Revelation 5:15-18 & Revelation 7:13-14 and 'nakedness'

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@B-A-C said:-
Revelation 3:15-18
1) What do you think the nakedness of the people in this church (who are still alive in this passage) means?
2) What are the white robes they need?

Revelation 7:13-14
1) “These who are clothed in the white robes," who are they?
2) and where have they come from?”

Hello B-A-C,

' I know thy works,
.. that thou art neither cold nor hot:
.... I would thou wert cold or hot.
...... So then because thou art lukewarm,
........ and neither cold nor hot,
.......... I will spue thee out of my mouth.'
(Rev 3:15)

*These verses explain clearly the condition of things among the remnant of the Jews in that yet future day.
* The same result of unfaithfulness in not keeping the word and commandments of God is spoken of in Leviticus 18:25 & 28, where the people are told that for such disobedience, the very land should spew them out. (Compare Hosea 4:6-7).

'Because thou sayest, I am rich,
.. and increased with goods,
.... and have need of nothing;
...... and knowest not that thou art wretched, (Hosea 2:11; 5:15)
........ and miserable,.. (Haggai 1:6)
.......... and poor,
............ and blind,
.............. and naked:' ..(Hosea 2:3-10)
(Rev 3:17)

* To understand this stage of Israel's condition, the whole of Hosea 2-5; 12:8 should be read. Compare also Haggai 1:6; Jeremiah 13:25-26; Jeremiah 5:27; Zechariah 11:5 & 13-18.

' I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, (Malachi 3:3; Hosea 2:8; Haggai 2:8)
.. that thou mayest be rich;
.... and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed,
...... and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; (Jeremiah 13:25-26 & Hosea 2:3)
........ and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.' (Isaiah 59:10)
(Rev 3:18)

* When are the members of the Church, where all is of grace and gifted to us, counselled 'to buy' anything of God?
* I do not believe that the Church is the subject of these verses.
* The white raiment are for those who are worthy and overcome, as can be seen in Revelation 3:4, and fulfilled in Revelation 19:7-8.

---------------

'And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes?
and whence came they?
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.
And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes,
'and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
(Rev 7:13-14)

* I believe both questions are answered within the text, 'These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'. This is a, 'standing,' of works and not of grace: so cannot relate to the Church; for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are washed, justified, and sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11). Whereas, these people have washed their own robes and made them white.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 3:14; “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:
Rev 3:15; I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
Rev 3:16; ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will
spit you out of My mouth.

These verses explain clearly the condition of things among the remnant of the Jews in that yet future day.

Why would you think the church of Laodicea (or any of the 7 churches of Asia for that matter) is a Jewish church?
This is a Gentile church in a Gentile city, in a Gentile country. Just like the church of Ephesus which also one of the 7 churches.

* I do not believe that the Church is the subject of these verses.

.and yet all 7 letters start off.. "to the angel of the church". Why would think this isn't for/to the church?

This is a, 'standing,' of works and not of grace: so cannot relate to the Church

Again.. all 7 letters start off "to the angel of the church". Specifically "the church".

Of course none of this says it to/for the Jews, but even if it did... do you think there is a different dispensation for the Jews? Do they get saved differently from us?

 

[B-A-C]

This is a, 'standing,' of works and not of grace: so cannot relate to the Church; for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are washed, justified, and sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God.

This is a good example of someones theology driving their interpretation of the Bible, rather than taking the Bible at face value and letting what it says drive your theology.

James 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. ................ The demons believe in Jesus, are they saved?
James 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

No where does the Bible say we will be judged by what we say we believe, but it does say we will be judged by our deeds.
Matt 16:27;
John 5:29;
John 8:39;
Acts 26:20; (specifically mentions Gentiles here)
Rom 2:5-6;
Rom 8:13;
2Cor 5:10; (specifically written to Gentiles)
2Tim 4:14;
Titus 1:16;
Titus 2:14;
Titus 3:8;
Titus 3:14;
Jude 1:15;
Rev 2:5;
Rev 2:22;

An entire parable about this leading up to Matt 25:30;
Another parable leading up to Matt 25:46;

 

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B-A-C said:-
This is a good example of someones theology driving their interpretation of the Bible, rather than taking the Bible at face value and letting what it says drive your theology.

Hello @B-A-C.

This remark is unfounded and unnecessary. It certainly does not encourage me to continue to discuss this with you further.

So I will leave you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Chris, @complete

I do not think our Brother was meaning to upset you personally in any way.
'tis a trial and i know that you know that the One Who grants us by Grace, His Grace, God's Grace, the blessedness of forgiveness and peace is able to mend matters between you.


Greetings B-A-C, @B-A-C

I do not think Chris was submitting a theological statement regarding her interpretation of the Bible but, as often she does, presents things for genuine discussion knowing that we are all capable of learning and growing together in the Grace of God in Jesus Christ the Lord, which i know you know.


Bless you both ....><>

Jesus is Lord

 

[Br. Bear]

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

a time to be born, and a time to die;​

a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;​

a time to kill, and a time to heal;​

a time to break down, and a time to build up;​

a time to weep, and a time to laugh;​

a time to mourn, and a time to dance;​

a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;​

a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;​

a time to get, and a time to lose;​

a time to keep, and a time to cast away;​

a time to rend, and a time to sew;​

a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;​

a time to love, and a time to hate;​

a time of war, and a time of peace.​

Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

 

[B-A-C]

This remark is unfounded and unnecessary. It certainly does not encourage me to continue to discuss this with you further.

As @Br. Bear said, it was not personally against you. But it does seem that whenever a substantial number of scriptures are given to refute something,
some people just leave. No scripture is given to back up their perspective. They just continue in their beliefs and refuse to discuss.

So I will leave you.

 

[B-A-C]

I do not think Chris was submitting a theological statement regarding her interpretation of the Bible but, as often she does, presents things for genuine discussion knowing that we are all capable of learning and growing together in the Grace of God in Jesus Christ the Lord, which i know you know.

I hope you are right. But I have been in some churches were you just hear things over and over again, until they are taken as doctrine. Then you confront someone about scripture to support it, they say you are attacking them.
From my perspective I am not attacking anyone personally, but rather I am attacking doctrine that has no scriptural support.

 

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'And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.'
(Rev 3:14-16)

Why would you think the church of Laodicea (or any of the 7 churches of Asia for that matter) is a Jewish church?
This is a Gentile church in a Gentile city, in a Gentile country. Just like the church of Ephesus which also one of the 7 churches.

Hello @B-A-C,

Please disregard my previous response.

The fact that the seven assemblies referred to in the book of Revelation are called 'churches' has naturally led readers to believe that they are such as those that we are familiar with within the Christian community. But are they? Look at the wording of the extract you have quoted to the Church at Laodicea for example, the atmosphere is not one of 'grace' as that reflected in the letters of Paul, but of 'works'. Within each one there are Church Offices and Expressions with which the Church is unfamiliar.

* There are those who believe that instead of seven assemblies we have seven stages of Church history. I do not believe this to be true.

* The word from which the word, 'Church', is translated is 'ecclesia', which means simply an 'assembly' of people called out from other people. It is used of Israel as distinct from other nations for example, for they are a people 'called out' and assembled from all other nations.

* One Church Office used in regard to these assemblies, which is totally unknown within the Christian Churches is that of, 'the angel of the church' (Revelation 2:1, 8, 12, 18). Though not known in the Christian Church, this office is one held within the Synagogue. He is the Leader of Divine worship, and the mouthpiece of the congregation. His duty is to offer up public prayer to God for the whole congregation. His title being appropriate because as the 'messenger of the assembly' he spoke to God for them.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 19:7; "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Rev 19:8; It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

 

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@B-A-C said:-
Revelation 3:15-18
1) What do you think the nakedness of the people in this church (who are still alive in this passage) means?
2) What are the white robes they need?

Complete said in reply#1
* I believe both questions are answered within the text, 'These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.'. This is a, 'standing,' of works and not of grace: so cannot relate to the Church; for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are washed, justified, and sanctified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11). Whereas, these people have washed their own robes and made them white.

Rev 19:7; "Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
Rev 19:8; It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Hello @B-A-C,

Yes, 'Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him'.

For He alone is worthy.