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The grand deception

Member
(Matthew 24:23-24) " Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. {24} For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."


Emphasis added. Who are the elect?


(Romans 8:29-33) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. {30} Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. {31} What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? {32} He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? {33} Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."


So we see that the elect are the chosen of God, predestinated from the foundation of the earth to be His children. Baptists don’t like predestination, and I’m tired of debating it with them, it’s right here in the bible, read it, accept it, or continue to sweep it under the rug, you decide what is right.


We see “false Christs” listed separately from “false prophets” I find this extremely fascinating. I'm not going to go into the extensive study, but I will proclaim with confidence the Jesus in the NIV or the NKJV is not the same as the one in the KJV. He is stripped of deity, (thus false as the real Jesus has all diety) and it gets worse as translations like “new world bible” and “new living translation” come out. Again, I’m tired of debating this fact, if you don’t want to believe me, don’t. If you want to study the subject, do it.


Next “if it were possible” we can conclude by this statement that it is not possible to deceive the elect. So we could also use logic to say the opposite, if one is deceived, he cannot be of the elect. Are you being deceived today? Do you believe the deception of the prophets on CNN that tell you 9/11 was conducted by a couple of bearded Muslims armed with box cutters, that the intense heat of the jet fuel weakened steel but a paper passport of a hijacker made it safely to the ground below? Do you believe big brother has your best interest at heart? Do words like “bless God I’m a patriot” spew forth from your mouth as you delight in the largest military on earth blowing up women and children to control oil fields? Does your blood boil reading this? Perhaps you are deceived, my reader, and if you are deceived, get saved, it’s free and easy, even a caveman can do it.


(Romans 16:17-18) "¶Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. {18} For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."


This verse rang in my ear 2 weeks ago as I listened to a “guest speaker” spew forth a propaganda parade against “Muslim extremists” rivaling that of Hitler speaking of Jews. “Long beards, towels on their heads, and robes that dangle in the dirt,” he proclaimed with pompous vigor! “They knocked down our towers!” you could feel the marines in the room tense up ready to fight. Moms everywhere hugged their babies tight for fear of big scary “Muslim extremists.”


This is sickening, and I walked out of the building to pray alone. (Jeremiah 17:9) "¶The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"


Your enemy is not some profiled cave dweller, it is not a corporation or a government, it is not liberals or conservatives. Your greatest enemy is your own heart, don’t be deceived.
 
Loyal
Another verse not rendered that well in King James, here some other translations.

(GW) False messiahs and false prophets will appear. They will work spectacular, miraculous signs and do wonderful things to deceive, if possible, even those whom God has chosen.

(KJV) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(MSG) Fake Messiahs and lying preachers are going to pop up everywhere. Their impressive credentials and dazzling performances will pull the wool over the eyes of even those who ought to know better.

(NAS77) "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

(NASB) "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

(NLT) For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones.
 
Member

DHC

(Matthew 24:23-24)

(Romans 8:29-33) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. {30} Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. {31} What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? {32} He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? {33} Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."


So we see that the elect are the chosen of God, predestinated from the foundation of the earth to be His children. Baptists don’t like predestination, and I’m tired of debating it with them, it’s right here in the bible, read it, accept it, or continue to sweep it under the rug, you decide what is right.
Hello sintheticg.

You seem to be a KJV only advocate.

Are you also a Calvinist?

As I am not sure exactly what you are saying.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Greetings,

If we can look past silly stuff that only divides, we might see that the subject here is a matter of the heart.

It is the heart that the Lord judges and in judgement, elects or perhaps selects.

"Will you follow me?" says one...
and upon many saying "O yes, I will follow", there must be a discernment or judgement of which ones really have the heart of faithfulness to be followers.

A king looking for faithful followers must have his kingdom's interest in mind.
Many are called but few are chosen.
Why?

Anyone with the slightest morsel of wisdom knows that not everyone that gives lip-service will remain faithful through the course of battle.

God judges the heart.

The Bible tells us very plainly that "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9
Who but the LORD?

We also see that there are those referred to as the elect.
Whose elect?

Now, the point being made in the first post is that if there be an elect, then it stands to reason that there must be those who are not 'elect'.

If you have been deceived by false doctrines and false christs, then , get elected... but how?
Who gives the clean heart? Only by Jesus Christ the only begotten Son, given, for God so loved the world, can any man come to the Father.
It is faith that is the hearts cry, the heart's desire, the heart's measure; by grace you are saved by faith, not of works, lest any boast.

Election is dependent upon the hearts desire and faithful trust in the grace offered it.

The kingdom suffereth violence and the violent take it by force... they violently and forcefully press in to it trying to take it on their terms...
the king is looking for those who will remain faithful, only wanting the king's terms... only, always and ever wanting only ever the king's terms, which are for the kingdom and the honour and glory of the king.

There is much deception in the world. Should we bring that with us as we approach the king, expecting him to choose us.
Should we use the wisdom of the world and our own wisdom when serving the king? Or should we seek his will to be done...only?

The king is not interested in those who spend their redeemed time arguing over their opinions or those of others.
He seeks those who will love him at all times... greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends, not seeking his own, doing the will of the one whom he serves, without complaining but willingly, loving not their own lives nor leaning on their own understanding but found faithful to his word. his command, his will....

Many there be that say they have the king's best interest in mind and draw people unto themselves and their pernicious ways.
There are those who live their lives disputing the words of the king... rather than doing them....
are they following the king? Are they sure to be elect of the king? Or are they wise in their own eyes...


Beloved, be not deceived.

Follow Jesus.
@sintheticg they that wait upon the LORD shall... not grow weary... be not weary in well doing

also, how many foundations can be laid in and for a building? If the building has been planned beforehand, should the plans be followed regarding the foundations so that the whole building may stand? (do foundations differ from other bricks... if you have ever done building in stone, you will know that while there may be many stones that could be used to fill a foundation hole, you will set some apart for the foundation before you begin the building)

-------------------------------------------------------
@B-A-C and @DHC

why ?

be ye followers... not disputers.
-------------------------------------------------------

Proverbs 11:18
A wicked person earns deceptive wages, but the one who sows righteousness reaps a sure reward.




Bless you ...><>


Br. Bear
 
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Member
A question that comes to mind....why is it that the elect cannot be deceived?
Is it because of some innate characteristic of the genuine Christian that makes deception impossible? I think not, for that would remove their freewill, part of their humanity. I believe that the reason any Christian avoids deception is his/her cleaving to the truth as revealed in God's word. It is the Bible, and our faith and trust in the Spirit of God to lead us into what is truth, that protects us from being mislead. Anything that tends to lead away from truth must be rejected: this must include all tradition outside of the apostolic teachings and new 'translations' that distort or obscure the deity of Christ and His ministry, regardless of how politically correct, religiously acceptable or popular they may be.

God will not allow any of His children to be lead astray. But first we must obey Jesus' command to abide in Him. The moment we separate ourselves from Jesus we are in great danger. Only in Him can we hope to see His coming in peace.
 
Loyal
what is an elect?

There are 270 million people in the USA. Out of that number we had over 20 candidates just from the republicans and democrats, not to mention
the other candidates from other parties such as the socialists, liberterians, and independents. Out of all those candidates (who all wanted to be
president) only one was chosen. Even after he was chosen he did not get to be president for almost 4 months. During these 4 months he was known as
the "elect". The point being, they are only the elect AFTER they choose to be put in the position of being elected. We must choose Christ first!!!
Many are called, few are chosen.

2 Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Tim 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2 Tim 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
2 Tim 4:5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Just because you are or were a believer. Does NOT mean you cannot be deceived.
Be alert, be sober, test the scriptures, rebuke, reprove, do not be like the 10 virgins. They had lamps, they even had oil, but at some point they let it run out.

Many will turn aside from the truth. We are lying to people and doing them a great disservice if we tell them they cannot be deceived.

Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Acts 20:30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
 
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False Christ's are human rulers, dictators, monarchs and otherwise, who exalt themselves as god to be worshipped (See Thess 2:3-4). This worship comes in many forms, such as pledging allegiance, oath, to obsession and idolatry. In Vietnam for example, they have a picture of their deceased beloved leader in nearly every house above their household altar.

To not be deceived is simple, we just have to remember that the real Christ will descend from Heaven on a cloud. All false Christs come from the Earth and are on the Earth. False Christ's cannot and will not descend from Heaven on a cloud.
 
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Moderator
Staff Member
Election of Grace

“As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.”
- 1Cor 15:48

The head and members are of one nature, and not like that monstrous image which Nebuchadnezzar saw in his dream. The head was of fine gold, but the belly and thighs were of brass, the legs of iron, and the feet, part of iron and part of clay. Christ’s mystical body is no absurd combination of opposites; the members were mortal, and therefore Jesus died; the glorified head is immortal, and therefore the body is immortal too, for thus the record stands, “Because I live, ye shall live also.”
As is our loving Head, such is the body, and every member in particular.
A chosen Head and chosen members; an accepted Head, and accepted members; a living Head, and living members.
If the head be pure gold, all the parts of the body are of pure gold also. Thus is there a double union of nature as a basis for the closest communion. Pause here, devout reader, and see if thou canst without ecstatic amazement, contemplate the infinite condescension of the Son of God in thus exalting thy wretchedness into blessed union with his glory.

Thou art so mean that in remembrance of thy mortality, thou mayest say to corruption, “Thou art my father,” and to the worm, “Thou art my sister”; and yet in Christ thou art so honoured that thou canst say to the Almighty, “Abba, Father,” and to the Incarnate God, “Thou art my brother and my husband.”
Surely if relationships to ancient and noble families make men think highly of themselves, we have whereof to glory over the heads of them all. Let the poorest and most despised believer lay hold upon this privilege; let not a senseless indolence make him negligent to trace his pedigree, and let him suffer no foolish attachment to present vanities to occupy his thoughts to the exclusion of this glorious, this heavenly honour of union with Christ. CH Spurgeon


Beloved,

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Eph 1:12b in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

What are YOU doing with the grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord?
My sheep hear My voice... and they follow Me

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No-one comes to the Father unless the Father draws them...


Joh 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Eph 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
Eph 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
Eph 4:27 Neither give place to the devil.
Eph 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Mat 18:3 And (Jesus) said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Build each other up... don't tear each other down...
if indeed ye are His.

Our Father... Thy will be done.


Bless you ....><>


Br. Bear
 
Loyal
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Tim 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

It's Gods will that all men be saved. (not some, or part)
 
Loyal
The elect may get fooled but will not stay decieved because they have the Spirit to bring them back to the truth.
The Holy Spirit can be resisted.

Acts 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Also just because have it doesn't mean you can't lose it.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
 
Member
(Matthew 24:23-24) " Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. {24} For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."


Emphasis added. Who are the elect?


(Romans 8:29-33) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. {30} Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. {31} What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? {32} He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? {33} Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."


So we see that the elect are the chosen of God, predestinated from the foundation of the earth to be His children. Baptists don’t like predestination, and I’m tired of debating it with them, it’s right here in the bible, read it, accept it, or continue to sweep it under the rug, you decide what is right.


We see “false Christs” listed separately from “false prophets” I find this extremely fascinating. I'm not going to go into the extensive study, but I will proclaim with confidence the Jesus in the NIV or the NKJV is not the same as the one in the KJV. He is stripped of deity, (thus false as the real Jesus has all diety) and it gets worse as translations like “new world bible” and “new living translation” come out. Again, I’m tired of debating this fact, if you don’t want to believe me, don’t. If you want to study the subject, do it.


Next “if it were possible” we can conclude by this statement that it is not possible to deceive the elect. So we could also use logic to say the opposite, if one is deceived, he cannot be of the elect. Are you being deceived today? Do you believe the deception of the prophets on CNN that tell you 9/11 was conducted by a couple of bearded Muslims armed with box cutters, that the intense heat of the jet fuel weakened steel but a paper passport of a hijacker made it safely to the ground below? Do you believe big brother has your best interest at heart? Do words like “bless God I’m a patriot” spew forth from your mouth as you delight in the largest military on earth blowing up women and children to control oil fields? Does your blood boil reading this? Perhaps you are deceived, my reader, and if you are deceived, get saved, it’s free and easy, even a caveman can do it.


(Romans 16:17-18) "¶Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. {18} For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."


This verse rang in my ear 2 weeks ago as I listened to a “guest speaker” spew forth a propaganda parade against “Muslim extremists” rivaling that of Hitler speaking of Jews. “Long beards, towels on their heads, and robes that dangle in the dirt,” he proclaimed with pompous vigor! “They knocked down our towers!” you could feel the marines in the room tense up ready to fight. Moms everywhere hugged their babies tight for fear of big scary “Muslim extremists.”


This is sickening, and I walked out of the building to pray alone. (Jeremiah 17:9) "¶The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"


Your enemy is not some profiled cave dweller, it is not a corporation or a government, it is not liberals or conservatives. Your greatest enemy is your own heart, don’t be deceived.


Grettings Sintheticg: I am not sure where you heard that Baptist do not believe in predestination, but it just is not correct. Many Baptist Seminaries in the USA do teach predestination. So not all Baptist's are a like any more that all protestants are a like.

You are pretty clear about being a "King James Bible only person". Frankly I have found most Christians seldom read the Bible, and that is a very sad situation, so I am glad you are devoted to reading the Bible on a regular basis.

However I have found in my years of study that often those who are "KJV Onl;y" believers that they repeat what someone else has studied. The problem is that there is always more to the story that gets left out. If one wants to be autheniticly "KJV Only" that you are missing 22 books that were in the KJV until 1885, that's when the Apocrypha was removed. If the KJV Bible is the ONLY true version then should the Apocrypha still not be in there?

Here is what I never see anyone say when they express the KJV is the only really inspired Bible. KING jAMES ORDERED THAT THE new BIBLE NOT BE A NEW TRANSLATION! The mais Bible used for the KJV was the Latinized Bishops Bible of 1568. However the translators relied heavly from the Geneva, Tyndale, and the Catholic Douay-Rheims Bible. King James was influenced by the Catholic Church to reject the Geneva Bible, because of the extensive notes, some of which challenged the authority of the Catholic Church and the Church of England.

There have been several revisions of the King James Bible, which begs me to ask did each revision become more closer to being more inspired by God or did each revision get a little further away from the really inspired Bible? There are many questions that are never addressed by KJV Only believers about the KJV Bible. Perhaps the saddest issue the way KJV Only people openly blaspheme the New American Standard Bible translation. I have read garbage about one person who they say was involved with the NASB who NEVER had anything to do with it. When lies are told to get a point across against a translation of the BIble, to defend the insperation of the KJV Bible than God is NOT honnored or pleased, and surely does not demonstrate Christianity in any way whatsoever. The point is NO BIBLE IS PERFECT! As long as humans are involved there is mistakes made. To translate from Greek and Hebrew in to English in a direct word for word, is not possible. Exact word for word from one language into another language, there are words that only one language has that another does not have any equal word, only a similar meaning word can be close but not exact.

Is the KJV Bible the ONLT inspired Bible Christians should use? For some that think so that's fine, but in reality the answer is without a doubt no.



Material was developed and aquired from.

Earliest New Testament Translations
An Interliner Comparison in Modern English

Compiled by
Clayton G. Poter

Dec. 21, 2007


GENEVA BIBLE 1599 (permission granted for link)
 
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To who asked if I'm Calvinist the answer is the more mature I become in Christ the more I realize how little I am in comparison to him, by default I become more calvinistic in nature, he simply doesn't need me, but by grace allows me to even read his word.

I'm sick of offering plates, attendance records, 501c3's, tax write offs, fancy buildings, emotional songs, guest speakers with hidden agendas, pastors not sharing the pulpit, fancy paid choirs, worship leaders, blind military worship, and people labeling "us" vs. "Them" in regards to "sinners".

Such were some of you, the scriptures say. Why can't we read scripture and discern it? Why when I ask pastors about predestination they reject it and start talking free will? How are the 2 opposed? God knew you would choose him, he's not bound by time. He knows when you will die and when you would receive his Son.

I'm not "sewing seeds of contention" between brethren. I'm asking us all to not be deceived. I'm having a hard time believing you are truly of the elect if you believe the garbage the media and political parties are feeding us. Most "Christians" I know still think republicans are Christians and will fix the us if elected. It's Orwellian double think at its finest.
 
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(Matthew 24:23-24) " Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. {24} For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The certain implication of "if it were possible, the false prophets shall deceive the very elect" is that those who are deceived into following the false prophets are not the elect. But - we cannot know for sure which of those deceived by the false prophets into following their false doctrines will come out of the false doctrines and out of the deception into the knowledge of the truth.

And since a great many now in the churches are deceived by the false prophets and follow them, then the elect are very few. This is why a guy who I know said in 2012 that in the last days the 144,000 and the elect are one and the same. He believes the number 144,000 is not literal, but is itself metaphoric. The false prophets, however, say that the 144,000 are either all the elect of all ages, or that they are all male virgin Jews, during the tribulation after the church has been raptured and God turns again to save all of Old Covenant Israel which, for some reason, he was unable to do before. His mission to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel was fulfilled in the remnant who did accept him, that remnant of Romans 11: 5, saved according to the election of grace.

The present day false prophets in the churches do not fully understand and teach that people become the elect by being born again in Christ, becoming new creatures, so the old mind has passed away, and they have the mind of Christ in them, though they are still flesh and blood. Christ demands that all be changed, transformed as Paul says in Romans 12: 2, to enter the kingdom of God which is within them, that is, to become members of the elect. The false prophets teach that a procedure or rigmarole of joining a church, making an alter call, citing a standard prayer, being baptized etc etc and accepting their false Christ beings about salvation. The false prophets generally cite only John 3: 16 and Romans 10: 13, and won't go to II Thessalonians 2: 10-12. The result is often that the person thinks he is saved, and even has the "new life" of being born again, when, in fact, he has only undergone a kind of emotional experience within a collective or group dynamic of large congregation and preacher, and is not changed from the condition of the natural man who does not receive the things of the Holy Spirit.

II Peter 2: 1-3 is a very important text to add to Matthew 24: 11 and Matthew 24: 23-24.
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[TD="align: left"]"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."

The new translations have to be avoided for II Peter 2: 1-3 because the Greek verb form from emporoi, merchants, which is emporeusontai, is used as a metaphor, to make merchandise of you, but is translated as exploit which makes it literal. The spiritual power of the metaphor is lost when the Greek verb is made literal. It is metaphoric because people are not literally merchandise. To make merchandise of them means to reduce them back down toward being mere "merchandise," back down toward the spiritual state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14. There are some other heavily metaphoric texts - in the Book of Revelation - 12: 15-17, and 9: 16-19 that also deal with the work of the huge number of false prophets. But Revelation 9: 16-19 is difficult and it is impossible for those in the churches influenced by dispensationalism to see verses 16-19 as being metaphoric for the work of the false prophets when verse 20 appears to be literal. The flood which the serpent sends out of his mouth in Revelation 12; 15-17 is not that difficult to see as metaphoric for the work of the false prophets, though the tradition of men interpretation of the woman as the church dominates the entire chapter. The wilderness as a metaphor is not understood in the churches dominated by the false prophets. The remnant who have the testimony of Jesus Christ is seen in Revelation 12: 17 and there the dragon tries to make war with them, but the implication is that the flood out of the dragon's mouth does not overcome the remnant. I don't fully understand yet the metaphor about the earth in verse 16 swallowing up the flood from the mouth of the serpent-dragon. If we go to Daniel 11: 33 on those who understand instructing many, we can see that the remnant is one thing the Lord uses to spiritually defeat the flood from the mouth of the serpent, for a larger remnant within the system who come out into the wilderness. The flood out of the mouth of the serpent is the false doctrines that come out of the mouths of the false prophets..[/TD]
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To who asked if I'm Calvinist the answer is the more mature I become in Christ the more I realize how little I am in comparison to him, by default I become more calvinistic in nature, he simply doesn't need me, but by grace allows me to even read his word.

I'm sick of offering plates, attendance records, 501c3's, tax write offs, fancy buildings, emotional songs, guest speakers with hidden agendas, pastors not sharing the pulpit, fancy paid choirs, worship leaders, blind military worship, and people labeling "us" vs. "Them" in regards to "sinners".

Such were some of you, the scriptures say. Why can't we read scripture and discern it? Why when I ask pastors about predestination they reject it and start talking free will? How are the 2 opposed? God knew you would choose him, he's not bound by time. He knows when you will die and when you would receive his Son.

I'm not "sewing seeds of contention" between brethren. I'm asking us all to not be deceived. I'm having a hard time believing you are truly of the elect if you believe the garbage the media and political parties are feeding us. Most "Christians" I know still think republicans are Christians and will fix the us if elected. It's Orwellian double think at its finest.


You sound very discouraged. Have you found the right church that has even most of the things you are looking for? I am concerned when anyone uses words like "most" "always" "many". Are you are a hard person to please?

How would you suggest the church keeps the lights on, pays the water, trash, and other bills? I suppose you could do like the Amish and the church meets in a home, pews are taken by horse drawn wagons to the next house for services. A pastor is elected for one year, and a new one from the members is chosen for the following year. This has worked well for a couple of centuries and it just might be what you are looking for. They have no musical instruments, and no one is paid anything! This is as basic as the "church gets today".

I don't know where you live, but here in the Missouri area I live in there are very few "fancy churches". 501c3 is not required UNLESS the church members want to deduct the amount they give off their taxes. My wife and I give but we give cash only with a dollar bill on the outside so no one knows who gave it. Frankly I don't believe anyone but the LORD needs to know what I give. I make so little I no longer have to file tax reports. I agree that church should not be 501c3, that way a preacher can preach without government control, unless you live in countries like Canada.

Frankly I know there is no perfect church, and I have to accept the fact that I am so imperfect that most churches that are nearly so, would reject my becoming a member.
 
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When I was a teenager I joined a local Southern Baptist Church, but dropped out after a year or so. Then, some years later a friend took me to a house church very near a university campus. They were Pentecostal types who thought they were speaking in tongues. But they gave me the idea that Christians do not have to meet in huge buildings, sitting under preachers trained in seminaries on the interpretations of scripture by men leaning to their own understanding rather than on scripture itself. I didn't know about the 501c(3) issue then.

Most or almost all people who claim to be Christians attend churches in special church buildings and sit under preachers or priests trained in the interpretations of scripture rather than by learning scripture itself and allowing scripture to interpret scripture. And almost all such churches are IRS incorporated corporations.

So, how can you avoid coming under the influence of a preacher or priest who is a false prophet, unless you know what the truth is? If you have been taught by false prophets, how could you know the truth? Unless the Lord sends you something or someone to wake you up out of your false doctrines and help you begin to search for the truth? Again, you have to know something about scripture seen as scripture and not through the lenses of a tradition of men in order to be able to recognize a false prophet.
 
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DHC

So, how can you avoid coming under the influence of a preacher or priest who is a false prophet, unless you know what the truth is? If you have been taught by false prophets, how could you know the truth? Unless the Lord sends you something or someone to wake you up out of your false doctrines and help you begin to search for the truth? Again, you have to know something about scripture seen as scripture and not through the lenses of a tradition of men in order to be able to recognize a false prophet.
Hello Tulsa.

The theological interpretation you have been taught will be evident in the way you read
and understand certain verses. I will provide a simple example for this exercise.

How do you read and understand the following verses Tulsa?

1 Corinthians 12 (KJV)
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
 
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You sound very discouraged. Have you found the right church that has even most of the things you are looking for? I am concerned when anyone uses words like "most" "always" "many". Are you are a hard person to please?

How would you suggest the church keeps the lights on, pays the water, trash, and other bills? I suppose you could do like the Amish and the church meets in a home, pews are taken by horse drawn wagons to the next house for services. A pastor is elected for one year, and a new one from the members is chosen for the following year. This has worked well for a couple of centuries and it just might be what you are looking for. They have no musical instruments, and no one is paid anything! This is as basic as the "church gets today".

I don't know where you live, but here in the Missouri area I live in there are very few "fancy churches". 501c3 is not required UNLESS the church members want to deduct the amount they give off their taxes. My wife and I give but we give cash only with a dollar bill on the outside so no one knows who gave it. Frankly I don't believe anyone but the LORD needs to know what I give. I make so little I no longer have to file tax reports. I agree that church should not be 501c3, that way a preacher can preach without government control, unless you live in countries like Canada.

Frankly I know there is no perfect church, and I have to accept the fact that I am so imperfect that most churches that are nearly so, would reject my becoming a member.
i dont go to church to "be pleased" i want to challenge myself and those around me to eat the meat of scriptures. that's really all i care about. nothing drives me more insane than sitting down for a bible study and an usher barges in, counts everyone in the room and writes down the number in his log book, then has to seek out new visitors and make sure they get pamplets and sign something acknowledging they are there. im sitting there thinking if this was the first time i ever came to a church i'd immediately see it's all about numbers and money and i'd never be back. then everyone has to gossip for 20minutes, you say some prayers to prove you are spiritual and by the time you crack open the bible, read 2 chapters and everyone gives a brief interpretation of what it meant to them, it's time to go.

i dont get why we can't read a verse and meditate on it and see where it takes us.

"how do you pay bills?" trust God? i sat under preachers that said you have to tithe to be obedient to God and have his blessings in your life. When i ask what if you can't afford to give 10% they respond with you need to trust God. ok, so why dont you stop demanding a tithe and trust God to lead people to give? If we trust him to save hopeless souls from hell with a simple trust then why can't we trust him to lead people to give? because we fill churches with unsaved people and appease their emotions enough so they will pay the bills. im tired of sugar coating poop.

how about stick a box in the back of the church and if someone is lead to give they will. why do the plates have to be passed after everyone is on their emotional high from the music?

why do we decorate christmas trees next to the pulpit when it's in the bible as a pagan ritual? this is the sort of deception im talking about, i mean we all know christmas isnt the real birthday of Jesus. i dont have a problem with a family choosing to use the day how they want, but why are we decorating trees in churches when the tree is a representation of baal's shaft? we practice pagan rituals without a thought and dont realize that that itself is witchcraft. the power in witchcraft is deception. we are fed lies from the media, from schools, from politicians, from hollywood, and even a lot of pulpits. but rather than stand for what's right and call out what's wrong we have to play a middle ground so not to offend those unsaved who pay the bills.
 
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In Revelation 11: 8 the metaphoric dead bodies of the Two Witnesses are said to lie in the street of that great city, which is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. The Two Witnesses could have been called the "church" long ago when a huge percentage of the Christians who meet in what the New Testament called the ekklesia were the elect. The earlier verses of Revelation 11 do present a view or history of the early ekklesia as the meetings of Israel reborn in Christ, which is Zion transformed into Sion. Revelation 11: 3-6 is about the spiritual strength of the early ekklesia, before about the time of Origen (185-254 A.D.), whose "systematic" theology, man interpreting scripture by man leaning to his own understanding, took over the ekklesia of Sion.

But in Revelation 11: 7-8 the beast out of the bottomless pit - seen to be opened in Revelation 9: 1-3 - makes war with the metaphoric Two Witnesses, overcomes them and "kills" them. Then their "dead bodies," lie metaphorically in the street of Sodom and Egypt, where Christ was crucified, which is organized religion. "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children." Galatians 4: 25

But look at verse 11, where the Spirit of life from God enters into them and they stand again upon their feet, but this does not refer to their literal feet. They are brought back to life spiritually by the Spirit of life from God, after being spiritually killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit.The beast out of the bottomless pit empowers the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11, 24: 24, and II Peter 2: 1-3.

Then in Revelation 12: 6,14, the metaphoric woman goes into the wilderness which is a metaphor for being outside of "Egypt," and in this case outside of the organized religious system (Revelation 17: 1-11).

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters:
2. With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
7. And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition." Revelation 17: 1-11

The beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth is organized religion, which verse 5 calls Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth. In Revelation 13: 11-18 the second beast, called the False Prophet, who represents the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and 24: 24, causes in verse 12 the people to worship the first beast whose deadly wound was healed. The first beast of Revelation 13: 1-3 is a composite beast. Its government, but in part harks back to the first three beast empires of Daniel 7, and one of its heads in verse 3 had a deadly wound which was healed. The deadly wound was received in 70 A.D. and healed in 1948. And the second beast, the False Prophet, who runs the church, is said in verse14 to cause people to make an image to the first beast whose deadly wound was healed. The church becomes like the first beast whose deadly wound was healed - in 1948. The church also become an image of the Beast seen in Revelation 13: 1-2, in that the church comes under that "Big Beast" government as an Internal Revenue Service incorporated corporation.

But in Revelation 12: 15-17 the serpent casts a flood out of his mouth after the woman, and goes to make war with the woman and her seed the remnant. This flood out of the mouth of the serpent is not read by most in the churches as a metaphor about the work of the many false prophets of Matthew 24: 11 and 24: 24. The flood coming out of the mouth of the serpent is the false doctrines spoken by the false prophets. They are seen also in II Peter 2: 1-3, where they bring in damnable heresies or false teachings, and with feigned words make merchandise of you, another metaphor saying they change you into "merchandise" by their false teachings. They reduce you to the level of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14 who does not receive the things of the Spirit.
 
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DHC



Then in Revelation 12: 6,14, the metaphoric woman goes into the wilderness which is a metaphor for being outside of "Egypt," and in this case outside of the organized religious system (Revelation 17: 1-11).
Hello Tulsa.

I disagree with the interpretation of the harlot as an organized religious system.

God has described the harlot in very great detail and for a very good reason.

So that the reader may read the check list, point by point, and confirm
that the suspected harlot is in fact the real harlot.

Revelations 17 and 18.

i) The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet

ii) Having in her hand a gold cup full of abominations

iii) Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains
on which the woman sits

iv) The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth

v) The merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality

vi) Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins

vii) I sit as a queen and I am not a widow, and will never see mourning.

viii) And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints

viii) For your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were
deceived by your sorcery

A great city that sits on seven hills, her boast is she is the one true church (queen).

A gold cup in her hand, there is only one candidate that satisfies this check list!
 

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