• Hi Guest!

    Please share Talk Jesus community on every platform you have to give conservatives an outlet and safe community to be apart of.

    Support This Community

    Thank You

  • Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 11,000 members today

    Register Log In

Resurrection

Member
@Hitch you've now offered ridicule, sarcasm and insult, but little evidence of thoughtful reading of the Bible.

If you are unable to follow through with your ideas, you can still speak with kindness and gentleness. These are, after all, fruits of the spirit.
And you read of your own choice. Whine to someone who cares .
 
Loyal
I'm still unclear what is meant by spiritually dead. Is is a metaphor, or is it describing in some literal way the death of a spirit?
I wonder what these verses mean to you?

Luke 9:60; But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."
Do you think the physically dead bury their dead?

Rom 6:4; Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:11; Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:13; and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Do you think these people were physically dead?

Rom 8:10; If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:13; for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
What does it mean to live by the Spirit? How is it "you will live" if you are already alive?

Eph 2:1; And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Do you think they were really physically dead?

Eph 2:5; even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Col 2:13; When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgression
What kind of death is it talking about here? What part of these people are "made alive together with Him".

1Tim 5:6; But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.
How can someone be dead while they are alive?

1Pet 3:18; For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
How is a spirit "made alive"? Was it alive before it was made alive?

==========================

Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

What is the second death? How is it different from the "first death"?

===========================

This is Christianity 101. Being alive in the Spirit. I've been in dozens of churches of several different denominations, but never been in one that didn't teach this.
 
Last edited:
Loyal
I wonder what these verses mean to you?

Luke 9:60; But He said to him, "Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God."
Do you think the physically dead bury their dead?

Rom 6:4; Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:11; Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:13; and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Do you think these people were physically dead?

Rom 8:10; If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:13; for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
What does it mean to live by the Spirit? How is it "you will live" if you are already alive?

Eph 2:1; And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Do you think they were really physically dead?

Eph 2:5; even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Col 2:13; When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgression
What kind of death is it talking about here? What part of these people are "made alive together with Him".

1Tim 5:6; But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.
How can someone be dead while they are alive?

1Pet 3:18; For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
How is a spirit "made alive"? Was it alive before it was made alive?

==========================

Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

What is the second death? How is it different from the "first death"?

===========================

This is Christianity 101. Being alive in the Spirit. I've been in dozens of churches of several different denominations, but never been in one that didn't teach this.
Answering all those questions properly is a whole days work

Can we stick with a single passage, Romans 8?

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.


There's two ways to live - live by the desires of the flesh, which leads to death, or by the spirit, which gives life. There's no need to shoehorn the idea of 'spiritually dead' into to this passage.
 
Active
I'm still unclear what is meant by spiritually dead. Is is a metaphor, or is it describing in some literal way the death of a spirit?
Hello @Hekuran,

The unbeliever is said to be dead in trespasses and sins. Not dead physically, but unable to receive the things which are of God, for they are foolishness unto him.

That is clear I think.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our lord and Head.
Chris
 
Loyal
Hello @Hekuran,

The unbeliever is said to be dead in trespasses and sins. Not dead physically, but unable to receive the things which are of God, for they are foolishness unto him.

That is clear I think.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our lord and Head.
Chris
Thanks, yes that makes sense - not being alive to the things of God or the ways of the spirit. John uses the language of blindness in a similar way. John 9 is a favourite passage of mine


Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

“Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."
 
Active
Hello @Hekuran,

There are those who speak of the warning of God to Adam, 'Thou shalt surely die', as being a 'spiritual' death: but the context does not support that; for eating of the tree of life would have meant that they lived for ever (Genesis 3:22) , That is why God had to place Cherubim and a flaming sword upon the entrance to the garden (Genesis 3:24), that Adam and Eve should not re-gain access to the tree of life , because sin had entered into them, and death by sin. For them to have lived for ever in that condition could not be contemplated (as the silence that fell at the end of verse 22 illustrates) .

Resurrection is now the only means by which everlasting life can be accessed: prior to the coming of the Lord for those who are His at His coming (1 Corinthians 15:23), for they will not see death, but will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Last edited:
Loyal
There's two ways to live - live by the desires of the flesh, which leads to death, or by the spirit, which gives life. There's no need to shoehorn the idea of 'spiritually dead' into to this passage.
No shoe-horning required. Every one of those verses says you can be dead and alive alive at the same time. How are people dead while they are alive?

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7; "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
John 3:8; "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."


You can be physically alive without being spiritually alive.

Rom 8:15; For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16; The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Not everyone receives a spirit of adoption as sons to the Father.
 
Loyal
Resurrection is now the only means by which everlasting life can be accessed: prior to the coming of the Lord for those who are His at His coming (1 Corinthians 15:23), for they will not see death, but will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.
Well, it won't be "prior" to His coming. It will be at His coming. But even the unsaved will be resurrected and live eternally. The difference is location.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
 
Active
Hello @Hekuran,

The unbeliever is said to be dead in trespasses and sins. Not dead physically, but unable to receive the things which are of God, for they are foolishness unto him.

That is clear I think.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our lord and Head.
Chris
Hi Chris,

Actually, the passage doesn't say he is unable to receive them. He actively refuses them. His not receiving is an active action on his part.
 
Active
No shoe-horning required. Every one of those verses says you can be dead and alive alive at the same time. How are people dead while they are alive?

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7; "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
John 3:8; "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."


You can be physically alive without being spiritually alive.

Rom 8:15; For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16; The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

Not everyone receives a spirit of adoption as sons to the Father.
The answer to your question is, figurative language. That's how one can be alive and dead at the same time.

Paul said, "I die daily". Did Paul physically die every day and then come back to life?. Did he die spiritually and then come back to life spiritually every day? Neither of those options are possible. The only possible answer is that he was speaking figuratively. Paul does this all through his writings. They're filled with figures of speech such as, metaphor, allegories, and abstract concepts. Even Peter who knew the Scriptures, (Jesus open his understanding of the Scriptures), said that some of what Paul wrote was hard to understand. If a man who had his understanding of the Scriptures personally opened by Jesus had trouble understanding Paul, why do Christians, 2000 years removed, who are reading someone's interpretation (translation), who live in a completely different culture, with a 21st century mindset, think they have a better understannding than Peter? If Peterbhad trouble understanding Paul, maybe we should stop and think maybe we do too.

Before one can claim man is spiritually alive or dead, one must prove that it is possible.
 
Active
Hello @Hekuran,

There are those who speak of the warning of God to Adam, 'Thou shalt surely die', as being a 'spiritual' death: but the context does not support that; for eating of the tree of life would have meant that they lived for ever (Genesis 3:22) , That is why God had to place Cherubim and a flaming sword upon the entrance to the garden (Genesis 3:24), that Adam and Eve should not re-gain access to the tree of life , because sin had entered into them, and death by sin. For them to have lived for ever in that condition could not be contemplated (as the silence that fell at the end of verse 22 illustrates) .

Resurrection is now the only means by which everlasting life can be accessed: prior to the coming of the Lord for those who are His at His coming (1 Corinthians 15:23), for they will not see death, but will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Hi Chris,

I agree. I would also point out that the death was in the flesh because God told Adam that he was dust and would return to dust. That speaks of the body. So, the claim that Adam not dying with 24 hours of God's statement means he died spiritually is without evidence and is proved wrong.
 
Active
Although resurrection to an immortal body remains yet a future event, it's possible
to obtain eternal life right now prior to the resurrection because eternal life pertains
to a separate aspect of existence, viz: eternal life isn't physical; it's supernatural.

Note the grammatical tense of the passage below: it's present tense rather than
future, indicating that eternal life can be had right now-- no delay and no waiting
period.

John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but
they have already passed from death into life.

According to that passage; people lacking eternal life are dead to God and in grave
danger of the sum of all fears.

Also; according to the passages below, people lacking eternal life are disconnected
from God's son, viz: they are not his sheep.

John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life

1John 5:11-12 . .God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So
whoever has God's son has the life; whoever does not have the life, does not have
His son.
_
 
Member
Although resurrection to an immortal body remains yet a future event, it's possible
to obtain eternal life right now prior to the resurrection because eternal life pertains
to a separate aspect of existence, viz: eternal life isn't physical; it's supernatural.

Note the grammatical tense of the passage below: it's present tense rather than
future, indicating that eternal life can be had right now-- no delay and no waiting
period.

John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but
they have already passed from death into life.

According to that passage; people lacking eternal life are dead to God and in grave
danger of the sum of all fears.

Also; according to the passages below, people lacking eternal life are disconnected
from God's son, viz: they are not his sheep.

John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life

1John 5:11-12 . .God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So
whoever has God's son has the life; whoever does not have the life, does not have
His son.
_
Yup. For the vast majority 'eternal life' comes well before the eternal state.
 
Active
Although resurrection to an immortal body remains yet a future event, it's possible
to obtain eternal life right now prior to the resurrection because eternal life pertains
to a separate aspect of existence, viz: eternal life isn't physical; it's supernatural.

Note the grammatical tense of the passage below: it's present tense rather than
future, indicating that eternal life can be had right now-- no delay and no waiting
period.

John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but
they have already passed from death into life.

According to that passage; people lacking eternal life are dead to God and in grave
danger of the sum of all fears.

Also; according to the passages below, people lacking eternal life are disconnected
from God's son, viz: they are not his sheep.

John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life

1John 5:11-12 . .God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So
whoever has God's son has the life; whoever does not have the life, does not have
His son.
_
Is it? Where does Scripture say it's not physical life? Could it be as Paul says, believers have a down payment on their inheritance? Consider a kid with a trust fund. Is he a millionaire? Yes. Does he possess that money? No. He has the promise of that money when certrain conditions are met.

How can Jesus say in one place a person has eternal life and in another say that eternal life is possessed in the age to come? We have to reconcile these passages. So, how could someone have eternal life now and yet get it in the coming age? The trust fund scenario I mentioned explains this. It also fits with the rest of Scripture. Paul said the Ephesians had the promise of the inheritance. He also said believers have the promise of life to come. All of this fits with the trust fund idea.

If we're going to claim it's something other than physical life we have to establish that such a thing is possible.
 
Loyal
eternal life isn't physical; it's supernatural.
If that's the case, why was it necessary for Jesus to go through natural death and to rise again physically? Why do the gospel writers make a point of Jesus preparing and eating meals? If eternal life is spiritual only, why wouldn't Jesus reappearing in spirit be sufficient?
 
Active
Although resurrection to an immortal body remains yet a future event, it's possible
to obtain eternal life right now prior to the resurrection because eternal life pertains
to a separate aspect of existence, viz: eternal life isn't physical; it's supernatural.

Note the grammatical tense of the passage below: it's present tense rather than
future, indicating that eternal life can be had right now-- no delay and no waiting
period.

John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but
they have already passed from death into life.

According to that passage; people lacking eternal life are dead to God and in grave
danger of the sum of all fears.

Also; according to the passages below, people lacking eternal life are disconnected
from God's son, viz: they are not his sheep.

John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life

1John 5:11-12 . .God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So
whoever has God's son has the life; whoever does not have the life, does not have
His son.
_
Hello @Beetow,

Yes, we have everlasting life now, it is the gift of God, but it is in the form of a promise now (2 Timothy 1:1): we cannot enter into it until this mortal shall have put on immortality, and this corruption put on incorruption, which takes place at the resurrection from the death, or at that day when Christ Jesus the risen Lord returns for His own as promised in 1 Corinthians 15:23, when they which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will experience that change in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, without tasting of death.

Regarding John 5:24 that you refer to, it needs to be read in it's context, for it's setting is in that yet future day :-

'Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'
(John 5:24-29)

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Active
For the vast majority 'eternal life' comes well before the eternal state.
I've taken the liberty to edit your comment just a little for a contrast.

"For the vast majority 'eternal life' comes well before the immortal state."

In other words: eternal life and immortality are not synonyms. For example: Jesus
had eternal life prior to his crucifixion (John 5:26 & 1John 1:1-2) but he didn't have
immortality until after he rose from the dead. (Rom 6:9)

It's not unusual to encounter ordinary-looking folk on a daily basis and be unaware
they have eternal life.

John 3:8 . . The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you
cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of
the Spirit.
_
 
Member
Hello @Beetow,

Yes, we have everlasting life now, it is the gift of God, but it is in the form of a promise now (2 Timothy 1:1): we cannot enter into it until this mortal shall have put on immortality, and this corruption put on incorruption, which takes place at the resurrection from the death, or at that day when Christ Jesus the risen Lord returns for His own as promised in 1 Corinthians 15:23, when they which are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will experience that change in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, without tasting of death.

Regarding John 5:24 that you refer to, it needs to be read in it's context, for it's setting is in that yet future day :-

'Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is,
when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'
(John 5:24-29)

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
The hour is coming, and now is,
when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Jesus Christ
Regarding John 5:24 that you refer to, it needs to be read in it's context, for it's setting is in that yet future day :- says Chris
Easy choice here.
 
Member
How is that possible?
By resting on the Word of God AKA Jesus Christ

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.



And John: These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I cant see how to make it any clearer Butch.
 
Top