Roles of Men and Women

[amadeus2]

As the natural women is to receive the seed of the man to bear natural children, so is the spiritual woman to receive the spiritual seed of man to bear spiritual children. Consider in this Paul's written words:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

There is a male role and a female role. In the Church, the male is the presenter of the Word (the seed via the preacher or testifier, etc.) and the female is the Church that listens "silently" and receives. Any natural man or natural women who silently listens and receives is the spiritual woman. Any natural man or natural woman who presents the Word is the spiritual man. Jesus was the Man and all of the listeners were the Woman. Jesus is the Head while the Church is the Body (of Christ).

Mary the natural mother of Jesus fits into this pattern as well. God is the Father and Mary is the Mother. The offspring is of the kind that we are intended to have... God is the perfect Father. Mary is human, but unspoiled by a flawed man.

In the "real" world of churches, the preacher when he is presenting the Word is as the Father [the spiritual Man], but actually, as we know, he misses the mark many times in many places. But... the same is true of the Woman who is supposed to listen and receive silently, but actually is too often not silent and is critical even when the Preacher is not missing it. Error exists on both parts but an ideal pattern does exist if we are able to see it and to replicate it. God through His Son has provided a Way.

As to the entrance of sin, consider this: We know that sin is a result of man (male and/or female) having carnal possibilities. Without God, those carnal possibilities have their way... the ways of men or the way of the flesh. When the forbidden fruit was eaten they, both of them, died (not after 900 some years, but forthwith, immediately) to God. The hedge around the "world", which was them (they were the "world"), was gone. They were no longer of the Father in His protective enclosure (under His covering):

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Jesus brought back the possibility of "whosoever will" having God's hedge around them.

 

[B-A-C]

I have to admit some parts of the OP lost me. I'm not sure what some of that has to do with gender roles.

I believe God created men with certain roles, and women with certain roles. Because of women's liberation
and other things, much of what God intended the family to be like has gotten lost.

Men should be men, and women should be women. Of course homosexuality is all the rage these days.

CCN posted an article yesterday on "Gender fluidity" What does 'gender-fluid' mean? - CNN.com
About how we do not have to always be one gender just because we were born that way. We can go back and forth
if we want to. There are even some "Christians" who believe this. "In case God made a mistake with our gender when He made us."

Here in Washington state, (I also believe in New York state) we now have non-gender bathrooms in all public
buildings. Many do not have locks on them. So if you are transgendered, or even you merely "relate" as being
a certain sex (no matter what biological sex you truly are) you can share the bathroom with any person of the
opposite sex and it's illegal to ask them to leave or lock them out.

We have women policemen, firemen, soldiers, fighters, and even a woman running for president.
All liberal/conservative republican/democrat arguments aside, I don't see how any Bible believing Christian
could vote for a woman president.

We also have men who are content letting their wives support them while they stay at home.
We have feminine men, cross-dressers, and of course homosexuals. - All of these things are addressed in
the Bible, but somehow something we now call "today's society, or sophistication, or meterosexual,
or diversity" has become the in vogue way to be.

I don't believe this is what God ever intended.

 

[amadeus2]

Actually my OP had little directly to do with today's sexual situation, at least it did not initially intentionally address that problem of men. Someone had asked me to clarify or amplify my understanding. I see that there is a carnal understanding according to ways of our flesh and there is a spiritual understanding according to the Way of God. What are to do in the natural as physical men and women, and what we are to in the spiritual as a part of the Body of Christ are connected, but they are not the same. I won't try to explain it further because I really don't necessarily have all of the answers. I will try to respond to any specific questions, but we will likely need lots of help from God on this.

 

[Bendito]

As the natural women is to receive the seed of the man to bear natural children, so is the spiritual woman to receive the spiritual seed of man to bear spiritual children. Consider in this Paul's written words:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

There is a male role and a female role. In the Church, the male is the presenter of the Word (the seed via the preacher or testifier, etc.) and the female is the Church that listens "silently" and receives. Any natural man or natural women who silently listens and receives is the spiritual woman. Any natural man or natural woman who presents the Word is the spiritual man. Jesus was the Man and all of the listeners were the Woman. Jesus is the Head while the Church is the Body (of Christ).

Mary the natural mother of Jesus fits into this pattern as well. God is the Father and Mary is the Mother. The offspring is of the kind that we are intended to have... God is the perfect Father. Mary is human, but unspoiled by a flawed man.

In the "real" world of churches, the preacher when he is presenting the Word is as the Father [the spiritual Man], but actually, as we know, he misses the mark many times in many places. But... the same is true of the Woman who is supposed to listen and receive silently, but actually is too often not silent and is critical even when the Preacher is not missing it. Error exists on both parts but an ideal pattern does exist if we are able to see it and to replicate it. God through His Son has provided a Way.

As to the entrance of sin, consider this: We know that sin is a result of man (male and/or female) having carnal possibilities. Without God, those carnal possibilities have their way... the ways of men or the way of the flesh. When the forbidden fruit was eaten they, both of them, died (not after 900 some years, but forthwith, immediately) to God. The hedge around the "world", which was them (they were the "world"), was gone. They were no longer of the Father in His protective enclosure (under His covering):

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Jesus brought back the possibility of "whosoever will" having God's hedge around them.

Wow! Amadeus...What about women preachers, prophets, healers etc? The bible has several women in positions like that. The bible does not say women are to keep silent and sit on their hands....Nowhere in the bible does it say that women are to be passive receivers...
This entire doctrine is based on one single piece of one single verse in the bible....Its taken completely out of context and does nothing but cripple women in their God given roles and ministries.

 

[B-A-C]

LOL, talk about a sore subject. We have a couple of generations of women's liberation behind now. We have gotten so used
to women being in "control" that we think it's OK in the Bible. Women aren't second class citizens to God. Men aren't more important, but they definitely do have different roles.

This is far from being based on one single scripture. There are many verses that support this.

1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
1 Tim 2:11; A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1 Tim 2:12; But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1 Tim 2:13; For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1 Tim 2:14; And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Tim 2:15; But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Woman can be involved in ministry yes, They can teach children, other women and many other things. But a woman
should not be a head pastor. Any are of ministry she is involved in should be under authority of a man. Yes that's "chauvinistic" to say, but it's Biblical. You just read it.

1 Cor 11:3; But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
1 Cor 11:7; For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
1 Cor 11:8; For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
1 Cor 11:9; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.
1 Cor 11:10; Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels

1 Cor 14:34; The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1 Cor 14:35; If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church

1 Pet 3:1; In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
1 Pet 3:2; as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
1 Pet 3:5; For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands;
1 Pet 3:6; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

1 Pet 3:7; You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

Men also have responsibilities and roles to their wives. We can talk about those things if you like.. but they definitely
have a lower hierarchy in respect to men.

Eph 5:22; Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Eph 5:24; But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything

Anyone who says all of this is only based on one scripture taken out of context doesn't know the Bible very well.

Col 3:18; Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

The Bible doesn't teach women's liberation. It teaches the authority of a man over his wife.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@amadeus2
A little all over the place on this one brother?

If I weren't at work I'd pose the questions that readily came to mind as I read it.

It's as if I see Mormon & Catholic type concepts jumping out at me in your post. It's my initial impression, so, I'm sure to be mistaken.

With the Love of Christ Jesus dear brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Bendito]

LOL, talk about a sore subject. We have a couple of generations of women's liberation behind now. We have gotten so used
to women being in "control" that we think it's OK in the Bible. Women aren't second class citizens to God. Men aren't more important, but they definitely do have different roles.

This is far from being based on one single scripture. There are many verses that support this.

1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
1 Tim 2:11; A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1 Tim 2:12; But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1 Tim 2:13; For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1 Tim 2:14; And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Tim 2:15; But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Woman can be involved in ministry yes, They can teach children, other women and many other things. But a woman
should not be a head pastor. Any are of ministry she is involved in should be under authority of a man. Yes that's "chauvinistic" to say, but it's Biblical. You just read it.

1 Cor 11:3; But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
1 Cor 11:7; For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
1 Cor 11:8; For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
1 Cor 11:9; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.
1 Cor 11:10; Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels

1 Cor 14:34; The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1 Cor 14:35; If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church

1 Pet 3:1; In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
1 Pet 3:2; as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
1 Pet 3:5; For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands;
1 Pet 3:6; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

1 Pet 3:7; You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

Men also have responsibilities and roles to their wives. We can talk about those things if you like.. but they definitely
have a lower hierarchy in respect to men.

Eph 5:22; Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Eph 5:24; But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything

Anyone who says all of this is only based on one scripture taken out of context doesn't know the Bible very well.

Col 3:18; Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

The Bible doesn't teach women's liberation. It teaches the authority of a man over his wife.

Did you notice? These scriptures talk about two different things.....1- Women speaking or preaching in church and 2 = A woman's role in a marriage.. Which one do you want to talk about?

I choose the original subject....Let's look at 1 Cor 14 Paul was talking in 'Responsa' Which means he was answering questions...Maybe read the two chapters previous and see what I mean. One of the questions was about women keeping silent in the church...Paul repeated the 'question' and answered it below...He said "36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or is endowed with the Spirit, let him acknowledge that what I am writing you is a command of the Lord. 38 But if someone doesn’t recognize this, then let him remain unrecognized."
1 Corinthians 14:36-38 (CJB)
Another thing I see here is this; "As the Torah says..." So this guy was quoting law to Paul and the law was fulfilled....They were now under a different covenant, not the old old one...

In the Timothy verses you quoted....vs 12 is the main one, the key verse....12 I do not allow an isha (wife) either to have teaching authority over or to have hishtaltut (domination, taking control) over [her] man, but to be in silence. The wife is not to take authority over the husband, or to take a position of control over him....No problem...Few wives even think of that. It does not say, though, that a woman cannot teach in church....
I personally know several woman preachers, all under a mans covering....One of them is the main pastor and her husband is in a supporting role in the ministry...She is still subject to him. She seeks his leading, advice and other necessaries. Even in his supporting role he is the husband...and she is his wife.
Now understand....I am a rabid anti feminist! I hate that ungodly way of thinking. But I am all for a woman taking her place in our world of Grace....

 

[amadeus2]

Wow! Amadeus...What about women preachers, prophets, healers etc? The bible has several women in positions like that. The bible does not say women are to keep silent and sit on their hands....Nowhere in the bible does it say that women are to be passive receivers...
This entire doctrine is based on one single piece of one single verse in the bible....Its taken completely out of context and does nothing but cripple women in their God given roles and ministries.

You apparently did not understand my position at all. I am not against women preachers. Quite the contrary. When my wife and I were first drawn in to the Lord and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1976 it was under the ministering of two female evangelists.

 

[amadeus2]

@amadeus2
A little all over the place on this one brother?

If I weren't at work I'd pose the questions that readily came to mind as I read it.

It's as if I see Mormon & Catholic type concepts jumping out at me in your post. It's my initial impression, so, I'm sure to be mistaken.

With the Love of Christ Jesus dear brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

My focus in the OP was on the spiritual in which I probably differ from many other believers, but it may be hard for me to express clearly.

I don't know much about the Mormons but my take spiritually on the spiritual roles of people in the Church (the Church being God's people rather than any organized groups which call themselves churches) is quite different than that of the Catholics. I may think I know how would I act and react in most cases, but the reality of a situation may be very different from any hypothetical situation. We need to pay attention to what God is saying all of the time.

 

[Bendito]

You apparently did not understand my position at all. I am not against women preachers. Quite the contrary. When my wife and I were first drawn in to the Lord and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 1976 it was under the ministering of two female evangelists.

Apparently I did misunderstand you my friend....I'm sorry

 

[LordKnows]

LOL, talk about a sore subject. We have a couple of generations of women's liberation behind now. We have gotten so used
to women being in "control" that we think it's OK in the Bible. Women aren't second class citizens to God. Men aren't more important, but they definitely do have different roles.

This is far from being based on one single scripture. There are many verses that support this.

1 Tim 2:10; but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
1 Tim 2:11; A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1 Tim 2:12; But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1 Tim 2:13; For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1 Tim 2:14; And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
1 Tim 2:15; But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

Woman can be involved in ministry yes, They can teach children, other women and many other things. But a woman
should not be a head pastor. Any are of ministry she is involved in should be under authority of a man. Yes that's "chauvinistic" to say, but it's Biblical. You just read it.

1 Cor 11:3; But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
1 Cor 11:7; For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
1 Cor 11:8; For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
1 Cor 11:9; for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake.
1 Cor 11:10; Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels

1 Cor 14:34; The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1 Cor 14:35; If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church

1 Pet 3:1; In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
1 Pet 3:2; as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.
1 Pet 3:5; For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hoped in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands;
1 Pet 3:6; just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.

1 Pet 3:7; You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.

Men also have responsibilities and roles to their wives. We can talk about those things if you like.. but they definitely
have a lower hierarchy in respect to men.

Eph 5:22; Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
Eph 5:23; For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
Eph 5:24; But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything

Anyone who says all of this is only based on one scripture taken out of context doesn't know the Bible very well.

Col 3:18; Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

The Bible doesn't teach women's liberation. It teaches the authority of a man over his wife.

I agree with you here BAC - I personally can not seem to take a woman pastor as seriously as I do a male. She may be right on point but to me she's still a woman & I am unable to take females seriously when it comes to pastoring a church assembly.


Great topic. Great points too

 

[Christ4Ever]

As the natural women is to receive the seed of the man to bear natural children, so is the spiritual woman to receive the spiritual seed of man to bear spiritual children. Consider in this Paul's written words:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

God is good dear brother. He had me hold off responding fully on my initial reading of this. The Mormons do believe in Spirit Children as offspring of Heavenly parents which was my initial reaction to what you had written above. I was allowed if but for a moment to see that it was not what you were suggesting.

Mary the natural mother of Jesus fits into this pattern as well. God is the Father and Mary is the Mother. The offspring is of the kind that we are intended to have... God is the perfect Father. Mary is human, but unspoiled by a flawed man.

Please explain further what you mean by the above highlighted item or better yet delete it. This falls too closely to a Catholic concept that draws a direct line to Mariology. Which is another subject entirely and doesn't need to be included here.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[amadeus2]

Mary the natural mother of Jesus fits into this pattern as well. God is the Father and Mary is the Mother. The offspring is of the kind that we are intended to have... God is the perfect Father. Mary is human, but unspoiled by a flawed man.

Mary was a good woman who believed God, but she was not eternally sinless as the Catholics teach. They also teach that she remained virgin all of her natural life, which I also do not believe. She was a woman who waited to consummate her marriage to Joseph until after the birth of Jesus... she did consummate it.

Mary, the natural mother of Jesus was there with the 11 apostles and others in the upper room to receive the precious gift which she along with the rest really needed. Without that gift no one, not even Mary, could enter through the Gate and partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

Mary was special but are not most mothers special to their children? Being special in the eyes of God does not make a person an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer. It does not give a person salvation... not even Mary!

A number of people in the OT were types of shadows of Jesus. The types and shadows were good, but in the end all of them had fallen short in walk of the walk that Jesus walked.

Mary was a type or shadow of the Church in that she with God's help gave birth to the man, Jesus. The Church as a whole should with God's help be giving birth to and nourishing spiritual babies so that they will become more like Jesus.

 

[Bendito]

Mary was a good woman who believed God, but she was not eternally sinless as the Catholics teach. They also teach that she remained virgin all of her natural life, which I also do not believe. She was a woman who waited to consummate her marriage to Joseph until after the birth of Jesus... she did consummate it.

Mary, the natural mother of Jesus was there with the 11 apostles and others in the upper room to receive the precious gift which she along with the rest really needed. Without that gift no one, not even Mary, could enter through the Gate and partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

Mary was special but are not most mothers special to their children? Being special in the eyes of God does not make a person an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer. It does not give a person salvation... not even Mary!

A number of people in the OT were types of shadows of Jesus. The types and shadows were good, but in the end all of them had fallen short in walk of the walk that Jesus walked.

Mary was a type or shadow of the Church in that she with God's help gave birth to the man, Jesus. The Church as a whole should with God's help be giving birth to and nourishing spiritual babies so that they will become more like Jesus.

Don't forget that Jesus had brothers and sisters....So yeah...Mary did not stay a virgin all her life....Good for her!!