Saved by Election Or Saved By Free Will

[RJ]

Two apposing views:

• One states that your are saved by Election, that God, first selects you, regenerates you with the Holy Spirit and then causes you to believe.
• The second, states that your are saved by an act your of free will faith (belief) first, then you recieve the Holy Spirit and thus are then regenerated or have a renewing of your mind..

My vote is that you must exhibit a free will faith (belief) first.

Scripture clearly teaches that "your faith" is required in order for God to administer His blessing upon you. The phrase "your faith" or "their faith" is given thirty-three times in the New Testament New King James Version. Statements such as "God's faith" or "Jesus' faith" do not appear.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."

Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well."

Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great [is] your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you."

Mark 5:34 And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction."

Mark 10:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

Luke 7:50 Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

Luke 8:48 And He said to her, "Daughter, be of good cheer; your faith has made you well. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19 And He said to him, "Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well."

Luke 18:42 Then Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well." 43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed Him, glorifying God. And all the people, when they saw [it], gave praise to God.

John 6:39b "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

2 Corinthians 1:23 Moreover I call God as witness against my soul, that to spare you I came no more to Corinth. 24 Not that we have dominion over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy; for by faith you stand.

1 Peter 1:6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, [being] much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see [Him], yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of [your] souls.

The "faith of Jesus" appears once in Scripture but does not say that Jesus gave faith to the unsaved that they might believe. Rather, it indicates that the believer kept the same faith as Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here [are] those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
The following verses are a few of many that clearly show that a personal belief in Jesus Christ is required for salvation. Believing is not thrust upon anyone by God but requires a conscious free will decision by each individual. Nowhere in Scripture is there any verse, verses or concepts which support the blasphemous doctrine that God predestined any specific individuals to eternal life and others to eternal damnation.

1 John 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Acts 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

Romans 9:33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to] [bring] [us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

The story of Jesus' healing the Centurion's servant clearly shows that man can have faith in Jesus which is not imputed faith from God. Jesus marveled at the Centurion's faith. If the man's faith had come from God, Jesus would not have marveled.

Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, "Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 "For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this [one], `Go,' and he goes; and to another, `Come,' and he comes; and to my servant, `Do this,' and he does [it]." 10 When Jesus heard [it], He marveled, and said to those who followed, "Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

The reason man doesn't respond to the Gospel is not because he has the inability to do so. The following verses clearly show that man has the free will to believe.

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing!

Luke 8:12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

John 5:40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

1 Thessalonians 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up [the] [measure] [of] their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

The person who refuses to believe in Jesus Christ cannot have eternal life with God because he has rejected Christ as the Mediator between God and man provided by Christ's resurrection.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden [His] face from you, So that He will not hear.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 8:24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins."
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 " If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."

1 Timothy 2:5 For [there] [is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
<?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t75 coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" oreferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"><v:stroke joinstyle="miter"></v:stroke><v:formulas><v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"></v:f><v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"></v:f><v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"></v:f></v:formulas><vath o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"></vath><o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"></o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape style="WIDTH: 465pt; HEIGHT: 3pt; VISIBILITY: visible; mso-wrap-style: square" id=Picture_x0020_1 type="#_x0000_t75" o:spid="_x0000_i1025" alt="http://www.biblelife.org/black_bar.gif"><v:imagedata src="file:///C:\Users\joe\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:title="black_bar"></v:imagedata></v:shape>

 

[Boanerges]

Joe there are of course many variations on that. I am in total agreement that God gives man choice . You know my view: election based on foreknowledge of freewill. In fact He knows us before we are formed in the womb (Jer 1:5 )

I believe the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us (all who will) to come by freewill and at the same time God say He predestines according to foreknowledge. That foreknowledge or foreknowing is no big task for an eternal God. He sees the hearts of all men and knows who will come to Christ. He also knows who will reject Christ.
This places election and freewill in harmony as election is plainly according to foreknowledge of a man's heart.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[RJ]

Joe there are of course many variations on that. I am in total agreement that God gives man choice . You know my view: election based on foreknowledge of freewill. In fact He knows us before we are formed in the womb (Jer 1:5 )

I believe the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us (all who will) to come by freewill and at the same time God say He predestines according to foreknowledge. That foreknowledge or foreknowing is no big task for an eternal God. He sees the hearts of all men and knows who will come to Christ. He also knows who will reject Christ.
This places election and freewill in harmony as election is plainly according to foreknowledge of a man's heart.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I like your wording with: election based on foreknowledge of freewill.

That's the omipotent power of our God without negating our free will, which of course He gives us the choice in any decision and He has already been to the end and knows who is in the throngs of the believers.



This is a difficult poll, many are choosing not to vote.

 

[Boanerges]

Well there are plenty of views on most subjects in the body of Christ.
I suspect this one has been debated more then most.
One of these days we will see Jesus coming and He will straighten everything out. Till then we have to love each other in His Name.:shade:

 

[eddieb]

how about ye are saved by GRACE THRU FAITH.

note on faith: even the measure of faith unto salvation is GIVEN by God. all things are from God
therefore no flesh shall boast or glory in his presence.
there will be no preacher standing before God saying 700 saved in my congregation on sunday. in revelations it says no one was worthy to open the seal, but then he looked again and behold a lamb slain on the altar.
Gen22:8And Abraham said, My son, God will provide HIMSELF a lamb for burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

the only thing we do is choose to obey or rebel. of course we have free will deut30:19 says i call heaven and earth to record this day AGAINST you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore chose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
salvation is so great so awesome.
let me tell you a dream i had one time. in proverbs (i think) it says something about the weight or measurements of the bag are in the hand of the Lord.
dream: i was walking down this path and i found a little coin purse. i opened and looked inside. there was a pile of "gifts from God" that where represented like penants on a necklace. (bride adorns herself for the groom) one looked like waves of water which was living water swiming in my belly now(hallelujah!), some represented spiritual gifts, and even more i saw one was a woman(wife) and there was some little ones which will one day be my kids. all of these had a dull color. but at the top of the pile was a shiny silver cross. on this one i focused and "in the spirit" i took notice and kinda pondered. then i woke up. then He told me this is the most important gift i have given to you.
there is nothing we can do. we cant add to salvation. we cant earn it. it is a gift. By His grace Thru faith He gave us.
so if you are redemmed of the Lord REJOICE! because of what the Lord has done.

 

[Boanerges]

how about ye are saved by GRACE THRU FAITH.

I see no contradiction.

 

[MikeC1956]

My salvation is based upon the atoning work of Jesus Christ. That justification, that is the imputation of God's righteousness to a soul, that is at it's core, incapable of maintaining a truly righteous, holy and pure life. That this same soul, loving the darkness, would not, of it's own motivation, seek even a passing knowledge, much less a saving knowledge of God.

Now I've been a Christian long enough to have heard the evidence on both sides. I think, what's happening, at least amoung those who are less....mmmmm...the only term I can think of is short-sighted, is terminology and semantics seem to be getting in the way.

I believe the order of salvation to be (abbreviated edition):

God calls
We answer
God stregthens
We work, out of loving gratitude AND obedience
God keeps
We persevere

The list that follows is by no means exhaustive, and in every case one absolutely must read these in context of the letters and gospels that they are found..

Joh 14:6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Joh 6:44,45 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Eph 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Rom 3:19-28 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Rom 11:5,6 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

 

[spirit1st]

GOD knew who would have a love of the TRUTH! He is trying to help others enter in!
Who knows who He saw that would want TRUTH?
Still HIS love is for all and He wants All Born -Again!

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[stephen]

We are saved neither by Election......neither by Free Will

"For by grace are you saved....through faith.....that not of ourselves: such is the gift of Almighty God....Not of human action or thought.......lest any proud soul should boast" Eph 2:8

 

[RJ]

We are saved neither by Election......neither by Free Will

"For by grace are you saved....through faith.....that not of ourselves: such is the gift of Almighty God....Not of human action or thought.......lest any proud soul should boast" Eph 2:8

It is impossible to argue with the truth, of course you are correct Stephen it is by grace through faith.
But if it is not by election or free will, how is it that you recieve this grace that you are to have faith in?

Jesus said (parapharsing): " I stand at the door and knock and who ever opens the door, I will come in and sup with him".

"who ever opens the door" is that works?

Here is my inner most spiritual feeling about this:

God also calls His Grace a gift.
And like any gift it must be free and it cost you nothing, except you must recieve it, like any gift.
If a person does not recieve this gift, it goes back to the one who did purchase it and then it is no longer a gift for that recipient.
.
God puts His gift on the table and you either take it off or you don't.

Especially, in light of what Jesus said above, I don't call my very moment of recieving the Spirit of God into my being act of works that is the same as a "filthy rag" but a moment in time of devine opportunity and choice.

Through out devine history God has always given "free will" choice. He gave it to Adam , He gave it to Abraham and He gives it to us.

How did it happen to you? Wasn't your moment something similar to what it says in Romans 10:8-13. Wasn't it you, who called out on the name of Lord?

 

[Boanerges]

We are saved neither by Election......neither by Free Will

"For by grace are you saved....through faith.....that not of ourselves: such is the gift of Almighty God....Not of human action or thought.......lest any proud soul should boast" Eph 2:8

While I agree with what you say this thread was examining another aspect of God's Word that does tells us of election and freewill.
No one here denies salvation by grace through faith but the point of much contention (lately) is to whom God offers such grace and faith.
When I each those gates whether I am the greatest apostle or the youngest babe in Christ I have but one leg to stand on and that the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Emily Ruth]

Free Will

The doctrine of the elect is, IMHO, a doctrine of men limited to their 4 dimensions and human wisdom. It ignores a great deal of clear scriptures about choice.

The doctrine of free will points to the ONLY thing we have any control over in this life and therefore the only thing we are held accountable for.

God is perfect love and perfect justice and if we did not have free will, then we would not be held accountable for anything - it would be all God's fault.

I grew up in a Presbyterian church (doctrine of Election only) and they never taught me any different. I knew their teachings were not right though but had no way (I thought) of knowing that there were other teachings out there. It wasn't until I finally reached my darkest hour and cried out to Him and threw open my heart to the 'truth' no matter what that was and opened His word for Him to teach me did I learn about free will.

Dave Hunt wrote a huge book documenting where the doctrine of election came from and the horrible history surrounding it and it filled in the rest of the blanks for me to finally understand the roots of that doctrine. To me, it is a doctrine that creates prisons for some people - I was one of them.

 

[RJ]

The doctrine of the elect is, IMHO, a doctrine of men limited to their 4 dimensions and human wisdom. It ignores a great deal of clear scriptures about choice.

The doctrine of free will points to the ONLY thing we have any control over in this life and therefore the only thing we are held accountable for.

God is perfect love and perfect justice and if we did not have free will, then we would not be held accountable for anything - it would be all God's fault.

I grew up in a Presbyterian church (doctrine of Election only) and they never taught me any different. I knew their teachings were not right though but had no way (I thought) of knowing that there were other teachings out there. It wasn't until I finally reached my darkest hour and cried out to Him and threw open my heart to the 'truth' no matter what that was and opened His word for Him to teach me did I learn about free will.

Dave Hunt wrote a huge book documenting where the doctrine of election came from and the horrible history surrounding it and it filled in the rest of the blanks for me to finally understand the roots of that doctrine. To me, it is a doctrine that creates prisons for some people - I was one of them.

Some good points Emily!

I too call your, "crying out" as a "free will" choice, you know "call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved'.

Oh, I believe that God initiated your moment in time, that He knocks on you door first, but you had to respond and open that door to your heart.

If God said that Jesus died for all and all sins and that God reconcilled the whole world unto himself, So, isn't it true that God must knock on everyones heart. Unfortunately, only a few open the door!

I couldn't agree more with David Hunt!
For me, Hunt is talking about the negative side of Election Theology. Here's why, and no one can't tell me that this hasn't happened before:

A person searching for truth, God, ends up in a wonderful church.
In that church, this person is taught saved by election only. The premise is God elects you to be saved and then gives you faith.


So the person waits, goes to church, reads the Bible and prays.
Be good they say, keep working hard and it will come but, in this person's mind, nothing happens.

The result is that they end up feeling rejected, not loved by God and certainly not elected by Him. They become enslaved and in bondage to an untruth!


Many believe in election but not in that way. But, some do and there is the problem. If one person has been lost to election, where is God's free gift in grace in that?

I honestly believe that any belief that can end up in a negative, is not of God!

 

[Emily Ruth]

Some good points Emily!

I too call your, "crying out" as a "free will" choice, you know "call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved'.

Oh, I believe that God initiated your moment in time, that He knocks on you door first, but you had to respond and open that door to your heart.

If God said that Jesus died for all and all sins and that God reconcilled the whole world unto himself, So, isn't it true that God must knock on everyones heart. Unfortunately, only a few open the door!

I couldn't agree more with David Hunt!
For me, Hunt is talking about the negative side of Election Theology. Here's why, and no one can't tell me that this hasn't happened before:

A person searching for truth, God, ends up in a wonderful church.
In that church, this person is taught saved by election only. The premise is God elects you to be saved and then gives you faith.


So the person waits, goes to church, reads the Bible and prays.
Be good they say, keep working hard and it will come but, in this person's mind, nothing happens.

The result is that they end up feeling rejected, not loved by God and certainly not elected by Him. They become enslaved and in bondage to an untruth!


Many believe in election but not in that way. But, some do and there is the problem. If one person has been lost to election, where is God's free gift in grace in that?

I honestly believe that any belief that can end up in a negative, is not of God!

More great points! Thank you.

I honestly think that those who hold to the doctrine of election are trying to put God into the same confines that man is in and He is not.

He is outside of time. He knows who chooses Him and who doesn't

I also think that some scriptures they speak of regarding predestination are about specific people who actually were predestined but that does not broad brush apply to all of mankind or it negates free will.

Jesus was clearly predestined for a specific purpose and arguments could be made that others were too - such as John the Baptist and Samson.

But how do you tell a seriously abused child that God chose those parents for them and predestined the abuse but that the same child is supposed to believe that God is the definition of love.

Like Dave Hunt's book title, "What love is this?"
Even a child rejects that kind of logic and no amount of spin can change their mind without painting God as a cosmic monster and that is not love at all.

I finally learned that there is one thing a perfectly soverign God wants more than anything else - rather than dictating who spends eternity with Him - that people come to them of their own free will and when He sees that their heart is sincere enough to live their lives with their focus on eternity and His love rather than this world and self, then He knows that they will be there becasue they want to and there is no greater love than that.

It is like a young girl who longs to hear her boyfriend tell her he loves her and she pesters him to do so and finally he says it. But because she practically demanded him to do so - the words really had no meaning. If God demands that we spend eternity with Him and we have no choice in the matter - it really is a cosmic farce.

A friend once asked me "Can the creation be more compassionate than the creator?" Of course the answer is no and that tells me all I need to know about God's true heart and that free will is the only way He wants people with Him for eternity.

If it was about a duck duck goose game where he created robots and no choices were involved then this whole human tragedy is pointless and He could have just created those He wanted and be done with it.

The church I grew up in was huge. Over 6000 members and 18+ pastors. They even called themselves the frozen chosen. While they say it as God's doctrine of election and nothing could change it - so their salvation was 'frozen' - others saw it as people who were still dead in their sins and living a life of cold indifference to sin because they never died to self, never humbled themselves, and never yielded their will to Him in a life changing experience.

 

[Hekuran]

Interesting thread. It is helpful to see these issues discussed in light of pastoral concerns rather that theological point scoring.

My comment here would be that there is more than one way to fall our of the Election/Free will tree.

In our eagerness to have everything neatly explained, there can be a tendency to oversimplify things or move to one extreme or another. The accounts and testimonies show how damaging this can be.

Just this week I talked about Ephesians 1 with a group of boys in our church. One of them concluded that "Even before God made us, he made us good." It has taken me quite a while to appreciate how powerful and inspiring that summary is. Certainly the boys I work with, who are all vulnerable in one way or another, found it a comfort

I find joy and peace and grace in the doctrine of election, knowing that my salvation is secure because God chose me before I chose him, and he loved me before I loved him.

But in the Bible there is absolutely no hint anywhere (tell me if I am wrong) that this limits human freedom or responsibility. The choices we make are real, and we must answer for our actions.

If election is understood in such a way that people feel frozen, something has gone wrong. I cannot find an adequate way to explain why the doctrine of election makes me feel liberated and empowered, but it does.

 

[RJ]

Interesting thread. It is helpful to see these issues discussed in light of pastoral concerns rather that theological point scoring.

My comment here would be that there is more than one way to fall our of the Election/Free will tree.

In our eagerness to have everything neatly explained, there can be a tendency to oversimplify things or move to one extreme or another. The accounts and testimonies show how damaging this can be.

Just this week I talked about Ephesians 1 with a group of boys in our church. One of them concluded that "Even before God made us, he made us good." It has taken me quite a while to appreciate how powerful and inspiring that summary is. Certainly the boys I work with, who are all vulnerable in one way or another, found it a comfort

I find joy and peace and grace in the doctrine of election, knowing that my salvation is secure because God chose me before I chose him, and he loved me before I loved him.

But in the Bible there is absolutely no hint anywhere (tell me if I am wrong) that this limits human freedom or responsibility. The choices we make are real, and we must answer for our actions.

If election is understood in such a way that people feel frozen, something has gone wrong. I cannot find an adequate way to explain why the doctrine of election makes me feel liberated and empowered, but it does.

There is some good points here.
One thing for sure, until we are "Face to Face", will we totally understand everything.

The one thing that confuses me about the "only Election" vs. Choice, is something that we all experience as Christians.

We would all agree that the Spirit of God lives in us right.
But still none of us are perfect right, we don't allow God to work through us 24/7 right?

I don't know about anyone else but when I have those times that I try to work things out on my own, is that my free will choice or God's?

Why would God elect me to have free will?

 

[rojoloco]

We would all agree that the Spirit of God lives in us right.
But still none of us are perfect right, we don't allow God to work through us 24/7 right?

I don't know about anyone else but when I have those times that I try to work things out on my own, is that my free will choice or God's?

This is actually spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 where it speaks of fire. We do many kinds of works. Those works which are based on our own doing are works that will burn away in the fires of judgment. Only the works prompted by the Spirit will remain. They are described as being of even higher quality than gold. When we do things on our own, we fail. The only way to please God in our works is by Him working through us. The only way for Him to work through us is after He has regenerated us and given us a new nature in Christ. We are still bound by our nature but our nature screams for Christ and good works through him instead of temporary works than will burn away as dross.

 

[rojoloco]

The doctrine of the elect is, IMHO, a doctrine of men limited to their 4 dimensions and human wisdom. It ignores a great deal of clear scriptures about choice.

I have to wholeheartedly disagree. Many places in Scripture describe wonderful results if only we make a choice. However, nowhere in Scripture says man is actually capable of making that choice. On the flip side, there are numerous places in Scripture where it says man cannot make those choices of their own initiative. The place where many people err in theology is by assuming one must have the choice out of necessity otherwise the options listed would be pointless. However, the correct stance is not in looking for valid options but rather a Light that shows our depravity and total inability.

 

[spirit1st]

been a little over a year ago!
I asked the LORD! What takes place when our flesh body and its mind die?
He said, The things we did out of LOVE go with our Spirits mind and all the other thoughts go with the body and are destroyed with the earth!
That is why , after we die we remember our Moms and DADS !

WE do Everything As UNTO the LORD and for HIS Glory and Honor or its worthless!
Everything we do Must be Out of LOVE and in Faith!
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.


2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2Ti 4:5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.


1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Some think LOVE allows everything , No it does not allow evil to be with them or around them!
We preach the gospel to them , if they refuse to accept Our Lord we move on!

Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

 

[Emily Ruth]

This is actually spoken of in 1 Cor 3 where it speaks of fire. We do many kinds of works. Those works which are based on our own doing are works that will burn away in the fires of judgment. Only the works prompted by the Spirit will remain. They are described as being of even higher quality than gold. When we do things on our own, we fail. The only way to please God in our works is by Him working through us. The only way for Him to work through us is after He has regenerated us and given us a new nature in Christ. We are still bound by our nature but our nature screams for Christ and good works through him instead of temporary works than will burn away as dross.

In my humble opinion, you just clearly showed how the human mind works in rationalizing what it does not understand. Just because we cannot fully reconcile the conflicts - does not mean that we have to squeeze it into a box and force the answer.

God is outside of time and He already knows those who used their free will to choose Him. He also works in our lives providentially to assist, just as He did/does in Israel.

So we see His foreknowledge in many of those scriptures.

But I think the one that clearly shows God's will being usurped by man's will is in this one:

Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

And in this scripture - it clearly shows that those who perish did so because they made a choice to reject the truth:
2 Thes 2
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.