• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 11,000 members today

    Register Log In

The End Times Controversy

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Member
So, Mr. Lahaye came out with a new book to critique preterism. Has anyone read it? If so, what did you think?

I havn't read it. I've heard it wasn't very solid, scripturally speaking.

God bless,
Bill

p.s. I figured this would be the most appropriate room. If it's not...whoops!
 
Member
Sorry Shaggy . I never heard of it . Let me know what you find out . :happy:hone:
Mike
 
Member
Maybe it would help us if you gave us an explanation of what preterism is??

All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
Member
As I understand it, a Preterist is one who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled.

Are you speaking of the book, "The Merciful God Of Prophecy"?

Let us know what you find out?

God Bless
Your Pastor T
 
Member
Best question to ask a preterist is does he/she still take communion? If they say yes, then ask them why?...if Christ returned in 70AD then theres no more need for it. He said to do this till he comes...

God bless you all
 
Member
YourPastorT said:
"The Merciful God Of Prophecy"
No, it's a pretty new book. Maybe I can look it up on the internet.

Adstar said:
Maybe it would help us if you gave us an explanation of what preterism is??
Preterism is the belief that the prophecies of the end times (Daniel, Matthew 23-25, Revelation and other portions of the NT) are fullfilled, and usually places that fulfillment within the context of Christ's first century generation.

Most preterists see the culmination of the end times events as the siege and destruction of Jerusalem and God's judgement on the apostate economy of the old Jewish state around the year AD 70. Thus, preterists believe that the end times heralded the end of the Old Covenent age, rather than the end of the physical world.

It's a very interesting approach, and one I've come to adopt, in fact.

The greatest basis for preterism, in my opinion, are the time statements contained in the New Testament, including Christ's predictions and promises, which continually place the fulfillment of those prophecies in the context of the first century. For example...

Matthew 10:23 - "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come."

Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Matthew 26:64 - "Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, 'Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.'"

...and very emphatic is...
Hebrews 10:37 - "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry."

There are more, but I won't post five pages of text here. David Green did a nice compilation, though (101 Preterist Time Indicators)

I also found a nice little outline: Outline (though, I don't necessarily agree with all of what's on there)

Well, I think that's a rather decent explaination. Sorry I didn't clarify earlier. I sometimes forget that it's a slightly obscure belief in most Christian circles.

If you have any questions (I assume you will), I'll do my best to answer them in a scripturally satisfying way. PM or email (PM for my email) me if such a discussion wouldn't be welcome here.

Fellowservant said:
still take communion?
I choose not to, usually, though I see no problem with people who choose to continue. He never commanded them to cease taking communion after his return. I don't have any problem taking it myself, in fact, as I would not wish to offend by overly resisting my brothers' Christian hospitality.

Adstar said:
All Praise The Ancient of Days
Agreed! :smile:

God bless,
Bill
 
Member
Shaggy Flasko said:
Matthew 10:23 - "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come."
Be come where? to meet them? Also Christ does a little prophesying here as well..preterist are reading a literal and spiritual book, and taking to much of these prophecies literal.

Context?.. In the book of Psalms, did King David really have his hands and his feet pierced? Did they really cast lots for his garments? Sometimes prophecy needs to be taken out of context. And that is a fact.


Shaggy Flasko said:
Matthew 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Likely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost...(coming of the kingdom with power) there i is a spiritual kingdom and a literal kingdom of Christ. One is in us now, Christ in you the HOPE of GLORY (ie) the kingdom of God in you... the other is when Jesus Christ and the saint's will rule the WORLD with a ROD of IRON...and that is yet to come. Also dont forget the blessed HOPE of the believer Tit 2:13, Where is your resurrected body, if Christ has returned to rule the WORLD with a rod of iron?


Shaggy Flasko said:
Matthew 24:34 - "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

What generation? the one hes talking about, the Hearafter one...this has not happened yet. Hearafter means the future, how long? only God knows that answer.


Shaggy Flasko said:
Matthew 26:64 - "Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, 'Hereafter shall ye SEE the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.'"
So Pilate and the rest SEEN him, but we can't?




Shaggy Flasko said:
...and very emphatic is...
Hebrews 10:37 - "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry."

Remember what Peter said 2Pe 3:8, one day with the lord is as a thousand years. And why did he say it? because God is trying to save as many of us as possible. I wouldn't be saved right now if that were not true. And this goes for all the saints who are living today.


Shaggy Flasko said:
...I would not wish to offend...

Don't take the blessed hope away from the saints..if you dont want to offend.


Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
 
Member
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1Th 4

When did the good news become old news?
Only those watching and waiting for His return, have any hope in this
world!
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Glory to God!
 
Member
(note: Sometimes I use capitals. I'm not yelling, it's just for emphasis.)

Fellowservant said:
Be come where? to meet them? Also Christ does a little prophesying here as well..preterist are reading a literal and spiritual book, and taking to much of these prophecies literal.
Hmm, so then Christ, when speaking to his disciples in a simple and straightforward manner, was speaking in a convoluted, spiritual manner. There is nothing that suggests that Christ was speaking figuratively, or symbolically.

He made simple, specific predictions. Why did he mean something different than what he said for no apparent reason?

However, when the book of Revelation (a book presented in a vision of prophecy) speaks of a thousand year reign along with Micheal physically binding a giant dragon, along with a giant city floating out of heaven and landing on the earth, it MUST be physical and literal. Perhaps it is not me who has mistaken spiritual and physical (or literal and symbolic/figurative) language.

preterist are reading a literal and spiritual book, and taking to much of these prophecies literal.
Are spiritual things not literal, or even, not real? Why not give some evidence that Christ was not speaking plainly to his disciples?

Context?.. In the book of Psalms, did King David really have his hands and his feet pierced? Did they really cast lots for his garments? Sometimes prophecy needs to be taken out of context. And that is a fact.
What?!

Context (according to merriam webster)
1 : the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning
2 : the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs

So, sometimes, in order to understand prophecy, we must disregard that which may give up insight into its meaning. That's not a fact, but nonsense. The ONLY way to discern prophecy is through SCRIPTURE: it's CONTEXT with reference to SCRIPTURE! CONTEXT determins whether a passage is literal or figurative or symbolic and spiritual or physical, NOT the reader's preconceived understanding.

If you take it out of its context, you are simply making stuff up. Why not give the Word of God, written, more credibility than personal theology?

Likely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost...(coming of the kingdom with power) there i is a spiritual kingdom and a literal kingdom of Christ. One is in us now, Christ in you the HOPE of GLORY (ie) the kingdom of God in you... the other is when Jesus Christ and the saint's will rule the WORLD with a ROD of IRON...and that is yet to come.
Are you saying that there isn't really a spiritual kingdom of God, that it's just some kind of metaphor? Provide scriptural proof that there are two kingdoms of God, I've only heard of one: THE kingdom of God.

Matthew 16
24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This is not a description of pentecost, but of Christ's parousia.

Also dont forget the blessed HOPE of the believer Tit 2:13, Where is your resurrected body, if Christ has returned to rule the WORLD with a rod of iron?
Well let's look to 1 Corinthians 15 for an excellent explaination.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

So, if spiritual things are not "literal", then the resurrection is not "literal". However, the resurrection is a literal resurrection, but a spiritual one, the resurrection of the spirit in Christ.

What generation? the one hes talking about, the Hearafter one...this has not happened yet. Hearafter means the future, how long? only God knows that answer.
Did you happen to read the CONTEXT of that verse before posting? I didn't find the word "hereafter" applied to generation in that text. He did say "this generation", which, in the most plain and simple terms, would refer to "this generation", or the generation of people that were listening to him as he spoke those words.

So Pilate and the rest SEEN him, but we can't?
Ah, here's a good question. I'd like to make a note here about interpretation of Christ's prophecies.

1. We know that, at the time it was spoken, Christ was 100% correct in everything he said. Therefore, we know that "the chief priests, and elders, and all the council" or Ciaphas, the high priest, DID see Christ coming on the clouds in glory in power. Do you believe Christ was wrong?

2. Therefore, because of the question you raise (they saw him, why can't we?) and an apparent discrepency, we must take to the scriptures to find out what these words meant to the ORIGINAL AUDIENCE, something called "audience relevance".

Let's look at the references to prophetic clouds in the Old Testament (he's done it before). It was a symbol of God coming upon nations or people in judgement.

Look at Isaiah 19:1, Psalm 18:7-15, and Micah 1:3-4. What significance did clouds have to the Jews (especially the high priest and council, who were well familiar with the Old Testament writings).

They meant JUDGEMENT! Not a physical visit from above. It makes sense, also in light of Matthew 23 and Christ's curse on that generation.

Remember what Peter said 2Pe 3:8, one day with the lord is as a thousand years. And why did he say it?
Is it because time has no meaning to him, because he has no conception of a "generation" or "For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry"? This statement is not God's excuse for a two millennia non-fulfillment, but a promise of faithfulness.

because God is trying to save as many of us as possible. I wouldn't be saved right now if that were not true. And this goes for all the saints who are living today.
That would be accurate if Christ's parousia was an end of the physical world, but it isn't. The church of that time was anticipating the acceptance of Christ by all those Jews and Gentiles before the judgement on the apostate Jewish state. Men are still being saved because the gates of Jerusalem will never close.

2 Peter 3:9 - "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

How do men count slackness? Is forty years a long time? Yes, it seems like a very long time to a man, especially one under persecution from Jewish and Roman authorities.

Thank goodness that Christ was right, that some would live to see the fulfillment of their hope and that he would not leave them as a false prophet.

Don't take the blessed hope away from the saints..if you dont want to offend

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Why claim that Christ has deferred the hope in which all Christians rely. I've not taken the blessed hope, but proclaimed its FULFILLMENT!
Futurist theology has robbed Christians of the hope of Christ by saying that he has not fulfilled his promise, leaving many only with an unfulfilled promise and unfulfilled prophecy.

It is true...
Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. - Proverbs 13:12

Soldier of God,
I can't comment on this article much, because I can't really figure out what it's talking about. I'm speaking of scripture, not ancient Jewish apocrypha!

We noted that the idea that Bible "prophecy" is "past," as declared by uninspired men, is called "Preterism,"
Not really, not all prophecy is past. The Kingdom of God dwells forever on the earth. Many prophecies are permenent, such as the presence of Christ with his church.

"divination,"
This is absolutely WRONG. Let's look at the definition of "divination", according to webster.

1 : the art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers

Nothing preterist here, we only look to the scriptures for our theology. There's no hidden knowledge there.

2 : unusual insight : intuitive perception

The scriptures are simple. It's not I who denies the plain words of Christ and the apostles.
Preterism is not any kind of divination, as if Christ never intended his words to be understood.

This is where ya sorta lose me. I have only really studied scripture (and a little credible history) with reference to preterism.

This article doesn't do anything to address preterism itself. It seems to be only a page of namecalling, misrepresentation, and guilt by association. Could you point out what you were trying to say by posting this article?

When did the good news become old news?
It will always be good news, and never old. Let me ask you, hypothetically, after Christ comes, will it be old news?

Only those watching and waiting for His return, have any hope in this
world!
Every preterist (every single one) I've met expresses more hope in Christ's fulfilled Parousia than they could ever have in perpetually delayed prophecy and a worldview of death.

What gives futurism hope? escape from a dying world.

What gives preterists hope? Faith in Christ that his kingdom will ever be established upon the earth in healing and hope for all, and that sin and death are defeated, once and for all time.

Proverbs 13:12 - "Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life."

Thanks for responding, everyone. I'm glad to be able to reason among Christians in a friendly environment. I hope we all can grow with wisdom, logic and open minds and hearts.

Gosh, I had no idea it would turn into such a discussion. Praise God, that we have this opportunity to learn from the scriptures and from one another.

God bless,
Bill
 
Last edited:
Member
Ok first of all I have no clue what is being really talked about here so I have a few questions k thanks!

1) So Christ came back as revelations speaks of?

2) So what are we living in now if He came back?

3) And why not communion ?


4) Did Christ not talk often with symbols and prophecy?

"Thank goodness that Christ was right, that some would live to see the fulfillment of their hope and that he would not leave them as a false prophet."




5) And goodness doesnt need thanked God does! He showed that He was not a false prophet by sending the Holy Spirit. Which He said He would send and did!

It is nice to talk with others and fellowship but I want to make sure I am not falling for something false ty God Bless!
 
Member
Jesuslovesu said:
1) So Christ came back as revelations speaks of?
Yup.

2) So what are we living in now if He came back?
We are living in the New Jerusalem, the spiritual Kingdom of God, into which evil and death will never enter.

3) And why not communion ?
I simply don't think it's a necessity, as Christ has returned and we have communion with him in the New Covenent (when he would drink it anew). I think it's a good thing, and I have nothing against it, but I don't think it's a requirement, which is how it is often offered.

4) Did Christ not talk often with symbols and prophecy?
He often spoke in parables, which were highly symbolic or figurative. However, he also, as in the statements above, spoke clearly and emphatically with specific and literal prophecies. Consider the difference between Matthew 24, Christ's parable of the ten virgins (and forward), and the book of Revelation. Symbolism or literalism is determined by the context and its relevance to the original audience (what it meant to them is what it should mean to us).

The one thing that is unacceptable, and that I find in many interpretations of Christ's words, is applying symbolism or figures (or even outright denial) to text which does not warrant it. We must form our theology around the scriptures, not alter our interpretation of the INERRANT scriptures to fit our preconceived theology.

5) And goodness doesnt need thanked God does! He showed that He was not a false prophet by sending the Holy Spirit. Which He said He would send and did!
Ahh, but if any of Christ's prophecies did not come to pass as he said they would, then he would be rendered a false prophet. That's why I believe the passages of matthew are the most clear, emphatic and strongest support for preterism, because Christ was most certainly not a false prophet.

It is nice to talk with others and fellowship but I want to make sure I am not falling for something false ty God Bless!
Indeed! It's quite a paradigm shift, I understand. It was for me, as well. I encourage you to study further and compare scripture with scripture at the leading of the Holy Spirit.
It requires much personal study, but study of the scriptures never hurts, either in change or in the strengthening of original beliefs.

God bless, and let no man hinder your honest consideration of the scriptures.

-Bill
 
Member
Preterists believe that all Scriptures were fulfilled in 70 AD. For many Christians throughout the world, this position is both heretical, and an insult to one's intelligence. It begs the question, "Is the universe turning on its end?"

Like any other cult such as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, Full Preterists feed on those who are unlearned and untaught. Indoctrination can be a terrible thing, and when one becomes indoctrinated into the precept of men, escaping its bondage can become unbearably difficult. That's why it's important for all of us to read our Bibles as much as we can, not only so we can know the truth, but so we can defend ourselves against the false teachers in today's world. We should all remember that part of proclaiming the truth is exposing the lie.

Cults base most of their theology on the isolation of various passages in the Scriptures, and Preterists are no exception. Matthew 16:28 and Matthew 24:34 are the favorite verses that Full Preterists use to promote their false theology. In Matthew 16:28, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Regarding this verse, Preterists boldly take the position that Jesus was emphasizing that some of them would still be alive and witness His Second Coming. However, this is not what Jesus was saying! In this verse, Jesus was referring to His transfiguration, which would take place six days later (Matthew 17:1-5). On that day, He took Peter, James and John. It was then that they beheld His glory and His majesty, when His face shone like the sun. Peter, who was there, indicates in 2Peter 1:16-18 that, at this holy mount, they witnessed the "power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" as follows:

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, WHEN WE WERE WITH HIM IN THE HOLY MOUNT."

When you demonstrate this clear connection to the Full Preterist, they will argue with you. Well, can you blame them? 2Peter 1:16-18 refutes one of their strongest arguments. When they begin to argue, just turn and walk away. Because they are not arguing with you, they are attempting to refute the Scriptures. Tell them to take it up with Peter on Judgment Day. Oh, that's right! They believe that Judgment Day has already taken place, in 70 AD. So, I guess they have anything to worry about, do they?

Full Preterism is an empty doctrine, which offers no hope of a better life and a better future. It tears away at God's promise to the world of everlasting peace and tranquility that will be accomplished at Jesus' Second Coming. If Jesus came in 70 AD as the Full Preterists claim, He didn't do a very good job establishing world peace where nation would not lift up sword against nation (Isaiah 2:1-4, Isaiah 11:9-10, Ezekiel 37:24-26 and Micah 4:3).

Sincerely and In Christ,
The King Messiah Project

Amen.

"But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Timothy 2:16-18). Hymenaus, the first preterist, was "delivered unto Satan" for blasphemy (1 Timothy 1:20).
 
Last edited:
Member
Shaggy Flasko said:
We are living in the New Jerusalem, the spiritual Kingdom of God, into which evil and death will never enter.

If that is the case as you say, How come my Aunt, and Grandparents have died? Not to mention both of my baby brothers?? I get sick, my family gets sick, and people run around worshipping satan?

if this is the new Jerusalem what is going on??

When Christ returns there will be a new heaven and a new earth and it will be more than just spiritual, we will be in glorified and resurrected bodies living with the Lord forever.

Now if you are talking about Christ's millenial reign then Yes we are in that, and it is about to be over for judgement is coming. But as to this being the new Jerusalem spoke of in Revelation then no.
So explain more clearly what you mean.

Peace be with you,
John
 
Member
Ok,im gently massaging my brain whilst trying to understand all these posts.Until this thread i had never heard of a preterist.Am i right in thinking their veiw is that all bible prophecy has been fulfilled?If this is the case here are some scriptures that im pretty sure have not seen fulfillment yet:

1 thessalonians 5v3

ezekiel 38v14-19

daniel 2v44

revelation 20v1-3

john 5v 28,29

revelation 21v3,4

comments?(i do find this very interesting by the way)
 
Member
Coconut said:
Preterists believe that all Scriptures were fulfilled in 70 AD. For many Christians throughout the world, this position is both heretical, and an insult to one's intelligence.
Hmm, that's too bad, for I've always stressed each individual Christian's ability to determine for themselves, according to proper hermeneutic and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, proper theology. On the other hand, you seem to think that you must defend their beliefs for them, rather than allowing them to turn to the scriptures.

FORTUNATELY pop-theology isn't the basis for TRUTH! Salvation by faith was once considered quite heretical by most of the Christian world. Btw, most Christians I've met are far more loving and less prideful and conceited than you seem to think.

Like any other cult such as the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, Full Preterists feed on those who are unlearned and untaught.
This is, indeed, and outright lie. If anything, it is dispensational theology that encourages an almost complete reliance of the "laymen" on the "theology experts".

Every preterist I've met is extremely learned and knowledgeable of scripture, and has only converted after months or years of intensive and honest study. Many have lost friends and relationships with family because of the similar hatred that you express, despite their love for God. Every one I've met seeks to challenge popular thought and stimulate people to study.

Why don't you, instead of trying to play the ad homonym fallacies, take up a Christian attitude and refute this belief from the scriptures? Can’t they defend themselves?

Indoctrination can be a terrible thing, and when one becomes indoctrinated into the precept of men, escaping its bondage can become unbearably difficult.
Indeed, that’s why you feel you must to attack me instead of my arguments? Can’t your tradition support itself on scripture alone?

That's why it's important for all of us to read our Bibles as much as we can, not only so we can know the truth, but so we can defend ourselves against the false teachers in today's world. We should all remember that part of proclaiming the truth is exposing the lie.
Yeah, I agree with that. Verily, I’ve only encouraged all to read their Bibles and spend much time in the WORD OF GOD, to see whether these things are true. I don’t see why you seek to misrepresent me with this poorly written, slanderous filth of an article.

Cults base most of their theology on the isolation of various passages in the Scriptures, and Preterists are no exception. Matthew 16:28 and Matthew 24:34 are the favorite verses that Full Preterists use to promote their false theology.
They’re the favorite for some, though I also like…
Matt. 3:2,7,10,12, 4:17, 10:7,23, 12:32, 16:27, 21:40-45, 26:64,
Mark 1:15, 12:9,12, 13:30,
Luke 3:7, 10:9,11, 20:15-19, 21:32, 23:28-30, 24:21,
John 14:18-22, 21:22, Acts 2:16-18, 17:31, 24:15,25,
Romans 4:23-24, 8:13,18, 13:11-12, 16:20,
1 Corinthians 7:29,31, 10:11, 15:51-52, 16:22,
Ephesians 1:21,
Philippians 4:5,
Colossians 1:6,23 (compare Matt. 24:14), 2:16-17,
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 5:4, 23,
II Thessalonians 1:6-7,
1 Timothy 4:8, 6:14, 19,
II Timothy 4:1, 6:14 (compare Jude 1:17-19)
Hebrews 1:1-2, 14, 2:5, 6:5, 7-8, 8:13, 9:8-11, 26, 10:1, 25, 27, 10:37, 13:14,
James 2:12, 5:1-3, 7-8
1 Peter 1:6, 20, 4:5,7,17, 5:1
II Peter 1:19, 2:3, 3:3-7, 10-12,
1 John 2:8, 17-18 (compare Matt. 24:23-24), 4:3
Jude 1:4,14-15, 17-19
Revelation 1:1, 2:25, 3:10,11, 18:24 (compare Matt. 23:35-36; Luke 11:50-51), 22:6,7,10 (compare Daniel 8:26),12, and 20

You can more easily view these passages here

Upon what do you base your belief that Christ has not fulfilled his promises and that all these NT writings were wrong, a weak interpretation of 2 Peter 3?

In Matthew 16:28, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Regarding this verse, Preterists boldly take the position that Jesus was emphasizing that some of them would still be alive and witness His Second Coming.
What’s so bold about taking the scripture at it’s word?

However, this is not what Jesus was saying! In this verse, Jesus was referring to His transfiguration, which would take place six days later (Matthew 17:1-5). On that day, He took Peter, James and John. It was then that they beheld His glory and His majesty, when His face shone like the sun. Peter, who was there, indicates in 2Peter 1:16-18 that, at this holy mount, they witnessed the "power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" as follows:
Only “some” of them would survive six days?

"For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. (17) For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (18) And this voice which came from heaven we heard, WHEN WE WERE WITH HIM IN THE HOLY MOUNT."
Let’s look at a more thorough recording of the transfiguration.
1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
---Again, only some of them would survive the following week? That’s redundant to say the least.
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Let’s make a comparison.

Prediction: Matthew 16:27-28
27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Ok, so the Son would come in the glory of his Father with his angels and bring judgment. Some of his audience would not die before this happened.
Your fulfillment: Christ went with them up to the mountain and was transfigured, displaying his glory.

Problems:
1. Christ didn’t go anywhere. If he didn’t go, he couldn’t come.
2. no angels here
3. no judgment here
4. If you’ll reread that little passage, you’ll see that the author uses the transfiguration as proof of Christ’s (then) future return in power.

16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

---In Paul’s words, they are not deceived to believe in Christ’s return because they saw Christ in his glory. While this is an obvious testament to Christ’s deity, how is it a fulfillment of his coming in judgment?
The true fulfillment: 1 Thessalonians 1:7-9 –
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
--Coming from heaven with his angels with…
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power
--judgement
When you demonstrate this clear connection to the Full Preterist, they will argue with you. Well, can you blame them? 2Peter 1:16-18 refutes one of their strongest arguments.
First of all, it doesn’t even come close. In fact, Paul validates my view of the transfiguration (that it repudiated Christ’s parousia to the apostles) by presenting it as proof of Christ’s (then) future return.

When they begin to argue, just turn and walk away.


You have completely missed the point of civil discourse. You present the support for your beliefs and I present the support for mine. The audience (whoever reads or listens to the discourse) decides for or against either viewpoint.

Why are you telling people to make claims about scripture and then run away from the discussion?

Because they are not arguing with you, they are attempting to refute the Scriptures. Tell them to take it up with Peter on Judgment Day.
Talk about indoctrination, do you really think you’re so Biblically sound as to refer to your own interpretation as scripture itself?

Full Preterism is an empty doctrine, which offers no hope of a better life and a better future. It tears away at God's promise to the world of everlasting peace and tranquility that will be accomplished at Jesus' Second Coming.
Actually, futurism takes away that peace from Christians by indoctrinating them to believe that the gospel is destined to be defeated, with no hope for improvement in this world. Futurism relies on a physical escape which will not come. Preterism holds that God’s grace is established and that we reign in victory over sin and death.

Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life. – Proverbs 13:12

He didn't do a very good job establishing world peace where nation would not lift up sword against nation (Isaiah 2:1-4, Isaiah 11:9-10, Ezekiel 37:24-26 and Micah 4:3).
It can never be said that I put forth Christ as a failure.

Sincerely and In Christ,
There’s one thing I’d like to say. It comes from Matthew 7:1-5...
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Show some love, please. After all, what shall the Lord say of you of castigating his children as blasphemers? I shall not speculate.

"But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Timothy 2:16-18). Hymenaus, the first preterist, was "delivered unto Satan" for blasphemy (1 Timothy 1:20).
When was this written? I’d say Phil and Hymen jumped the gun. On a side note, if the apostles had taught the Christians a physical resurrection, would it not be easily refuted? Would not Paul have made mention of their err?

The Christians at that time had not yet been delivered from the persecution of the Jews and the Romans. Hymen and Phil were cut off for denying the promise of the Lord’s coming and his judgment on the ungodly (saying that it was passed). I deny no such thing. Hymen and Phil were wrong.

I must ask, with all due respect, is this article plagiarized? I think I’ve seen it before.

Now that was the Holy Ghost speaking !
It’s not the work of the Lord to castigate believers. If you want the Holy Spirit’s words, go to scripture.

If that is the case as you say, How come my Aunt, and Grandparents have died? Not to mention both of my baby brothers??
In Christ’s words from John 11:

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Do you believe this?

I get sick, my family gets sick, and people run around worshipping satan?
The Bible never speaks of an annihilation of all evil, though it shall be judged and most surely will never enter the New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God, the Church.

Revelation 21
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

When Christ returns there will be a new heaven and a new earth and it will be more than just spiritual,
Alright people, is there something wrong with spiritual things? Do yall think they just don’t exist? This is very perplexing to me.

Hebrews 9
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

---Now, probably the biggest misunderstanding is 2 Peter 3. Let’s look at part of the passage in particular.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

---The word elements here it translated from the Greek stoicheion, which means rudiments, or basic principles. It is also used in

Galatians 4:3 - 3Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4:9 - 9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Colossians 2:8 - 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

2:20 - 20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

---So you see, “elements” does not refer to the physical ground and globe, but to the rudiments of the world, the Old Covenant system.

Will there be a destruction of the literal heavens and earth? Let’s look at an example of what this would’ve meant to the early Jewish Christian.

2 Samuel 22:7-12 - 7In my distress I called upon the LORD, and cried to my God: and he did hear my voice out of his temple, and my cry did enter into his ears.
8Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.
9There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
10He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness was under his feet.
11And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies.

Isaiah 51:16 - And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Did God literally plant the heavens and lay the foundations of the earth here? Surely not.

In the prophecy against the nations…

Isaiah 34:4 – And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
against Babylon…

Isaiah 13:10,13 - 10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

---Do you see the resemblance? Indeed…

Genesis 8:21 - And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Psalm 104:5 - Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

It is clear that God did not intend upon destroying the old “heavens and earth”, but establishing a new order. The shaking and destruction of the heavens and earth (along with the symbol of "clouds) was a figure of the destruction of a people or an order.

we will be in glorified and resurrected bodies living with the Lord forever.
Again, I point to 1 Corinthians 15, as Paul describes the resurrection as a spiritual one, not a physical one. It’s very clear.

Now if you are talking about Christ's millenial reign then Yes we are in that
If you have no problem with a spiritual fulfillment of the thousand year reign (I assume, if you believe that it is now in effect), what’s the problem with a spiritual fulfillment of the New Jerusalem.

But as to this being the new Jerusalem spoke of in Revelation then no.
So explain more clearly what you mean.
It is spiritual.
Luke 17:20-21 - 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Hebrews 9:11-14 - 11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building [ktisis: also translated creation, that which is created];
12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Will God dwell physically on earth?

Isaiah 66:1 - 1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Jim Wade wrote an interesting article on this. http://www.eschatology101.com/pre-millennial_rebellion.htm

One thing I must say is that scripture cannot be refuted or reinterpreted based on a conception of non-fulfillment. We must change our understanding of scripture if it conflicts with its clear declarations. To attempt to do so is simply denial of the Word of God. These are things which must be considered. Scripture speaks, loudly. Do not simply deny it for tradition.

Aliright, that's all I'm going to comment on, today. I'll reply to Soldier of God's newest post.

In the meantime, I don't think any of you have addressed my assertions themselves. I've seen a few personal attacks, with only impotent reasoning and support. I've also seen an attempt to refute my words on a perception of non-fulfillment (though I have no problem with questions on my interpretation for fulfillment), on which I've already given my thoughts.

Please, if you want to discuss this, address my words. Don't insult me with name-calling. I've replied to most of your questions and issues with preterism with extreme politeness and love. Now then, I'd like you to answer some of my questions.

(1.) How can you refute Christ's promises (e.g. Matthew 3:2, 10:23, 16:28, 24:34, Luke ) and the apostles assertions (Hebrews 10:37, Acts 2:16-21, Romans 16:20, Luke 21:22, Colossians 1:6, 23 compare Matthew 24:14 & Revelation 14:6-7)?

(2.) Many futurists portray modern, carnal Israel as still a special, chosen people.
How do we separate that which God has joined together? Romans 8:28-29, 10:12, Galatians 3:28-29, Colossians 3:11

Also, look through Romans 8-11 for Paul's view of the "New Israel" encompassing those (Jew and Gentile) who have the circumcision of the heart (some cut off, others grafted in, Romans 9). Ephesians 2:14-16, 19, 1 Corinthians 12:13

(3.) taken from the article Questions for Questions for Dispensationalists,
Premillennialists, and Other Futurists
by Daniel T. Silvestri


By what legitimate means do we perceive some Biblical statements as literal and others as symbolic?

It is very interesting to observe the collection of scriptural verses that many perceive as "literal" while others are "symbolic". How is this determined? What guidelines are used? Is it arbitrary? Some examples of verses that many interpret as literal would include: "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mat. 24:30); "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11); "And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth" (Rev. 19:21); "And so all Israel shall be saved" (Rom. 11:26). These verses are interpreted in the plainest, most usual, typical sense of words in the earthly objectively observable literal meaning. However, the following verses are NOT usually interpreted in the same literal sense: "Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come" (Mat. 10:23); "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom (Mat. 16:28). "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mat. 24:34); "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled (Luke 21:22). What exactly is the determining factor that renders the first collection of verses ‘literal’ and the latter set of verses ‘symbolic’?
(4.) Why, instead of changing the conception of fulfillment to conform to scripture, is there an attempt to reinterpret scripture to conform to the traditional conception of fulfillment?

(5.) Was Christ mistaken?


Whew! I put very much time and thought into this reply that it should simply display scripture and loving reason. I trust that yall will do the same for me.

May God bless you with wisdom and insight.
-Bill
 
Member
Shaggy Flasko said:
We are living in the New Jerusalem, the spiritual Kingdom of God, into which evil and death will never enter.
Its true no evil shall enter there - So look at all the wickness in the world today - By what was just quoted we can see there is no way we are living in New Jerusalem
 
Member
Luke 17:20-21 - 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The New Jerusalem is spiritual, it is the Kingdom of God. The Scriptures do not teach the annihilation of all evil, but they do say that evil will not enter the New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God.

we can see there is no way we are living in New Jerusalem
This is an exegetical fallacy, applying our perception of the world to our interpretation of scripture. The scriptures must guide our understanding of the world, not the other way around.

God bless,
Bill
 
Last edited:
Member
Shaggy Flasko said:
Luke 17:20-21 - 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The New Jerusalem is spiritual, it is the Kingdom of God. The Scriptures do not teach the annihilation of all evil, but they do say that evil will not enter the New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of God.



This is a exegetical fallacy, applying our perception of the world to our interpretation of scripture. The scriptures must guide our understanding of the world, not the other way around.

God bless,
Bill


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


End of Story...
 
Last edited:

Similar threads


Top