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The Concepts of 'Paulism' vs. The Teachings Of Christ

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by MorningStar, Jan 16, 2012.

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  1. The Concepts of 'Paulism' vs. The Teachings Of Christ is a discussion about the teachings of Paul in contrast and/or correlation to what Jesus taught that was ongoing in another thread.
  2. #2 MorningStar, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
    According to the Bible, Paul knew and mentions very little about the life of Jesus. (Granted this was still at a time when the four Gospels were not yet written), but Paul never mentions any of the major events of Jesus's life except the Lord’s supper and resurrection....

    Paul fails to mention significant events:
    Virgin Birth, Mary and Joseph
    The Lord's Prayer
    The Transfiguration
    The Sermon on the Mount
    Major Miracles
    Major Parables
    Sea of Galilee
    Jesus's Temple Visit
    Pontius Pilate
    Judas Iscariot’s Betrayal
    ...and several others.

    Why would Paul fail to mention these hugely important and relevant events? In his book 'Gospel Truth' Graham Stanton (Professor of New Testament Studies in the University of London), says that Paul's failure to mention the actions and specific teachings of Jesus is, quote, 'baffling.' Also of interest to scholars is why Jesus and other apostles never specifically mention Paul, especially Mark, his early companion. Curiously, the four Gospels neither mention nor even hint at a pioneering apostle called Paul. For the gospel writers, Paul seems completely invisible. Equally curious is that Paul's letters reciprocate their invisibility by no mention of apostolic writings. Even the tax collecting evangelist Matthew, known for speaking of the prophesies for the coming of Jesus out of Judaic scripture, is never formally addressed in any Pauline epistle.

    Regarding soteriology, Paul even differs in opinion to what brings salvation in comparison to what Jesus taught...

    While Jesus, Paul, James, Peter and the Old Testament all state for us to obey God if we wish to enter into heaven through Jesus, Paul seems to go in another direction with what we commonly refer to as the "faith alone vs. faith through works conflict" common to many Christian circles and churches.

    The faith alone vs. faith through works conflict is of course addressed within scriptures. Both Peter and James address this conflict with the teachings of Paul - (2 Peter 3:14-15) (James 2:14-26). [Peter gives warning this issue is an end of times issue (2 Peter 3:8-18)]. Jesus deals with this in (Matthew 7:21) (Luke 6:43).


    2 Peter 3:14-15 - "So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30538">15</sup> Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him."


    James 2:14-26 - "What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30309">15</sup> Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30310">16</sup> If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30311">17</sup> In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30312">18</sup> But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30313">19</sup> You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30314">20</sup> You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30315">21</sup> Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30316">22</sup> You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30317">23</sup> And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30318">24</sup> You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30319">25</sup> In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30320">26</sup> As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

    Paul says in 2 Gal 2:15 -
    "We, who are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles, (yet) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."
    Jesus says in Mat 19:16 -
    "Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments" "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied "You shall not kill"; 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'You shall not steal'; 'You shall not bear false witness'; 'Honor your father and mother'; and 'Love your neighbor as yourself."
    So in summary to this introduction of the "Pauline writings" or known to some as Paulism...

    As we all know, had it not been for Pauline writings, Christianity would have likely never spread as fast during the 1st century AD. However, considering these differences, the Apostle Paul seems less than a perfect spokesperson for Jesus. (In fact, Paul often spoke of his misgivings about himself and showed his humility at times, and boasting of his works in others). But, if Paul and Jesus differ in their teachings, especially regarding soteriology, and how we should live our lives, whose words should we ultimately accept?
  3. Paul wasn't an historian. His focus was to preach the gospel, that is Christ and Him crucified.

    It is very disturbing that there is this conflict in God's church. That so many, perhaps even the majority, believe that we can enter heaven without obedience is perplexing to me. Paul was never in disagreement with Jesus regards the necessity to be obedient. He simply couched it in different terms.

    Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law....12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Romans 3:31; 7:12.

    Paul also said, "Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid! How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?.... What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
    (Romans 6:1,2,15-23.)

    Clearly, obedience to God's commandments was as important to Paul as any of the other contributors to the New Testament canon.
  4. #4 John Zain, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012

    Paul's ministry was quite different than Jesus's, the main differences being:

    Jesus was called to go to the Jews, while Paul was called to go to the Gentiles.

    And a very major part of Paul's ministry was to start and train churches.
    Paul WROTE to a totally different audience ... he wrote to the saved!
    Jesus TALKED to spiritual idiots (the unsaved).

    Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit available to help non-believers?
    When Jesus left, the Spirit came to take His place,
    so then both Paul and the Spirit took part in the evangelizing.
  5. #5 MorningStar, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
    Yes, I think it is a shame the conflict of the faith vs works has been such a point of contention. I remember hearing as a small child arguments about faith vs work in my earliest church.

    True, even Jesus said he did not wish to destroy the old law. Although, there are verses where both Paul and Jesus both seem to depart from the law in certain cases, then support it in others. I think this is largely part of the faith vs. works dilemma.

    Well yes, I wouldn't think you couldn't preach for God without claiming the importance of obedience to God. This is certainly the largest part of agreement between Paul and Jesus according to the bible.
  6. #6 B-A-C, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
    Where do you draw the line on how good we have to be? 80% good? 70%? 51% ?

    Do we ever truly conquer sin and the flesh while we are alive on the Earth?
    If we can be "good enough" to go to Heaven on our own, why do we need a savior?
    Doesn't this put our salvation back into our own hands, and now we make ourselves into God?
    Nullifying what Jesus did on the cross, because we can earn our salvation on our own?

    Should we try to sin? Of course not. But does our salvation depend upon our obedience? We are all in trouble if this is the case.

    While it's true Jesus didn't "do away with" the Law, (but came to fulfill the Law) (What the Law could not do, Jesus did (more correctly, did for us)).
    That doesn't mean the law is gone, it means the penalty for failing to meet the requirements of the law was paid.

    Faith without works is dead, this is true, but our salvation does not depend upon these works. orls are fruit of our salvation rather than the cause of our salvation.

    Paulism.. a term frequently used by cults and non-fundamentalists. As if Pul disagreed with Jesus, the Gospels, and the rest of the Bible. I have never found this to be the case. Paul wasn't simply just someone who showed and started writing letters. Paul is mentioned by other apostles and the author of other books as well. This gives him credibility. Also if we have a God big enough to control the courses of planets, galxies, oceans and all of creation, I think he is certainly big enough to control what goes into his Word (the Bible). While there are many versions of the Bible, most agree with each other. The ones that don't or have been re-written to support a particular agenda (the homosexual Bible for example) are easy to spot and aren't accepted by any large credible body of Christianity.
  7. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-30538"></sup>
    These verses seem to acknowledge Paul's anointing and authority.

    I agree with brakelite and John,Paul's ministry was radically different for several reasons.As far as I know he was the only one who was a learned Pharisee.
    Paul did meet Jesus on the road to Damascus.He met the real Jesus not the time bound man that the apostles knew.

    I must admit I wonder if all the writings that that we accept as Paul's are from the same person.He started out with an emphasis on freedom through grace,and miracles followed him confirming his word.I believe that is why the gentiles accepted it so readily.Toward the end of his ministry the miracles seemed to have stopped or slowed,the persecutions increased and he started laying down new rules because grace was being abused in the established churches.It does seem sometimes he may have abandoned faith for works a few times in desperation.We may not see the weak side of the other apostles as much simply because they wrote less.
    Lastly,I feel I would be a less effective believer without Paul's writings to glean from.
  8. I was wondering what could possibly be the debate to declare Jesus and Paul as teachers of different doctrines, especially that of salvation. So far I am glad to read what I have in this thread. I spent a long time confused over the whole issue of salvation myself, as I was in a church that taught me that my works meant nothing, but my bible was saying something different to me. I actually had a breakdown over the whole issue and nearly lost my faith completely. The end result was that God took me and began to teach me the truth.

    I found that I had no problems reading and understanding salvation if I just allow scripture to be the one to interpret itself and tell me what it means. I had to get away from the whole idea that a single verse is supposed to contain enough information to build complete doctrines on.

    Paul and Jesus are locked tight on their doctrines. All of them. Both require repentance toward God and faith in Christ to be saved. Jesus spoke of repentance toward God to the Jews as obeying Gods law as his people but he also taught them about what it meant to take up your own cross and die to yourself in order to walk in the righteousness of God. Paul spoke to the Jews about keeping Gods law but what we read is minimal because he mainly wrote to the gentiles, who were not and are not under Gods law. Paul would spend his time training them up in righteousness of the cross explaining how much more glorious it is than the law ever was.

    There are a few sects that error by thinking that when Paul spoke of the offense of the cross, that he was teaching that you cannot be good enough and that you solely had to rely on Jesus sacrifice to have life. The offense of the cross is actually the opposite. It says, to the Jews, that just keeping the law isn't enough. Your righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, like Paul was, or you will in no wise enter into the kingdom of God. You must pick up your cross, deny yourself or you cannot be Jesus disciple and partake in the sacrificial atonement of his blood.

    Paul and Jesus taught the same thing. You must stop your works and start doing Gods works or your not going to make it. Obeying the truth is to purge yourself from all evil through the Holy Spirit of God. To become one spirit with Christ. God is Just and the Justifier of him that believes in Jesus because the one who believes that Jesus Christ is the righteousness of God manifest in the flesh, purifies himself even as he is pure and walks as he walked. Your only real friends are those who truly believe and follow Jesus, which is a very small minority of people considering it has been 2000 years and man has corrupted himself again just like before the flood and just like when Christ came and just like what will happen 1000 years after Christ has been here reigning on the earth as King of kings and Lord of Lords.

    People do not want to hear that they have to give up their sin and selfishness in order to gain entrance into the kingdom. With the heart a man believes unto righteousness. This is how I have become who I am versus who I was when Jesus called me. I believed that drunkards, adulterers, fornicators, liars, etc will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. I begged and cried out to God to deliver me from such things. He did. I read that those who practice heresy, emulations, envying, debates, strife, murder and deceit would not enter into the kingdom. I cried out more and louder this time begging that I be not deceived. I read that even Jesus needed to be saved from death and cried out with strong crying and tears to the one who was able to save him from death and I cried out even louder.

    Why do you think God is about to call it quits with the gentiles? Do you think he is satisfied with what is going on down here?

    There is nothing that Paul taught that contradicts what Jesus taught. Show me every example you have and I am sure that the scripture will explain itself. That said, there are not too many people even here that will agree with what I have posted above and that is upon them. I stand behind the truth that I have been taught by the spirit that resides within my body which is his temple. The one who continues to drive me toward being found blameless and spotless before the Lord when he returns to judge the world. My hope and aim is for the first resurrection because if you miss that one their is only a 50 50 chance your going to ultimately be chosen to stay with him forever.

    My sincere hope and prayer for all is that they will repent of all sin, turn toward God following after the righteousness that is in Christ by putting on the Lord Jesus as we have been told to, so that, God will give them more revelation of his truth and the mysteries of the Kingdom to come. But the reality is that we are coming up on a time of huge apostasy and the entrance of a wicked Antichrist as God gives this world the God that they have always wanted just like Saul was for Israel. Thank God he then removes him and brings in the righteous one, Jesus, the son of David to rule forever instead.

    May the peace of God be with you all. In Jesus Name,

  9. Why do you see these as important events? They are just details. Of course Jesus teachings matter but not the events and not the details like that He was betrayed , born of virgin, gethsane, pontius pilate, etc.

    why would those details matter?

    Are we going to heaven by trivia?

    No contradiction. The concept of james 2 is often misunderstood by reader but does in no way contradict faith alone.

    Jesus didnt say you will be justified He said you will "enter life".
    Because God's word gives us life. but law gives us death.
    So if taken in right sense what Jesus said was to give life and not serve as law. Though Jews knew it was law and took it as such. But for christians theres no law, why? because of forgiveness that jews knew not much about.

    But Jesus death on the cross is beginning of faith and grace alone doctrine that Apostle Paul teached.
  10. God bless you all. May your New Year be filled with Blessing and gratitude.
  11. #11 faithfulservant, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
    I'm not available for a scriptural showdown. I will say only this: You are not that familiar with Paul's letters if you don't see the correlation with Jesus' teachings. It's all right there, phrased in a different manner. These things, however, are spiritually discerned available only to those whom have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, adopted heirs to glory, children of God. Thank You, Father. Thank You, Jesus.
  12. Just want to point out a little but important detail:

    The Lord didn't only come for the Jews.

    The Lord came because He obeyed His Father.
    Obedience unto death to save all mankind.
    He is a Jew to fulfill the prophecies about his lineage.
    But begotten by God is He, savior of all men.

    John 10:14-16 records the Lord referring to Himself as the good shepherd who has sheep both in this and another pen. That would be Jews and non-Jews.
  13. Hello all.

    The Apostle(?) Paul perhaps the most mailgned Christian God ever breathed life into.

    Paul was maligned and disrespected during his life on Earth and in his letters. This is still occurring today, over two thousand years
    of controversy.

    The assaults on Paul never cease, all the way through history.

    Why would Paul be the epicenter of such an onslaught.

    Let's briefly assess this self proclaimed apostle to see the reasons.

    i) Paul did not walk with Jesus as the true disciples did.
    ii) Did Paul respond to the Gospel preached by Peter, James or John?
    iii) Paul was not baptized by anyone of note?
    iv) Was Paul part of the early Church?
    v) Seriously, was Paul even around when Jesus rose from the dead?
    vi) Paul was a Pharisee, yes that's right a Pharisee. They crucified Jesus!
    vii) Paul helped in the execution of the first Christian martyr, Stephen?
    viii) Paul terrified the Christians in Jerusalem?
    ix) Christian blood has stained this false apostles hands?
    x) Does Paul repeat what Jesus said, no he never heard Jesus speak in person?
    xi) Further, Paul's theology is different to the other apostles?
    xii) There can be no doubt that even if Paul has changed then he most
    certainly cannot be an Apostle. Of that I am most certain. I am not
    even sure that God would save this Christian murderer.

    I think it is obvious the jury could hand this deluded murderer over
    to the executioner. All in favor of the guilty verdict?

    Sorry, I have to stop this execution, let's see why?

    Now the awesome, brilliant and at times most spiritually informative
    defense that any person in the dock could ever deliver.

    2 Corinthians 11:22-33 (NKJV)

    22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.

    23 Are they ministers of Christ?—I speak as a fool—I am more: in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequently, in deaths often.

    24 From the Jews five times I received forty stripes minus one.

    25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;

    26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

    27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness—

    28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.

    29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is made to stumble, and I do not burn with indignation?

    30 If I must boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity.

    31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying

    Paul's defense continues,

    2 Corinthians 12:11-13 (NKJV)

    11 I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind the most eminent apostles, though I am nothing.

    12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

    13 For what is it in which you were inferior to other churches, except that I myself was not burdensome to you? Forgive me this wrong!

    Paul was defending himself to the Corinthian Church he started.
    There is no doubt that this empty vessel Paul, crushed by Jesus on the road to Damascus. Becomes the messenger not just to Corinth but more importantly to the Church Universal. You and I understand the real Jesus, real forgiveness, real reconciliation through Paul's letters.

    Please do not be decieved, it is not Pauline theology in question. It is the inspired Word of Jesus Christ that is being attacked.

    Luke who wrote the Gospel had no reservations about following Paul. Luke later defends Paul in Acts and rightly so, he is an easy target for the ignorant.

    Peter defers to Paul's wisdom regarding the things of God.

    There is also the possibility that the author of the Gospel of Mark
    is also serving with Paul.

    Our Bible is a complete book of the revelation of Jesus Christ and
    the reconciliation of mankind to its creator. Tear Paul's epistles out
    and you delete God's crowning revelation. This is the work of God
    not the work of men. It has been constructed by God for you.
    Tamper with it at your own peril.
  14. 2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God,

    Its just that simple.

    1 Corinthians Chapter 1:10-18

    <TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>10</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>11</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>12</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>13</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>14</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>15</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>16</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>17</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>18</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

    Period , thats it.
  15. Would I amiss if in place of "are spiritually discerned" the word "illumination" by which the Holy Spirit works through believers were used?
    John 16:12, 15

    If not that's okay. I just mention it because I came across a definition that showed illumination as being the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which he has his “spiritual understanding” opened to understand the Scriptures. It was something I just had to share!

    I thought that so awesome, because when that happens when I'm reading scripture its like I can't sit still and have to run around the house giving Glory to God. :embarasse
  16. The point is, there are correlations as well as contradictions. Its right there in scripture. It brings up an interesting contrast to those who study these things intently. Its not meant to cause conflict, its meant for study and hopefully understand deeper meanings within scripture.
  17. #17 jari, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
    you have failed to understand the Bible and thus claim it has contradictions.

    I have read it and know it has no contradictions.

    So please leave it...

    it's highly counterproductive for christian forums for some one to claim Bible has contradictions to those who hold view that it doesnt.
    Simply your opinion is not wanted, your only showing your ignorance.

    so take care and hope you post your views in future with more respect in regards to our belief in the bible.
  18. #18 Donnie Ducati, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
    <TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>:shock:</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>

    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Proverbs 6:19
    A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

    Proverbs Chapter 6
  19. Easy to claim contradictions without examples.
  20. Oh, amen! It's all wonderful revelations. THANK YOU, LORD!

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