace of JEsus saves.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

notice in the vision of John that he saw in heaven the ark of testament which is what the copy on earth was. hmmm what was the ark for? only reason for it is to hold the Holy law eg Ten commandments.
James calls the law: Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

notice here that James words it in a way that shows the importance of keeping the law but not being saved by it.

it all comes back to Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[jiggyfly]

Colossians 2:16&17 unfortianatly has been used many times to try pove the law or sabbath wrong this passage however if studied historically clearly reveals that Paul was in no way refering to the sabbath of the Ten commandments. why? one the issue that was being faced and addressed by Paul was about ceramonial law and ceramonial sabbaths not the ten commandment sabbath. second the issue of the sabbath of the 4th commandments was not an issue christians of the day accepted that the 7th day sabbath was part of God law this is why it is not discussed much.

.

I have seen this arguement concerning colossians 2 many times and no one has been able to suffuciently prove it. Why not address 2Corinthians 3 at the same time?

How about Hebrews 8:1-13
1*Here is the main point: Our High Priest sat down in the place of highest honor in heaven, at God’s right hand. 2*There he ministers in the sacred tent, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands.
3*And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. 4*If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law of Moses. 5*They serve in a place of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the design I have shown you here on the mountain.”* 6*But our High Priest has been given a ministry that is far superior to the ministry of those who serve under the old laws, for he is the one who guarantees for us a better covenant with God, based on better promises.
7*If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8*But God himself found fault with the old one when he said:
“The day will come, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9* This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.
10* But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their hearts
so they will obey them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11* And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their family,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will already know me.
12* And I will forgive their wrongdoings,
and I will never again remember their sins.”*
13*When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

and yes there is a new covenant which is symply the Blood of Jesus once for all rather than animal sacrifices over and over that is why it better. the law was a perpetual coventnat eg goes on and on forever. why did they need to sacrifice blood of animals ? because they broke the law same reason we need the grace of JEsus because we broke the law.

This is sad that you think all Jesus was and is a replacement blood sacrifice. As far as the Law being perpetual, what scriptures are you basing this on?

the law points out sin
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Very good, the law introduces us to sin. But it does not set anyone free from sin.

for sin is breaking the law
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

First, let's look at the following verses.
1John 3:4-6
4*Those who sin are opposed to the law of God, for all sin opposes the law of God. 5*And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in him. 6*So if we continue to live in him, we won’t sin either. But those who keep on sinning have never known him or understood who he is.

The real focus here in John's letter is not refraining from sin, it's abiding in Christ.

why did Jesus die? to save us from sin

can the law save us? no

can Jesus save us? yes
from what ? our sin

so if we really love JEsus we will keep the law the best we can because we dont want to sin anymore even though this in itself does not save only the grace of JEsus saves.

Again this is ONLY done by abiding in Jesus and the Law is no longer a guide to us it can only introduce us to sin. So if Jesus set us free from sin and then we go back to the law for guidance what do you think will happen? This is another reason for a new covenant it has better promises, like HolySpirit our new guide. The law is not our reference for behavior and attitude, Christ is and Father has planned this from the very beginning. Just study some of the old testament prophecies. The plumbline in Amos, is this speaking of the law or is it speaking of Christ?

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

notice in the vision of John that he saw in heaven the ark of testament which is what the copy on earth was. hmmm what was the ark for? only reason for it is to hold the Holy law eg Ten commandments.
James calls the law: Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The tabernacle and all it's components which includes the ark are types and symbols of Christ. The mercy seat which sat on top of the ark of the covenant again typifying Christ.

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

notice here that James words it in a way that shows the importance of keeping the law but not being saved by it.

it all comes back to Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The Law of liberty is not the same as the Law of sin and death. You should probably study first, the two main covenants the old and the new. There are several very good books that help with this kind of study, one I highly recommend is "The Transcendent Seed Of Abraham".

2Corinthians 1:17-22
17*You may be asking why I changed my plan. Hadn’t I made up my mind yet? Or am I like people of the world who say yes when they really mean no? 18*As surely as God is true, I am not that sort of person. My yes means yes 19*because Jesus Christ, the Son of God, never wavers between yes and no. He is the one whom Timothy, Silas,* and I preached to you, and he is the divine Yes—God’s affirmation. 20*For all of God’s promises have been fulfilled in him. That is why we say “Amen” when we give glory to God through Christ. 21*It is God who gives us, along with you, the ability to stand firm for Christ.* He has commissioned us, 22*and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment of everything he will give us.

Galatians 4:21-31
21*Listen to me, you who want to live under the law. Do you know what the law really says? 22*The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave-wife and one from his freeborn wife.* 23*The son of the slave-wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise. But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise.
24*Now these two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. Hagar, the slave-wife, represents Mount Sinai where people first became enslaved to the law. 25 And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery. 26*But Sarah, the free woman, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. And she is our mother. 27*That is what Isaiah meant when he prophesied,
“Rejoice, O childless woman!
Break forth into loud and joyful song,
even though you never gave birth to a child.
For the woman who could bear no children
now has more than all the other women!”*
28*And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac. 29 And we who are born of the Holy Spirit are persecuted by those who want us to keep the law, just as Isaac, the child of promise, was persecuted by Ishmael, the son of the slave-wife.30*But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the family inheritance with the free woman’s son.”* 31*So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, obligated to the law. We are children of the free woman, acceptable to God because of our faith.

 

[aksd]

The law - ceremonial or moral will always exist, since it is part of God's eternal word.

It's utility for our salvation, in this age of grace - not needed.

It's utility for serving as a guideline of how God desires that I conduct my life as His child - very pertinent.

If a new convert - fresh born again person were to ask me: 'okay now that I am God's child, how am I to live and what am I to do to make my heavenly father happy?'
My answer would be: 'use the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount as your guide lines. They will provide you the standards by which you will be able to ascertain if you are living a life pleasing to God.'

The law now serves to teach us about God's standards of Holiness and give us the knowledge of what sin is in His eyes. It is not there now to save us or make us holy and never was given for that purpose. Man's Righteuosness with God has always been by faith never by works.

 

[jiggyfly]

The law - ceremonial or moral will always exist, since it is part of God's eternal word.

It's utility for our salvation, in this age of grace - not needed.

It's utility for serving as a guideline of how God desires that I conduct my life as His child - very pertinent.

If a new convert - fresh born again person were to ask me: 'okay now that I am God's child, how am I to live and what am I to do to make my heavenly father happy?'
My answer would be: 'use the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount as your guide lines. They will provide you the standards by which you will be able to ascertain if you are living a life pleasing to God.'

The law now serves to teach us about God's standards of Holiness and give us the knowledge of what sin is in His eyes. It is not there now to save us or make us holy and never was given for that purpose. Man's Righteuosness with God has always been by faith never by works.

The new covenant clearly speaks against this. HolySpirit is our teacher and we are instructed to be led by Him not the law.

 

[gotime]

Ten Commandments

ok im goiing to look at this systematically

Who wrote the Ten Commandments?

Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
Exo 32:16 And the tables [were] the work of God, and the writing [was] the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

Answer: GOd wrote them with His own finger.

what is Gods definition of sin?

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is breaking God's Ten commandment Law so since the law of God is perfect:

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

and the comandments coveer the whole duty of man:

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.


Why did God give us the Ten Commandments?

Pro 29:18 Where [there is] no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy [is] he.

Pro 3:1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
Pro 3:2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Answer A: it is a guid to happy abundant living.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Answer B: to show the diff between right and wrong James likens the law to a mirror and is the only way to know if we are sinning.

Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as [it is] at this day.

Psa 119:117 Hold thou me up, and I shall be safe: and I will have respect unto thy statutes continually.
Psa 119:118 Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit [is] falsehood.

Answer C: to protect me from danger and tragedy.


Why is Gods law importatn to me personally?

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


Answer because the ten commandments are the standard by which God examines in the heavenly judgment.

Can Gods law ever be changed or abolished?

Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

Psa 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Psa 111:7 The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all his commandments [are] sure.
Psa 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness.

Answer: no they can not be changed or altured they are revealed principles of God's holy character eg

God is The Law is
Good Luke 18:19 1 Timothy 1:8
holy Isaiah 5:16 Romans 7:12
perfect Matthew 5:48 Psalm 19:7
Pure 1 John 3:2,3 Psalm 19:8
just Deuteronomy 32:4 Romans 7:12
true john 3:33 Psalm 19:9
spiritual 1 Corinthians 10:4 Romans 7:14
righteousness Jeremiah 23:6 Psalm 119:172
Faithfull 1 Corinthians 1:9 Psalm 119:86
Love 1 John 4:8 Romans 13:10
unchangeable James 1:17 Matthew 5:18
eternal Genesis 21:33 Psalm 111:7,8

notice that the law and GOd both have the same characteristics. the ten commandments are God's character in written form. we can no sooner change the law than we can change God.

Did Jesus abolich God's law while here on earth?

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Answer: No Jesus spacifically asserted that he did not come to destroy the law but to fullfill (or keep) it. instead of doing away with the law, Jesus magnified it:

Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.

for example Jesus pointed out that "thou shalt not kill" condemns anger "without a cause".

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

and hatered:

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

and that lust is adultery:

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus said himself:

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


will people who knowingly continue to break even one of God's commandments be saved?

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.


Answer: No they will be lost the bible says that when we knowingly break any command of GOd we are sinning:

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

only those who do His will will be saved.

Can anyone be saved by keeping the law?

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Answer: no we can not be saved by keeping the law only by grace of Jesus Christ.

Why then is the laaw an absolute essential for perfect Christian character?

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.


Answer: becasue the patter of good christian living is given in the lawl many people who cast out demons and praform miricals in his name will be lost:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

why becasue they did not bother to check their lives with His great Law pattern for christian living.

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

[gotime]

ten commandments cont.

What enables a truly converted Christian to follow the pattern fo God's law?

Heb 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Phi 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Answer: Christ not only pardons repentant sinners, but He restores in then the image of God. He brings them into harmony with His law through the power of His indwelling presence, "thou shalt not" then becomes a promise that the Christian will not steal, liem murder etc.

Is a christian who has faith and is living under grace freed from keeping the law?

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom 6:14 For sin [breaking Gods law] shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin [break the law], because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Answer: No the scripture tache the very opposite. Grace is like the governor's pardon to a prisoner. it forgives him, but it does not give him freedom to break one single law on the statute books. the forgiven person, living under grace will keep the law out of love and thankfullness for the grace given.

Are the Ten commandments reaffirmed in the NEw Testament?

cammandments new test old test
1 Matthew 4:10 Exodus 20:3
2 1John 5:21 exodus 20: 4-6
Acts 17:29
3 1 timothy 6:1 Exodus 20:7
4 Hebrews 4:4,9,10 Exodus 20 8-11
5 Matt 19:19 exo 20:12
6 Rom 13:9 exo 20:13
7 matt 19:18 exo 20:14
8 Rom 13:9 exo 20:15
9 Rom 13:9 exo 20:16
10 Rom 7:7 exo 20:17

are God's law and moses' law the same?

No they are not the same. Moses' law was the temporary ceramonial law of the old testament. It regulated the preisthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat drink offerings etc. all which forshadowed the cross, the law was added untill Jesus would come:Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


the ten commandments are foreversa 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness.

that there are two laws is made crystal clear in :

Dan 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
Dan 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that [is] written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions[ is breaking the ten commandments], till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

also note that God's law has existed as long as sin has existed. the Bible says:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

How does the Devil feel about those who pattern their lives after God's Ten commandments?

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Amswer: the devil hates the people who uphold God's law becaus ethe law is the pattern of right living. yet religious leaders always say we dont need to keep them:

Jesus says to them:Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
david said: Psa 119:26 I have declared my ways, and thou heardest me: teach me thy statutes.

It is obviouse to any one who truly searches the word of GOd in prayer that the Ten commandments are a standard of Gods kingdom. though they can not save us they are a reflection of His perfect Character adn we are told to be like Jesus. its up to you blessings.

 

[jiggyfly]

Gotime, why don't you try and address 2Corinthians 3:7-18 and Hebrews8:1-13 instead of avoiding them. There is a very BIG reason for God making a better covenant with us. Many might think that it has only to do with sacrifice for sin and that is very sad especially to Father. Just go and do a word search and find out what has pleased and is pleasing to God.

I notice that you make very little mention of the HolySpirit and His work within the follower of Christ
You did post a scripture but I think you overlooked something very important.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Notice that it doesn't say the law is fulfilled in us by walking after the law, because the law is not our guide or gage, HolySpirit is our guide and Jesus Christ is our gage.

Something else to ponder, when the law came God set judges in place to rule and discern according to the law, but eventually the people didn't want judges to rule them they wanted a king like the other nations. So was the law left to each individual to discern? We now have a better covenant so that the Author and supreme Judge of the law reside in us. Our behavior is regulated from within now rather than
outside. One way deals with motive and the other only deals with the result. The law itself can not give us a pure heart and clear conscious but Jesus the Christ can and it's via the HolySpirit living in us.

 

[gotime]

Gotime, why don't you try and address 2Corinthians 3:7-18 and Hebrews8:1-13 instead of avoiding them. There is a very BIG reason for God making a better covenant with us. Many might think that it has only to do with sacrifice for sin and that is very sad especially to Father. Just go and do a word search and find out what has pleased and is pleasing to God.

2 Corinthians 3:7-18

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:

I hope you are not using this passage to prove the law has passed it is abundantly clear here that the glory on moses face was that which departed. Paul refers to this like the passing away of the sacrificial system.

second we notice here the law written in stone lead to death this is true. but put it in its proper context eg. The letter [Law] was good but it had no power to rescue the sinner from the sentence of death in fact it condemned them to death. As originally given by God. the Law designed to promote life (Rom 7:10,11)and thus said to be "holy, adn just and good" (v. 12). But life came with obedience and death with disobedience. The law then put the sinner to death, for the "soul that sinneth it shall die" (eze. 18:4,20) the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) but the gospel was designed to forgive them and us and give life (ch 8:1-3) the law sentences the commandment breaker to death but the gospel redeems us and makes us live again (ps 51). so to say we can break them now is to say GOd dosent care if we sin anymore hmmm think about it.

10*In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new covenant. 11 So if the old covenant, which has been set aside, was full of glory, then the new covenant, which remains forever, has far greater glory.

again read hebrews the glory first of was the sacrificial system which was put in place because of transgretion of the law (ten commandments).
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

this verse discribes exactly that the law was added why because people sinned what is sin breaking the law clearly there are two.eg they broke the ten commandments which leads to death so the sacraficial systme or ceramonial law which forshadowed Jesus was added because they broke the ten commandments. so answering the question.

the first glory was the system that God put in for forgivness of sins through the blood of animals the ceramonial law. but this only pointed to JEsus the true sacrifice the better sacrifice the better glory.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law(ceramonial law sacrificial system which pointed to Jesus)? It was added because of transgressions (sin is transgression of the ten commandments Gods's pattern of life), till the seed should come (ceramonial law only lasted untill Jesus who it pointed to came and became the more glorius sacrifice) to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

18 And all of us have had that veil removed so that we can be mirrors that brightly reflect* the glory of the Lord. And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more.

going with the context paul uses here we can see that unlike the israelite who still is vailed adn could not look at God the Christian has the privalage of seeing that Glory as Moses did and hold intimate communion with Jesus.

thus we are through the power of God able to reflect the image of Jesus through the ministration of the Holy spirit and during our life walk draw closer and closer becoming more like His glorious character.

one must remember to use context and thus this selection of verses does nothing to what i have said earlier it is in agreement with the law of GOd.

thus Hebrews is also in agreement Jesus is the new and glorious covanent which replaced the old sacraficial system that pointed to JEsus in the first place.

remembering earlier i pointed out that the whole reason the sacraficial system was added was to one point to Jesus the better more glorious sacrifice once for all but also added becasue of sin which is transgression of the law (ten commandments) which is explained above.

there you have it now try to do the same you have ignored many verses that i have psted based on one vers which is missrepresented.

 

[jiggyfly]

I used this context in 2Cor.3 to show that Paul very clearly places the Law engraved in stone into and part of the Old Covenant. and so now address Hebrews 8 with this fact established.

 

[aksd]

Jiggy, pardon the expression, but I think you are missing the wood for the trees! We are not talking about being under any of the Old Testament Covenants, we are talking about the application of God's Commandments given in the Old Testamant.

There is no disputing the fact that we are no longer under any covenant except the covenant of Grace and it is Grace alone that saves us and having being saved we are empowered by God's Spirit to lead a life pleasing to Him and according to His commandments.

John 14:21-26:-
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

The commandments that the disciples then had were what we now have as the Ten Commandmants and then Jesus also taught them as in the Sermon on the Mount.

Also note that as per John14:26, The Holy Spirit will teach and bring to remembrance - only that which is already present in the memory can be brought to remembrance again.

Examine any lifestyle or any law - you will not find it outside the purview of the Ten Commandments. These Ten Commandments in a nutshell encompass anything that governs the relationship of man with God and man with man. There is no aspect of morality or virtue or righteousness that will fall outside these Ten commandments

Psalm119:89 Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven.
Psalm138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.

Has God at any place in the New Testament set aside His commandments or said that there is no need to remmember or follow them - and please, I am talking about His Eternal Word, not His covenants with the Israelites/Jews?

Why would God settle His Word forever in heaven and magnify it above His Name if it were to be rendered useless with the advent of the age of Grace?

Should we now just bunk the whole of Old Testament and maybe just use it as an interesting piece of history since its commandments and teachings no longer need to be applied in this age of Grace?

Should we stop having sermons and teachings from the Old Testament because we are now under Grace and not under the Old Testament covenants?

Okay let us leave all this wrangling aside. Jiggy, I have a request to you - can you please list out the characteristics of the life and walk of a Born Again Spirit filled Christian. I would like to know, as per your understanding of the subject, how this persons life and walk will be different from the Born Again Spirit filled Christian who uses The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount as guide lines for his Christian living.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggy, pardon the expression, but I think you are missing the wood for the trees! We are not talking about being under any of the Old Testament Covenants, we are talking about the application of God's Commandments given in the Old Testamant.

There is no disputing the fact that we are no longer under any covenant except the covenant of Grace and it is Grace alone that saves us and having being saved we are empowered by God's Spirit to lead a life pleasing to Him and according to His commandments.

John 14:21-26:-
21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."
22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?"
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

The commandments that the disciples then had were what we now have as the Ten Commandmants and then Jesus also taught them as in the Sermon on the Mount.

Also note that as per John14:26, The Holy Spirit will teach and bring to remembrance - only that which is already present in the memory can be brought to remembrance again.

Examine any lifestyle or any law - you will not find it outside the purview of the Ten Commandments. These Ten Commandments in a nutshell encompass anything that governs the relationship of man with God and man with man. There is no aspect of morality or virtue or righteousness that will fall outside these Ten commandments

Psalm119:89 Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven.
Psalm138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name.

Has God at any place in the New Testament set aside His commandments or said that there is no need to remmember or follow them - and please, I am talking about His Eternal Word, not His covenants with the Israelites/Jews?

Why would God settle His Word forever in heaven and magnify it above His Name if it were to be rendered useless with the advent of the age of Grace?

Should we now just bunk the whole of Old Testament and maybe just use it as an interesting piece of history since its commandments and teachings no longer need to be applied in this age of Grace?

Should we stop having sermons and teachings from the Old Testament because we are now under Grace and not under the Old Testament covenants?

Okay let us leave all this wrangling aside. Jiggy, I have a request to you - can you please list out the characteristics of the life and walk of a Born Again Spirit filled Christian. I would like to know, as per your understanding of the subject, how this persons life and walk will be different from the Born Again Spirit filled Christian who uses The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount as guide lines for his Christian living.

One is Spirit led and the other led by the letter and that's all the difference that need be pointed out. Being led of HolySpirit makes you a son and being led of the letter makes you religious. Muslims follow much of the same regulations as stated in the law of Moses, so what differentiates them from someone following the law of Moses. Read Paul's epistles, all of them. Thinking that one can follow the law and have the same outcome as one who follows HolySpirit, shows a lack of understanding concerning God's Plan and the Gospel of Christ.