saved vs eternal life vs the resurrection vs judgment

[B-A-C]

Christians are "saved". You hear this all the time. Saved? What does that mean? Saved from what? Saved for what?

It's amazing how many different views there are on this. The word "saved" appears over 50 times in the New Testament.
The Bible makes it clear that people who do not accept Jesus and His teachings will end up in Hell/Hades and eventually the lake of Fire. ( Rev 21:8;
Rev 20:15; )

This is what Jesus does for us. He "saves" us from eternal damnation and the lake of fire. If no one goes to hell or the lake of fire
then Jesus didn't really save us from anything. This is the good news... this is the gospel. We don't have to go to hell.

Eternal life... this seems pretty straight forward. Eternal = non-ending, non-ceasing, forever, without end.
In a sense.. everyone lives forever. Even after we die, our soul lives forever. Some of us will eventually get new bodies.
But in the new Testament sense... Christians die once... then we live with God/Jesus in either heaven, the New Jerusalem, or on the Earth.
Non Christians "die" twice. They will eventually die a physical death, just like Christians. The difference is, they will face "the second death".
(which is the lake of fire). But eternal life is living with God/Jesus eternally... forever.
Believe it or not some "Christians" do not believe this. "Eternal life" to them simply means with Jesus while they are alive.
I'm not sure how they can construe this from any scripture of any context of the meaning of eternal life.

This is another thing Jesus does for us. He gives us eternal "life", as opposed to "eternal death". We are called "joint heirs" with Jesus
and we can go "to His Father's house" where there are many dwelling places (King James says "mansions"). There is no more pain, suffering
or sorrow there.

The judgment. Some churches teach Christians won't face any judgment. I see just the opposite in the Bible. At least 5 scriptures say we
will be judged. Many parables teach we will be judged. But perhaps we won't face something called "the Great White Throne Judgment".
All men will be judged. The Bible says the angels will be judged also. Everyone ends up in one of two conditions, in the lake of fire or
with Jesus and God in the second life. There really aren't any verses that say we go to heaven, but we go where Jesus is... the New Testament says
this will be the New Jerusalem. (which comes down OUT of heaven).

The resurrection... there is a lot of controversy about this. How and when it happens. Even exactly what it is.
Some believe it is the rising of the soul. Many believe in something called "soul sleep" and everyone will rise when Jesus calls their names.
1 Thes 4:16; John 5:28-29; John 11:24; etc.. but many believe the soul immediately goes to heaven ( 2 Cor 5:6-8; )
and the "body" is resurrected later "on the last day" whenever that is. This is a little misleading because the old flesh body doesn't get
resurrected, but we are given a new glorified body.
... but either way... we will be resurrected one day. We will never die.

John 11:26; and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Rom 6:8; Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9; knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

 

[Hekuran]

The Greek word usually translated 'saved' has a broader usage than the english word. It encompasses both the concept of rescue and healing, depending on context.

Strongs's #4982: sozo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

So when Jesus says to the woman healed of bleeding in Mark 5:34 it's legitimate to translate it 'your faith has healed you', or 'faith has saved you'. Plenty of Bibles find a middle way saying 'made you whole'.

So, we are saved from sickness, from judgement and ultimately from death.

 

[B-A-C]

So when Jesus says to the woman healed of bleeding in Mark 5:34 it's legitimate to translate it 'your faith has healed you', or 'faith has saved you'. Plenty of Bibles find a middle way saying 'made you whole'.

So, we are saved from sickness, from judgement and ultimately from death.

Agreed. It is all those things. But in the scheme of eternity... which one matters?

 

[Hekuran]

Ah man! Are you asking me to give a rundown on the Greek word usually translated eternity too?

 

[Butch5]

Christians are "saved". You hear this all the time. Saved? What does that mean? Saved from what? Saved for what?

It's amazing how many different views there are on this. The word "saved" appears over 50 times in the New Testament.
The Bible makes it clear that people who do not accept Jesus and His teachings will end up in Hell/Hades and eventually the lake of Fire. ( Rev 21:8;
Rev 20:15; )

This is what Jesus does for us. He "saves" us from eternal damnation and the lake of fire. If no one goes to hell or the lake of fire
then Jesus didn't really save us from anything. This is the good news... this is the gospel. We don't have to go to hell.

Eternal life... this seems pretty straight forward. Eternal = non-ending, non-ceasing, forever, without end.
In a sense.. everyone lives forever. Even after we die, our soul lives forever. Some of us will eventually get new bodies.
But in the new Testament sense... Christians die once... then we live with God/Jesus in either heaven, the New Jerusalem, or on the Earth.
Non Christians "die" twice. They will eventually die a physical death, just like Christians. The difference is, they will face "the second death".
(which is the lake of fire). But eternal life is living with God/Jesus eternally... forever.
Believe it or not some "Christians" do not believe this. "Eternal life" to them simply means with Jesus while they are alive.
I'm not sure how they can construe this from any scripture of any context of the meaning of eternal life.

This is another thing Jesus does for us. He gives us eternal "life", as opposed to "eternal death". We are called "joint heirs" with Jesus
and we can go "to His Father's house" where there are many dwelling places (King James says "mansions"). There is no more pain, suffering
or sorrow there.

The judgment. Some churches teach Christians won't face any judgment. I see just the opposite in the Bible. At least 5 scriptures say we
will be judged. Many parables teach we will be judged. But perhaps we won't face something called "the Great White Throne Judgment".
All men will be judged. The Bible says the angels will be judged also. Everyone ends up in one of two conditions, in the lake of fire or
with Jesus and God in the second life. There really aren't any verses that say we go to heaven, but we go where Jesus is... the New Testament says
this will be the New Jerusalem. (which comes down OUT of heaven).

The resurrection... there is a lot of controversy about this. How and when it happens. Even exactly what it is.
Some believe it is the rising of the soul. Many believe in something called "soul sleep" and everyone will rise when Jesus calls their names.
1 Thes 4:16; John 5:28-29; John 11:24; etc.. but many believe the soul immediately goes to heaven ( 2 Cor 5:6-8; )
and the "body" is resurrected later "on the last day" whenever that is. This is a little misleading because the old flesh body doesn't get
resurrected, but we are given a new glorified body.
... but either way... we will be resurrected one day. We will never die.

John 11:26; and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Rom 6:8; Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9; knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.

The Scriptures speak of the resurrection of the body.

40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (1 Cor. 15:40-44 NKJ)

The Greek word for resurrection means to stand again. This would indicate that the body that is raised is the same one that is buried. This would have be. If Christians got a different body it wouldn't be resurrection, it would be reincarnation.

You said above, "in a sense everyone lives forever". If that is the case, why does Paul say that the gift of God is eternal life? If everyone already has eternal life, what reason is there for God to offer it as a gift?

 

[Dave M]

"in a sense everyone lives forever". If that is the case, why does Paul say that the gift of God is eternal life? If everyone already has eternal life, what reason is there for God to offer it as a gift?

when we look at all scripture about eternal life we will find many passages that say we have it now when we are born again. so to answer your question not EVERYONE has it, only those born again have it. So that is the gift that he offers not everyone excepts.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(so here we have scripture saying we have eternal life now, this is still a gift, its a gift we receive when we believe according to this scripture)

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
(I think this is a good scripture to drive home what B-A_C was suggesting)

 

[B-A-C]

A lot of this gets into are we triune beings. ( Soul, Spirit. Body ). So what happens to our bodies.

Gen 3:19; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Job 10:9; 'Remember now, that You have made me as clay; And would You turn me into dust again?
Job 34:15; All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Psa 90:3; You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
Psa 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
Ecc 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Ecc 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

The old body is not resurrected, it simply returns to dust.

Matt 27:52; The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
John 11:11; This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
Acts 7:60; Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 13:36; "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;
1Cor 15:6; After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
1Cor 15:18; Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Cor 15:20; But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 5:10; who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
2 Pet 3:4; and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

When Samuel came back to life.

1 Sam 28:15; Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."

The new body is not the old body.

1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

 

[Butch5]

when we look at all scripture about eternal life we will find many passages that say we have it now when we are born again. so to answer your question not EVERYONE has it, only those born again have it. So that is the gift that he offers not everyone excepts.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
(so here we have scripture saying we have eternal life now, this is still a gift, its a gift we receive when we believe according to this scripture)

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
(I think this is a good scripture to drive home what B-A_C was suggesting)

OK, I would say that no one has it presently as all Christians die. Even in the passage you quoted here from John 11 Jesus said, "though he die". In this passage Jesus says He is the Resurrection and the life. He's tying eternal life to the resurrection. Eternal life, by definition, means unending life. Yet, in this passage Jesus acknowledges that the believer will die. I think when Jesus says one has eternal life He's saying they have a part in the Resurrection.

OK, so, if the not everyone has it, then can we say that the wicked don't suffer forever?

 

[Dave M]

that the wicked don't suffer forever?

I see where you coming from and can understand your reasoning, although I do not agree,,,,, may I ask are you in a denomination? I am non denomination just in case you are curios.

, yet I think when the bible talks about eternal life there is also eternal death, here are some scriptures where I get this from.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (they are going to same place as the devil is going)

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(this is clear as night and day to me as it says they are going to tormented for ever, if they ceased to exist they would not be tormented)

 

[Butch5]

I see where you coming from and can understand your reasoning, although I do not agree,,,,, may I ask are you in a denomination? I am non denomination just in case you are curios.

, yet I think when the bible talks about eternal life there is also eternal death, here are some scriptures where I get this from.

Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (they are going to same place as the devil is going)

Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(this is clear as night and day to me as it says they are going to tormented for ever, if they ceased to exist they would not be tormented)

But you can't have them alive and dead. Rev 20 only says that the devil, false prophet, and the beast will be will be tormented.

The real problem here is that the word "forever" is wrong. The Greek word aion cannot mean forever. This is where translator bias comes into play. The translators translate based on what they believe. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. He also spoke of this aion and the aion to come. If we use the translators words we'd say Jesus spoke of the end of the forever. Or, that He spoke of this forever and the forever to come. We can see that that makes no sense. If forever ends it's not forever. If forever doesn't end you can't have a forever to come. So, in verses like this where the definition doesn't fit the translators theology they simply use a different word. Some translations use, age, some use world. The word aion does not mean world. Actually, the best English word to translate aion is age. If we translate it age it fits everywhere it's used. However, as we see, when they translate it forever, it doesn't work. Therefore the word doesn't mean forever, it means an age. Here is Young's Literal Translation.

YLT Revelation 20:10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. (Rev. 20:10 YLT)

 

[Hekuran]

Agree with @Butch5 on this. In the Bible there are two ages: the present age, and the age to come. The age to come will be ushered in when Jesus returns in glory. That means what is usually translated 'eternal life' is more accurately rendered 'life in the age to come'.

Not everything in the Bible is crystal clear, and for that reason it's worthwhile to step back and think through what can be understood without confusion, and where its not entirely clear.

The Bible is perfectly clear about the resurrection. The faithful will rise from their graves when Jesus returns and our bodies will be glorified, governed by the spirit, not the impulses of the flesh. At the same time creation will be released from bondage to decay.

The Bible is also clear about judgement. Those who reject God or are unfaithful will not enter his promised rest. The wages of sin are death.

But the nature of that judgement is not so distinct. I've looked into it a fair bit and can't draw a firm conclusion.

Let's hold on tightly to the truth that's taught clearly and be humble about our opinion on the things that are not immediately clear to us.

 

[Sue D.]

There is the passage about Lazarus and the rich man found in Luke 16 : 19 - 31. Looking at vs 22 to 23 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angle so Abraham's bosom. the rich man also died and was buried.
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. vs 24 Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

The physical body of both men died -- the soul / spirit of both were either in torment or in Abraham's bosom immediately. And since Jesus Christ went to hell and back up in our place -- He also took those in Paradise / the other side of Abraham's bosom back up with Him when He rose again. Which indicates that when believers die Now -- they are immediately with Jesus Christ.

 

[Butch5]

There is the passage about Lazarus and the rich man found in Luke 16 : 19 - 31. Looking at vs 22 to 23 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angle so Abraham's bosom. the rich man also died and was buried.
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. vs 24 Then he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."

The physical body of both men died -- the soul / spirit of both were either in torment or in Abraham's bosom immediately. And since Jesus Christ went to hell and back up in our place -- He also took those in Paradise / the other side of Abraham's bosom back up with Him when He rose again. Which indicates that when believers die Now -- they are immediately with Jesus Christ.

Hi Sue,

I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about the afterlife at all, but rather it is a judgment against those to whom Jesus was speaking, the leadership of Israel. Why would one think this is a parable about an afterlife? If that 's the case, does it mean that the rich go to hell and the poor get saved? Jesus didn't say the rich man was wicked, He just said he was rich. Jesus didn't say that Lazarus was righteous, just that he was a beggar. What is here that would indicate that this is what happens to the righteous and the wicked?

The details of the parable give us an indication of what it means. We're told that the Rich Man was clothed in purple and fine linen. What does that mean? We see that the Rich Man is a Jew. Why? We're told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers, why? Why is the beggar named Lazarus? What is "Abraham's bosom:"? All of these details are indications of what the arable is about. This parable is drawn from several Old Testament passages. For instance, the Rich Man is said to be suffering torment in flames in Hades. However, Jesus indicated that Gehenna is where the wicked will go. In the Scriptures Hades is usually translated the grave, not a place of torment. The grave is where the body goes. The Rich Man was in Hades, this indicates his body. We know that dead people can't speak so we should consider that this is a parable.

So, what do the details mean? In Jesus' day Israel didn't have a king, however, the priesthood unofficially served that role. Purple was the color royalty and the priests wore fine linen, this indicates that the Rich Man represents the priesthood. We're also told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers. Levi had 5 brothers. Levi is the head of the Levites which were the tribe of the Priesthood. Why is the beggar named Lazarus? Lazarus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means, God Help. Who did God Help? Was it not Jesus? Wasn't the Father with Him and in Him. We're told that Lazarus was covered in sores. Jesus was covered in sores from the lashings. We're told that the dogs licked Lazarus' sores. In the Scriptures Gentiles are referred to as dogs by the Jews. So we have the Rich Man, the Jews, rejecting Lazarus while the dogs, the Gentiles, are accepting Him. Why is Lazarus in Abraham's bosom? Contrary to popular belief, Abraham's bosom is not a location somewhere in the Earth. Abraham's bosom is mentioned in another place in Scripture,

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

We see that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in an intimate relationship with Abraham. So, if Lazarus represents Jesus, what does it mean that He is in Abraham's bosom? It means that Abraham is embracing His long promised seed. The Jewish leadership thought that they were the seed of Abraham and heirs to the promises. While they were the physical seed of Abraham, they weren't the promised seed of Abraham. Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham. Paul tells us,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, in this parable we see the long awaited Seed of Abraham being embraced by Abraham, and the Jews, the physical seed, being cast off. They'er suffering in the flame. Since this is Hades and not Gehenna, what is the flame. We can see what it is from several Old Testament prophesies. In the Song of Moses, Moses wrote of what would happen to Israel in the latter days.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.1 (Deut. 32:18-25 KJV)

Paul quotes from this passage and applies it to his time so we know that's the time period. Notice verse 22. God says a fire is kindled in His anger and it will burn to the lowest Hades. This passage is about judgment in Christ's day. We know that that judgment came in A.D. 70. What we see here is that God's anger is the fire that burns in Hades. The Rich Man, the priesthood, is suffering God's anger in this parable. We have another prophesy of this same event. I'll post a few passages for the sake of space. It's best to read all of Isaiah 28 and 29 to get the full gist of this judgment.

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!1
2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.
3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:1 (Isa. 28:1-3 KJV)

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (Isa. 28:14-15 KJV)

God says Israel will be trodden underfoot. In verse 14 we see that God is addressing the leadership of Israel. However, notice what Israel has said, they had made a covenant with death and are in agreement with Hades. This is their agreement with Rome. He goes on,

Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.1
2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.1 (Isa. 29:1-4 KJV)

Notice here that God is going to lay siege against Ariel, Jerusalem. This is where the temple and the priesthood are. Remember, God said they in a covenant with Hades. Hades is the grave. In verse 4 Gods says of the priesthood you shall be brought down, you shall speak out of the dust. The Rich Man who represents the priesthood was in Hades, the dust, speaking out of the ground. Notice also that God says their voice shall be one who has a familiar spirit. We can see this in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I'm going to stop here as this post is getting long. There is a lot more I could say on this parable. I haven't even touched on Psalm 50 or the book of Malachi which also are mentioned in this parable. The point is that in this parable Jesus is weaving together several Old Testament prophesies that speak of the coming judgement of Israel. These priests who knew the Scriptures well should have seen this.

 

[CareGiver]

The death of the repentant believer takes place when we born again of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, who is the/our resurrection and life by which we are begotten again (1 Peter 1:3).

Jesus Christ "tasted death" for every man when He died in our behalf to atone for sins and redeem us from the curse of the Law. GOD raised Him back to life again from death and now He is alive forevermore (Revelation 1:18). After returning as a quickening Spirit on Pentecost, those who were justified and born again by being baptized into Christ Jesus with His Spirit (not water), were joined together with His Spirit into His death (and thereby justified - Romans 6:3,7, Colossians 3:1,3) and raised up together with Him in the (His) resurrection, having Eternal Life by being one with the Son and GOD the Father. Born again believers "fall asleep" when we put off our earthen tabernacle (2 Corinthians 5:1-8) to be in the presence of the Lord.

Death is thereby abolished (2 Timothy 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15:26) for the born again believer having the Spirit of Jesus Christ as the life in and through (Galatians 2:20), in that, the scripture "It is appointed unto man once to die" (Hebrews 9:27) is fulfilled by Jesus Christ who died in our behalf and was raised to life, for those believers who truly have repented to be born "of God."

If we have truly been born again of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, we have died and no longer live, but Christ is the life in and through us and death is abolished because we are one with GOD the Father and God the Son, as seen in John 17:20-23, 1 John 5:10-13.

The scripture in Acts - Revelation is not straight forward the same way for all believers, because the progression of a "Gentile" being without Christ who received the Spirit of adoption and died to sin with Christ (Romans 6:4-6, Philippians 3:10) to be born again by being baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ into Christ Jesus and His death and raised up together,.............

in comparison a descendant of Jacob (Israelite) who was born holy as a member of the good olive tree that was reconciled to God and saved by being baptized with water, and then overcame the world to be baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ to be in the resurrection as a son and heir of God in the Kingdom of God,............

in comparison to a child born holy, having the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them received at conception from either parent having the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them (1 Corinthians 7:14), but is not saved as a child of God until they truly believe and come to repentance, and then overcome the world by Jesus Christ being formed in them to become a son of God and heir of God in the Kingdom of God.

The first believers were baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ to be born again in Christ and the resurrection,........but then their descendants were born of God by the Spirit of Jesus Christ being in them as their offspring, even though they were not saved until they became repentant believers. The stone became a great mountain and filled the whole earth Dan 2:35.

This is as clearly as we have been able to understand after about 30 years of "wrestling" to understand "hard things to understand" that sometimes do not appear to line up.
And we are still less than satisfied that our understanding is clear and accurate, but we are posting this to share and to learn.

Merry Christmas, and may GOD bless,.............with love in Christ

 

[B-A-C]

We know that dead people can't speak so we should consider that this is a parable.

and yet "dead" people speak all through the Bible.

in comparison to a child born holy, having the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them received at conception from either parent having the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them (1 Corinthians 7:14),

This passage simply means a child is saved until the age of accountability. After that they are accountable for their own salvation.

 

[CareGiver]

Verses referring to the spiritually dead, separated from God by their trespasses/sins.

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry (Luke 15:24)

And you…………., who were dead in trespasses and sins, (Ephesians 2:1)

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, (Colossians 2:13)

But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives (1 Timothy 5:6)

"And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,…………"I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead (Revelation 3:1).

The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

 

[PloughBoy]

A lot of this gets into are we triune beings. ( Soul, Spirit. Body ). So what happens to our bodies.

Gen 3:19; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Job 10:9; 'Remember now, that You have made me as clay; And would You turn me into dust again?
Job 34:15; All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Psa 90:3; You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
Psa 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
Ecc 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Ecc 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

The old body is not resurrected, it simply returns to dust.

Matt 27:52; The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
John 11:11; This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
Acts 7:60; Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 13:36; "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;
1Cor 15:6; After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
1Cor 15:18; Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Cor 15:20; But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Thes 4:13; But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
1Thes 4:14; For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
1Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 5:10; who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
2 Pet 3:4; and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."

When Samuel came back to life.

1 Sam 28:15; Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."

The new body is not the old body.

1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

 

[PloughBoy]

I love it, we must be from the same tribe!, and walk down that same road , do you remember when the writer said; did not our hearts burn while He walked and talked with us. Thank you Jesus, i’m Not alone. Shalom Jerusalem, coming down out of the sky

 

[Butch5]

and yet "dead" people speak all through the Bible.

And we have to "interpret" this. The Bible uses parables, allegories, hyperbole, metaphors and other figures of speech. We know that dead people can't speak. We can't go to a cemetery and have a conversation with the dead. We have "NO" evidence in the physical word that the dead can speak. So where does this idea come from? It's been believed by people long before the New Testament was written. It's something that is just believed without evidence. Sometimes things become so universally believed that they're no longer questioned. When people who believe this see the Scriptures, it just "seems" to confirm their belief. However, this whole idea is based in "preconceptions" and "interpretation". There's nothing in the Bible that teaches that the dead are alive. On the contrary, the Bible reads that the dead know nothing, that they cannot praise God, that their thoughts perish, and so on. It's hard to imagine someone actually talking whose thoughts have perished. How would such a one even form a sentence. However, given the evidence that the dead are dead, it seems much more plausible that when we see what appears to be the dead speaking in the Scriptures that we are looking at a parable or some other figure.

 

[B-A-C]

And we have to "interpret" this. The Bible uses parables, allegories, hyperbole, metaphors and other figures of speech. We know that dead people can't speak. We can't go to a cemetery and have a conversation with the dead.

No we don't. That's when we get into trouble.
How do you know the dead can't speak?

1 Sam 28:15; Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."

Samuel spoke when he was "dead".

Matt 17:3; And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Moses and Elijah talked to Jesus after they were "dead". Well certainly Moses was dead.

Lazarus (even the rich man) spoke after they were "dead". Abraham spoke after he was "dead".

Is Jesus dead? Do you pray to Him? I do. He speaks to me all the time. Is He "dead"? I guess that means He can't speak.