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"The Counterfeit 'love and light' of the Antichrist"

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"The Counterfeit 'love and light' of the Antichrist"

God is love and while there is no way that Satan can destroy love, he is making great strides in these last "minutes" of the "last days" to persuade people to accept his counterfeit "love" for the real thing. Counterfeit love is what the Antichrist and False Prophet will use to lure people into their camp. It is the kind of "agape love" that says "God loves all spiritual paths, no spiritual path offends Him. All paths lead to salvation."

But the Scriptures warn us...

A pure eye lets sunshine into your soul. But an evil eye shuts out the light and plunges you into darkness. Make sure that the light you think you have is not really darkness. (Luke 11:34,35)

There is true love and there is false (counterfeit) love. There is true Light (Jesus Christ, the Light of the World) and there is the false light provided by antichrists and false prophets. And the truth is that people cannot always discern the difference between true love and false love, between true Light and the darkness of lies. That's why some people futilely search for love in relationships which are centered on things like mutual drug abuse, alcoholism, sexual passions, or monetary gain, etc.

And there are those who simply "fall in love" with anyone who will whisper in their ear anything they to want to hear. People like this all "hide" in "love" but that kind of false "love" never endures - it's all a deception. The Antichrist and False Prophet will offer that same kind of false "love and light" in an attempt to muddle people's minds and keep people from reaching the Kingdom of God.

True love cannot stand for a lie. True love from God can never be unified with a lie. Standing for Bible truths today is standing for Jesus Himself. Jesus is the truth. We cannot love Jesus, who is the Word made flesh, and deny the truth in His Word. God is love and Jesus is the Truth and the Holy Spirit bears witness to the Truth. Together, they equal TRUE LOVE. And since love and truth go hand in hand, the "love and light" offered by New Agers is the same kind of counterfeit "love and light" that the "Counterfeit Jesus," the antChrist, will offer.

Today, many Christians are falling in love with a lie. The lie that Bible truths are not as important as living in love and unity with antichrists. The lie tries to make the Christian feel like we do not love people when we disagree with a deception that another person accepts as truth. But we are not loving a person who is deceived by keeping quiet about their deception. If there is a bridge out on the road ahead, Christians should be moved with compassion to warn those on the train that they are heading for certain death.

Expressing true love isn't always a comfortable thing for the person giving it or person receiving it. How many people have loved others whom they witnessed following a self-destructive path? They saw what was wrong and tried to help the person, maybe even at that person's own request, only to have the troubled person hatefully turn on them because they didn't want to face the reality of their self-destructiveness. But, still, Christians are called to exercise true love for it is written in Romans 12:9

"Don't just pretend that you love others. Really love them. Hate what is wrong. Stand on the side of the good."

True love means having God at the center of our life in Jesus' Name and a love which is rooted in God's Word.

1 John 2:3 If we obey God's commands, then we are sure that we know him. 4 If we say that we know him, but do not obey his commands, we are liars and there is no truth in us. 5 But if we obey his word, we are the ones whose love for God has really been made perfect. This is how we can be sure that we are in union with God: 6 if we say that we remain in union with God, we should live just as Jesus Christ did.

There are always people who we may lovingly admonish and rebuke but who will say "You don't act very Christ-like! Why don't you act like Jesus?" But if they actually knew who Jesus was, they'd realize that we already are because they would understand that Jesus hated what was wrong, loved what was right and wasn't afraid to show and tell people how He felt. What, the "love and light" people say?! "Jesus HATED!" Yes, in fact, the Scriptures say that He hated more then anyone else in his lineage...

Hebrews 1:4-9
4 This shows that God's Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is far greater than their names. 5 For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus: "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father. " And again God said, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son." 6 And then, when he presented his honored Son to the world, God said, "Let all the angels of God worship him." 7 God calls his angels "messengers swift as the wind, and servants made of flaming fire." 8 But to his Son he says, "Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal power is expressed in righteousness. 9 You love what is right and hate what is wrong. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else."

What Jesus hated is just as important as what he loved. He hated what was wrong - He hated those things which offended His Father - idolatry and hypocrisy being at the top of the list. Here is the truth that New Agers can't accept - if Jesus were standing in front of any one of them, He would LOVE them enough to tell them how much He HATES their New Age beliefs. Why? Because He knows how those beliefs offend His Father and how such rebellion to His Word has taken them off the path to God's Kingdom. Yes, Jesus would love them that much that He would tell them how He HATES their sin and, if He did, you could pretty well count on those New Agers calling Him a hate-monger, too. Sinners hated Jesus for telling them the truth, even to the point of killing Him.

"But Jesus was tolerant of others," say the New Agers. "Why can't you be more tolerant like Jesus!?"

Jesus did speak of tolerance in Matthew 10:14-15; 11:20-24 when He said that God will show less tolerance for those who reject Him than He showed for Sodom and Gomorrah. Fire and brimstone raining down from the sky certainly doesn't strike me as Jesus preaching tolerance.

Tolerating rebellion to God is just another form of Satan's counterfeit love - it's cheap grace at God's expense. A tolerance doctrine is an excuse for people not to change. ("I won't criticise your path if you don't criticise mine.") It gives people the feeling that they are more loving than God. But God doesn't have to conform to any individual's imaginary idea of "loving" because His love is clearly defined in the Scriptures as being based on truth and justice.

Surely, one of the most tolerant cultures of all time existed in none-other then Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham believed that there were at least 50 righteous people in the city and so it should be spared from God's wrath. But simply being indifferent to the sin as was the case in that sinful place is not a valid substitute for true righteousness and, of course, Sodom and Gomorrah were ultimately destroyed.

True Christians are intolerant of sin and false teachings about who Jesus is and what the Word of God actually says. And so because we don't tolerate lies about our Savior or God's Word, we are accused of being "unloving." I can tell you that the exposure of false doctrines and practices is a never ending job. And as long as there is one person who falsely represents who Jesus Christ really is according to Scripture then, God willing, there will always be some "intolerant" Christian around to correct them with the hope of turning them toward Jesus Christ and away from their useless "Gospel of the Imagination."

The following exhortation is from an English preacher who lived back in the 19th century named Charles Haddon Spurgeon. Pastor Spurgeon apparently preached to around 5,000 people a week and he is credited with having more religious works in print than any other English-language writer. I would like to share what I found with you because although it obviously first appeared over a hundred years ago it seems so relevant today:

"We must defend the Faith, for what would have become of us if our fathers had not maintained it? . . . Must we not play the man as they did? If we do not, are we not censuring our Fathers? It is very pretty, is it not, to read of Luther and his brave deeds. Of course, everybody admires Luther! Yes, yes, but you do not want anyone else to do the same today. . . . We admire a man who is firm in the Faith, say four hundred years ago; . . . but such a man today is a nuisance, and must be put down. Call him a narrow-minded bigot, or give him a worse name if you can think of one. Yet imagine that in those ages past Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and their compeers had said. "The world is out of order; but if we try to set it right we shall only make a great row, and get ourselves into disgrace. Let us go to our chambers, put on our night-caps and sleep over the bad times, and perhaps when we wake up, things would have grown better." Such conduct upon their part would have entailed upon us a heritage of error. These men loved the Faith and the name of Jesus too well to see them trampled on. Note that we owe them, and let us pay to our sons the debt we owe to our fathers."
Since Martin Luther is mentioned in Pastor Spurgeon's sermon, it seems right to also include this statement from Luther:

"If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest expression every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved, and to be steady on all the battlefield besides, is mere flight and disgrace, if he flinches at that point."

True Christians love what is right and hate what is wrong and if people of the world choose to hate them for that, so be it for as Jesus said:

18 "When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. 19 The world would love you if you belonged to it, but you don't. I chose you to come out of the world, and so it hates you. 20 Do you remember what I told you? 'A servant is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you! 21 The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they don't know God who sent me (John 15:18-21)

Today, Christians must stand firm, speaking the truth of true love in Christ even when we are hated and called "dividers, preachers of hate, intolerant, proselytizers," etc. Christians must not give in to the worldly pressures that say: "Oh come on, stop arguing and get along, just LOVE one another". That kind of love is a false love, a lazy love, a love that stands for the easy way out. True Christian love as displayed by Jesus to the Pharisees and those who opposed Him means arguing. Arguing that disagrees with sin and false doctrine and antiChrist philosphies. Arguing that separates itself from deception. Arguing that earnestly contends for faith in Christ Jesus and the true love of God that should always be delivered, never to be altered by antichrists who attempt to usurp God's True Love - a love manifested through Christ Jesus - with a false self-centered "love and light" philosophy.

New Agers share the "love" of the False Prophet and Antichrist because their great counterfeit "love" will say "let us join together in 'love and light' under the brotherhood of man and we'll be one as God created us to be one. We're all seeking the same God. We're all the same, all paths lead to God." The False Prophet and Antichrist will persuade many to follow that lie that all paths lead to salvation. And the Antichrist will quote scripture. "Jesus prayed that they all may be one, Father, even as thou and I are one," along with other scriptures along those lines. You can almost feel the power that this deception is going to have, especially on those who do not know God's Word, and when combined with demonic wonders and miracles and "loving" persuasions of "love and light."

Many people will fall for the counterfeit love and not be able to distinguish it from true love because the message will be something they want to hear (that their antichrist path leads to heaven) rather then the TRUTH which they need to hear - that Jesus said He was "the Way, the Truth and the Life." But it's always easier to love someone who is telling us what we want to hear and to convince ourselves that they are telling us those things because they love us also. Why is that?

Because the soul needs love, and needs to feel protected. It needs approval and it needs something to submit to. A person's flesh and pride will work to keep the soul from distinguishing between true love and false love. If they are craving love, flesh and pride, will reach out for whatever love seems to be available.

"Love" without Truth is nothing more than a false "love" that the world embraces - a "love" of shallow civility, false humility and "feelings" that are not grounded on the Person of Jesus Christ and His Word.

It's the New Ager's "love and light" signature you find at the end of their letters and forum posts.

In the book of Jude, the apostle urges Christians to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If you study his warning, you'll see that he is mainly warning professing Christians who would dilute the faith rather then defend it.

Christians must love the truth of God's Word and earnestly contend for it. We must love the truth of God's Word above our desire to "get along" with others. If Christians do not do that we are not loving the true Jesus of the Bible but we are loving a lie. Satan is a liar and the father of lies. He is the father of all who love and make a lie and he's ready and willing to use his counterfeit "love" to "love" people to death. He's prepared to use his counterfeit "light" to keep people in spiritual darkness until they're so far off the path to God's Kingdom and the hour is so late, that redemption would be impossible.

And so the Scriptures say that as Christians...

We will continue to be called the enemy and will still be accused of having no love - Galatians 4:16

People will not recognize that we speak the truth in love... Ephesians 4:15

Most folks today have not 'received' the love of the truth... II Thessalonians 2:10

The direction of the country will be anything but love in deed AND truth... I John 3:18

And finally, as we may try to show and explain that love, the less we will be loved ... II Cor 12:15

These people say...

1. We are "unloving" if we criticize someone's religion.

Jesus Christ spent half of His earthly ministry criticizing people's religion - Matt 8-23; John 3-8; Luke 4-17, etc.; and he often said O ye of little faith to those who had a 'faith'. Romans 10:2-3 expose the lie of man's own religions based on man's own efforts of righteousness.

2. We are told that we have no "Christ-like spirit"! They say we do not have the "sweet spirit of Christ" because we "boldly challenge those who disagree with us".

Jesus Christ did it constantly (John 8, Matt 23). Paul did it constantly (Hymenaeus, Alexander, Demas, and others). Paul even accused a whole RACE of people as being liars and being lazy - Titus 1:12; he called them evil beasts & slow bellies.

The Pauline epistles are a direct attack against the life styles and personal convictions held by every atheist, sodomite, lesbian, bossy wife & weak husband, rebellious and controlling toddler with lazy parents, disobedient teenagers, young men mooching off their parents, Hindu, Buddhist, drunkard, Moslem, or humanist anywhere. (I Timothy 1; Hebrews 10; Ephesians 5; Colossians 3; I Corinthians 3:6; Romans 1-3, etc.)

3. The alleged "loving-caring-sharing" Christian thinks it is sinful for us to use bold and blunt talk in preaching and in our discussions.

Paul used the language of "the man on the street", and it was so plain and bold that his 'brethren' said his preaching was rude and contemptible.

For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible. (2Corinthians 10:10 )

But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things. (2Corinthians 11:6)

A Biblical Warning to Christians worth remembering. Beware the New Age liars with their empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense:

6 And now, just as you accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord, you must continue to live in obedience to him. 7 Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all he has done. 8 Don't let anyone lead you astray with empty philosophy and high-sounding nonsense that come from human thinking and from the evil powers of this world, and not from Christ. 9 For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body, (Colossians 2:6-9, NLT)


- Christopher/ChristBearer

"Here is the road. Follow it." (Isaiah 30:21)
 
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Coconut said:
"The Counterfeit 'love and light' of the Antichrist"
True Christians love what is right and hate what is wrong and if people of the world choose to hate them for that, so be it for as Jesus said:
18 "When the world hates you, remember it hated me before it hated you. 19 The world would love you if you belonged to it, but you don't. I chose you to come out of the world, and so it hates you. 20 Do you remember what I told you? 'A servant is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you! 21 The people of the world will hate you because you belong to me, for they don't know God who sent me (John 15:18-21)
Today, Christians must stand firm, speaking the truth of true love in Christ even when we are hated and called "dividers, preachers of hate, intolerant, proselytizers," etc. Christians must not give in to the worldly pressures that say: "Oh come on, stop arguing and get along, just LOVE one another".
Another excellent post Coconut. I didn't want to quote all of it here to save space - but those verses from John 15:18-21 are favourites of mine. I count it a priviledge when the world hates me for standing up for Christ. I am not more important than He was. :love:
 
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This is a great thread, I wish everyone would read this and come to understand it. But I don't think it is likely to happen. I know that I risk becoming a bad guy( if I'm not already) here at TalkJesus, I am going to say what is on my heart. The majority of those here at TalkJesus are babies, not in the sense that they have just been born-again, but rather that they don't want to grow-up.

Babies cannot perform the necessary tasks that are required in order to sustain life, thus they need the service of someone more mature. I would not think it strange to see a baby or toddler with a bottle and having to be spoon fed, but an adolescence in need of these, I would find it sadly ridiculous.

There comes a time in our spiritual lives that we must stop requiring someone else to bring us a bottle of milk and flavored mush in a jar and learn to chew on some meat.

It is not the Lord's desire to marry an infant Bride. The Word of God paints the picture of a mature, healthy, and beautiful Bride not one sucking on a bottle and needing her diaper changed.

I have not said anything that hasn't already been said before ( read Paul's letters), But I will continue to say it until it isn't necessary any longer. I am not condemning anyone ( there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus), but if you are ashamed by what I have written then let's do something about it.

Hebrews 5:11-14
11*There is so much more we would like to say about this. But you don’t seem to listen, so it’s hard to make you understand. 12*You have been Christians a long time now, and you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things a beginner must learn about the Scriptures.* You are like babies who drink only milk and cannot eat solid food. 13*And a person who is living on milk isn’t very far along in the Christian life and doesn’t know much about doing what is right. 14*Solid food is for those who are mature, who have trained themselves to recognize the difference between right and wrong and then do what is right.

Let's all grow up together as a family should helping each other in a ncessary fashion that will promote growth and not hinder it. Jesus said we need to become servants and I have never seen a servant that was an infant or baby, have you?
 
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Thanks, coco

Thanks for sharing that, Coconut. I found it to be very interesting. It looks like you do a lot of work around here to keep this place going for everyone. I really appreciate your effort.

And this is just another example of the complexities involved with Christianity, and the mission assigned to us.

Though I think we all understand that it's our duty to avoid sin in our own lives, and the many complex forms that sin can take , I have always found a lot of difficulty in respect to coming up with an effective method of relaying the true meaning of God's Word to those that don't know Him. How do you get through to those that need to be saved? There seem to be so many opinions, so many different options that others present, and this is merely one of them. Those that try to save others undoubtedly have the right intention, though, we know that much for sure. From that point forth, however, there are several different avenues that can be taken.

For instance, some will refer to the southern Baptists as those that "Chase people away from God." I've heard far too many refer to the Baptists as a hateful bunch through the years, afterall, some of whom know nothing of God, others themselves who are devout Christians.

And to be honest, I'm human, and therefore must admit that I agree with such when it comes to a small segment of that particular denomination. There was a group of them that actually came up to this area to protest at a funeral recently, and I know quite well that I will never have it within my heart to do anything like that.

A famous preacher hoarding millions of dollars. I think that it's in most of our hearts to believe that such behavior would not be consistent with the true calling. Same goes for one that would be a womanizer.

A CEO donating $40k to a charity when he's worth millions. Find joy in the donation, certainly, but watch out about putting those up on a pedestal when the truth of the matter is that the person could have probably done a lot more, you know.

Those that clearly manipulate the word of God with intention for whatever purpose, another thing that we're bound to be unhappy about. A Christian that doesn't warn what may be ahead for a friend or acquaintence consumed by a life of adultry, or one that might be cheating, stealing, etc. Reminding those consumed by their achievements in life that they themselves are powerless without God, etc.

But how do you come to approach the overall issue in the more challenging walks of life? There are a number of methods and circumstances that go beyond the norm, each of which that may require somewhat of a different approach.

Yesterday I discussed a hypothetical situation involving a young teenager considering abortion. How does one approach that issue if the child hadn't grown up in a home that knew of God, an env't where she had been abused, alcoholic parents, etc.

The sin of the child has come to ruin her life under such circumstances, but how do you approach those that truly know nothing about right or wrong?

I'm not a fan of Psychology that isn't based on Christian teachings, but it would be very difficult to ignore the theory in this circumstance, one would have to imagine. One look at the number of our young people committing suicide today, and we can certainly confirm that there is more pain in today's world than at just about any other point in history.

So at that point, would it truly be the wiser choice to inform the child considering abortion under such circumstances that she will go to hell for what she is about to do, to warn her of her evil ways, and to leave it at that? What risk would there be that you might be responsible for turning the child away from God by doing so? Telling a person that already hates him/herself that they are bound for hell, I would probably have to question that type of approach.

It is also estimated that 90% of adult film stars were molested as children/teenagers. How do you approach that type of situation? Point being, how do you call out the sinner and plead with them to turn to Him when there are real life circumstances in place, those brought by the devil's hand, those that probably have something to do with the nature of their ongoing sin? There's no question that their behavior can't go on, etc, but how do you use the gospel to change the person that is a sinner because of emotional trauma?

Recently, a Christian radio program aired a story that targeted teenagers. The ten minute tale involved a Christian girl that had started dating a boy. She decided to approach an elder of the church for advise with this relationship, at which time he asked whether or not the boy was a believer.

The story continues, and it turns out that the boy hadn't grown up in a Christian home, and therefore the girl decides to end the relationship after he refused to attend church with her and her family one Sunday. He did not rule out the possibility in the near future, but having just met the girl, it appeared that he just wasn't comfortable attending services with her family yet.

In Cor 18:20, we are basically told to avoid relations with non-believers, and therefore that is likely the basis of that short narrarative.

Unfortunately, my heart had some trouble with this particular storyline in particular.

For starters, the boy wasn't "Making any moves" on the girl. They would go out and have picnics, afternoon adventures, etc, but at no point in the story was the boy making any advances on the girl.

Furthermore, they made him out to be about the nicest kid that you'd ever find. Extremely polite, respectful, etc. But the the point of the story was that he wasn't a believer, and therefore the girl had made the proper decision to end the relationship than and there. But what if the boy eventually had decided to attend church with his/her family? What if she would have had the ability to change him, leading him toward the Father? Quite often, those are the types of issues I deal with inside. He's made me into a deep thinker on this type of stuff, and so it is to say that I'm constantly examining areas like this.

And I think that falls directly into the heart of this type of thing. It seems that no only do we have our own lives to worry about in respect to our personal relationship with Him, but we must also be concerned about the world itself, now more than ever, and those that have not yet turned to Him.

One of you mentioned "Toughness." You say that we have to be adult-like with our faith, steadfast, moreless, I believe is what you were saying. And I couldn't agree with you more.

We might well be living in one of the more hypocritical periods in history when it comes to Christianity. 80+% of those in the United States are allegedly Christians, yet we have more sin in place right now than we've ever had.

Thankfully, we've had a re-awakening period take place, somewhat, at least. Afterall, there are undoubtedly some Christians putting out the warning calls for change, which is needed, and we also find those stepping up to defy His calling. Some are predicting that we've approached the end times, even, which might well be justified to some degree, even though we are not to dwell on that hour, based on what I've read, at least. For good reason, too, I tend to think, because you never know by making that decision whether or not one is taking away from the true nature of what we're supposed to be doing here for Him.

But at the very minimum, we see what's wrong with this place. We know of the evil that we're living in, we recognize what's wrong with just about everything we see. And there's that sense of isolation, undoubtedly. And as you mention, there is every reason to believe that Jesus felt the same -

"There are always people who we may lovingly admonish and rebuke but who will say "You don't act very Christ-like! Why don't you act like Jesus?" But if they actually knew who Jesus was, they'd realize that we already are because they would understand that Jesus hated what was wrong, loved what was right and wasn't afraid to show and tell people how He felt. What, the "love and light" people say?! "Jesus HATED!" Yes, in fact, the Scriptures say that He hated more then anyone else in his lineage..."

I like every word of this paragraph, except one, that which conjoins the Son of the Father with the word hate. There's an enormous difference between hate and frustration. We have all felt hate at some point in our life, and I would doubt that any of us came out better with whatever they were facing by feeling hate.

Contrary to what we find in so much of the current movement, it's important to remember that Scripture points out that Jesus raised His voice only one time in the temple. He was also adimately unhappy with the state of the world He was living in, and He clearly pointed out what He felt was wrong with it.
And we find many of those same things once again in today's world. How can we possibly be happy with so much of what we find in today's world-the corruption to be found in so many areas of organized relgions, general greed, adultry, deception, HATE, advantage taking, broken families/homes, lost souls, victims of the evils that have been created

To condemn the word "Hate" hate here might seem to be somewhat nit picky. Again, we all know that He was extremely angry with the world around Him, and its system.

But never, ever will I support any such theory that suggests the notion that Christ hated. Hate is a human quality. Though I might not have actual scripture to support my feelings, I have to refuse to believe the Jesus I know hated anyone at all. That type of assumption can only come from the intellect and/or interpretation of man, we that shall always fall short of the true glory of Christ.

Christ also loved His children more than just about anything. His love for children was very apparent, going so far as to point them out as an example for us to live by. Thus, even though there is certainly the requirement to remain steadfast in faith, to stay true to the Word and stay strong within, I think we sometimes need to embrace the message behind the innocent love of our children, too.

I've probably witnessed Christ's true meaning by simply observing the actions of the little ones He brings into the world more than I have in the words of any fire and brimstone sermon, which is not to say that I don't take such potential fate seriously. It is only to say that I will forever choose the meaning behind God's true love and goodness before I concern myself with the fate that the devil has in store for us if we choose the wrong path.

So, while sin and all of its evils is enough to break our heart in today's world, I would almost have to argue that so too can be the selfishness that comes by soley focusing on all of the negatives and evils, which I myself have certainly been a victim of recently.

Though there is exceptional goodness and meaning among those that gather to give glory to the Father, we must also not allow ourselves to become too overburdened by the evils of this place. That is certainly not to say that we need to change ourselves in order to feel better about it. Afterall, we've arrived where we are because we see the truth to all of this.

But at that point we probably have a choice to make. Do we sit back and pity the world and do nothing, or do we go out and try to do good for Him. Christ indirectly referenced our need to assist the poor over 500 times in the New Testament, I've been told. Thus, one never knows what type of reward might be created for His lost souls by volunteering for a day or two at the Salvation Army. What about going over to visit that little lonely grandma down the block that appears to have little else to do each day but walk her little dog up and down the block for a half hour, etc.

For those with mass fortunes, there might always be that child that can be saved through your contributions, much like the circumstances involved with the ficticious teenager considering having an abortion, etc.

Until His return, we will always live on that same dark world, and it's not going to change because we've seen the truth. All we can do is work to bring love to the hearts of those that have lost their way, and to do all that we can to honor Him and return His truth to the world, though we mustn't be rebellious.
God ='s love, we know that. So giving love a try can never hurt. And sometimes anger is part of love, certainly, but I do think that a person has to be very cautious w/ it, never allowing it take control. To feel the sadness of this world is entirely justified, but to allow the anger that might result from such can become a dangerous pathway for one's soul, on the same hand, one that might allow love to take a backseat to anger, or even worse yet, hate itself.
 
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Bingo !!! . Talk about shining light on the devil . Right on time coco . God brings all things to light , tho some try hard to hide . Great thread . MikeT4G :star:
 
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I Hate

This may seem like a peculiar statement from a gospel preacher. It is true. Not only is it true, but if I am faithful to Christ I must hate.

I know love is the greatest thing in the world (1 Corinthians 13:13). I know that love is great, that it passes knowledge (Ephesians 3:19). I know that Jesus said the love of God surpasses everything else: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great commandment" (Matthew 22:37,38). Yet to serve God faithfully I must hate with a passion.

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:16). Any other 'way' is a false way.

Now listen to this: "Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way" (Psalm 119:104). "You who love the LORD, hate evil!" (Psalm 97:10). "Hate evil, love good" (Amos 5:15).

David, inspired by the Holy Spirit, goes even farther and says: "Do I not hate them, O Lord, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with a perfect hatred; I count them my enemies" (Psalm 139:21,22).

God hates corrupt religion. He warned Israel not to adopt heathen forms of worship: "You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:31,32).

God hates evil men: "The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity" (Psalm 5:5).

David, the man after God's own heart (Acts 13:22), wrote: "I have hated the congregation of evildoers, and will not sit with the wicked" (Psalm 26:5); "I have hated those who regard vain idols; but I trust in the LORD" (Psalm 31:6).

In the world around us there are many things which God hates.

"These six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Proverbs 6:16-19)

They who love God must hate the things which God hates.

When wisdom speaks in Proverbs she says: "The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; pride and arrogance and the evil way and the perverse mouth I hate"(Proverbs 8:13).

"A righteous man hates lying" (Proverbs 13:5). "A ruler who lacks understanding is a great oppressor, but he who hates covetousness will prolong his days" (Proverbs 28:16).

Through the prophet Isaiah, God said to Israel: "Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them" (Isaiah 1:14). These were the very things that God commanded, but He says He hates them. Why? "Your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, reprove the oppressor; defend the fatherless, plead for the widow" (Isaiah 1:15b-17).

If our heart is not pure then our worship is not acceptable before God. Jesus said: "These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honour Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:8,9).

Before the end of the first century there had arisen a sect called the Nicolaitans. Christ commended the church at Ephesus because they hated this perversion of the faith: "But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate" (Revelation 2:6).

The church at Pergamos was reprimanded because of Nicolaitans in their midst: "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth" (Revelation 2:15).

Jesus hated false doctrine; so did Paul. "If anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:9).

"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed" (1 Corinthians 16:22).

The writer to the Hebrews says of Christ: "You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions" (Hebrews 1:9).

"Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor (detest utterly) what is evil. Cling to what is good" Romans 12:9

J. C. Bailey
-Published in The Old Paths Archive

When you love God, you hate evil (Psalm 97:10). Hating evil is not synonymous hating the perpetrator of that evil. I must preach against sin that God hates because I want the sinner to come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, repent of their sin and trust Christ as their Savior. Pray the Word of God shakes us from our apathy and stirs within us a renewed passion for the Salvation message!

Those who have "lost thier first love" (Rev 2:4) for Jesus Christ, or "those who seek thier own, not the the things that are Jesus Christs" (Phi 2:21) would have us feign passion for Him, with empty platitudes, but we must not! Some would quicker defend their earthly possessions with more zeal. Who among us would allow another to attack His or her home, or spouse or children without drawing on some emotion (hatred for evil)! Does that suggest these are really our 'first loves?'
I will conclude by issuing you the same challenge Paul issued ;

1Co 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
 
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Excellent read thank you very much for sharing this sister. Expose those pathetic devils all the way and laugh, enjoy it together with Christ. We need to protect oursevles with the Word of GOD, prayer, fasting, fellowship with TRUE Christians. We need to study the Word of GOD and feed our spirits His Word daily. The more you drink His Word and Christ's Blood, the more your "full" and satisifed.

Put on the Armour of GOD. One of my favorite passages:

Ephesians 6:10-18

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints
 
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"Put on the WHOLE Armour of GOD." AMEN Chad! Glory to God!
We will never be overcomers if we strive to do so with
only the armour of peace! A closer look at that verse you quoted shows its only a piece of the armour. A soldier would look pretty silly going to battle with only his boots on.;)

To a clergyman during the early war period, Lincoln made a significant remark. "let us have faith, Mr President," the minister intoned with great solemnity,"that the Lord is on our side during this great struggle."

To which Lincoln quietly retorted, "I am not at all concerned about that, for I know the Lord is always on the side of the right; but it is my constant anxiety and prayer, that I and this nation may be on the Lord's side."
 
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Coconut said:
Lincoln quietly retorted, "I am not at all concerned about that, for I know the Lord is always on the side of the right; but it is my constant anxiety and prayer, that I and this nation may be on the Lord's side."

Sweet goosebumps :) I love that line!
 
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So sad

:rose: I think it is really sad when a member of talkjesus, slights other members and treats them with contempt. I don't find that many people here are infants in need of weaning. What I hope not to find is "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c] Simple faith is beautiful and I have seen such beautiful faith in the simple people that come to talkjesus. In that, I have rejoiced.
Understanding of the Lord, comes in such simple ways. And I love the simplicity of the soft spoken of the Lord.
If I see too much of this kind of rejection of the people I have loved here, I don't think that I could go on being a member of talkjesus. It contradicts all that I feel in loving our Lord Jesus Christ. Wisdom brings understanding to many in her own way and I pray that the understanding that we all have, is based on the love of God and not intellectualism. A simple prayer or prayer request, can be so beautiful and of the Lord.
The Holy Spirit speaks in many ways. Let the way of the Lord be as He said "My Father's house has many rooms".
May our Lord bless us, according to the gifts that He has provided for us and I pray that no one feels chastized from an opinion of one. Amen: Pixie
 
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pixie said:
:rose: I think it is really sad when a member of talkjesus, slights other members and treats them with contempt. I don't find that many people here are infants in need of weaning. What I hope not to find is "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c] Simple faith is beautiful and I have seen such beautiful faith in the simple people that come to talkjesus. In that, I have rejoiced.
Understanding of the Lord, comes in such simple ways. And I love the simplicity of the soft spoken of the Lord.
If I see too much of this kind of rejection of the people I have loved here, I don't think that I could go on being a member of talkjesus. It contradicts all that I feel in loving our Lord Jesus Christ. Wisdom brings understanding to many in her own way and I pray that the understanding that we all have, is based on the love of God and not intellectualism. A simple prayer or prayer request, can be so beautiful and of the Lord.
The Holy Spirit speaks in many ways. Let the way of the Lord be as He said "My Father's house has many rooms".
May our Lord bless us, according to the gifts that He has provided for us and I pray that no one feels chastized from an opinion of one. Amen: Pixie
I'm a little concerned about your reply pixie. Where do you see any mention here about anyone slighting any member on Talk Jesus? Dont' you know by now they will be banned without question? There is no room for hate on Talk Jesus. Do you know something I don't? I hope you will share this with me via private message, otherwise explain what your referring to here.

God bless you
 
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You know this thread is quite a read! Jiggy I have to so agree with you ! It is very comfortable to stay in a cozy nook of growth. I have noticed though to grow is hard because you have to go thru things to grow. (Just like children who would have thunk it :) ) I tell you the truth that sometimes its soooo hard to go thru that time... Staying in the word prayer, fasting , praiseing God and worshiping Him really really helps.

Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.


I know that I am still very young in the Lord.. I am though growing ! I think that is what is important to continue to grow, because we will never fully be "done"


Love in Christ
Jlu
 
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Jesuslovesu said:
You know this thread is quite a read! Jiggy I have to so agree with you ! It is very comfortable to stay in a cozy nook of growth. I have noticed though to grow is hard because you have to go thru things to grow. (Just like children who would have thunk it :) ) I tell you the truth that sometimes its soooo hard to go thru that time... Staying in the word prayer, fasting , praiseing God and worshiping Him really really helps.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope: Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
I know that I am still very young in the Lord.. I am though growing ! I think that is what is important to continue to grow, because we will never fully be "done"
Love in Christ
Jlu
Amen Sister... there is two sides to God Almighty...one is his wrath on the children of disobedience...and one of total love and compassion on the children of light, not to fear if we are walking in his love and truth, and of coarse Christ died for the ungodly. But we must repent of sin, or the chastisement of the lord will come on us, as even an earthly father corrects his own children. For if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the sinner appear. Now that is real love, as Coconut is trying to say here.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


God bless all
 
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Response

At a personal level, I can only hope that I wasn't the source for stirring any of this up. If so, I dearly apologize to all of those that I might have offended somewhere along the way. If any of this might be the result of the fact that I'm not an expert on Scripture like others, I understand why some of my posts could've offended some, I suppose. No words of man come before the Scripture, afterall.

But I love God and His Son so, so much. Like you, I also hate sin, but I just can't find it within to center my focus on hate when the message of Christ's love is so abundantly clear to me, and is something far more powerful than the devil's evils.

Having grown up with a challenging medical condition, I know I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for the fact that I've had Christ's love to turn to throughout my life. His love has saved me time and time again, in countless ways.

When I was growing up, there were two ministers at my church. The first was a soft spoken, kind hearted man filled with the type of love for others so few others have ever had. Out of respect from his example, the thought of sin was impossible to come by. There was such goodness in him, in other words, goodness I know that had been delivered by the hand of Christ itself. He was always there to embrace those that were ill, that had fallen on hard times, etc. He was really a beautiful person all around, a rare one.

He was very soft spoken in his ways and lessons, however, which didn't impress some of the elders of the church, and therefore they moreless chased him out of the church.

He was replaced by an aggressive natured minister, one that wasn't afraid to warn others about their fate if they happened to choose the wrong path in life. He was also a beautiful singer, one that insisted the congregation gather at his singing performances away from church, etc. Unfortunately, he was also one that did a poor job of attending to those that were hospitalized. He chose favourites within the congregation. Finally, after requesting an increase in pay, they let him go. Because I'm human, I can say that I liked the first one better, obviously.

And there will certainly be the day that I will come to read the Bible in full, and will come to learn its passages. I will memorize several of them just like several here have. That's my top goal.

Yet, I will tell you up front that regardless of what comes of that, I will never, ever allow hate to dominate the soul over the grace of His love. The sadness, anger, and frustration of so much of what we find today will always be there, certainly. I already feel that. I hate sin, my own, especially. But to put that ahead of the grace and meaning of His love is something that I cannot do.

Thankfully, there are several I've come across in life that have read and certainly embrace the Bible and feel the same way. I've seen it in them, and I've seen the power God has given them to convert the sinner. We can never escape our sinful natures, I know, but we can certainly try to change for the better and go do good for Him. And I've witnessed those that have the ability to help others like this first hand. But they have not changed such people through the power of fear, but rather by introducing them to the love of Christ. Once you are with Him in love, afterall, though there are those occassions where sin will always try to bring you back down, the overall message that I've been given in life by those that God has put before my path is that the power of His love will always defeat the evils of this world, and the evils of its people.

I probably ruffled some feathers of a few by hinting that some of today's porn stars and the likes have gone through experiences in their own lives that might explain for some of their decision making, etc. Perhaps that is why some might bill others as having falled into the trap of the the antichrist, etc.

Yet, to ignore the notion that 90% of today's adult film actresses were molested as children might also be a bit nieve. At least that's the way I would look at it.

For any of those that would associate such a viewpoint with the idea that presenting such a fact would ever be consistent with that of holding a supportive view of pornography is a ridiculous conclusion, first and foremost. That's not the suggestion.

Rather, the intention is to point out yet another of the evils we face. We can never justify sin, I understand that.

On the same hand, however, it seems to me that Christ Himself happened to save a prostitute back in the day. She had to want to change, of course, first and foremost.

But unlike today's world, the first words out of Jesus' mouth was not that she was to be condemned to hell on the spot if she didn't change than and there. Rather, to my understanding, at least, He embraced, than mended her broken soul. He revealed the truth to her, and than she herself came to believe in His message, and eventually became one of His most devout followers.

Compare that to today's atmosphere. On the one hand, half of our people probably wouldn't think twice about the nature of the backgrounds of such people, while those that do care warn them of hell before ever presenting them with the grace of God's love. It's easy to preach, I've learned. It's an entirely altogether different thing to actually make the effort to go out and do.

If, after doing so, the person doesn't turn to Him, than there's nothing more that can be done for them. If he/she would not make the willing committment, the effort was all for not. But at least the effort would have been made to save a soul, on the same hand.

The most dissapointing thing that I've noticed about this current movement is the fact that everything has become "Good vs evil." It is, perhaps, this issue alone that has been the greatest source of trouble for me.

We know without question that the devil is having his way with today's world. We know that, that's what we hate about what we find.

On the same hand, however, it seems like the majority of those fueling this current movement have given up on the thought of actually helping to save any of those that have fallen.

The "Tougher we get," it seems like the more and more seperation takes hold. I'm not necessarily saying that about the personal relationship, but sometimes the more we develop that kind of mindset, the more we wind up acting like that around other people. That's good in the perspective of elaboration on sin, but at that point the game gets a little bit tricky regarding the way we deal with others, that's my point.

"We're in the end times, that's to be expected. This is the war."

Perhaps that's the case. Perhaps it is that those engaged in sin are doing so in outright defiance of God, and/or are too self centered to put Him above themselves. I don't understand it, personally. I don't know what's happened.

But at that point, do we pack it up and nestle ourselves away into our own world? The most important part of being a Christian is the personal relationship with Him, afterall. He must come before all others, obviously, so maybe that's all that's needed.

But what about the 18 year old that grew up in an abusive home, one that had been neglected, etc. Do we just say a prayer for the world at that point and hope it's enough? Or are there circumstances that, through His grace, we ourselves, as His servants, can do to help rescue them. If so, what type of effort is required? And if that effort is chosen, is "Tough love" always the right way to go? Or might there be circumstances where there are those that walk among us that have been beat up by this place so very terribly that in order for them to ever be saved, the grace of His love and the comfort such brings is their only way to being saved. If the latter is required, the "War vs evil" mindset is hardly going to do much good. Show them His love, first, however, and one never knows what kind of miracle might be in store for them by His graces.

Love takes many forms, I understand that. Sometimes love requires toughness, sometimes love requires telling the truth to others. Sometimes love might even involve anger. Sometimes, too, love must equal love. And it still seems to me that the greater that the society has moved away from love's most basic form, the more it is that pain and sin has surfaced.

I was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes at the age of 15 months. My parents were told that I had a 5-10% chance of surviving. At the minimum, brain damage would be a certainty.

The night this was told to them, my parents called my church and requested a prayer chain. Over 400 participated. My grandmother, a devout born again Christian, stood at my bedside for days with her Bible.

A few years ago, my parents ran into a nurse that had been working up there back when this happened. Recently retired, knowing mom and dad were Christians, and she herself being of faith, she decided to tell them about what happened behind the scenes that night.

It turns out that after I had slipped into a coma, one of the ER doctors put in an emergency order for a medication. As it turns out, however, a young pharmacist happened to send up the wrong medicine, one that was moreless the opposite of what had been ordered.

It turns out it was that medicine that saved my life. Had I been given the one the doctor had ordered, I wouldn't have made it, according to the nurse.
All of this occuring, mind you, while over 400 were involved in that chain of prayer, and as grandma roamed the halls with her Bible, never taking a moment to stop in prayer for me.

To the day, I still have no major complications from this disease to speak of. A recent MRA and EEG showed perfect brain function, which, medically speaking, is impossible.

At certain points along the way in life, there have been those that have wanted to baby me here or there, you know. Within, I treasure the meaning of their gesture, their heart, etc. But yet I've never accepted that mindset at a personal level, and that's because out of this hardship has come a certain type of proof of life that I get to keep forever. I will always have that took look back on in life as an example of His grace, and therefore would not change my own life with anyone else's, regardless of a few of the hardships that can be part of things along the way. In the end, afterall, our time here on earth is but a blink of the eye in the bigger picture of things, so there is no time for self pity.

Throught my journey, God has put definitive meaning in this life by those that He has placed before me. My parents and family, first and foremost, who's love has been monumental.

The doctor that soon took over my care went onto become a devout born again Christian. He now heads a major male movement group in the city I live. He is a precious man with a precious heart that God came to.

And than there was certainly the pastor I referenced up above. I found more meaning in this loyal servant of Christ's love than just about any other outside of my own family. And there have been others, too.

Though I myself fall so short of God's grace, as do all of us, my heart will never venture away from the beautiful place that God has created for me along the way. To surrender to the notion that I must feel literal hate for this world would mean, to me, at least, that I would have to ignore the joyous gift of life that He's given to me, and all of the examples that He has brought forth along the way.

There are those that warn about man's opinion, and there is definitely a point to be made in that. Therefore, I'm sure there are those that will condemn lengthy posts like this from a poster that admits to not having read the Bible in great detail.

But, to ignore the beautiful proofs of life that God has placed in our lives would be like telling others that they can't witness for Him, wouldn't it? Maybe I'm wrong about that. I don't know, I guess. I know for certain within that I'm not allowed to preach because I haven't read the Bible in great detail, but I guess I thought it was ok to witness for Him, and to take away meaning from what He's put before my path. And I did grow up learning about several of the good book's accounts. It's not like I haven't read a single Bible verse and know absolutely nothing of God or His Son. But nor am I an expert, so maybe I shouldn't share any of my opinions, I just don't know the answer to these types of questions, I guess.

I will never be happy about the structure of today's sinful world like all of you. On the same hand, however, I will never allow the word hate into my life in any capacity, I know that upfront. Frustration, dissapointment, yes. Hate, never. There's only one person that I'll ever hate in life, and that's the devil himself.

As for all of those engaged in a life of sin, there is always still hope that they shall be saved. I might not know as much as others here when it comes to the Bible, but I do cherish what I do know, and He has placed those before me in life that have read the Bible in full, those that have read the same passages and feel the same pain as we all do. But they have chosen to embrace the message of His love more than anything, and I would have a hard time believing that they are any lesser of people just because they are actively trying to participate with love in this evil world at what they do. They refuse to embrace any part of the devil's message of hate, to my knowledge, at least.

Perhaps the day will come when, after reading the Scripture, my opinions will change. But I'll tell you upfront that I will be doing everything in my power to make sure that I never allow such to be the driving force behind the motives of my relationship with Christ. He made the type of sacrifice for all of us that no other will ever match. There is more meaning in what He did for us than any other single purpose behind our own lives. And though He clearly held the same frustrations that we do, and warned us what would become of us if our loyalties did not remain on target, focused with the Father, He made the ultimate sacrifice for us. And while His days were filled with personal resentment and persecutation, in the end, His life ='d love, and the beauty found behind its entire meaning will forever go unmatched.

To all of those here, please understand that I have only chosen to say what I have based on the adimate beliefs of my heart when it comes to my personal relationship. That's my purpose with this.

I thank all of you for your kindness during my time here. Thank you so, so much for your heartfelt replies to my post last week.

At this time, I politely ask one of the moderators, or the website owner, to remove/cancel my account/subscription from this website. Please understand that I fully recognize there are dear people here, wonderful servants. However, I do belong to another community where there are also several wonderful posters. Rather than working between two different places, I probably made a mistake here by signing up for another one.

Thank you so much. Peace be with all of you.
 
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Perhaps the day will come when, after reading the Scripture, I too will come to hold a rebellious nature like this. But I'll tell you upfront that I will be doing everything in my power to make sure that I never allow such to be the driving force behind the motives of my relationship with Christ.
I am sorry you seem to misunderstand intent here Brother, and I wish you would read these messages again. An exortation to love the truth more than our very lives, is not a message of hate. It is a Godly warning! Will you or I love the lost, or one another, enough to speak the truth? Dare we think we love more than God loves, by withholding what is truth, so to spare our brother or ourselves any discomfort? Our love pales in comparison to Gods love, yet God commands men everywhere to repent! The woman caught in the very act of adultry, Jesus looked on with compassion, and listen to compassions next words "Go, and sin no more!"
You presume to suggest because we preach intolerance to the devils lies, that we do not have Christs love. Drug addicted, immoral, and profane young men throw thier arms around me to hug me, and affectionately call me 'mom', and my understanding is, "except for the grace of God there go I", but my love and compassion for these, only compels me to tell them they are lost with no hope if they do not accept Jesus Christ! I hate the evil that causes thier suffering, and the lies that keep them or anyone of us in bondage, or under any sort of delussion, without apology!

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
 
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"An exortation to love the truth more than our very lives, is not a message of hate. It is a Godly warning! Will you or I love the lost, or one another, enough to speak the truth? Dare we think we love more than God loves, by withholding what is truth, so to spare our brother or ourselves any discomfort?"

Absolutely not, Coconut. The words you speak here are very well spoken. It is in fact, the reality.

Essentially, you and I find ourselves in the same place, Coconut. I know precisely what you mean through your words. I know precisely that you mean well, and than some. You are trying to save souls, to share with others the great warning, which, in and of itself, is an attempt to save others, something that is the ultimate selfless act. Your intentions are pure, and I applaud them greatly.

The lone disagreement that seems to be in my heart w/ this, Coconut, involves the particular group of those that have engaged in sin yet know so little about the repercussions of their actions. There are those that sin with purpose, others that become trapped in a life of misunderstanding, and/or complete unawareness. I really do believe that. Unfortunately, these tend to be the same people that are so broken down by life that they could care less about their ultimate fate. One glance at today's suicide numbers among the population has to tell us something.

I am not dismissing the notion that these people must find God the right way. We can't pat them on the back as they continue on for years and years living a life of sin, etc. I completely understand that, and I agree with you in full, as is the case with 99% of the aspects of the general argument here altogether.

I might not have any direct Bible verse to support the following viewpoint, so please understand that I speak with no authority on the issue, which hasn't been the intention with one word of what I've written. Sharing what I believe based on the examples of life is one thing, that which I've been doing here. To claim that I have the right to speak with authority is something I will not do.

While some might call what I'm doing the mark of an opinionated fool, I still cannot ignore the message that lies within. But that doesn't mean I'm right about any of it. I am never going to pretend that I myself have the direct authority to speak for Him directly, I cannot and will not do that. Perhaps there is Scripture that says we can do that, maybe there isn't.

I find enormous value in the message of Christ, however, and it seems that so much of the reason that so many were drawn to His calling was the result of His overall example-that which was based on love, that which was based on both compassion and warning/concern for His followers to put a hault to their sinful ways.

But it almost seems to me (Opinion only, remember) that it was the love of Christ (IE-the compassion He had for the poor, the children that He embraced, the ultimate loyalty and love that He had for those that were loyal to Him) that fueled the transformation. Once they witnessed the beauty of His heart and the example that came with it, they were told to sin no more, and they obeyed.

The key issue here, Coconut, is that I don't want to plunge into that world where only darkness exists, where there is no joy to be found in ANY corner of life, and that is because while there is no doubt that we live in an evil place, I also believe that He has given us some goodness/love to life,too.

That doesn't mean that one must join the sinful nature of the world, it only means that I do think that one can still find some limited joy in the areas where it does still exist.

After getting through some of the rough first weeks, there is still nothing more beautiful than the way a little baby looks up at his/her mom and smiles so innocently. Unable to speak, unable to do anything for itself, babies are born with the abilitiy to look up at mom and smile with glee. There's God given beauty in that, something that allows for us to take some joy away from this world. And there aren't many of them, so the ones we do have, I think we better cherish them.

When we walk past a disabled peson living on the street, is it our duty to tell them to go and sin no more, or do we attempt to embrace them, hug them, and do what can be done to send them back on their way on their journey with the Father.

My only point being, Coconut, is that the definition of love takes many forms. Based on my own experience, under certain circumstances, there are certain exceptions to "Tough love."

Such is certainly required in some cases, and that's all that might be required. In other areas, however, perhaps there might be some truth to the notion that those with broken hearts must be embraced first, and once mended, than told of what is to come for them if they do change their sinful ways. That's my only point on this matter to speak of, Coco. I'm not one that can carry around a whipping stick everywhere I go in life. There's too much sin on my own shoulders. I don't feel worthy of doing that to people in certain situations when it doesn't look like their hearts can handle anymore hurt.

But that doesn't mean that I believe a person can't try to help these people, it is only to say that in certain cases people might have to be comforted. You never know if, by the power of the love God has placed in our hearts, they might be able to turn away from a life of sin.

If I'm wrong about that type of belief, than by all means you would have every right to tell me why it would be consistent with the antichrist's false teachings to embrace the fallen, and than be hopeful that they be lifted up by the grace of God through prayer, comfort, etc. Since when did Mother Theresa become a sinister follower of the antichrist? I guess that's what I would be asking you here. To support the example of His compassion is not to dismiss the scripture.

Thankfully, my faith remains strong. I will take what you have to say and than judge it compared to my interpretation of the scripture. Maybe I'll see the exact same thing you do, maybe I won't. But I for one would be a little more cautious the next time around with a few of the inuendos. Whether you choose to admit it or not, referring to beginners on this journey, those that specifically address the fact that they are trying to make sense of their new life and what they are supposed to do from here, as those that have been influenced by the antichrist without giving specific reasoning for the allegation, that can be hurtful. I can take it, but what if I had been that knew nothing of God but had come here to learn something about Him. Than, within days, whether it had been directly or indirectly, the inuendo is dropped that his/her beliefs are more in line with the antichrist than they are of God's own word. A specific explanation should at least be granted to the accused, one would think, rather than a line of versus that "Beginners" know little about.

There isn't a single word of the scripture that I'm detesting. I'm not the devil that has come here to distort the truth. Rather, I came here to seek the truth, though evidently some here are more concerned about putting up a code red about the presence of the antichrist behind his/her back, simply because they spotted something they didn't like in one's personal testimonies, evidently.

I am well aware of the fact that my "My feelings" do not hold prevelance over the written word. That was never my intention w/ this, and you should be able to see that. The only issue I take is a single post describing the possibilities that one's life is being guided by the antichrist if he/she does not engage in warning others of sin the way that a certain segment sees fit. It's not about the merits of the argument, wasn't about whether or not it's right to warn others of the potential outcome of wrongful decision making. That is the right thing to do. The only thing I was hoping for was to bring up a discussion on the methods that would be options if a person truly feels a desire from within to go about a project like that.

If it is true that Jesus referenced our need to assist the poor over 500 times in the Bible, I am only left to assume, at this point, at least, that He too shared the ideology of true love and compassion in some form or the other. One can only hope that assumption is to be allowed. I can't imagine any other purpose for Him saying such if His heart is not filled with compassion for the weak and broken. However, not having read the Scripture in detail, perhaps I am wrong to assume such. Perhaps I am indeed misguided. The scripture itself will give me that answer, thankfully.

As is the case for all Christians, however, one must always look at those on that same journey with Him (The real one) as those being in fellowship with Him. I think of you in that way, Coco. And once again, we agree on 99% of this. Perhaps, after I complete the Bible, it will be 100%, I don't know yet.

To do what you do for others is certainly not representative of hate, I understand that. You are doing your best to help others the best way you see fit, according to the Scripture itself, you contend, and that I applaud.

While I know nothing close to what you do in terms of direct scripture, Coco, the only thing I can do is plead with you to understand the viewpoints I hold at this point in my journey.

We agree on the purpose, and we agree on the definition of love itself. The issue, definition, and applicability of compassion is about the only thing that might seperate us a little bit, Coco, as well as any quote or reference that literally associates the word hate with the heart of Jesus.

Jesus felt anger and frustration over the wickedness of the world that He belonged to, yes. But I refuse to believe that Jesus hated, regardless of the countless evils that stood before Him. Again, that's only an opinion, but based on everything and anything that I've ever known about hate, it is everything and anything that Jesus is not.

That might be a nit picky statement on the nature of terminology, but as far as the meaning of the word goes, there is only one person that admires hate, that being the devil himself, the exact opposite of which Christ represents.

It was not my intention to speak over you, or against you, Coco. I know that your heart is in the right place, my friend. I know that you mean nothing but good, and I applaud you for all that you do for Him. I'm sure that you've done some wonderful things for our lost souls through the years. More than I ever have at this point in my life, I'm sure.

Similar to the disagreement you might have had with me, Coco, I had to respond. For each of us, nothing comes above God in our own lives, so that's why these things can happen at certain times. I would hope that you can understand that.

I most certainly respect you, my friend. Thanks for your message, in addition to all of your efforts. Take care.
 
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God bless you Brother mccarty, the spirit of your letters reveal the true love and compassion of our Saviour for those that are lost.
I hope the readers understand these messages are written to those who have once believed;

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren...Let no man deceive you by any means: ...For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:...And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

At the crux of Christs message, our love for truth, must overrule our desire to make a show of love and unity. I`ve come across so many 'christians' who will not speak the truth if it means they will be less liked because of it, or for a pretense of keeping the peace, while the Spirit within groans to give utterance to truth!
If our desire is to be Christ-like, I ask then where is the Christ-likeness in such self-centered love?
Scripture teaches truth and love are bound together, inseparable, tho many strive to separate them, and say only love matters. " My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth." 1Jo 3:18

Pehaps terminology does create a problem here. I know the word 'hate' does`nt gel with our understanding of God, and the use of it produces negative emotion and perhaps conflict. But if Jesus Christ is truly "God in the flesh"...and the Word tells us He (God/Christ) "hates"...then we should try to grasp exactly what He means, instead of saying it can`t be so.
To lend a little clarity to that, the Scripture says repeatedly that God is a jealous God. Scripture also speaks of a "spirit of jealousy" overcoming a man...the latter obviously coming from that which is evil. In the same manner, the righteous hatred and indignation of God is not to be equated with the evil hatred that is satans for the children of God. How difficult to even try to define the emotions of God, His weeping, His wrath, His judgement, His jealousy, His unfathomable love...with our limited human comprehension...I know we cannot grasp it, but His Word stands sure.


Paul said in Phi 3:7 "But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them dung, that I may win Christ;"

And further ... "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:"

"For each of us, nothing comes above God in our own lives" Amen!
 
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"At the crux of Christs message, our love for truth, must overrule our desire to make a show of love and unity. I`ve come across so many 'christians' who will not speak the truth if it means they will be less liked because of it, or for a pretense of keeping the peace, while the Spirit within groans to give utterance to truth!"

That's another excellent point, coco, and I know that I've failed in this area. It wasn't as much the fear of what he/she might think of me, for I no longer concern myself with that type of thing in this new life.

The only problem I've had is the delicate balance of knowing precisely when to relay that message, coco. I understand you better now. You certainly speak the truth when you say that we are cheating God, self, and others if we don't relay that truth. I agree 100% there. Again, my only concern involves the issue of timing in the more complicated cases, as well as the total overall effort required for these types of efforts.

The drive within to bring good to others is coming from the Holy Spirit, I'm convinced of that much. I am not trying to do good so that I might "Look good" to others, I know that. That's not what this is, it's altogether different now. I can only assume that this marks the beginning of whatever He has in store for me to do. There's a lot of confusion in this type of area for those of us that have just started on the journey.

Deep down, I have a lot of confusion to understand why you suddenly wake up one day and crave to do good. I've been told the Scripture says that we can never do enough to impress Him, but that's not what's fueling this. He means everything, but this actual part is not being done to "Achieve points from Him," you know.

I'll just keep praying about it, and will begin my study of the Scripture shortly. Eventually, it'll all come together.

Please understand that there were other factors involved in my decision to close my account here and return to my other Christian form, coco. Some people either left this place or were kicked off recently for reasons that I couldn't quite pick up on. So at this point in my journey, I'm better off at the other website until I can fully read the Scripture.

Again, however, thanks to all of you for your time and effort. Take care.
 
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Accepted Jesus Christ:
Uncertain


Brother mccarty? you are in here teaching and almost debating the word of God, and you are uncertain of your own salvation? Perhaps you should get certain first friend, then you can be approved to teach? Its not a wise thing to teach the word.. if your still seeking the truth.

Question: Are you a Christian, and only uncertain of when you accepted Christ? I`m editing this so there will be no confusion between us brother.

God bless
 
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Brother

For the fifth time, friend, I don't pretend to be teaching, or preaching.

It is only personal testimony of my love for Him.

Judge me as you wish, for I am nothing compared to the Father or Jesus Christ. Just keep your heart and loyalty steadfast in the complete Word of God, and the example for us to live by set forth by His dear Son, Jesus Christ. That's all I ask, my friend.

That, and to remember those less fortunate in life than you are. I did attend Bible school, sir. I know a little bit about the Bible, sir, just not enough yet.

Thanks for sharing your concerns.
 
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