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Submission

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Polls is not the forum to post this in. Moved to bible chat.
 
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Colossians 3:17-19
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him. Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Matthew Henry's Commentary:

We must not only do no hurt to any, but do what good we can to all. Those who are the elect of God, holy and beloved, ought to be lowly and compassionate towards all. While in this world, where there is so much corruption in our hearts, quarrels will sometimes arise. But it is our duty to forgive one another, imitating the forgiveness through which we are saved. Let the peace of God rule in your hearts; it is of his working in all who are his. Thanksgiving to God, helps to make us agreeable to all men.

The gospel is the word of Christ. Many have the word, but it dwells in them poorly; it has no power over them. The soul prospers, when we are full of the Scriptures and of the grace of Christ. But when we sing psalms, we must be affected with what we sing. Whatever we are employed about, let us do every thing in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in believing dependence on him. Those who do all in Christ's name, will never want matter of thanksgiving to God, even the Father.
 
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Yes, submission means to obey; and so, when the Lord says in Colossians 3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands,..." it means "Wives, obey your husbands".

But it also says, "AS IT IS FIT IN THE LORD." I believe this means that wives are to submit to/obey their husbands ONLY if what husbands are telling their wives to do IS NOT AGAINST THE LORD!

And, if husbands will submit to/obey the LORD as they are suppose to do , also, then they will not tell their wives to do anything that would be against the LORD.

"Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." Colossians 3:19 in the King James version of the Holy Bible

Also, children are suppose to submit to/obey their parents. (Colossians 3:20 and Ephesians 6:1-3))
But Fathers/parents are not suppose to provoke their child/ren to anger, either, and are commanded to bring them up in the admonition of the Lord. (Colossians 3:21 and Ephesians 6:4)

Servants are suppose to submit to/obey their masters. (Colossians 3:22) But their masters are to treat their servants with love and respect (Colossians 4:1 and Ephesians 6:9)

I know, in the Old Testament, all the godly women called their husbands "master" or "lord".

Masters on earth have a Master in heaven, though, that they are accountable to; so, husbands need to be led by the Lord, and only then is a wife expected to obey her husband. (Colossians 4:1)

Women were made for men, to be their "helpers". (Genesis 2:20-22 and Ecclesiastes 4:9-11 and Proverbs 31)

Citizins are to submit to/obey government authorities. (Romans 13:1-7)

And all these are to submit to/obey the ones who are over them, as long as it is NOT AGAINST GOD to do so.

Thank you for asking this question.
The Lord spoke to me as I answered it.

I have some obeying to do,
4givN
 
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If a woman is married to an unbelieving husband and he forbids her to attend Church. What is she to do then? Refuse to obey him or obey for the sake of the marriage and in the hope of leading him to Christ?

Again, if the wife is to obey only when her husband is being led of the Lord, how does the wife, with a believing husband, know when her husband is being led by the Lord? This will mean that she is more spiritually mature than he is. Suppose there is a disagreement as to what the Lord desires?
 
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I believe that what is outlined in Scripture is very broad. The woman would certainly have to be led by the Holy Spirit, herself, to be able to decide if it was of the Lord or not.

Concerning going to church, the Lord explicitly tell us "not to neglect our meetings together, as is the manner of some". (I know that's stated in the Bible, even though, I cannot find it at this moment. Perhaps, someone else will fill in, for me; if, you do not already know this, yourself.)

Therefore, the woman shall still go to church and that will be her testimony to her unbelieving husband.

Keep going with God, no matter what!
4givN
 
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I believe that every case is unique. However, if the husband is a believer and it is not a right/wrong issue, it is better for the wife to submit to the husband while praying that the Lord speak to him. If this is not done, there will be a lack of submission.
Even if it were a right/wrong issue, the wife's preference should be to resolve the issue first and where that is not possible, submissively ask to be excused from obeying her husband in that regard.
Submission is a state of mind that translates into action. It is possible to obey the husband without having a submissive heart. I believe most submission problems in marriage arise from the wife not having a Holy Spirit given attitude of submission. Most wives actually do obey their husbands. Faith and works go together.
Husbands must love their wives as Christ loved the Church. This love should not result from a wife's submission but in obedience to the Lord. A husband's love must also be in theory and in practice. His wife must know that his love for her is a constant.
However, it is easier for a woman to submit to a loving husband. It is also easier for a husband to love a submissive wife. Wives need love, husbands need submission. The Lord made us so.
 
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I think you meant "if the husband is an unbeliever", didn't you?

We wives are nothing like the Old Testament women. I 've never bowed to my husband and I have never seen my mother do that either. I do not call my husband "lord" or "master" and neither did my mother call my dad that.

Before I married my husband I read him the book titled: (Well, I went and looked for the book and could not find it and I have forgotten the actual title of it, but it was on the subject of "wives submitting to their husbands". It was written by a Christian woman.

Believe it or not I was happy to think that I, finally, had someone else to take over the reigns of decision-making and, of course, my husband was extatic that I would read something like that to him and, actually, have it in my mind to be submissive to him. lol :eek:)

However, my husband believes, wholly, in the wife's roll of submission but does not believe so strongly in the husband's roll of submitting himself to God. And, really, my husband likes to use the term "submission" (from the Bible) more for his own selfish desires than for what the Lord desires it for.

It's kind of like "coconut" shared, on the thread about "the beating of children" or something of that nature: there are people out there who will pick out verses in the Bible to excuse a, truly, UNbiblical act of beat their child/ren. Like,

"Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
"Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
Proverbs 23:13-14 in the King James version of the Holy Bible

People/parents who want to have an excuse to beat-up their children, use this verse to excuse the wrongful understanding of the verse. They are not comparing it to how they/the parents are suppose to use this discipline; out of LOVE and NOT ANGER.

"Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him." Psalms 103:13 in the King James version of the Holy Bible (There's no pitty from a parent who beats-up their child/ren!)

And, "Children's children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers." Proverbs 17:6 (There's no glory in a father who beats-up his child/ren!)

"And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord." Ephesians 6:4 in the King James version of the Holy Bible (No parent is nurturing their child/ren if they are beating them up! And no parent is admonishing a child in the Lord if they are beating them up!)

And, "Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged." Colossians 3:21 in the King James version of the Holy Bible (Every parent who beats-up their child/ren, or beats them up, abusively, is going to discourage them and make them mad and the children will, most likely, grow up "hateful".)

I agree that if an unbelieving husband guides the family where it is not mentioned in the Bible as right or wrong, then the wife should follow her husband's leading, but if her husband (really, whether a believer or not) should guide the family where it is mentioned in the Bible as a wrong action or path, etc., then, the wife should share with her husband why she will not do that or go that way and, then, go from there.

If a wife is "FORCED" to do something that she knows is not right in the sight of the Lord, then, she should pray to the Lord and, I belive, He will not proclaim her guilty and will save her from doing the sin, if it truly is sinful.

I've, actually, experienced that before I met my husband. I was dating a man and he wanted to do something I did not want to. I knew it was a sin, in God's eyes. The man asked me what would I do if he did what he wanted anyway. I told him I would pray to the Lord. He carried on with what he wanted to do but then stopped and then a police officer came to my rescue. I did not scream my head off or try to remove myself from the situation; because, we were on our sixteenth date, he was my boyfriend, we were in his car at a park in the dark, watching the sunset and talking. All I did was "pray" to our Father in heaven and HE saved me from the sin and from sinning.

After my husband and I had our first child together, he wanted me to get my tubes tied. I did not want to do that because I wanted to have another child. The Lord says that children are a gift from God and how blessed are those who have their quiver full of them; however, this could really be considered as one of those "neither right nor wrong" situations, I think; however, I would not get my tubes tied, so, my husband decided to get himself fixed. While we disgussed it and he had made his mind up and made the doctor's appointment, I PRAYED and I kept praying. We got as far as sitting in the doctor's office, waiting in the wating room, for his surgery and me, reluctantly, signing the paper that said it was "okay" with me that my husband was going to have this surgery; when, my husband decided that he was not going to have the surgery after all! I thanked the Lord and we walked out of the hospital and have a second child together that takes after the heart of my husband. He is so glad he changed his mind and he doesn't regret the day she was born. She even looks a lot like him. :eek:)

Who were the names of the three men who would not bow down to the King to worship him? They were the only ones, when the horn blew, that did not bow down to an earthly king to worship him or was it a statue he had made? "Someone, Meshack and Abindigo".
This King was like our government we have, today, and we are instructed to obey those in authority over us, but does God want us to obey them in everything, even if it is AGAINST HIM? As "Meshack, Abindigo, and the other guy", I do not believe that God is telling us to "submit, even if it is a sin".

"Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;" Ephesians 5:25 in the King James version of the Holy Bible

"Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them." Colossians 3:19 in the King James version of the Holy Bible

"Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven." Colossians 4:1 in the King James version of the Holy Bible

4givN
 
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mecartz said:
Does submission mean that a wife should obey her husband?
Submission means that the wife should look to her husband to be the leader in their home, but there's no way that that should be interpreted as allowing herself to be mistreated or disrespected.

SLE
 
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SpiritLedEd has summarised it all. Wives should look to their husbands to be the leaders in their homes. There cannot be two leaders in a boat. It will sink!

The Bible already says that the husband must love his wife. There is a spirit of love and there is a spirit of submission. Most marriages today fail because of a lack of either or both of the two. The Bible is very clear on who should give what. If we cannot submit/love to man/woman who we see, can we really love/submit to the Lord whom we do not see?

Spare the rod and spoil the child- plain and simple. The fact that people abuse the rod does not mean we should throw away the rod. That would be like throwing away the baby and the birth water (excuse me). Humanity is 'getting wiser' than her creator.

The husband can sometimes be wrong, this doesn’t mean that he should no longer be submitted to on other issues. At such times, like 4giveNhope4u did, he should be prayerfully corrected in submission.

Submission is real and is a demand from God, not from men. Even as the Lord demands for men to love their wives unconditionally, he expects that the wife submit to the man unconditionally. It does not matter if he is bitter. If one does not bear the fruit of the Spirit, this shouldn't stop the other from bearing fruit. Love/submission is done as unto the Lord. That is the only solution to broken marriages. God made man a man, and he made women to be women. The woman should delight in her role and the man should delight in his.
This does not mean the wife should bow down and kneel before her husband. She is not his slave. She is a helpmate, equal to him, and they should both agree on most issues, when there is no agreement, the woman should submit the decision to her husband.

Submission is not equal to servitude, it is allowing the man fulfil his God-given role to lead the home. The Lord will ask the man about it if things go wrong, not the woman. Remember the case of Adam and Eve?
 
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SpiritLedEd said:
Submission means that the wife should look to her husband to be the leader in their home, but there's no way that that should be interpreted as allowing herself to be mistreated or disrespected.
SLE
Well said brother . GBU...Mike
 
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There have been instances when I have heard from God about something (earlier in my marriage) i.e.: God asking me to go back to college---and my husband was vehemently against it. I had applied for and received a federal grant that would pay for all schooling and books, with refunds coming back each year. But my husband kept bullying me and telling me I had to keep my job and that we couldn't afford it.

I disobeyed my husband and finished 2 full semesters, using the grant. It did not cost us anything, in fact, we received refunds from the government. I know I did right---not because I disobeyed my husband, but because I obeyed my Master, God.
 
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Being the head of the home does not mean bullying or manipulating. I have had to learn how to quietly walk out of the room or around the block when things get too heavy. I pray, and eventually things calm down.. God is working on our marriage. When I first married him, things were very lopsided and unfair. I don't take submission lightly, but the Lord is my master over any man, even the one I love. Things have gotten a lot better in our marriage last 2 months....and that is because of the Lord, not me, not my husband, no person but the Lord Jesus Christ. To God be the glory!
 
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Dreamer, I agree with you that 'being head of the home does not mean bullying or manipulating'

We do not know what the outcome would have been if you had obeyed your husband for the Lord's sake even when you felt he was wrong about your schooling. Perhaps, in the long run, he would have agreed and your marriage would be happier now. Or perhaps God never intended for you to do the course at all. Even still, maybe what you did is right. Only the Lord knows.

However, the bible still says that wives should submit to their husbands. (Please refer to past posts on this discussion to see my definition of submission) I am sure you did not intend to say that wives should not submit to their husbands.

Shalom
 
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mecartz said:
Dreamer, I agree with you that 'being head of the home does not mean bullying or manipulating'
We do not know what the outcome would have been if you had obeyed your husband for the Lord's sake even when you felt he was wrong about your schooling. Perhaps, in the long run, he would have agreed and your marriage would be happier now. Or perhaps God never intended for you to do the course at all. Even still, maybe what you did is right. Only the Lord knows.
However, the bible still says that wives should submit to their husbands. (Please refer to past posts on this discussion to see my definition of submission) I am sure you did not intend to say that wives should not submit to their husbands.
Shalom
Dude...what's your point ? You sound insecure about your manhood . We know what the bible said about wives submitting , but the men back then were required to provide and take care of their wives and house-holds too .

Take care of your wife as Christ took care of you and submission will not be an issue . Too many men want the blessing without the sacrifices it takes to aquire them . You can be in charge at your house ... O.K.? Mike
 
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Thank you all for your contributions. I have been able to see that tradition and background has an influence on my interpretation of bible doctrine. Those of us from African backgrounds see doctrine in the light of our socio-cultural experiences and those of us from western background see doctrine from our socio-cultural background.

It will surprise us how many African Sisters will subscribe to my line of thinking as reflected in the discussions above. This is a result of ages of male domination. May the Lord remove the hidden spirit of tyranny in the heart of the male species.

May He restore His balance.

The bible was inspired of God and is the word of God. It was written in a Jewish setting. It continues to be relevant today because God does not change. My prayer is that I and all of us be released from all cultural views of what the Lord says. May we come to the unity of the faith.

I hope that couples who are achieving this balance would share their experiences with us
 
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mecartz said:
Thank you all for your contributions. I have been able to see that tradition and background has an influence on my interpretation of bible doctrine. Those of us from African backgrounds see doctrine in the light of our socio-cultural experiences and those of us from western background see doctrine from our socio-cultural background.
It will surprise us how many African Sisters will subscribe to my line of thinking as reflected in the discussions above. This is a result of aeons of male domination. May the Lord remove the hidden spirit of tyranny in the heart of the male species.
May He restore His balance.
The bible was inspired of God and is the word of God. It was written in a Jewish setting. It continues to be relevant today because God does not change. My prayer is that I and all of us be released from all cultural views of what the Lord says. May we come to the unity of the faith.
I hope that couples who are achieving this balance would share their experiences with us
Amen brother . This is a very difficult topic to bring the full mystery of truth out in without going deep into the cultural ideals . Most men today would be stoned to death for their lack of true Godly leadership in both their homes and with their wives .

Men have a great resposibillity in Christ to be all Christ intended them to be both in the home and society as a whole . If a man has truly found himself to be humble and
Christlike towards his wife , then he will also have patience with her , building her up in the word .

The word is and has final authority as you have said . But as a man trying to become Christlike , think about how patient Christ is with you , when you are lacking understanding , or maybe just unwilling , or unable to become as Christ in certain things .

This is the measure as men , we should all use within ourselves to bring about the balance we all need in our marriages . Very hard topic brother as I said . You are right in your scriptures , and after your last post , I must appologize for underestimating you in your willingness to bring about Word and Spirit into this topic .

Most men want authority just because the word says so . Christ Sacrificed and Died to himself for oursake to gain his Authority . We also must die to ourself as fallen man to become what God truly intended us to be , not only in our homes , but in all things . God Bless you brother . Thanks for the sharpening of one man to another . Mike
 
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Submission is fundamental to healthy Christian living and relationships.

Submit to one another out of reverence for the Lord. Ephesians 5:21

In humility consider others better than yourselves. Each should look not only to your own interests but also to the interests of others Philippians 2:3b-4

Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Romans 12:10

Paul writes to slaves to obey (hupakouete) their masters (Eph 6:5) and children to obey (hupakouete)their parents (Eph 6:1) but the word used in relation to wives in Ephesians 5:21 does not mean obey, it is to submit (hupotassesthe, from the word hupotasso.)

In Peter's first letter he tells us to submit to every secular authority. (1 Peter 2:13) Then he tells slaves to submit to their masters. (1 Peter 2:18) Then he tells wives, in the same way, to be submissive to their husbands. (1 Peter 3:1) THEN he says husbands IN THE SAME WAY live with your wives. (1 Peter 3:7) The NIV adds the words "be considerate"; but in the Greek those words are not there, it simply says "in the same way live with your wives", implying submission from them also. (This is true)

For some submission is seen as weakness, but it takes a generous, secure and mature person to willingly and graciously submit. Mutual submission is God's intention in every relationship.

On of the paradoxes of Christianity is that leaders are servants! Jesus Christ demonstrated this when He washed His disciples feet as an act of profound humility and servitude despite being the Messiah, Lord and Saviour of the world.

In fact almost every aspect of Jesus life was marked by humility, sacrifice and service!!!

Everyone, especially those with the responsiblity of leadership, including husbands, should intentionally try to follow Christ's example found in Philippians 2:3-8. (Compare it with Eph 5:25)

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.
Each of you should look not only to your own interests but also to the interests of others.
Your attitude ahould be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who being in the very nature God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant,
Being made in the likeness of man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!


Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her (Eph 5:25)

much :love: and peace
evangeline
 
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