The Book of Life - revisted

[B-A-C]

When babies/infants die, do they go to heaven?
It seems most Christians believe they do.

A lot of us believe in something called "the age of accountability".
If you believe Isaiah 7:15; is a prophecy about Jesus, then even Jesus had a time in His life
before He knew right from wrong.

Can babies enter heaven without their names being in the Book of Life?
For that matter, can anyone enter heaven without their names being in the Book of Life. ( Rev 20:15; )
If all babies go to heaven.... is it possible their names get erased later in life?
(Obviously everyone doesn't make it to heaven).
Some believe only the children of Christians "are clean" ( 1 Cor 7:14; ) so therefore
they are the only bables/infants that go to heaven.

A controversial verse in Exod 32:32-33; says I blot those out of my Book who have sinned against me.
Was their name in the Book before they sinned against God?

Deut 29:18-20; God says he will blot out the names of those who turn away from Him and worship other Gods.

In Psalms 69:28; David says "May they be blotted out of the Book of Life"....
This verse is controversial because David is talking about his enemies.
but yet, some relate this to a prophecy about Roman soldiers trying to give Jesus vinegar on the cross.

Rev 3:5; says ..."He who overcomes.... I will not erase his name from the Book of Life" ...
What about those who do not overcome?

Now it seems there may be two kinds of people....
Those who's names were in the book... and later blotted out.
...and those... who were never in the Book of Life "from the foundation of the world". ( Rev 17:8; )

Also see Php 4:3; Rev 13:8; Rev 20:12-15; Rev 21:27;

 

[amadeus2]

When Adam and Eve sinned, they died. Every person born to woman after that was born dead until Jesus and since Jesus. Jesus brought Life for those who chose it. So where does that leave babies who died physically prior to this so-called "age of accountability"? From this age of accountability a person would have the hope of being "born from above" (born again), but would not anyone NOT reborn remain in the death they were in from the time of natural birth?

 

[Curtis]

When babies/infants die, do they go to heaven?
It seems most Christians believe they do.

A lot of us believe in something called "the age of accountability".
If you believe Isaiah 7:15; is a prophecy about Jesus, then even Jesus had a time in His life
before He knew right from wrong.

Can babies enter heaven without their names being in the Book of Life?
For that matter, can anyone enter heaven without their names being in the Book of Life. ( Rev 20:15; )
If all babies go to heaven.... is it possible their names get erased later in life?
(Obviously everyone doesn't make it to heaven).
Some believe only the children of Christians "are clean" ( 1 Cor 7:14; ) so therefore
they are the only bables/infants that go to heaven.

A controversial verse in Exod 32:32-33; says I blot those out of my Book who have sinned against me.
Was their name in the Book before they sinned against God?

Deut 29:18-20; God says he will blot out the names of those who turn away from Him and worship other Gods.

In Psalms 69:28; David says "May they be blotted out of the Book of Life"....
This verse is controversial because David is talking about his enemies.
but yet, some relate this to a prophecy about Roman soldiers trying to give Jesus vinegar on the cross.

Rev 3:5; says ..."He who overcomes.... I will not erase his name from the Book of Life" ...
What about those who do not overcome?

Now it seems there may be two kinds of people....
Those who's names were in the book... and later blotted out.
...and those... who were never in the Book of Life "from the foundation of the world". ( Rev 17:8; )

Also see Php 4:3; Rev 13:8; Rev 20:12-15; Rev 21:27;

Are there not "three" books (records)? Each person of the Godhead has their own book, which at the end must agree together.

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Book of life, the Lambs Book of life, and the Book of remembrance.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

The Book of remembrance would be kept by the Holy Spirit as he brings to our "remembrance" every thing Jesus has spoken to us.
Jesus, obviously would keep the "Lambs Book of life" as the names in this book were written before the foundation of the world.
God the Father would keep track of the Book of life.

I believe the Father writes into his Book every one born on planet earth. If they die without Christ, their names are blotted out of this book. If they receive Jesus Christ in their life and die their names remain in this book. In the end only the names written in the Book of life, and the names written in lambs Book of life, have eternal life with God. The Holy Spirit confirms all names written in both books.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Can the temporary change the eternal?
A book has a beginning and an end so it must exist just outside eternity.
God does not change so the blotting out of names must be explaining something we have not considered.

Which is more real,that which can change or that which does not.
If it can change then it was never real and if it was never real then it was an illusion,a wisp of smoke,a false image forming an environment based in illusion and judging itself by its own illusion.

Eternal= no beginning,no end,always was,always will be.
If it can change,it is not eternal

If I believe I am stuck in a temporary existence then I can't be or have eternal life because I would be waiting for eternity to begin and that can not happen.

The moment you truly believe you have eternal life,time and space will be nothing but an illusion that never happened.
You will suddenly realize you were never in any danger at any time because there never was any time.

Would love really send it's loved ones on a journey that could destroy them and cause itself to lack something?
If you think eternity can be trumped by time then you are asleep and having a nightmare.

 

[Dovegiven]

Are there not "three" books (records)? Each person of the Godhead has their own book, which at the end must agree together.

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

The Book of life, the Lambs Book of life, and the Book of remembrance.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

The Book of remembrance would be kept by the Holy Spirit as he brings to our "remembrance" every thing Jesus has spoken to us.
Jesus, obviously would keep the "Lambs Book of life" as the names in this book were written before the foundation of the world.
God the Father would keep track of the Book of life.

I believe the Father writes into his Book every one born on planet earth. If they die without Christ, their names are blotted out of this book. If they receive Jesus Christ in their life and die their names remain in this book. In the end only the names written in the Book of life, and the names written in lambs Book of life, have eternal life with God. The Holy Spirit confirms all names written in both books.

That is very intriguing, first I've heard anything like it.

 

[Dovegiven]

Can the temporary change the eternal?
A book has a beginning and an end so it must exist just outside eternity.
God does not change so the blotting out of names must be explaining something we have not considered.

Which is more real,that which can change or that which does not.
If it can change then it was never real and if it was never real then it was an illusion,a wisp of smoke,a false image forming an environment based in illusion and judging itself by its own illusion.

Eternal= no beginning,no end,always was,always will be.
If it can change,it is not eternal

If I believe I am stuck in a temporary existence then I can't be or have eternal life because I would be waiting for eternity to begin and that can not happen.

The moment you truly believe you have eternal life,time and space will be nothing but an illusion that never happened.
You will suddenly realize you were never in any danger at any time because there never was any time.

Would love really send it's loved ones on a journey that could destroy them and cause itself to lack something?
If you think eternity can be trumped by time then you are asleep and having a nightmare.

Yet, we must change by being born again. Calvinists still believe God determines who shall be born again, but that renders choice for Christ as Savior and God pointless.

It is us who do the changing, having been given opportunity to determine our eternal destiny by our choice for life, or choice for death.

Although a newborn is indeed born in sin, our Just God surely would give each of them a chance to choose one way or the other before condemning to hell. It's up to God to know when that choice is made and he knows that won't be altered in the future. So that way all newborns would at least be named in the Book of Life, which name is later subject to staying in there, or blotted out based on the choice later in life. It's good reason for 1 Cor 7 and instructions as to why it's so important for husband to sanctify wife, and wife sanctify husband, making their children holy until a child is able to make a mature decision on his or her own. There was a Jewish belief about holiness of children of Jews v. gentiles which is not valid, but creeps in sometimes when discussing this topic.

I can't imagine how an infant that dies very young could be a threat in Heaven, but should rather be a blessing to all there. God ordered destruction of whole towns in leading Israel into Canaan, resulting in the destruction of babies, men, women, and their animals. Their physical deaths should not be of necessity equate to spiritual deaths, which God alone can determine.

 

[B-A-C]

Can the temporary change the eternal?
A book has a beginning and an end so it must exist just outside eternity.
God does not change so the blotting out of names must be explaining something we have not considered.

God is the only One with an eternal past and an eternal future.
We are created beings. God created man (in His own image). Something that is created didn't always exist.
We can have an eternal future (from now [this point] on... ) but we can never have an eternal past.
If we always existed, if we are not created... then there is no need for us to have a creator.

It's Gods will that everyone should be saved. ( 1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Pet 3:9; )
If it's God's will that everyone should be saved... why isn't everyone saved?
Because He gives us free will to choose.

It's God's will that His will would be done on earth as it is in heaven,
So why isn't this always done? Why do people sin? Because He gives us free will to choose.

God may know the future and the choices we will make, but He doesn't make them for us.
While linear time may not be a restriction for God, it is for us... so we shouldn't assume we know the future.

 

[Curtis]

I think the question should be asked, how far back in "eternity" did God have man on his mind? After all according to 2 Timothy 1:19 God saved us before the world began, which is outside of time itself. Has it not always been the plan of God from "eternity" to create man before he created him? If the names in the "lambs Book of life" were written there before the foundation of the world then we can say that there was never a time in eternity when man was not a part of God's ultimate purpose in bring forth a being for which He can have true fellowship with through out all eternity.
No eye has seen or ear heard what the Lord has prepared for those who love him, but he has revealed them unto us by His Spirit.( 1 Cor 2:9-10 )
Even though we know what the future holds, we do not know all the little details that lead up to it. I am sensing in my heart that this year will bring forth something spectacular. I don't know what it is but I sense it.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

God is the only One with an eternal past and an eternal future.
We are created beings. God created man (in His own image). Something that is created didn't always exist.
We can have an eternal future (from now [this point] on... ) but we can never have an eternal past.
If we always existed, if we are not created... then there is no need for us to have a creator.

The soul had a beginning not spirit.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Nothing can become eternal,because if it can change it is not eternal.
Eternal can not mean "from now on".

1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

We know that at the end God will roll up the universe as a scroll.
Jesus will hand the kingdom over to God and take his place and God will be all in all.
If in the end God is all in all and if this universe came out from God and rolls back up into God
and there is no time or change in God then what we think is reality is not really reality.

God is the only one who was ever real.

Isaiah 45:6 so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting people may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

The idea that God will lose some of his creation is an image that God never formed.
The idea that we even exist apart from God is a false image created and sustained by the notion that it is possible to exist apart and separate from the only one who does exist.

When you dream where does the ground and sky and buildings and people come from.
They are all concepts within you playing out possible combinations of interaction.
You imagine that you are a single character in the dream but you are really just interacting with your own expectations.
When you wake up you realize it was only you the whole time and the illusion begins to fade away.

When the universe is rolled up and Jesus hands everything over to God then the dream will be over and by eternal standards it will have never existed at all.God is not going to change so that truth must exist now and have always existed.

God is an all consuming fire so we will either step in willingly or eventually be tossed in,but it does not matter because it all came out from him and returns to him.

It's God's will that His will would be done on earth as it is in heaven,
So why isn't this always done? Why do people sin? Because He gives us free will to choose.

God is spirit and is whole and perfect in himself lacking nothing,since he is whole in himself he is one.
To suggest that his will shall not be done cancels out any faith that it could be done.
I think he's got it figured out,give him some credit.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If the names in the "lambs Book of life" were written there before the foundation of the world then we can say that there was never a time in eternity when man was not a part of God's ultimate purpose in bring forth a being for which He can have true fellowship with through out all eternity.

Do you suppose that God is waiting for something to change?
There was never time in eternity or it would not be eternity.
To suggest that God is waiting for something is to suggest that he is not whole because he would be lacking something now.

 

[Curtis]

Do you suppose that God is waiting for something to change?
There was never time in eternity or it would not be eternity.
To suggest that God is waiting for something is to suggest that he is not whole because he would be lacking something now.

I would say the only thing God is waiting for is his enemies to be made his footstool.

Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

Even though God has already placed all things under Christ, but we the Church do not yet see all things put under him, but God does.

Eph 1:20 that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Since faith sees the invisible things that man's physical eyes can not see, we the Church must see all things put under him by faith. The only time God's eternal weight of Glory working for us is when we seeing the invisible things. AKA Seeing all things out under him.

2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Even though God has already placed all things under Christ, but we the Church do not yet see all things put under him, but God does.

As you mentioned before many things must take place before jesus hands over everything to God and God is all in all.
The eternal God is and always was all in all.

Since faith sees the invisible things that man's physical eyes can not see, we the Church must see all things put under him by faith.

Agreed,we must agree with God's reality by faith.
I have seen his perfect finished reality invade my temporary reality when what we call a miracle happens through faith.

The only time God's eternal weight of Glory working for us is when we seeing the invisible things.

Yes,everything is beautiful in his time,not mine.
That also seems to be the environment where miracles can take place.

AKA Seeing all things out under him.

I think I understand but maybe you could expand on that.

All came out from God and in the end returns to him.
But since God does not change nothing really left.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
Jesus came from heaven without ever leaving heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Did God's spirit leave him to be in us?
No,but his spirit followed us and remains in him.

 

[B-A-C]

To suggest that his will shall not be done cancels out any faith that it could be done.

I didn't say "none" of His will is being be done. I said not all of His will is done.

We see this dozens of times throughout the Bible.

In Gen 2:17; God gave Adam his first command. Not to eat of a certain fruit.
In Gen 3:6; Adam broke that command. He ate of the fruit.

So did God lie? Did He really wants Adam to eat of the fruit?
Or was Adams free will more important to God than even Adams salvation?

It can't be both ways.

In Matt 4:8-9; we see that Satan "owned" all the kingdoms of the earth. He could have given them to Jesus.
Adam gave Satan the authority over this world when he disobeyed God.
Of course Jesus defeated Satan and took back that authority in Matt 28:18;

Bit even today... people have to make a choice.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I didn't say "none" of His will is being be done. I said not all of His will is done.

Even if some of his will is not done then his will is not done.

God is love,love keeps no record of wrong and does not demand it's own way.
Love also takes the blame for everything it creates.
Love never fails and God will not fail and his will,every teeny tiny bit of it,will be done.

That's what we pray right?
Thy will be done,on earth as in heaven.
To pray with faith we must believe what we are praying for.

It's not for me to judge how God can pull this off,just to believe.
If I can't see how he can do it then that's my problem.

 

[Curtis]

I think I understand but maybe you could expand on that.

All came out from God and in the end returns to him.
But since God does not change nothing really left.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
Jesus came from heaven without ever leaving heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Did God's spirit leave him to be in us?
No,but his spirit followed us and remains in him.

Abraham did not have a clue to how faith works, so God had to teach him. The very first lesson God taught Abram was to walk the length, and breadth of the promised land. Then he told him, "every thing you see, I will give you....". Later God told Abram concerning his descendants " look to the stars in the sky, so shall your seed be"
Now, Abraham learned that Faith is not just believing, but also seeing the end results of your faith. If we speak to the mountain it will never move unless we see the mountain removed and cast into the sea. Faith always sees it's out come, that is why it says the ONLY time God's eternal weight of Glory is working for us, is when we are looking at the things not seen.( 2 Cor 4:17-18 ) The things not seen is what we see by faith! If we never see all things put under Christ it will not happen, that is why Jesus is sitting, and expecting his enemas to be made his footstool.

 

[B-A-C]

Even if some of his will is not done then his will is not done.

God is love,love keeps no record of wrong and does not demand it's own way.
Love also takes the blame for everything it creates.
Love never fails and God will not fail and his will,every teeny tiny bit of it,will be done.

That's what we pray right?
Thy will be done,on earth as in heaven.
To pray with faith we must believe what we are praying for.

God is much more than just love. He is Holy, He is just, He is wrath and judgment.
God does demand certain things. One of those things is obedience.

It's not for me to judge how God can pull this off,just to believe.
If I can't see how he can do it then that's my problem.

That's just it... it's not your problem... a great many who call themselves Christians feel this way.
On one hand it's all love, love, God is love...
But on the other hand...... it's not my problem.... it's not my love.

God's will was done in many people. Could He have done these things without people?
I believe He could have... but He didn't. He wanted to test them.

Could God have built an ark? Yes... but He used Noah to do it.
Could God have killed Goliath? Yes... but He used David to do it.
Could God have warned Ninevah about destruction? Yes... but He used Jonah to do it.
God tested Abraham, He told him to sacrifice his son Isaac, when God saw that Abraham was
really willing to do it, he said that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness.

Could God proclaim Jesus to the whole world? Yes.... but uses people to do it.
It's our job to obey God. It's our job to love one another. It's our job to build ark's
or do whatever God asks us to do. Went we don't do this... it is our problem.

God isn't looking to force His will on people.
God is looking to see who will freely obey Him on their own free will.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

That's just it... it's not your problem... a great many who call themselves Christians feel this way.
On one hand it's all love, love, God is love...
But on the other hand...... it's not my problem.... it's not my love.

The strategy is his plan,I carry out tactical maneuvers but not by myself.
It is his love and not mine,I had no clue what love was.
I enter into his love,his plan.

God isn't looking to force His will on people.
God is looking to see who will freely obey Him on their own free will.

That's what I meant by love does not demand it's own way,he is going to pull off the impossible and use us to do it without demanding anything.

But he does say.if you will to be perfect then follow me.
So the only way that can happen is that eventually everyone will desire to follow him.
Why will they do that?
Proverbs 19:22 What a man desires is unfailing love.

I think he will draw all men when they find out that he is love.
John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 6:37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
What has God withheld from his son?

Proverbs 21:30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD.

 

[Dovegiven]

Do you suppose that God is waiting for something to change?
There was never time in eternity or it would not be eternity.
To suggest that God is waiting for something is to suggest that he is not whole because he would be lacking something now.

Why can't eternity suffer periods of time in certain places of all God's creation? He created earth, including time.

I can only think of time as being a few links in an endless chain. This interval of earth's history is but one link, perhaps preceded and followed by trillions of links each representing events of eternity past, present, and future, all in God's view at once. We can only in a very limited manner comprehend our link, and only speculate about the others, having a faint glimpse of the next link.

In the New earth to come time will still be in operation, with days, weeks, months, sabbaths, years. Isaiah 66:22-23 (KJV)
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

It hasn't happened (a fulfilled link) yet, so remains awaited by present creation and God. In a sense he isn't physically waiting, the concept being more like a scoutmaster having reached the trail's end, waiting for the inevitable catch up of the group. Once caught up to the lead, all may move together again.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Why can't eternity suffer periods of time in certain places of all God's creation? He created earth, including time.

Absolute eternity is absolute and self complete.
If it lacked anything it could not be whole within itself.
If god is perfect then nothing need be added.

There does seem to be an edge or perhaps we could call it an event horizon where interactions take place with players.
And they take place on many layers or levels of reality.

The term Alpha and Omega is used of the word of God.
The beginning and the end can speak of a circle or cycle but is outside of eternity.

1 Corinthians 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

God already is all in all because he made all by his word and in him we live and move and have our being.
When I dream the people and places have their being in me but it is all me.
Each person in my dream is a perspective of mine playing out my expectations of others.
When I wake up I realize It never happened but I was just imagining possible interactions.
I went to another world and never left this one.

I don't think God ever lost anything but if it was even possible for him to lose something this universe would be what that looked like.
Yet even in this fallen scenario he followed us into our nightmare of being separated from him to talk us back home.And give us provision in the wilderness.
In the prodigal son story the son was not born in the pig sty yet we are taught that we are.
The more I learn about God and his love,the more I desire to follow him and the less I think that this world was ever real.
I don't think we should be looking here for the living.

 

[B-A-C]

Absolute eternity is absolute and self complete.
If it lacked anything it could not be whole within itself.
If god is perfect then nothing need be added.

That's correct. God is God no matter what we do.
If everyone gets saved, God is God.
If no one gets saved, God is still God.

God is God no matter what decisions we make.
He presents His will to us. It's up to us to do it, or not to do it.
But either way... God is still God.

Notice it says "may" be all in all. It doesn't say "will" be all in all.
1 Cor 15:28; takes place after Jesus gives the kingdom back to the Father... not before.