Sheol-Hades

[B-A-C]

I am starting this thread under Bible Study rather than Ethics or Prophecy because I don't really want this thread to get into "who will go to hell" but rather does such a place really exist and what does the Bible say about it.

I'm also inclined to start in the NT and work backwards....

Doing a quick search on "hell" returns these verses.

Matt 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell.
2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

From the verses above, it seems hell is a place for evil/wicked people and God has the power to send people there. Something else I thought was interesting was not only people can be imprisoned there, but angels also (2 Peter 2:4) I suppose this makes sense as satan is an angel himself.

...part 2 coming up.

 

[B-A-C]

Here is a quick search on Hades

Matt 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Luke 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luke 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
Acts 2:31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
Rev 1:18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
Rev 6:8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

It seems Luke 16 is the only place that says Hades is a place of torment specifically, but even so, i sounds like a rather unpleasant place. In Rev 20 we see that Hades "gives up its dead" so that they can be judged.

In Rev 20, we also see that Hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

I am including the context verses below so that anyone doesn't get the idea that because Hades has given up its dead that no one will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

part 3 coming..

 

[B-A-C]

I also thought it was interesting that the specific words hell and hades only appear in the NT, however Jesus himself used both words even at other times he used the words sheol or the grave. There is a place called the "lower parts of the earth" also.

Ezek 26:20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living.
Ezek 32:24 "Elam is there and all her hordes around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, who instilled their terror in the land of the living and bore their disgrace with those who went down to the pit.
Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?

... there will be a part 4, but it will have to wait.

 

[jari]

hi
you should put up some greek words because many times different greek words are translated to the word hell.

and Jesus talked lot about gehanna (which was translated as hell) which i'm told was garbage dump where the bodies continually burned and there was the worms too.

 

[B-A-C]

Good idea...
Both of these are from Matt 5:22,

G4442
πῦρ
pur
poor
A primary word; "fire" (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.

G1067
γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

H7585
שׁאל שׁאול
she'ôl she'ôl
sheh-ole', sheh-ole'
From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: - grave, hell, pit.

Many times these words are used interchangably. I have heard it explained something like this.

I may tell my kids...
Go to your room, or maybe go sit in the back seat of the car.
Perhaps I have said these words to them before several times.
But one day I say.. go sit in the car. I don't say "the back seat" but yet they know where to sit. I may say, "Go in the house and get your homework done and don't come out until it's done." I didn't say go to your bedroom, yet they knew where I was talking about.

Some of these places are physical places, the name of a city of valley, for example.
Places like Heaven and hell are hard to quantify whether they are entirely physical, spiritual or both.

The thought is, some of these places are similar or may be near each other (for example shoel may include Abraham's bosom and Hades) like two different rooms in a house.

For example Abraham's bosom in Luke 16:23
G2859
κόλπος
kolpos
kol'-pos
Apparently a primary word; the bosom; by analogy a bay: - bosom, creek.

It is inferred that a bay is part of a larger body of water.

 

[B-A-C]

The Lake of fire is mentioned 5 times in the Bible, all of them in Revelation.

Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10; Rev 20:14; Rev 20:15; Rev 21:8
It is generally accepted the Lake of Fire is NOT hades or hell. In fact we see that hell itslef will be cast into the Lake of Fire in Rev 20:14.

I have heard it explained that hell is a temporary place, much like jail.
the Lake of Fire is a permanent place, much like a prison.

Hell itself appears to be a place of flames, fire torment and agony.
Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Also see Matt 5:22 and Matt 18:9 (fiery hell)

Many believe the reference to "unquenchable fire" in verses like Matt 3:12 and Luke 3:17 to also be references to hell.
In verses like 1Cor 7:9 the word "burn" may have a double meaning. We may 'burn' with desire, but we might also 'burn in hell' because of it. (Mark 9:43)

 

[jari]

seems like all the words and descriptions given by Jesus are figurative explanations of how hell is like and not literal because they all contradict each other.
i doupt it's because there are different kind of places or states theres just one type but many descriptions to describe the one place.

in the parable of rich man and lazarus there are lot of things that can only work in parable. For example the rich man called abrahamn his father but Jesus never gave admission to the pharisees that they would be children of abraham. as all jews considered them as children of abraham but Lord told them it was not so.
in the parable which Jesus told He himself allowed this idea. probably because jews would then understand it included them all in the parable and just being a jew didnt mean you were truly abrahams seed but only those of faith are.

bosom from dictionary:

a : the human chest and especially the front part of the chest <hugged the child to his bosom>

 

[B-A-C]

There are yet other verses that talk about a "place" or weeping and torment, of gnashing of teeth and a fiery furnace. Some say these verses aren't talking about hell, but if not, I have to ask what place is this?

Matt 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 22:13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matt 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Luke 13:28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

as a side note: some ask, how can a place of fiery flames also be a place of darkness?
Those who know me well know I was a fireman for 10 years, fires in enclosed spaces are often so full of black sooty smoke you can't see your hand in front of your face. Much less any fire that may be in the house.
Another answer is, God is God, he can do whatever he wants. He may just make "invisible or flameless" fire.

I have to go to work now. (I guess that's good it will give time for others to respond
The next section I hoping to talk about is OT sheol.

 

[B-A-C]

seems like all the words and descriptions given by Jesus are figurative explanations of how hell is like and not literal because they all contradict each other.
i doupt it's because there are different kind of places or states theres just one type but many descriptions to describe the one place.

in the parable of rich man and lazarus there are lot of things that can only work in parable. For example the rich man called abrahamn his father but Jesus never gave admission to the pharisees that they would be children of abraham. as all jews considered them as children of abraham but Lord told them it was not so.
in the parable which Jesus told He himself allowed this idea. probably because jews would then understand it included them all in the parable and just being a jew didnt mean you were truly abrahams seed but only those of faith are.

bosom from dictionary:

a : the human chest and especially the front part of the chest <HUGGED the to bosom his child>

It may not be a physical place, but I would think it would be a spiritual place at least. Luke 16 and Lazarus may have been a parable, but parables are often based on true stories and things that happen in "real life" that people can relate to. You never see a parable based on mythical being, or science fiction, or some fantasy world that people can not relate to.

Be that as it may, even discounting the parable of Lazarus, I would hate to get too caught up in one verse about hell. Many a false doctrine is built upon "a single scripture". I have posted literally dozens of other verses about hell. We should probably take those into consideration as well.

Some believe the parable of Lazarus to be based on actual events that happened while Jesus' friend Lazarus was dead (John 11:39)

 

[jari]

i think they are descriptions of the same thing. ones it talks about suffering of body , in one description the darkness seems to be part of the problem and in one description the body and soul are destroyed:


(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[jari]

It may not be a physical place, but I would think it would be a spiritual place at least. and Lazarus may have been a parable, but parables are often based on true stories and things that happen in "real life" that people can relate to. You never see a parable based on mythical being, or science fiction, or some fantasy world that people can not relate to.

Be that as it may, even discounting the parable of Lazarus, I would hate to get too caught up in one verse about hell. Many a false doctrine is built upon "a single scripture". I have posted literally dozens of other verses about hell. We should probably take those into consideration as well.

i think its very unrealistic story apart from it being a parable. i doupt there's any dialogue with people in hell and in heaven. but in the parable rich man talks to abraham who is in heaven. the rich man is also asking water to cool his tong. why only that why not ask to get out of there? or why the cashm between them is the problem? why is he even talking to abraham and why not to God?
chasm would be no problem for God to cross. yet that was the reason he couldnt get help.
so its either bad excuse (as if God couldn't) or its just a parable.

also it says in bible that the dead know nothing and that they sleep untill world ends. so there's probably no "holding cells" of temporary punishment before final punishment. why would there be?
i don't see a point in temporary states or places.

it could also be some of this thinking is originated from catholism who believe in purgotary which means temporal hell punishment in order to purify the believer so he can enter heaven.

 

[B-A-C]

it could also be some of this thinking is originated from catholism who believe in purgotary which means temporal hell punishment in order to purify the believer so he can enter heaven.

I agree, this is probably correct. However the RC church has a few incorrect ideas. As you posted, when you're dead you're dead. (Unless God brings you back to life, we know Jesus raised a few people from the dead, including Lazarus).

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There isn't a second chance, you can't be prayed back into Heaven, you can't have someone give enough indulgences to get you to Heaven (even when you're still alive), you can't do enough good deeds (for yourself, or someone who is dead) to get anyone to Heaven. Only Jesus can get you there and if you didn't accept him as your savior before you died....

...well, that's sort of what this thread is about

Interestingly enough, even in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, the Rich man told Lazarus to go back and tell his family the truth, so they wouldn't end up like he did. He didn't say go back and tell them to pray me out of this mess. he knew he was doomed.

 

[B-A-C]

This is a little off topic, but I suppose it could be related in a way.
Usually when Jesus was telling someone a parable, he told them it was a parable.
In Matt 13, Jesus tells 4 parables in that single chapter. He identifies each one as a parable. Matt 13:18; Matt 13:24; Matt 13:31; Matt 13:33; Also Matt 21:33 and Matt 24:32 .
In the case of Lazarus and the rich man, (Luke 16) Jesus never says the story is a parable.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This is a critical area of understanding because this is about the ultimate destination.

The people who are "given up" raise questions about our understanding.

Who was in the sea? =I don't know,but I have a few options and there are most likely some I have not considered.

The interpretation is also "Death and Sheol","death and Hades" was a choice of translators.There was no equivalent to "Sheol" in the Greek language so the translators chose the closest Greek word "Hades".
There are stories of Hades in Greek mythology but there are no stories of Sheol in the first five books of the Bible.
Moses would not have known what "Hades" was but he wrote about Sheol.
Hebrew culture from the time of Abram to the Babylonian captivity never spoke of a conscious afterlife and Greek culture which came later had entirely different ideas about the afterlife.

Another thing to consider about these verses is that all these are judged for their deeds but we are not told it is there deeds that determine who goes into the lake of fire.I'm sure we can agree that it's not works that justify us.

It is the Lamb's book of life that determines who goes in.
So we should probably discuss this book of life.
We know that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world so the book of life as I understand it was written before foundation of the world.

Question: If someone is in heaven now what will happen to them when the current heaven passes away and all that's left is his words?

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

P.S.I appreciate this type of open study,it can really save me hours of research because of all the different insights.

 

[jari]

Question: If someone is in heaven now what will happen to them when the current heaven passes away and all that's left is his words?

there's actually different heavens in bible. the one we call sky. another we call space. but in bible i think these two are called heavens. thats why it says God created the heavens and the earth.
now the paradise, after life heaven is different...

and i guess you could say heaven as God's resident is figurative speech. as God is spirit so the paradise or "heaven" is probably very different from sky and outer space.

 

[jari]

This is a little off topic, but I suppose it could be related in a way.
Usually when Jesus was telling someone a parable, he told them it was a parable.
In , Jesus tells 4 parables in that single chapter. He identifies each one as a parable. ; ; ; ; Also and .
In the case of Lazarus and the rich man, () Jesus never says the story is a parable.

seems like Jesus always used to speak to multitudes with parables:

(Mat 13:34) All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

(Mar 4:34) But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

it wasnt always said something was a parable. maybe disciples knew they were such becaue they inquiried the meanings afterwards. but the disciples didnt always understood Jesus spoke to them with parables: Mat 16:12

 

[B-A-C]

This is a critical area of understanding because this is about the ultimate destination.

The people who are "given up" raise questions about our understanding.

Who was in the sea? =I don't know,but I have a few options and there are most likely some I have not considered.

The interpretation is also "Death and Sheol","death and Hades" was a choice of translators.There was no equivalent to "Sheol" in the Greek language so the translators chose the closest Greek word "Hades".
There are stories of Hades in Greek mythology but there are no stories of Sheol in the first five books of the Bible.
Moses would not have known what "Hades" was but he wrote about Sheol.
Hebrew culture from the time of Abram to the Babylonian captivity never spoke of a conscious afterlife and Greek culture which came later had entirely different ideas about the afterlife.

Another thing to consider about these verses is that all these are judged for their deeds but we are not told it is there deeds that determine who goes into the lake of fire.I'm sure we can agree that it's not works that justify us.

It is the Lamb's book of life that determines who goes in.
So we should probably discuss this book of life.
We know that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world so the book of life as I understand it was written before foundation of the world.

Question: If someone is in heaven now what will happen to them when the current heaven passes away and all that's left is his words?

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

P.S.I appreciate this type of open study,it can really save me hours of research because of all the different insights.

Wow, a lot of good questions here

Who was in the sea? I've always taken this just to be those who have died at sea, those who's bodies aren't in the ground, the earth, a grave, etc...

I disagree with your opinion of OT hell, but we've discussed it before.
Sheol is mentioned in the OT, even in the first 5 books.

A conscious after-life. Now that's a possibility for another great thread.

Judged for their deeds after being released from hell. - My understanding is, they wouldn't be in hell in the first place if they were a believer/Christian, etc... They would either be in the ground, the sea, or in Heaven if this were the case. So they aren't being judged to see whether they are saved of not, that has already been determined. I believe the unsaved sinners will be shown what they are being punished for.

The Book of Life - yet another great thread for discussion
Your comment goes back to the pre-destination thought of God chooses who will and won't go to heaven before we are even born.
(I'm a free-will advocate, but that's yet another thread of discussion)
Certain verses in the Bible talk about blotting out names from "The Book", is this the book of life? Exod 32:32; Exod 32:33; Deut 9:14; Deut 29:20; etc...
The one exception is Psalms 69:28 which specifically mentions the book of life.
Also see...
Php 4:3; Rev 3:5; Rev 13:8; Rev 17:8; Rev 20:12; Rev 20:15; Rev 21:27; Rev 22:19

Heaven - yup, another great discussion. This one has been discussed at some length in the past on here, but it's been a while.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Who was in the sea? I've always taken this just to be those who have died at sea, those who's bodies aren't in the ground, the earth, a grave, etc...

Of course that would be my first guess but can one bypass hell by dying at sea?That wouldn't make sense if hell is a place of torment that people earn.I don't feel that I can fully understand Heaven,the heavens,the heavenlies,heavenly places,paradise and "the place he has gone to prepare for us" unless I can understand earthly things like the sea.

Some things to consider are:

Habakkuk 1:14 You have made men like fish in the sea, like sea creatures that have no ruler.
There is a lot of variation between the various translations for this verse.

The sea is personified and has a voice:
Isaiah 23:4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, even the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins.

It seems to be saying"I ain't yo mama".

This refers to Moses but the pattern is important:
Nehemiah 9:11 You divided the sea before them, so that they passed through it on dry ground, but you hurled their pursuers into the depths, like a stone into mighty waters.

The sea now divided is a boundary or end by men seeking the word but the sea and everything in between was apparently no help:
Amos 8:12 Men will stagger from sea to sea and wander from north to east, searching for the word of the LORD, but they will not find it.

This is not an extensive review of the sea but it does start to form a picture of the sea being a player in the whole process.

Back to Hell now:

I disagree with your opinion of OT hell, but we've discussed it before.
Sheol is mentioned in the OT, even in the first 5 books.

I said there was no hell or Hades in the first 5 books.There was only Sheol,but there was no stories or detailed descriptions of Sheol that was my point.
Sheol and Hades are not the same.Wikipedia has a pretty good article with lots of resources.

there's actually different heavens in bible. the one we call sky. another we call space. but in bible i think these two are called heavens. thats why it says God created the heavens and the earth.
now the paradise, after life heaven is different...

and i guess you could say heaven as God's resident is figurative speech. as God is spirit so the paradise or "heaven" is probably very different from sky and outer space.

I follow you,it's a little more complicated than what is taught, especially since we are seated with Christ in heavenly places either in spirit or in another dimension.
Heaven,the heavens,the heavenlies,heavenly places,paradise and "the place he has gone to prepare for us". Some of these may be the same thing.Then on top of that we have the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God which appear to be for us here and now.

 

[B-A-C]

The sea is personified and has a voice:
Isaiah 23:4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, even the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, nor bring up virgins.

It seems to be saying"I ain't yo mama".

LOL.. I wasn't familiar with this verse, but thanks for it. I wonder how this relates to creationism vs evolution?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

From wikipedia:

Hades from Greek Aδης (older form Afίδης), Hadēs, originally Aιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Aΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen" was the ancient Greek god of the underworld.

The genitive Aδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades".

Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead. In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.

Hades is strictly Greek in origin and simply means the unseen.
There is lots of info available on the Greek god and his place.
When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria in 200bc the word Hades was used in place of Sheol.

Research on Hellenism and Hellenistic Judaism can help shed light on how some of our present ideas of the soul and heaven and hell are actually a mix of Judaism,Greek mythology and philosophy.By the time Jesus arrived on the scene the common people had many myths that varied from place to place.

From Hellenism-wikipedia:

Philo of Alexandria was an important apologete of Judaism, presenting it as a tradition of venerable antiquity that, far from being a barbarian cult of an oriental nomadic tribe, with its doctrine of monotheism had anticipated tenets of Hellenistic philosophy. Philo could draw on Jewish tradition to make metaphors of customs that Greeks thought primitive or exotic, such as "circumcision of the heart" in the pursuit of virtue.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-4"></sup> Consequently, Hellenistic Judaism emphasized monotheistic doctrine (heis theos), and represented reason (logos) and wisdom (sophia) as emanations from God.

The Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife at all.
The Pharisee's Believed in a Physical resurrection here on earth and were not looking to be carted off any where,they were awaiting the Kingdom of David.Even now most Jewish sects believe in Tikkun olam (Hebrew: תיקון עולם‎) is a phrase that means "repairing the world."