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The bridegroom

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Loyal
Matt 9:14; Then the disciples of John *came to Him, asking, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
Matt 9:15; And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Who is the bridegroom here? Why does He call Himself that?

Luke 5:33; And they said to Him, "The disciples of John often fast and offer prayers, the disciples of the Pharisees also do the same, but Yours eat and drink."
Luke 5:34; And Jesus said to them, "You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?
Luke 5:35; "But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days."


Mark 2:18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and they *came and *said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
Mark 2:19 And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
Mark 2:20 "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.


On the surface these verses are about fasting, yet still all three passages mention the bridegroom.

John the Baptist is talking about someone greater than him. He says he must decrease so this other person can increase.

John 3:28 "You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, 'I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent ahead of Him.'
John 3:29 "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
John 3:31 "He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

John says He who has the "bride" is the bridegroom. John says he is only a "friend" of the bridegroom.

There is also the parable of the 10 virgins.

Matt 25:1; "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Matt 25:5; "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
Matt 25:6; "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'


Again, on the surface it's about 5 foolish virgins that ran out of oil. But why did they need oil in the first place? To meet the bridegroom of course.

Isa 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you.

Isaiah says God will rejoice over us as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride.

In Revelation there are some references to the bride.

Rev 19:7; "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9; Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

Is the bride the city (the New Jerusalem) or is the bride the saints that inhabit the city?

Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

Paul compares the church to a bride, and Christ to a husband.

Rom 7:2; For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.

This verse isn't really about "marriage" per se, but rather about being released from the law, yet it's interesting that marriage is used as the metaphor here.

... there is more to say about this, but I'm out of time this morning.
 
Loyal
Matt 9:14; Then the disciples of John *came to Him, asking, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
Matt 9:15; And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Who is the bridegroom here? Why does He call Himself that?

Luke 5:33; And they said to Him, "The disciples of John often fast and offer prayers, the disciples of the Pharisees also do the same, but Yours eat and drink."
Luke 5:34; And Jesus said to them, "You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?
Luke 5:35; "But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days."


Mark 2:18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and they *came and *said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
Mark 2:19 And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
Mark 2:20 "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.


On the surface these verses are about fasting, yet still all three passages mention the bridegroom.

John the Baptist is talking about someone greater than him. He says he must decrease so this other person can increase.

John 3:28 "You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, 'I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent ahead of Him.'
John 3:29 "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
John 3:31 "He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

John says He who has the "bride" is the bridegroom. John says he is only a "friend" of the bridegroom.

There is also the parable of the 10 virgins.

Matt 25:1; "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Matt 25:5; "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
Matt 25:6; "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'


Again, on the surface it's about 5 foolish virgins that ran out of oil. But why did they need oil in the first place? To meet the bridegroom of course.

Isa 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you.

Isaiah says God will rejoice over us as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride.

In Revelation there are some references to the bride.

Rev 19:7; "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9; Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

Is the bride the city (the New Jerusalem) or is the bride the saints that inhabit the city?

Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

Paul compares the church to a bride, and Christ to a husband.

Rom 7:2; For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.

This verse isn't really about "marriage" per se, but rather about being released from the law, yet it's interesting that marriage is used as the metaphor here.

... there is more to say about this, but I'm out of time this morning.
I've been looking at the bride in depth the last week or so. Usually its quite unwise to preach on something we are only just learning but I'm not preaching. LOL I've learned that the biblical Hebrew wedding is a type, a picture of our relationship with our Jesus and that the wedding of the Lamb is echoed by that Hebrew wedding. Look:
T here are many customs appointed by God as teaching tools. In a unique way, the Jewish Wedding Ceremony (as opposed to any other cultural expression) is a detailed illustration of the Messiah's relationship to His bride.

The Shiddukhin - Arrangements preliminary to Betrothal
What is Shiddukhin?


Shiddukhin refers to the first step in the marriage process - the arraignments preliminary to the legal betrothal. It was common in ancient Israel of the father of the groom to select a bride for his son.


Biblical Example of Shiddukhin - Genesis 24:1-4

Notice in this passage Abraham - makes arrangements for his son Isaac's wedding. While the father usually had the responsibility in Abraham's life it was not possible. It was acceptable for the father to delegate this responsibility by designating a representative - called a shadkhan - marriage broker or matchmaker.


The next phase of this step was the - Ketubah


Ketubah means - "written" Written in Hebrew as - hbtk. The ketubah was and still is today the - "marriage contract." The ketubah includes the provisions and conditions of the proposed marriage:

  • The groom promises to support his wife to be.
  • The bride stipulates the contents of her dowry - financial status.
We see this described in - Gen. 24:52-53. Despite the fact that this was an "arraigned marriage", it appears that the consent of the bride was very much a part of the ketubah - (Gen. 24:5).



The Mohar - or Bridal Payment


This is sometimes called - the Bride price. It is a gift paid by the groom to the bride's family - but ultimately belongs to the bride. It changed her status and set her free from her parent's household. We see this illustrated in two Biblical examples:



The Mikveh - or Ritual Immersion


Although not mentioned in the narrative - to prepare for betrothal it was common for the bride and groom to separately take a ritual immersion. The ritual immersion - mikveh -taken from the Hebrew - hwqm was prior to actually entering into the formal betrothal period, and was symbolic of spiritual cleansing.


Illustrated in Messiah's Bride


The shiddukhin starts with the father's selection of a bride for his beloved son. So too - were we selected by the Father to be His Beloved Son's loving precious bride - (Eph. 1:4). As in the case of Isaac - there is also a matchmaker - (II Cor. 11:10-12). We also have a legal contract - a ketubah hbtk - which is the New Covenant itself in which:


  • The groom promises love an care for His bride - and to give Himself for her . He also has paid the proper price for His bride - (His own life).
  • The bride promises to pay her dowry - her financial status - that of her yielded life and to keep herself for Him - (I Cor. 6:20).

The Mohar - is also illustrated in our relationship to Yeshua - we are told in (I Cor. 6: 19-20) that we have been redeemed with a price. We are also told that our bride's price is not just silver and gold but His own life (I Pet. 1:18-19)


Both bride and groom have undergone the waters of mikveh or immersion - Yeshua at the beginning of His ministry ( Mat. 3: 13-17) and we His bride in the cleansing waters( Eph.5:26-27, I Cor. 6:11).

The Eyrusin - or Betrothal
What is Eyrusin?


The word eyrusin means - Betrothal. The period is also called - kiddushim - meaning "sanctification" or "set apart." This word really defines the purpose of the betrothal period - it is a time in which the couple are to set side to prepare themselves to enter into the covenant of marriage. The Jewish understanding of betrothal has always been much stronger than our modern understanding of an engagement. The betrothal was so binding that the couple would need a religious divorce or (get) in order to annul the contract (Deut. 24:1-4). This option was only available to the husband, as the wife had no say in any divorce proceeding - this point will be very important when we view the spiritual implications later.


Aspects of the Betrothal


After the couple had undergone - Mikveh hwqm (immersion) , each separately, they would appear together under the Huppah - or canopy - and in public they would express their intention of becoming betrothed or engaged. From ancient times - the wedding canopy has been a symbol of a new household being planned - (Ps. 19:5; Joel 2:16). While under the Huppah the couple participated in a ceremony in which some items of value were exchanged - such as rings, and a cup of wine was shared to seal the betrothal vows. After the ceremony - the couple was considered to have entered into the betrothal agreement. This period was to last for one year. During this time the couple was considered married - yet did not have sexual relations - and continued to live separately until the end of the betrothal. We see this time of betrothal illustrated in the gospels as reflected in the lives of Yoseph and Miriam - (see Mat. 1:18-25).


The Matan - or Bridal Gift


Following this betrothal ceremony the groom would return to his home to fulfill his obligations during the betrothal. But just prior to leaving he would give his wife to be a Matan ntm - or bridal gift, a pledge of his love for her. It's purpose was to be a reminder to his bride during their days of separation of his love for her, that he was thinking of her - and that he would return to receive her as his wife.


The Couple's Responsibilities During the Betrothal


During betrothal the groom's responsibility was to focus on preparing a new dwelling place for his bride and family:

  • In Biblical times this was most often done not by building a new home - but by simply adding additional rooms to the family's existing home.
  • The Rabbi's determined that the place to which the bride was to be taken must be better than the place she had lived before.
  • It was not the groom's duty to determine when the place he was preparing for the bride was ready - his father would make that determination and give the go ahead to receive his bride.
The bride also was to keep herself busy in preparation for the wedding day - specifically wedding garments were to be sewn and prepared.



Illustrated in Messiah's Betrothal to His Bride


As the betrothal includes the blessings of the wine under the huppah, one of the last of Yeshua's actions was to bless the cup of the New Covenant - the cup of the ketubah hbtk - that contract of marriage. He too stated that He would not tasted again until a later time, when he would drink at the wedding feast. The image of our betrothal also answers the question of whether believers can loose their salvation. The Scripture points to the fact that we are betrothed to the Messiah - we are in that engagement period prior to the wedding:

  • As in any betrothal - the promise is so sure of our wedding that it would take a religious (get) divorce to nullify the contract.
  • This divorce (get) is only available to the husband.
  • This too is promised by God in Hosea 2:19-20 - He promises that He will betrothal His people to Himself - forever. Would God ever divorce His people - (Malachi 2:16) - certainly it is not in His character to divorce.
  • The lesson or implications are quite clear - we are secure in our Messiah's contract with us - we cannot break it - and He promises that He will not break it - (Jn. 10:28).
How is Messiah fulfilling His betrothal obligations? What was the duty of the bridegroom during the period of the betrothal? To prepare a household for his bride to be. Is this not what He (Yeshua) said He would be doing ?(Jn. 14:1-3). He is fulfilling His part of the betrothal.



Where is the Matan ntm - or bridal gift of love from Messiah - if indeed we are His betrothed. Remember the word Matan ntm means gift or pledge - in Greek the word is Charismata - gift. In (Eph 1:13-14) Paul tells us that this pledge or gift - is the Holy Spirit - a promise of love and that He will return for us. Interestingly this pledge was given at Shavuot (Pentecost) - Acts2:1-4. Could He also be telling us not only of His love but just how He is fulfilling (Jer 31:33)?


But what of His bride - what is she to be doing? During this one year period - the bride would consecrate herself - and prepare holy garments for the upcoming marriage. Paul puts this preparation in very clear terms - (Eph 5:25-27). The bridegroom is making preparations to return for His bride - we need to ask ourselves are we as His betrothed keeping our garments clean? Are we arrayed in our bridal attire, and keeping our ketubah hbtk - covenant promises and vows?

The Nissuin - Marriage Itself
The culminating step in the Process of the Jewish Wedding


The final step in the wedding proces is called - Nissuin - the word commons from the Hebrew verb - hsn ( nasa) - which means , "to carry." This is a graphic description - as the bride would be waiting for her groom to come - to carry her off to her new home. The period of the betrothal - was a time of great anticipation - as the bride waited for the arrival of her betrothed. One of the unique features of the Biblical Jewish wedding was the time of the groom's arrival - it was to be a surprise:

  • The bride took the betrothal seriously - expecting the at the end of the year long period of the betrothal.
  • She knew the approximate timing - but the exact hour or day was uncertain.
  • It was the father of the groom who would give the final approval for the marriage to begin.




The coming of the Bridegroom and the Wedding Begins


Since the time of his arrival was a surprise - the bride and her bridal party were always to be ready - this is the background of Yeshua's parable (Mat. 25:1-13). It was customary for one of the grooms party to go ahead of the bridegroom, leading the way to the bride's house - and shout - "Behold, the bridegroom comes." This would be followed by the sounding of the shofar. At the sounding of the shofar the entire wedding processional would go through the streets of the city to the bride's house. The groomsmen would again set up the huppah:

  • Again the couple would say a blessing over the cup of wine.
  • The ceremony finalized the promises and vows.
The pinnacle of this joyful celebration was the marriage supper:
  • It was much more than just a sit down dinner for all the guests.
  • It included seven full days of food, music, dance and celebration - (Jn. 14:10-12).
  • After the festivities the husband was free to bring his bride to their new home to live together as husband and wife in the full covenant of marriage.




Messiah's Wedding - Still to Come


Yeshua - told His disciples - that He did not know the day or hour of His return (Mat. 24:32-36) - this is not so much to say He does not have all knowledge - but as with any Jewish bridegroom - He must wait for His Father to give the word that the set time has come.

As we noted before - in a traditional Jewish wedding - one of the groom's men would go before the arrival of the groom and shout - Behold the groom comes - should we expect anything less with the coming of our heavenly bridegroom? But where do we see such an event? - if we look to ( I Thess 4:16-18) we see that just prior to our Lord's we return - there will indeed be a shout - from one of the ruling angels - what might this angel shout, could it be - "Behold the groom comes?"



We also saw that after this joyful proclamation of the groom's men there was in a traditional Jewish wedding the joyful sounding of the shofar. Will this happen when our Lord returns to receive His bride? If we continue reading the description of our Lord's future wedding in (I Thess 4:16-18) we see there also - the sounding of the shofar in annunciation of His return.


At the sounding of the shofar the entire wedding processional would go through the streets of the city to the bride's house - but where is this wedding processional at Yeshua's coming wedding - again it is clearly pictured for us in (I Thess 4:16-18) - where all of Yeshua's wedding party is gathered together for the great wedding feast.


The pinnacle of the Jewish wedding was the joyful celebration of the marriage supper - this too is a facet of our Lord's soon coming wedding (Rev 19:7-9).


One last question needs to be raised - who is the bride of Yeshua?

  • From the passage in Hosea (2:19-20) it is clear that Israel is the Bride of God.
  • Yet the Newer Covenant Scriptures tell us that the "church" is the bride of Messiah.
  • Does God have two brides? Is He a polygamist? No!
  • Or, is it possible as some have suggested, God divorced one bride - Israel, to marry another - the church? That cannot be - for God has told us He hates divorce (Mal 2:16) and Jeremiah affirms God's everlasting covenant with the physical people Israel (Jer 31:35-37). This too is affirmed by Paul in (Rom 9-11).
  • The best solution then is - to affirm the fact that God has always had one bride - His chosen people Israel. This has been enlarged to include those grafted into Israel (Rom 11:17) , the Gentile believers.
Jewish Wedding Customs and the Bride of Messiah



What do you think?
 
Loyal
The first part of Matt 2 says the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a wedding. I wonder who is getting married?

Luke 12:36 is similar.

Rev 19:7; "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Rev 19:9; Then he *said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he *said to me, "These are true words of God."

What is different about those "invited to the marriage supper", and "His bride". What makes a person a bride or an invitee?
 
Loyal
The first part of Matt 2 says the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a wedding. I wonder who is getting married?

Luke 12:36 is similar.

Rev 19:7; "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Rev 19:9; Then he *said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he *said to me, "These are true words of God."

What is different about those "invited to the marriage supper", and "His bride". What makes a person a bride or an invitee?
We're all invitees, but the bride is the one who made herself ready for the groom. We cannot sit on our thumbs and wait for God to make us ready. The Word says for US to make ourselves ready.
 
Active
The first part of Matt 2 says the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a wedding. I wonder who is getting married?

Luke 12:36 is similar.

Rev 19:7; "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Rev 19:9; Then he *said to me, "Write, 'Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.'" And he *said to me, "These are true words of God."

What is different about those "invited to the marriage supper", and "His bride". What makes a person a bride or an invitee?
The wedding and the marriage supper are not the same event. The bride is not the same as those invited to the marriage supper. Jesus Christ is the bridegroom. The Church is the bride. John the Baptist is the best man, the friend of the groom. Paul gives away the bride to the groom. (2Cor. 11:2) A complete wedding followed by a marriage supper.

Quantrill
 
Loyal
The wedding and the marriage supper are not the same event. The bride is not the same as those invited to the marriage supper. Jesus Christ is the bridegroom. The Church is the bride. John the Baptist is the best man, the friend of the groom. Paul gives away the bride to the groom. (2Cor. 11:2) A complete wedding followed by a marriage supper.

Quantrill
I agree that the wedding and the wedding supper are not the same. I agree that a part of the church is the bride, and the rest are the guests but I find the rest interesting Mr.Quantrill...Where did you come up with John the Baptist is the best man? And Paul gives away the bride?
 
Active
I agree that the wedding and the wedding supper are not the same. I agree that a part of the church is the bride, and the rest are the guests but I find the rest interesting Mr.Quantrill...Where did you come up with John the Baptist is the best man? And Paul gives away the bride?
We do not agree. All of the Church is the Bride.

Is not John the baptist called the friend of the Groom who stands for Him? (John 3:29) DId not Paul said he gave away the bride? (2Cor. 11:2)

Quantrill
 
Active
Matt 9:14; Then the disciples of John *came to Him, asking, "Why do we and the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
Matt 9:15; And Jesus said to them, "The attendants of the bridegroom cannot mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, can they? But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast.

Who is the bridegroom here? Why does He call Himself that?

Luke 5:33; And they said to Him, "The disciples of John often fast and offer prayers, the disciples of the Pharisees also do the same, but Yours eat and drink."
Luke 5:34; And Jesus said to them, "You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?
Luke 5:35; "But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days."


Mark 2:18 John's disciples and the Pharisees were fasting; and they *came and *said to Him, "Why do John's disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but Your disciples do not fast?"
Mark 2:19 And Jesus said to them, "While the bridegroom is with them, the attendants of the bridegroom cannot fast, can they? So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
Mark 2:20 "But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.


On the surface these verses are about fasting, yet still all three passages mention the bridegroom.

John the Baptist is talking about someone greater than him. He says he must decrease so this other person can increase.

John 3:28 "You yourselves are my witnesses that I said, 'I am not the Christ,' but, 'I have been sent ahead of Him.'
John 3:29 "He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom's voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease.
John 3:31 "He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.

John says He who has the "bride" is the bridegroom. John says he is only a "friend" of the bridegroom.

There is also the parable of the 10 virgins.

Matt 25:1; "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
Matt 25:5; "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
Matt 25:6; "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'


Again, on the surface it's about 5 foolish virgins that ran out of oil. But why did they need oil in the first place? To meet the bridegroom of course.

Isa 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you.

Isaiah says God will rejoice over us as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride.

In Revelation there are some references to the bride.

Rev 19:7; "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9; Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

Is the bride the city (the New Jerusalem) or is the bride the saints that inhabit the city?

Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.

Paul compares the church to a bride, and Christ to a husband.

Rom 7:2; For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.

This verse isn't really about "marriage" per se, but rather about being released from the law, yet it's interesting that marriage is used as the metaphor here.

... there is more to say about this, but I'm out of time this morning.
Some ancillary principles and thoughts to consider.
Notice also that among Jews in scripture, a woman is married to a male husband. Before that there is their lives of friendships, celebrations, leading up to consummation. Friends are invited into the feast. But the friends are never married to to the bride or bridegroom. The bride becomes absent from her family, and the bridegroom leaves his friends to be with her. Then the friends can miss them both. Friends can marry friends, and friends can resume a friendship relationship with a married couple. Notice also there is never a sanction in scripture of the slightest hint of a man being in any marriage relationship with a man. That is anathema to God, worthy of death. I've known men who changed churches upon hearing a preacher teach we will be married to Jesus. It's just not a logical idea for many.

Jesus' parables were often carried over into other synoptic gospels, not that any one is elevated by repetition. Each author reported the ones that were most pertinent to their own perspective, some in one book left entirely out of another. That ought not diminish the importance of a seemingly minor lesson not repeated.

The apostles asked Jesus why He taught in parables, which He explained well. People like similies (like, as), metaphors ("is" but isn't really, like Jesus is the Morning Star, but that is the planet Venus), images rather than lots of words hard to comprehend all at once.

It's unfortunate that parables are sometimes taken to damaging extremes. Shadows are venerated as the sum of the cause of the shadow, in other words shadows believed to make their own image. Some signs like the serpent on the pole were kept around for false worship.
Numbers 21:9 (KJV)
9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Hezekiah had to destroy it later.
2 Kings 18:4 (KJV)
4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

Images of saints of God are being prayed to as though they are acceptable substitutes for getting prayers to God. Christians should only bow to God in prayer. Why go after extremes simply because of popularity?

In a trial of a burglar here the criminal confessed as a last resort his belief it was OK as long as he did that to support his family, believing a parable about an unjust steward being a guide for his lifestyle, abusing context enough to get the judge mad, with his pitiful attempt at
Luke 16:9 (KJV) 9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.
When we all laughed, that judge warned us too, for disobeying courtroom rules of silence.

I think this is appropriate in all simplicity:
Matthew 22:29-33 (KJV)
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.

It doesn't say we'll be angels, but we'll like them once in Heaven with no need of a helper through life.

Also, Paul indicated in 1 Cor 7 that if the unmarried can contain themselves, be faithful to the gospel and to God holy, it's good not to marry. If we get to Heaven, why even consider marriage? There isn't enough consensus among the majority of apostles and early Church scholars to make the idea of the Church being a literal bride, and Jesus being a literal bridegroom. It's a lovely concept taught and preached out of what seems to be holy conversation, and is an idea dear to hearts. It isn't necessary to use that parable to deliver the gospel of grace and holiness, though our relationship to the Lord ought to be no less pure than an ideal marriage on earth.
 
Active
We do not agree. All of the Church is the Bride.

Is not John the baptist called the friend of the Groom who stands for Him? (John 3:29) DId not Paul said he gave away the bride? (2Cor. 11:2)

Quantrill
Was John the Baptist then 'merely' of the friends of the groom or bride? Where even in Jewish tradition do the friends of bride or groom join the newly wed couple in marriage? No, they initially mourn the change in friendship status, many potential brides knowing they must find another groom, and grooms' friends cut off from the bride to find another?
Yet, the typical Jewish marriage is based on that peculiar relationship of the groom being the head of the marriage over his wife, but submitted to God for that relationship to be holy before God.

"The Bride" is fully named that when the angel or heavenly man of God shows John the holy city, a physical place with definite measurements.

Here's where some go wrong. John the Baptist was the last prophet to introduce the long awaited Messiah, being accounted the greatest of prophets by seeing that prophecy fulfilled.
John 3:28-30 (KJV)
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John had to decrease, not increase to status equal to the groom, or even to the bride of the grrom. The "best man" friend of the Jewish groom was an announcer for the groom, not at all a co-groomsman, else that be polygamy, prohibited in the Epistles for any holy man even approaching a shepherds' position. The groom only shall have the bride. The friends understand that. When the groom heads out for the place to join his bride, he is escorted by friends in the night. They have had their "bachelor's party". His voice rings out, and the best man waiting, the virgin bridesmaids also outside waiting, hears his voice, not needing visual confirmation. The man standing at the door where the bride awaits rejoices. Us Christians will hear that trump and holy shout before seeing Jesus coming. Once the "best man" friend knows it is the groom, he and the others step aside with joy. Not one friend is a further part of the union of bride and groom. The friends of bride and groom meet again on common grounds in the future where Jesus and the holy city New Jerusalem call out the invitation to friends to come and enjoy their marriage. In preceding Revelation scripture Jesus and the holy city voices are no longer even heard by the wicked. They have no call to join the celebration.

You are either a friend of that marriage or an adulterer.
 
Active
I agree that the wedding and the wedding supper are not the same. I agree that a part of the church is the bride, and the rest are the guests but I find the rest interesting Mr.Quantrill...Where did you come up with John the Baptist is the best man? And Paul gives away the bride?
Here's my take on that.
2 Corinthians 11:1-4 (KJV)
1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Paul was of course not the genetic father of the Corinthian church, but the humanly 'founder' of it. Taking the theoretical (though possibly prerceived falacious) position of literal father of a bride, he wanted them to know he was very "jealous" like most humanly fathers should be, familialy possessive of that congregation, to fear they might unite with with a bad head of household (Satan). That in no way teaches Paul gave folks away as a literal human daddy to be handing over a literal bride to marry Jesus.
 
Active
I agree that the wedding and the wedding supper are not the same. I agree that a part of the church is the bride, and the rest are the guests but I find the rest interesting Mr.Quantrill...Where did you come up with John the Baptist is the best man? And Paul gives away the bride?
Allow me to claim I have already been seated at the wedding supper, my seat among the reserved for all the friends of Jesus Christ. There are no seats marked "Guest" there. I just haven't yet arrived at the eternal community in Heaven yet. That supper has had a reserved seat for every Christian. Dive in and enjoy! I have a reserved residence in Heaven! So do you, Christian!
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Was John the Baptist then 'merely' of the friends of the groom or bride? Where even in Jewish tradition do the friends of bride or groom join the newly wed couple in marriage? No, they initially mourn the change in friendship status, many potential brides knowing they must find another groom, and grooms' friends cut off from the bride to find another?
Yet, the typical Jewish marriage is based on that peculiar relationship of the groom being the head of the marriage over his wife, but submitted to God for that relationship to be holy before God.

"The Bride" is fully named that when the angel or heavenly man of God shows John the holy city, a physical place with definite measurements.

Here's where some go wrong. John the Baptist was the last prophet to introduce the long awaited Messiah, being accounted the greatest of prophets by seeing that prophecy fulfilled.
John 3:28-30 (KJV)
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

John had to decrease, not increase to status equal to the groom, or even to the bride of the grrom. The "best man" friend of the Jewish groom was an announcer for the groom, not at all a co-groomsman, else that be polygamy, prohibited in the Epistles for any holy man even approaching a shepherds' position. The groom only shall have the bride. The friends understand that. When the groom heads out for the place to join his bride, he is escorted by friends in the night. They have had their "bachelor's party". His voice rings out, and the best man waiting, the virgin bridesmaids also outside waiting, hears his voice, not needing visual confirmation. The man standing at the door where the bride awaits rejoices. Us Christians will hear that trump and holy shout before seeing Jesus coming. Once the "best man" friend knows it is the groom, he and the others step aside with joy. Not one friend is a further part of the union of bride and groom. The friends of bride and groom meet again on common grounds in the future where Jesus and the holy city New Jerusalem call out the invitation to friends to come and enjoy their marriage. In preceding Revelation scripture Jesus and the holy city voices are no longer even heard by the wicked. They have no call to join the celebration.

You are either a friend of that marriage or an adulterer.
Greetings,

may i put forth a suggestion?
Please don't rip me to sheds. I have not 'done my homework' on this.

Regarding the Friend as referred to in the above quoted post, could it be that His Friend or Best Man is the Holy Ghost?
I can't recall any mention of the Holy Ghost in the book of Revelation (which does not automatically mean there is none). Yes, the Spirit is definitely referred to but the Holy Ghost is not (I think?).

Another thought is that of Abram, who because he was a friend of God was named by God, Abraham.


Bless you ....><>
 
Active
Greetings,

may i put forth a suggestion?
Please don't rip me to sheds. I have not 'done my homework' on this.

Regarding the Friend as referred to in the above quoted post, could it be that His Friend or Best Man is the Holy Ghost?
I can't recall any mention of the Holy Ghost in the book of Revelation (which does not automatically mean there is none). Yes, the Spirit is definitely referred to but the Holy Ghost is not (I think?).

Another thought is that of Abram, who because he was a friend of God was named by God, Abraham.


Bless you ....><>
Bro Bear, my earnest intent was to fully support your presentation with additional argument promoting that. If I missed it that badly maybe I ought to take a sabbatical from here and reconsider my ways. I do regret any ill feelings you got from my post. I don't have power to retract it.
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Bro Bear, my earnest intent was to fully support your presentation with additional argument promoting that. If I missed it that badly maybe I ought to take a sabbatical from here and reconsider my ways. I do regret any ill feelings you got from my post. I don't have power to retract it.
No ... you don't need a sabbatical for what you said! You might need one for thinking like that, though!!

I can assure you that i was writing to everyone and simply putting a thought out there and asking meekly (?) that I don't get ripped to shreds if i said any seemingly blasphemous thing in my feeble suggestion. Please let me also assure you that there are zero ill feelings.

Bless you and thank you for faithfully doing your best to help others as best you can.
As one Member always says, give God all the Glory! @amadeus2


Bless you ....><>
 
Active
No ... you don't need a sabbatical for what you said! You might need one for thinking like that, though!!

I can assure you that i was writing to everyone and simply putting a thought out there and asking meekly (?) that I don't get ripped to shreds if i said any seemingly blasphemous thing in my feeble suggestion. Please let me also assure you that there are zero ill feelings.

Bless you and thank you for faithfully doing your best to help others as best you can.
As one Member always says, give God all the Glory! @amadeus2


Bless you ....><>
You are the last member here I could imagine anyone getting cross with, so took the low road until I could re-read to figure out what I must have misunderstood. Thanks for explaining. I sometimes piggy-back off a strong post(er) as in teaming up like two oxen yoked and like to add my comments to a post I like a lot. That's what I was doing to your post.

As for shredding people with words, I'd like to take the moment to say I don't hesitate to treat words with whatever strength necessary, but never have a person in mind. I have to go by literal appearance of words written, not good at keeping up with online chat personalities and histories of people I have not dealt with face to face, so can appear too impersonal.

Thank you for your good ministry here giving the glory to God.
 
Active
Here' my final comment on this, in agreement with post #1.

John 15:9-17 (KJV)
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.


13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.


15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.


Does anyone here know who would be the friends of a groom in Heaven? He taught using the Jewish marriage model as a model of the glory of His kingdom, not an event in the future where and when there will be none marrying one another.

Who would be the bridesmaids? What? No bridesmaids? Then why a bride? Why a groom? Why attempt to twist a beautiful marriage symbol into a doctrine not supported directly by scripture?

But according to the model Jesus used, there will be a marriage supper to which is attended by His friends. Would you suppose that when the supper is done, the doors would be closed on Jesus and a bride, all the friends sent back to resume their former lives? Of course not. That must be the end of a virtual experience of the marriage Jesus used as a model of beauty of His Kingdom. All the friends go home, not into the newlywed's chamber. "The Bride of Christ" idea can only be properly taken as a metaphor.

My wife of 52 years has kept her vows, as have I. I could never put her away in divorce. Our marriage stands for the friendship each of us has with Jesus. No apostle taught it would be the will of God to marry another who is holier. But she allows me other friends, and I her. We rejoice that we are both equal heirs of all Jesus inherits, while friends forever with God the Father, God the Son Jesus, and God the Holy Spirit. We shall all meet together at that supper table with all the friends of God, taking that precious communion, celebrating our being in one accord one with another from among all the tribes of earth, in that holy city New Jerusalem.
 

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