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New Member
I still don't see any scriptures that point to it being a post-trib rapture?
If you read it you will notice first of all there is no scripture that points to pre trib second the BIble is clear as mentioned in previouse post that when God comes back next time there will be none alive left on earth. and the saved will leave earth. trib happens befor the 1000 years and Jesus comes back to begin the 1000 years. I think if you read the whole pst its clear there is no pre trib I dont know how it could be made more clear. sorry

It's not really pointed out in all its context in any one scripture its the whole untiy of the Bible's teachings on the subject that is why the post is so long when you put it all togethter then its clear there is not pre trib rapture once more the total lack of evidence in any way of a pretrib rapture should say something. blessings
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New Member
An anecdote to supplement Cody's post:
The famous evangelist Mr. Moody was once accosted by a drunk man staggering and weaving across the street in a pitiful condition. The drunk man recognised Mr. Moody and very exhuberantely called out and said "Mr. Moody don't you remmember me? I was 'saved' by you in your campaign."
Mr. Moody looked him up & down and said - 'Quite right, it does seem that you were saved by me. Had the Lord Jesus saved you, you would have been in a much different condition!'
New Member
When do you believe that I Thessalonians 4:13-17 takes place? Please give scripture support.
Im not quite sure what your asking here. but clearly its talking about the second coming of Jesus.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

notice here that this is another refrence of the promised second comming that we wait for where we in the words of 1 Ths "meet in the air".

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Note Jesus will remain in heaven untill all is decided then He will return to restore all things.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Notice again that those who do not get teh mark of the beast arre in heaven with Christ as he promised "you will be there with me also" although the rest of mankind are dead and dont come to life untill the end of the thousand years. notice this takes place at the first resurrection. So if only dead on earth and living in heaven then how can there be a tribulation after the resurrection mentioned in 1 Thes.

Jeremiah says that on the day of Jesus' return all the wicked will be slain in correlation with Revelation.

Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

every eye shall see same as what we are told by the angel when Jesus left

ct 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus will come the second time and when He does that will be the end of our time to chose Him now is the acceptible time our second chance is now. when He comes the world will have been judged for or against and appropriatly delt with. then those of us who are saved in His grace will go to heaven and everyone who is left other than Satan and his angels will be killed then and there and satan will be stuck here for 1000 years with nothing to do but await his punnishment then while we are partakers in seeing why those who are not there arent and why we are. then after all is delt with we will return to this earth and the second resurrection the one Revelation says we do not want part in becasue it leads to the second death which Jesus also warned of when here on earth. then all will be made new amen blessings I hope this helps.
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New Member
Originally Posted by Chad
Christians can lose salvation if they walk away from GOD. That's about as simple and basic as one can possibly put it. As long as you are obedient to GOD and believe Christ as Savior, your salvation is secured as GOD promised.

St. John 6: 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will NOT BLOT OUT his name out of the book of life...
New Member
Originally Posted by Chad
Christians can lose salvation if they walk away from GOD. That's about as simple and basic as one can possibly put it. As long as you are obedient to GOD and believe Christ as Savior, your salvation is secured as GOD promised.

St. John 6: 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will NOT BLOT OUT his name out of the book of life...
Often verses like these are used to put some condition on salvation but I think Bible quite clearly teaches us what the overcoming means.

It's about Faith and becoming Born again christian.

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

There's different kind of overcoming such as overcoming the wicked one (his devices i believe):

1Jn 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Or overcoming evil with good:

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

But we have already overcome because of our faith:

1Jn 4:3-4 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (4) Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

So Salvation is overcoming by being born again...

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Also we are born from incorruptible seed which means salvation can't be lost:

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The discples who were first with Jesus werent born again , Jesus hadnt even rosen from the dead yet. But after He did every man had change to believe in Him as savior and by so be born again.
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New Member
The Disciples knew there Rewards , Before they were Born -Again! No one was Born of God until The day of Pentecost! That when the Holy Ghost had been sent back from Jesus who had entered New Jerusalem!
Salvation [Eternal LIFE] Starts for Each of us when we get the New spirit [New Creature HE makes us] The New Creature CANNOT SIN !
Our new spirit is Perfect [sinless] We All still live in Imperfect bodies! They are Never perfect and will be never perfect !

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Our spirit is life , because of righteousness! He gave us a New Perfect [clean] Spirit! This New Spirit He has given each of His Holy Children is Made in the Very Image of his Son Jesus Christ! We in our Spirit man have the same type Mind and Nature as our Savior JESUS CHRIST!
Did our LORD SIN? of course Not! We have the same mind and nature in our spirit man. Could we with the same mind and nature Sin? of course Not!

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Our new spirit hates the evil of this world! It Does not want SEX or anything of this World !It Only wants to Please our LORD JESUS !

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Our Spirit HATES Sin , just as Our LORD hated Sin !

We Do Not hear it Groan, But the LORD hears it!

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Our Spirit cannot break the law of Moses! It under the law of JESUS CHRIST!

Love and Faith!

These are the Eternal laws Our Father writes in our Heart!

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. [That is in our spirit man!]

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

He puts a measure of Faith in all mankind So everyone could be Saved [BORN OF GOD]

Many are called to be , but few will become the elect!

most of those called fall away!

Those born -again are Kept by Him!

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

He does not impute sin to the new creature [new spirit man]
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

The new mad has it own mind !It just like our LORDS mind!
This flesh body with its flesh mind die and rot away !Gone forever more !
We get New Heavenly bodies just like our LORDS!

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

nd it doth not yet appear what we shall be: Meaning it nothing we see now here!

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament;

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

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