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Soul Sleep? Biblical?

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What does the Bible say about soul sleep?

Question: "What does the Bible say about soul sleep?"

Answer:
“Soul sleep” is a belief that after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of “soul sleep” is not biblical. When the Bible describes a person “sleeping” in relation to death (Luke 8:52;1 Corinthians 15:6), it does not mean literal sleep. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be asleep. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27). For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8;Philippians 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in hell (Luke 16:22-23).

Until the final resurrection, though, there is a temporary heaven—paradise (Luke 23:43;2 Corinthians 12:4) and a temporary hell—Hades (Revelation 1:18;20:13-14). As can be clearly seen inLuke 16:19-31, neither in paradise nor in Hades are people sleeping. It could be said, though, that a person’s body is “sleeping” while his soul is in paradise or Hades. At the resurrection, this body is “awakened” and transformed into the everlasting body a person will possess for eternity, whether in heaven or hell. Those who were in paradise will be sent to the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not a person trusted in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Present-day defenders of soul sleep include theSeventh Day Adventist church,Jehovah’s Witnesses,Christadelphians, and others.

Read more:What does the Bible say about soul sleep?


What does the Bible say about soul sleep?



What do you think, is Soul Sleep a biblical concept. When we die, do we sleep, unconsciously per say, until the Lord decides to have the judgement?

Blessings,

Travis
 
Member

DHC

Hello Travis.

After reading the contents of your thread I must disagree with what you stated.
Question: "What does the Bible say about soul sleep?" Answer:“Soul sleep” is a belief that
after a person dies, his/her soul “sleeps” until the resurrection and final judgment. The concept of
“soul sleep” is not biblical.
The fact that believers do not die but fall asleep until the return of the Christ, is not the result of
a faulty interpretation.


Matthew 9:24

He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.

Jesus was the first to alter our concept of death, the young girl was dead as far as we were concerned.
Not the case according to Jesus though, no one will die until Jesus decides they will die. Jesus is Lord
not only of heaven and earth, but of life and death, and everything in between.


Matthew 27:52

The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Saints sleep until the resurrection and so do unbelievers.


John 11:11

This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may
awaken him out of sleep.”

Lazarus in our eyes was as stiff as the devils tail, not so in the Lord's vision, Lazarus was simply asleep.

Acts 13:36

For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among
his fathers and underwent decay;

Old Testament saints also fell asleep in the Lord and undergo decay, King David is not in heaven yet.


1 Corinthians 15:6

After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now,
but some have fallen asleep;

Even believers in Jesus in the New Testament era, also fell asleep in the Lord and await the resurrection from the dead.

Paul mentions the idea of believers falling asleep on quite a few occassions and here is one below.

1 Corinthians 15:18
Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished

Here is another verse below that without question mentions that those who have fallen asleep in the Lord, remain
asleep until the Lord returns.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not
precede those who have fallen asleep.
The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Hebrews 9:27)
The verse you cited Travis does not say 'the moment we die we face judgement'.

Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment

This verse is telling us that we only live and die once, and then comes the judgement. It is impossible to
extrapolate and state that this verse is saying, we die and are immediately judged, because the verse does not say that.

I wish to continue Travis but this post is far too long already, that will do for now.
 
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There are a number of essentials to the faith: The life, death, and resurrection of the Son of God. The virgin birth, the fact that Jesus was/is 100% God, and yet came to the earth in the flesh, and is also 100% the Son of Man/Adam. That there will be a resurrection and a judgement of the dead, that some will have eternal life, and others eternal damnation. Etc. Etc. A departure from any of these is heresy. There are a number of other issues that are not essentials, and that if we disagree on, are definitely not a salvation issue. That being said, these issues are still important, and any time scripture is misrepresented, it leads to a number of bad places, so many of these things are important to address.

Hello Travis.

Don't be sad Travis, rejoice because your name is written in the book of life.

Please explain how you read the following line from the post above.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

How can the dead in Christ rise when they are already with the Lord?

Of course unbelievers are asleep also.

Hi DHC,

It makes me sad any time I see the scriptures dismissed wrongly, or misrepresented. My name is indeed written in the book of life. These two things are not in any way contradictory.

Here is how I understand 1 Thessalonians 4:16 :

We are made up of a body, soul, and a spirit. We are three part beings. When we die, we give up the ghost/spirit (Luke 23:46, Acts 5:5), our spirit leaves our body, and I believe our soul goes with it. Our souls and spirits go either to Hades, or to be with the Lord, like these souls mentioned in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.​

These souls did not have their physical bodies at this time, because their bodies had been slain on earth, as in they died. The resurrection of the dead has not happened, so they have not received their new bodies quite yet. Nonetheless, they are conscious and active, and aware of what is going on around them.

When the Lord comes, and the dead in Christ arise, it is their physical bodies which are brought to life. Jesus is going to raise their physical bodies, which have perished, back to life, and transform them into new, resurrected bodies like Jesus himself currently has. These bodies will not perish. So, the souls and spirits of those who have departed to be with the Lord will then enter back into their physical bodies, which are now resurrection bodies like Jesus has. Jesus even left his own physical body for about 3 days (unless one believes in a Friday crucifixion, in which case it was only about a day and a half, but that's a whole different discussion). I certainly don't think Jesus was in some state of sleep during that time, I think he was quite conscious.

You said:

"Of course unbelievers are asleep also."​

Well, if this man who was an unbeliever is asleep, then he is having a really bad dream:

Luke 16
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

It sounds to me like unbelievers, when they die, go to Hades and are in torment, awaiting the judgement, at which time they will be cast into the lake of fire. Thats not a very popular message, but I tend to believe it is the truth, however unpleasant it may be.

Blessings,

Travis
 
Active
I just want to clarify for anyone reading this thread that the words in my original post which are in italics are from an article on GotQuestions.com, which I linked to. I thought it would be a good start to this thread, and that it would be easier than me writing out a long intro myself.

The scriptures refer to believers dying as falling asleep. The scriptures, when referring to believers, also says that they die. Both are 100% true. What does this mean though, that we fall asleep when we die?

Luke 20
34 And Jesus said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, 36 for they cannot die anymore, because they are equal to angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him."​

When we die, our bodies perish. But, if we are alive with Christ, we have eternal life, and eternal means just that, eternal, it never ceases. Our soul and spirit do not perish the way our bodies do, but remain active after the death of our body. This is that sleep, that interim period between our physical death, and that time in the future where we will 'wake up' in our resurrected bodies. But are we totally out of it in-between then? I don't think so.

To be born again is to be made alive with Christ. Believers are spiritually alive because the Holy Spirit dwells in their spirit and gives them life. Nothing that happens to their physical bodies changes this in the least bit. Those who are not born again are dead while they walk, spiritually they are dead:

Luke 9
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.​

So, before their physical body dies, they are already dead. When their physical body dies, they are completely dead, and without hope. So it makes sense to make a distinction between the two in their deaths, unbelievers and believers, by referring to believers as being asleep. They are asleep because even though their physical bodies have perished, they are alive in Christ, because he is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Blessings,

Travis
 
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No "soul sleep" after death. Moses and Elijah met with Jesus in Mt. 17:3 Moses died, was buried by God. Yet he was not asleep.
Jesus was not asleep after death. We have hope of being like him.
KJV English terms are often misunderstood, such as the concept of "falling asleep" in death. An example is in 1 Corinthians 15:17-19 (KJV)
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


If that "falling asleep" meant we die upon going to sleep tonight, nobody would be left living today. The Greek koimao means simply to die physically, as though falling asleep never to awaken.
Jesus taught often about hell, people there not asleep, but fully awake after dying and going there.

2 Corinthians 5:6-9 (KJV)
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


When a righteous person in Christ dies, the inner man lives in Heaven until his buried dead body is resurrected with reunited body, soul and spirit.
When an unjust man dies, he goes to hell, and suffers.

Some people say Jesus' parables are metaphoric, but can't supply how a concept could be unrelated to the symbol used, yet serve the lesson subject. Sleeping (naturally take our rest unawake) can't reasonably apply to physical death since without sleep no human can live, so while alive we yet awaken daily. The hearers of such phraseology understood the difference, and ought to understand today with a little study.

If the issue is taking our promised rest in Christ, that begins as soon as we are in Christ, not only after dying physically. In Christ we are fully awake.
 
Member
DHC: 254276 said:
John 11:11
This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may
awaken him out of sleep
Hey DHC can you post, what John
11:11-14 says instead of just verse 11.
I think it explains what sleep means.
I think you mite be confused , like some of the ones Jesus was talking to about Lazarus's death, when he said sleep .
It way to simple to get confused about
 
Member

DHC

Hello Travis.

A good reply to this very difficult topic 'Soul sleep', a reply that I have considered to some depth.

I agree with you that various viewpoints on this subject, 'soul sleep', have no bearing on our
salvation. This is a minor topic that most people would not have too much time to consider.
We are made up of a body, soul, and a spirit. We are three part beings
Yes Travis, we are a triune creature, composed of a body, a soul, and a spirit, it is good that
we agree on this basic definition. Anyone of these components on it's own does not fulfill
the basic definition of the triune creature.
The resurrection of the dead has not happened yet
Correct Travis, the Christ's return, judgement day, and the resurrection of the dead on the day
of His return, are fundamental truths that the apostles taught.

You would be advised to read the following.

Matthew 24
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on
His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from
one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His
right, and the goats on the left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are
blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Here is the divine blueprint that the apostles taught all believers in the first century. Please note Travis
the order of these events.

1) Christ returns with the angels and not with the saints, in order to judge the living and the dead
2) Judgement occurs, i.e., the separation of the believers (sheep) from the unbelievers (goats)
3) Once this separation has been completed, then and only then, do believers inherit the kingdom (heaven).

If anyone of your beliefs or ideas in eschatology do not conform to this blueprint, then you are
to discard that belief or idea promptly. No triune creature will enter the kingdom of heaven until
the day of Christ's return. This narration was the subject of the apostles teaching in general.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the
dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Christ returns with a trumpet blast, then and only then, are the dead in Christ raised. This fits
the divine blueprint exactly, we do not enter into heaven until Christ returns.

2 timothy 3
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there
is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me
on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Again and again Travis, we are told the day of our resurrection, the day we are awarded our crowns.
On that day and not before that special day, will any Christian be allowed entry into heaven. This
special day is the very day when Christ returns, the day of His appearing to all mankind.

If you find an exception to this teaching of the apostles and Jesus, then carefully analyse this
exception. Do not under any circumstances form a general truth, a doctrine that opposes the
primary teaching of the apostles.

If there is a soul sitting under an altar crying out to the Lord for revenge, and this is before the
day of the Lord has occurred? Then we do not form a doctrine on the basis of a singular passage,
mainly because this is well beyond our understanding. A soul is not a triune creature and is outside
the consideration of the apostles teaching in general.

I will not attempt to form any doctrine on the basis of any singular passage in Revelations. We are
only concerned with the triune identity of man in our doctrine, only concerned with the apostles
teaching regarding this triune identity.

We are not interested in enigmatic exceptions to the general teaching of the apostles. A parable is
only ever a parable, a parable is never the basis of any doctrine. You must conform to the apostles
teaching in general. If a parable indicates that someone is in hell before judgement day, then
the general teaching overides the teaching of that particular parable.

If a rich man is sentenced to the flames for not feeding a poor man at his gate. We do not then say,
well Christ taught this truth, so if you do not feed the poor you will burn. Followed by, if you
disagree with what Christ taught then you are a heretic. A unbeliever who feeds a poor person
at their gate, does not and will not, enter the kingdom of heaven. A believer who does not and will
not, feed a poor man at his gate, is more than likely not a believer in the first place. Belief and unbelief
in Jesus is the primary line of division in the scripture, which overides any understanding of any
given parable.

Follow what the apostles told us in general to concenrate on, the Christ, Christ's return, and
love from a pure heart, and you will have it all. Doctrine is constructed from frequent and clear
passages in the scripture, never on unclear and enigmatic exceptions.
 
Active
I'm going to try and respond to this in an organized way. This seems to be a good place to start:

1) Christ returns with the angels and not with the saints, in order to judge the living and the dead
Christ, according to the verses you quoted, is indeed going to come with his angels at his second coming. This does not mean he is not coming with his saints as well:

1 Thessalonians 3
12 and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you, 13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.​

The above verse tells us that Jesus is coming with his saints.

James 2
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.​

The body apart from the spirit is indeed dead. But, the spirit apart from the body is not dead. Our spirits are eternal in nature. They continue to exist whether or not they have a body. It seems our soul stays with our spirit as well, as a general rule. It does not defy anything in the word of God to state that our spirits go, immediately, to be with the Lord when they leave our mortal bodies. The resurrection is the re-entry of our spirits into our bodies. But, new bodies in the case of believers.

Blessings,

Travis
 
Active
Again and again Travis, we are told the day of our resurrection, the day we are awarded our crowns.
On that day and not before that special day, will any Christian be allowed entry into heaven. This
special day is the very day when Christ returns, the day of His appearing to all mankind.
I don't believe dispensationalism is correct, but I do believe in historic pre-millenialism. When Christ comes back, and the dead in Christ rise from the dead, I believe we will all spend 1000 years with Him on earth (not in heaven). Perhaps you can show me one scripture which states that no Christian can go into heaven at all until Christs second coming to earth? I don't remember coming across any before.
 
Active
If there is a soul sitting under an altar crying out to the Lord for revenge, and this is before the
day of the Lord has occurred? Then we do not form a doctrine on the basis of a singular passage,
mainly because this is well beyond our understanding. A soul is not a triune creature and is outside
the consideration of the apostles teaching in general.

I will not attempt to form any doctrine on the basis of any singular passage in Revelations. We are
only concerned with the triune identity of man in our doctrine, only concerned with the apostles
teaching regarding this triune identity.
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness. The book of Revelation is no exception.

Revelation 7
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen." 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."​

We see here a great multitude of people, humans, from all nations tribes and tongues. this is before Christs second coming. How do I know? The lamb (Jesus) is still at the right hand of the Father. Revelation is not in perfect order from front to back, chronologically. But, there is a chronological order to it, that can be discerned at various places. In this case, we know that chapter 7 is in between the 6th seal being opened, and the 7th (Final) seal being opened. Chapter six ends with the sixth seal, and chapter 7 begin with "After this I saw..." The 7th seal is opened in chapter 8. So the events we see taking place in Chapter 7 are before Christ's second coming. They clearly tell us that these people (saints) are in heaven, before the throne of God.

They are conscious, awake, and before the throne in heaven, serving God day and night. It could not be put any more plainly. These things are not in hard to understand figurative language, they are straight forward facts given to us. How can we dismiss them as saying anything other than what they plainly say?

Blessings,

Travis
 
Active
We are not interested in enigmatic exceptions to the general teaching of the apostles. A parable is
only ever a parable, a parable is never the basis of any doctrine. You must conform to the apostles
teaching in general. If a parable indicates that someone is in hell before judgement day, then
the general teaching overides the teaching of that particular parable.

If a rich man is sentenced to the flames for not feeding a poor man at his gate. We do not then say,
well Christ taught this truth, so if you do not feed the poor you will burn. Followed by, if you
disagree with what Christ taught then you are a heretic. A unbeliever who feeds a poor person
at their gate, does not and will not, enter the kingdom of heaven. A believer who does not and will
not, feed a poor man at his gate, is more than likely not a believer in the first place. Belief and unbelief
in Jesus is the primary line of division in the scripture, which overides any understanding of any
given parable.
"A parable is only ever a parable, a parable is never the basis of any doctrine"

I don't really consider the teaching that Jesus gave about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16 to be a parable. It seems to be a true story in all actuality. But either way, almost all of Jesus's parables are basis's for doctrine. In fact, you used the parable of the sheep and the goats earlier to try and make your point. That seems a bit unfair to say someone else can't do something that you apparently can do, don't you think? I am reminded again:

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,​

No where does the narrative state that the rich man was sent to hell solely for refusing to feed a poor man at his gate. As you stated, the rich man's lack of faith and unregenerate heart are what sent him to hell. His refusal to feed the poor man at his gate was just evidence of those realities. No serious student of the scriptures would imply from this narrative that Jesus was suggesting that the rich man went to hell only because he didn't feed Lazarus. Nothing about Jesus's parables are untrue or wrong in any way. They are perfect. They need to be understood the way Jesus wants them to be understood though. In the case of the Rich man and Lazarus, it would seem outright absurd for Jesus to tell this thing the way he did if it was in fact just a make believe, superstitious, untrue idea that unbelievers go straight to Hades when they die.

Everything I have seen in scriptures points directly to the fact that unbelievers go to Hades and are in torment a the moment of their death and that Believers go to be with the Lord, wherever he may be, which in this case would be at the right hand of God Almighty:

Acts 7
55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." 57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. 58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
He is asleep, because the death of his body is only temporary. In due time he will be raised from the dead into a body that is incorruptible. In the mean while, Stephen is with the Lord, awaiting that Day when the Lord comes to judge the world.

Blessings,

Travis
 
Member

DHC

Hello Travis.

I'm going to try and respond to this in an organized way
Excellent.
Christ returns with the angels and not with the saints, in order to judge the living and the dead
Christ, according to the verses you quoted, is indeed going to come with his angels at his second coming.
This does not mean he is not coming with his saints as well
If you do not mind Travis, you have contradicted yourself. Christ returns to judge the living and the dead,
believers and unbelievers, Travis. Christ cannot possibly return with the believers, because the believers
have been told to wait for the return of Jesus Christ. Believers must undergo judgement day also, there are
no exceptions to this instruction.

33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 “Then the King will say to
those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you
from the foundation of the world.

Only after Jesus returns can you recieve the green light, to enter the kingdom of heaven and not before
this day of judgement.
1 Thessalonians 3
12 and may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all, as we do for you,
13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming
of our Lord Jesus with all his saints
The verse you quoted Travis contradicts your claim about the saints arriving with Jesus. Here I will explain,
just read the first part of the quotation from the letter to the Thessalonians.

'so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming
of our Lord Jesus'.

The believers are not bona fide saints until they are established to be blameless! There can be no saints
established as blameless until Christ returns. You will be holy when Jesus decides you are holy, and that
is declared on that day, and that is with all the saints, the living and the dead saints. Any other interpretation
is a corruption of what Jesus clearly stated in the text (Matthew 24:34).

To say that Jesus returns with the saints in tow, is fundamentaly erroneous and is not what we have
been taught by the apostles.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit
the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world".

Jesus is telling you that you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven until he returns. The return of
the Christ is one very important part of the apostles teaching. You have been taught an unstable
interpretation of the letter to the Thessalonians.

Here Travis I will rearrange your quotation in the hope that you will see what Paul is saying.

13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father,
with all his saints at the coming of our Lord Jesus

Does that help Travis to see what Paul is saying, otherwise you contradict what Jesus said in
Matthew 24.
 
Active
Here Travis I will rearrange your quotation in the hope that you will see what Paul is saying.

13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father,
with all his saints at the coming of our Lord Jesus

Does that help Travis to see what Paul is saying, otherwise you contradict what Jesus said in
Matthew 24.
How do I rearrange this, so that it no longer says what it plainly states:

[1Th 4:13-17 ESV] 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.​

I'm not sure how to make it more plain than what it says here, namely that Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.


To say that Jesus returns with the saints in tow, is fundamentaly erroneous and is not what we have been taught by the apostles.
I'm confused by this. Mainly because what I and others have been posting regarding this subject has been the writings of the apostles, and of the Lord himself, which was recorded/taught by his apostles. This would be the apostles teachings, would it not? What are these teachings of the apostles you are referring to that are being contradicted? I'm not argueing with you about when the unrighteous are raised from the dead and judged, only as to where our souls/spirits go when we die. It seems quite clear to me, in a fairly plain reading of the apostles teachings which we have quoted from New Testament texts, that they believed the Lord was going to bring the saints, who are asleep/dead, back with him when he comes from heaven to earth the second time to raise those who are dead in Christ, gather together the elect still remaining on the earth, and to enact vengeance upon the earth in his wrath. What is it that I am missing?

Blessings,

Travis
 
Member

DHC

How do I rearrange this, so that it no longer says what it plainly states:

[1Th 4:13-17 ESV] 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.​

I'm not sure how to make it more plain than what it says here, namely that Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.




I'm confused by this. Mainly because what I and others have been posting regarding this subject has been the writings of the apostles, and of the Lord himself, which was recorded/taught by his apostles. This would be the apostles teachings, would it not? What are these teachings of the apostles you are referring to that are being contradicted? I'm not argueing with you about when the unrighteous are raised from the dead and judged, only as to where our souls/spirits go when we die. It seems quite clear to me, in a fairly plain reading of the apostles teachings which we have quoted from New Testament texts, that they believed the Lord was going to bring the saints, who are asleep/dead, back with him when he comes from heaven to earth the second time to raise those who are dead in Christ, gather together the elect still remaining on the earth, and to enact vengeance upon the earth in his wrath. What is it that I am missing?

Blessings,

Travis
Hello Travis.

Please travis will you bear with me.

I want you to read your last post very carefully, because I am going to ask you some questions about your quotation.
Your certainly not reading all of this quotation properly, you need to understand the entire quotation.
How do I rearrange this, so that it no longer says what it plainly states:

[1Th 4:13-17 ESV] 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to
you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself
will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

I'm not sure how to make it more plain than what it says here, namely that Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
 
Loyal
There is no such a thing as "soul sleep". When a person dies they do look like they are sleeping, but they are not, they are just plain dead, that is the body.
When a person becomes a "new creation" in Christ, they are "delivered" from the powers of darkness of this world. Then they translated into the Kingdom of God where Jesus sits on the right hand of God!!!
It is impossible to be in Christ and not be where he is!!! It is also impossible for Christ not to be where we are as he is in us!!! We are in him, and he is in us. We are right now sitting in Heavenly places in Christ!!!
"Even when we were dead in our sin God raised us up and has made us sit in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus". When a Christian dies his body just wore out and it goes into he ground, but his spirit stays where it has always been, in Christ in Heavenly places. Our citizenship is in Heaven, not this earth, and it is from Heaven we are awaiting his appearing. What is the Christians hope in this life? To know the redemption of our body!
 
Member

DHC

There is no such a thing as "soul sleep". When a person dies they do look like they are sleeping, but they are not, they are just plain dead, that is the body.
When a person becomes a "new creation" in Christ, they are "delivered" from the powers of darkness of this world. Then they translated into the Kingdom of God where Jesus sits on the right hand of God!!!
It is impossible to be in Christ and not be where he is!!! It is also impossible for Christ not to be where we are as he is in us!!! We are in him, and he is in us. We are right now sitting in Heavenly places in Christ!!!
"Even when we were dead in our sin God raised us up and has made us sit in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus". When a Christian dies his body just wore out and it goes into he ground, but his spirit stays where it has always been, in Christ in Heavenly places. Our citizenship is in Heaven, not this earth, and it is from Heaven we are awaiting his appearing. What is the Christians hope in this life? To know the redemption of our body!
Hello Travis.

Here is a sentence from your quotation of Paul's letter (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound
of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This line states that the dead in Christ will rise first on the day that Christ returns. It does not say that the bodies of the dead
are raised on that day. We the living are waiting for the return of the Christ even though we are already seated with Christ.
Travis, who are the dead in Christ that will rise first?

 
Active
Travis, who are the dead in Christ that will rise first?
Ah, your making it too easy on me. That's a simple one:

Lets start with a little foundation though.

Luke 23
46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.
James 2
26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.​

Death means to have your spirit (and soul) leave your body. Jesus was literally dead, just as dead as any other human being that has ever died. He was dead because his spirit left his body. So, with this definition of death in mind, lets look at what Jesus said right before that:

Luke 23
39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."​

I don't want to argue about where Paradise is or isn't exactly, other than the fact that we know it wasn't in the tomb where Joseph and Nicodemus placed Jesus's really dead body, which his (Jesus's) spirit had departed from.

Just as Jesus's spirit was elsewhere, away from his body, before he rose from the dead, so too are our spirits away from our body, when we die, awaiting for the resurrection of the dead. Luke 23: 43 says that this man would be with Jesus in Paradise that very day? So unless Jesus is a liar, it would seem that this man's spirit was elsewhere, in Paradise that day, instead of in a grave somewhere. Likewise, we too will be separated from our body, and present with the Lord, where he is now, when we die. For to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And when He returns to earth, at his second coming, he will bring his saints with him (from heaven, where they were with him before he came):

1 Thessalonians 3
13 so that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.​

So, the dead in Christ as, Paul uses the term:

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.​

Are those who have physically died here on earth, before the coming of the Lord.

Blessings,

Travis
 
Loyal
Hello Travis.

Here is a sentence from your quotation of Paul's letter (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound
of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

This line states that the dead in Christ will rise first on the day that Christ returns. It does not say that the bodies of the dead
are raised on that day. We the living are waiting for the return of the Christ even though we are already seated with Christ.
Travis, who are the dead in Christ that will rise first?
Those who are dead in Christ are already in Christ in Heaven, just in the same way the born again believer who it still alive in a physical body yet sitting in Heavenly places in Christ. It is a bodily resurrection where we receive a new spiritual body. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 

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