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Rapture and Exodus..the Children of Zion

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Introduction

Revelation chapter 12...

The Woman and Manchild. Rapture and Exodus of the Children of Zion...

The Woman and the Manchild of Revelation chapter 12...a Rapture, and a modern day Exodus?, the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...and the protection of the Woman in the wilderness (ie: modern day Exodus)...For the
Elects sake, God will shorten the days to send his angels to gather them...and lead the Woman into the wilderness...Mid-Trib. Why did Jesus say he would shorten the days? He said he would do it for the Elects sake...who are the Elect? His people, both Gentile and Jew.

What does he shorten the days for? For the gathering of his people, the Elect. Not for his Second Coming... His Second Coming is to destroy the Antichrist and his Armys...if he didnt send his angels first, the Antichrist, or man of sin, would destroy the Jews...Hitler wouldnt be able to hold a candle to this. Thats why we see the Woman, being protected from Satan mid point
into the Tribulation, after she gave birth to the Manchild that Satan tried to destroy.


Nowhere in bible prophecy was Jesus Christ ever refered to as a Manchild, i cant stress this enough... because most people use that interpretation. If Jesus is the Manchild of Rev 12 then we have a simbolic Woman giving birth to a literal man, and the Woman is definitly not Mary the mother of Jesus, neither was Mary carried away to the wilderness for protection from Satan after giving birth to Christ, nor was Israel, or the Jews.


Jesus Christ also was'nt caught up to the throne of God as soon as he was born, he was here on earth for at least 33 years. What these interpretations miss here, is that Jesus also promised the overcomeing saints, that they also will rule with a rod of iron, along side Christ..Rev 2:26,27. and John is writing about future events, not past... all the prophecies of the birth of Christ are fulfilled.





The Antichrist (WILL) rule for 3 1/2 years...God must protect the Jews or the Antichrist would kill every one of them, and they have not yet accepted Christ as their Messiah...but i believe they will, after God pleads with them in the wilderness.

As soon as the woman gave birth to the Manchild, (The Church?) we see Satan going full force to try and destroy her...because the Manchild was Raptured (Caught up to God) Sometime mid point. Then we see Satan going after the left behind Saints, who didnt make themselfs ready to meet the bridegroom (May be wrong on this, as Jesus says the door was shut) . And as a result, i think they have to give their lives for their faith. Or they may also be part of the (falling away),as we see in Daniel... he says they fell, but it was not for their destruction...but that they would be tried and made white...Also the five wise virgins must get oil in their lamps, and go out to meet the bridegroom.


Now, the 24 Elders of this book is where it gets a little complicated, they seem to be Raptured saints or part of the redeemed Church...but even some Pre-Trib Theologians are beginning to discredit that they are. Why?... well we have a problem with the KJV, compared to all other newer versions i have of the Bible...Lets have a look.


KJV Version

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and
nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made US unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall reign on the earth.


ASV Version

Rev 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and
nation,
Rev 5:10 and madest THEM to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and THEY reign upon earth.


BBE Version

Rev 5:9 And their voices are sounding in a new song, saying, It is right for you to take the book and to make it open: for you were put to death and have made an offering to God of your blood for men of every tribe, and
language, and people, and nation,
Rev 5:10 And have made THEM a kingdom and priests to our God, and THEY are ruling on the earth.


CEV Version

Rev 5:9 Then they sang a new song, "You are worthy to receive the scroll and open its seals, because you were killed. And with your own blood you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.
Rev 5:10 You let THEM become kings and serve God as priests, and THEY will rule on earth."


ISV Version

Rev 5:8 When the lamb had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders bowed down in front of him. Each held a harp and a gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
Rev 5:10 You made THEM a kingdom and priests for our God, and THEY will reign on the earth."


Also notice that the four beast are also singing this song, these four beast are mentioned in the old testament as being cherubims. So how could an angelic being sing the song of the redeemed, and claim they were redeemed from the earth? Impossible...


As we see only the KJV Version uses WE and US...Well i dont have all the versions, but the ones i do have don't make them out to be a redeemed Church. So there must have been a mis-translation on these words...also there is no proof anywhere that these 24 Elders represent Raptured saints, i mean a redeemed N.T Church...So now some Pri-Trib viewers are using the Great Multitude that came out of (Great Tribulation), as a basis for this interpretation. As we should know this wont work, because the Great Multitude came out of the Great tribulation, (Jacobs Trouble, and Daniel says this will be 3 1/2 years,) not the beginning of the Seven year tribulation.


But where did these 24 Elders come from? since we see the four beast in the O.T... but not the 24 Elders. Well when Jesus rose from the dead, so did some other saints and likely prophets, and we also see Moses and Elijah
at the Transfiguration...These 24 Elders could be Old Testament prophets or saints. As John didnt say who they were, or where they came from, we have to leave them just as they are...and that is just that they are 24 Elders
in heaven. Or else we end up with some serious private interpretation on who they are. Why? because there is no prophecies about them... And all other newer versions of the bibles i list, dont make them out to be part of the
Rapture, or the redeemed of the Church age.


My Study so far... Keep in mind the shortening of the days, And read it carefully...I may be incorrect on some of this, but who can say they have it all figured out?...also i think the Great Multitude that comes out of Great
Tribulation, is this Manchild. Because this Manchild is going to become a Nation of People, who will be born in one day for God, or broth forth...Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

You must read Isaiah Chapter 66...to understand the Manchild of Revelation 12. It is also a real good endtime prophecy, of God setting up his kingdom.


The Manchild...the Children of Zion, (Jerusalem "ie Israel')...The Church, and the grafted back in Jews?


A promise was also given to the saints, to rule with a rod of iron, along side Christ.


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


Bible Theologians agree that the Woman of revelation Chapter 12 represents Israel, because of the crown of twelve stars, these stars could represent the 12 tribes, or the 12 apostles, but we must not forget that Jerusalem is in Israel, and is the city of God.


Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


Isa 26:17 (Like as a woman with child), that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, (as a woman in travail), and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 (Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the (time of Jacob's trouble); but he shall be saved out of it.


The Bible speaks about these birth pains over and over. Especially the Old testament prophecies. And these birth pains are not just for the Jews, these birth pains will bring forth the Manchild, who will rule with a rod of iron.
Don't forget that the above O.T prophecies are semi symbolic, so is the Woman of Revelation 12.

Rev 12:5 (And she brought forth a Manchild), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was (caught up) unto God, and to his throne.


(Raptured from the Great Tribulation ) This is not a Secret Rapture, its right here in black and white...the word Rapture means caught up or carried away...the woman was also carried away and lead to the wilderness... I think for years we have been looking for the Rapture, when Revelation Chapter 12 has it right in front of our face, and we have ignored it...because people thought this Manchild was Jesus Christ. as i said, nowhere in bible prophecy is Jesus Christ ever refered to as a Manchild.


A nation will be born in one day, when the Woman has her children, (The Great Multitude?). Will God make a nation with only 144.000 firstfruit Jews?...I doubt it.

Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall (appear) to your joy, and they shall be
ashamed.
(Isa 66:6 ) A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a (Manchild).
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the (earth be made to bring forth) in one day? or (shall a nation be born at once?) for as soon as (Zion travailed), she brought forth her children.
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.


Notice the Woman brought forth her children, A nation, Manchild...(Not Jesus). look at Isa (66.6) a voice from the Temple, that rendereth recompence to his enemies?... Its interesting that i was looking for passages with 666 in them, when i stumbled apon this... also interesting is the gospel of John chapter 6.66


The Womans children (Manchild)... the Woman is Jerusalem (ie Israel), and part of Gods people. Jerusalem symbolicly...will bring forth her children in travail... are you a child of this nation, who will be born in one day? If you are a child of God, then i think you will be. "Isaiah Chapter 66 and Revelation Chapter 12"



The falling away.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed), the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God), shewing himself that he is God.

Above we see the words falling away...most Pre-Tribers say this falling away is the Rapture...this makes no sence at all. Lets see what Daniel says.

Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

So we see, Daniel plainly says some will fall, to try them, and to make them white. Daniel seen the falling away and so did Paul...the falling away is certainly not the Rapture. But when you want a Rapture bad enough you can
make one...even with a sentence...I can make a Rapture with the Two Witnesses if i try hard enough. But my study is not to try and make one, my study is to try and find one...And the Manchild of Revelation Chapter 12 is
definitly a Rapture...he was Caught up to God.




The Seal.

The Seal,Holy Spirit, Protection from Gods Wrath, (Here also is a problem for Pre-Wrath) ...I think the new name of God, will be given to all saints sometime after the Rapture. Just like in Egypt, God didnt take his people
out... instead he made them put blood on the door post of their houses, for protection of his wrath on Egypt. The blood of Jesus is our Seal...or our house protection (Body). If there is any of Gods wrath before the Rapture, it
will not come near his people. Their Sealed...see below


2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this Seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


The 144.000 Jews, firstfruits of Gods harvest. Some say they will Evangelize the world?...Id like to know where it says that?...Anyway my study is more on this Manchild and Woman.144.000 Jews... virgins... given a (Seal) for protection from Gods Wrath.


Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Christ standing on mount Sion...John only seen the 144.000 and not the ones who came out of the Great Tribulation ...These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. The church must be in this group of firstfruits, or we have a big problem for (The Pre-Trib view)...God is not a bad farmer, when you have a crop... you always take the firstfruits first. The end of the world is the Harvest...the angels will come to take the firstfruits first. No Harvester can take his firstfruits twice. Actually this is Pre-Trib in a way, because the Great tribulation is only the last 3 1/2 years...


Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



The Harvest.


Gods endtimes Harvest... Sometime after the Antichrist is revealed, here John sees the appearing of Christ, or someone like him on a cloud...no (horse), the harvest is ripe...then God takes his firstfruits...The dead in Christ are not raised here.


Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev
14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the (harvest) of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.



The Church...Manchild? Very possible.

Raptured Church..palms in their hands, Saying Salvation to our God ...(notice this group has palms in their hands)...while the (beheaded saints have harps). So these are two seperate groups...

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a Great Multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Five wise virgins, with OIL in their lamps?...Mid-Trib.They came out of Great Tribulation... Jacobs Trouble and this is 3 1/2 years... according to Daniel, Satans wrath, not seven years of tribulation. These also have a Seal for
protection, from Gods Wrath ...Holy Spirit for redemption. Daniel says that the Antichrist will make a peace pack with Israel.. that will last for 3 1/2 years, then in the middle of the agreement, he will set up the abomination
of desolation, that Jesus warned us about. So the Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years.. not seven as many claim.


Daniel says the saints will be given into the hands of the man of sin, for a time, times, and a half a time. So it still could be a Post-Trib rapture.


Eph 4:30 And grieve not the (holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed) unto the day of redemption.


Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


Five wise.. five foolish

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise (took oil) in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a (cry made), Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.


And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Who would make this cry? the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him? The only ones i know who could, are the Two Witnesses of Revelation. They are prophets, so Gods people better listen to them..here is an Old Testament prophecy of these Two Witnesses.

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden (oil out of themselves)?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the (two anointed ones), that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Notice they empty Oil out of themselves...and the wise virgins get Oil...something to think about. Also we see the wise virgins, are told, or see, that the bridegroom is coming, a (cry) was made...so we see that the coming of the lord is not Imminent...the wise are gonna know hes coming. like Daniel said, the wise will understand...but the wicked will not. As in the days of Noah? yes Noah knew the flood was coming! But the wicked did not, or
did not believe him . As in the days of Lot? same thing, Lot knew God was going to destroy Sodom...so we see the Rapture is not Imminent, Gods people are not going to be in darkness, a cry will be made to go out and meet the bridegroom!...and the Wise virgins will obey it.


I think im correct on this...Also Jesus gave signs of his coming...there is no way his people will not know that hes coming. We will not know the day or the hour...but we will know hes coming. He said when you see these things come to pass, lift up your heads...because its time to be redeemed. Constantly im hearing, this is for the Jews. The book of Revelation was written for the Church, and given to the Church, not the Jews...the Jews dont even read the New Testament. Actually its for Jew and Gentile, if they are part of the Body of Christ. Heres proof that the Body of Christ will know hes coming...below


1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


Therefore let us not sleep? The five foolish virgins were asleep.
 
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Church Tribulation.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


That we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God? Some say the Church will not suffer any tribulation. That is very deceptive...the above verse proves that. But when trouble comes God will make a way out. But remember... tribulation is NOT Gods wrath.



God in Egypt.

Did God take the children of Israel out of Egypt Imminently?...NO, he said he heard their crys, their travail, God is likely going to take his Church when the cry out to him in travail... A lot of times God waited the last minute to show his Power and Glory...

Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his (own elect), which (cry day and night) unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?



The Martyrs.


Beheaded saints... (harps of God in their hands, not palms)...sing the song of Moses, and stand on the sea of glass...So we see these are different than the Great Multitude that came out of Great Tribulation. So keep that in
mind



Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having
the harps of God.[/B
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the
beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



The Woman in the wilderness goes with these saints, and the rest of the dead in Christ... at the Last Trump. This is the first resurrection...The Manchild is gone, he was Caught up to God...Raptured.



The Woman. and Exodus...


The Woman who had the Manchild...grafted back in Jews. Also Mid-Trib... and she will be Alive and remain on earth, till the Second Coming...We who are alive and remain at his coming...Resurrection, Last Trump.

Remember, the days were shortend for the gathering of the Elect, by Angels... God sends his angels twice...once for the protection of the Elect, (the Woman and the Manchild) and then with a Trumpet at His Second Coming, to take the Dead in Christ and the Woman in the wilderness, the ones who are Alive and remain.


Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two (wings of a great eagle), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,(Protected by God in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years), from the face of the serpent...Satan, Antichrist.


Wings of a great eagle? what are these wings? Jesus tells us who these wings belong to...Below.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Hes calling his Angels eagles...


Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.


For a long time people thought that the wings of the great eagle, was the U.S.A air lifting the Jews to safety... so much for that private interpretation...God does'nt need men, or planes, or atomic bombs, or anything to do what he can do.. because he is Almighty. He will put it in mens hearts to do his will, but he does'nt need mans inventions to do anything...he proved that in Egypt with Moses.


God pleads with the Jews of this Woman in the wilderness...Likely to accept their Messiah. And this is also where they will likely mourn for him whom they have pierced...as we see below, he will talk to them face to face.



A Modern day Exodus.

Ezekiel 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will (gather) you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the (wilderness) of the people, and there will I plead with you (face to face).
Eze 20:36 (Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you), saith the Lord GOD.


And will (gather) you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a (mighty hand), and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.?

God will gather and lead these Jews, for protection from the Wrath of Satan by angels...at the Mid Point of the Tribulation. Why did i say lead? Because some of these Jews are in Israel, and are not scattered into other countries. Remember what Jesus said...Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...Wilderness...(The Woman).




Micheal Stands up.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: (Michael) and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall (Michael) stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a (time of trouble), such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be (delivered), every one that shall be found (written in the book).


Written in the book? Are only the Jews written in the book? I dont think so.


Also id like to mention, some believe that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. Michael the Archangel could be the restrainer, as we see him above, no longer holding back Satan...but casting him down to the Earth. This is when all Hell breaks lose...

Again we see Revelation Chapter 12...is where (Michael) stands up, for Gods people,and at that time Gods people shall be delivered...from the Great Tribulation, last 3 1/2 years...Jacobs Trouble. Some would like to say
the Church is more important to God,and this is only for the Jews, well they should know by now, that the Jews are going to be part of the Church, when they are grafted back in, God is no respector of persons.


Plus the Antichrist is going to be a worldwide persecuter, not just on Israel, Jacobs Trouble will be a worldwide event...not just for the Jews. All the world is going to have to deal with the Antichrist, one way or another... And he must be revealed before our gathering unto God, and that likely DONT happen till sometime Mid-Trib, when he sets up the Idol...here Paul sees the (gathering) of the Elect... (The Manchild and the Woman)...See below


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, (by) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (AND) by our gathering together unto him),
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a (falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed), the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; (so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God), shewing himself that he is God.


He also seen the Second coming...below as well, where the dead in Christ are raised and the ones who are (Alive and remain)... the Woman (Jews) in the wilderness. So there are two Raptures, or should i say one Rapture of the Manchild, and one resurrection of the Woman and the dead in Christ... the Jews that had an Exodus to the wilderness, were left on earth for the Second Coming of Christ.


1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are (alive and remain) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


As we see above this is where i get stumped, because Paul says that the dead will rise first. I wonder if the Book of Revelation takes presidence over what Paul said, i do believe it could. But only Christ would know for sure, it could be progressive revelation , as Jesus did say he would shorten the days for the Elects sake. And the Book of Revelation did come about after Paul said this. Like i said at first ..you cant know it all, but its something to chew on...


Also read the passages below, these are just a few to show who this Woman is, but dont forget the Manchild that she brings forth. The children of Zion..

Psa 48:1 A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah. Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
Psa 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
Psa 48:3 God is known in her palaces for a refuge.
Psa 48:4 For, lo, the kings were assembled, they passed by together.
Psa 48:5 They saw it, and so they marvelled; they were troubled, and hasted away.
Psa 48:6 Fear took hold upon them there, and pain, as of a woman in travail.


Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither
shall they learn war any more.


Mic 4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
Mic 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, (O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail:) for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be
delivered;
there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies
Mic 4:11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.


Jer 4: 1 to 31.. For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, (as a woman in travail), and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 (Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble); but he shall be saved out of it.


End Notes

I use to be Post-Trib, untill i seen the 144.000 being the firstfruits of the endtimes harvest ,and the Great Multitude that comes out of Great tribulation ...Pre-Trib dont fit here either. This Manchild is being Raptured
Mid-Trib. (The Manchild must be understood), because Isaiah Chapter 66 says hes not Jesus Christ. The Church must be Raptured with these firstfruits as well, or the Church is not part of the firstfruits of Gods endtimes harvest...Plain and simple. Isaiah also says, this will be the Glory of the Gentiles.


As you can see, i tried my best not to just pull interpretations out of the air, but used as much scripture as possible to form my point. Both from
the old testament, and the new testament, theres a saying that goes like this, the best interpreter of scripture is scripture. And if you can't give scripture to back up your interpretation of these prophecies, then you have no right to be too dogmatic about it. Sad to say, that this is being done all the time, when it comes to the book of revelation...


Adam

God bless
 
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Firstly, Fellowservant, I would like to say that I appreciate the apparent time and effort you have put into this study. It is in that light that I would ask you to view any comments I make contrary to any certain thing you say. Be assured, my brother, that I say them not in the spirit of controversy...

Fellowservant said:
Now, the 24 Elders of this book is where it gets a little complicated, they seem to be Raptured saints or part of the redeemed Church...but even some Pre-Trib Theologians are beginning to discredit that they are. Why?... well we have a problem with the KJV, compared to all other newer versions i have of the Bible...Lets have a look.
As I have said on numerous occasions, newer is not always better. We cannot and must not disallow the KJV translation just because it does not fit our theology. Has it been *PROVEN* that the KJV is wrong concerning this matter? No, it hasn't...

Fellowservant said:
KJV Version
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed US (G2248 - hēmas) to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made US (G2248 - hēmas) unto our God kings and priests: and WE shall reign on the earth.
The greek word that is translated *US* in Rev 5:9-10 is the exact same greek word that is translated *US* in the following:

Matthew 6:13 And lead *US* (G2248 - hēmas) not into temptation, but deliver *US* (G2248 - hēmas) from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.

G2248 > hēmas
Accusative plural of G1473; us: - our, us, we.

Did the translators also make a mistake here? I think not...
Also, in the interest of balance and fairness, here are a few versions that agree with the KJV translation of *US* and *WE* in Rev 5:9-10:

(Webster) Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals of it: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed *US* to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and language, and people, and nation;
5:10 And hast made *US* to our God kings and priests: and *WE* shall reign on the earth.

(YLT) Revelation 5:9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because thou wast slain, and didst redeem *US* to God in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
5:10 and didst make *US* to our God kings and priests, and *WE* shall reign upon the earth.'

(WEB) revelation 5:10 They sang a new song, saying, "You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought *US* for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,
5:10 and made *US* kings and priests to our God, and *WE* will reign on earth."

Fellowservant said:
Also notice that the four beast are also singing this song, these four beast are mentioned in the old testament as being cherubims. So how could an angelic being sing the song of the redeemed, and claim they were redeemed from the earth? Impossible...
Clearly, it is because you are looking at Revelation 5:9-10 with preconceived ideas concerning the living creatures of Exekiel that you must - if you are to hold unto your preconceived ideas - conclude that 'WE" and 'US' were mistranslated in the KJV.

However, if you look at Revelation 5:9-10 without such preconceived ideas, it is much easier to conclude that because these four living creatures are said to be singing the song of the redeemed, they MUST somehow be representative of the redeemed. Representative, i say, because the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is full of symbolism. Before you quickly reject that last statement, take another look at Revelation 5:6...

Also, although Ezekiel speaks of four living creatures that are called cherubims, we are NOT told what those cherubims represent. Represent, I say, because the book of Ezekiel is also a book of certain symbolism.

Furthermore, the fact is that there is not even *ONE* scripture in Ezekiel that states, implies or infers that the four living creatures of Ezekiel aren't somehow representative of the redeemed of God. Conversely, there is a scripture in the book of *REVELATION* that clearly indicates that those living creatures are representative of such...

As you said, Fellowservant:

Fellowservant said:
the best interpreter of scripture is scripture.
Amen!

Peace to all!
 
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Fellowservant said:
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are (alive and remain) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As we see above this is where i get stumped, because Paul says that the dead will rise first. I wonder if the Book of Revelation takes presidence over what Paul said, i do believe it could. But only Christ would know for sure, it could be progressive revelation , as Jesus did say he would shorten the days for the Elects sake. And the Book of Revelation did come about after Paul said this. Like i said at first ..you cant know it all, but its something to chew on...
One of the common sense rules of interpretation of scripture basically says that obscure (no clear statement of fact) scriptures must be understood in the light of plain-speaking scriptures.

Fellowservant, it seems to me that the reason you are "stumped" is because you are attempting to understand plain-speaking scriptures in the light(?) of obscure scriptures. Unto what shall I liken this? Shall I liken it unto entering into a well-lit room and turning the lights off so you can see what in there? :confused: Shall I liken it unto directing a beam of darkness at the light so you can see what's hidden there? :confused:

My dear brother, no clearer statement of fact can be found in scripture than Paul stating that "the dead in Christ SHALL rise FIRST..." You MUST shine the clear light of that statement upon any and all obscure scriptures that pertain to the rapture of the church. Only then will the obscure scriptures become clear...

That said, I appreciate your apparent desire to study and understand bible prophecy!

Peace to you!
 
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Fellowservant said:
He also seen the Second coming...below as well, where the dead in Christ are raised and the ones who are (Alive and remain)... the Woman (Jews) in the wilderness. So there are two Raptures, or should i say one Rapture of the Manchild, and one resurrection of the Woman and the dead in Christ... the Jews that had an Exodus to the wilderness, were left on earth for the Second Coming of Christ.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are (alive and remain) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
As we see above this is where i get stumped, because Paul says that the dead will rise first. I wonder if the Book of Revelation takes presidence over what Paul said, i do believe it could. But only Christ would know for sure, it could be progressive revelation , as Jesus did say he would shorten the days for the Elects sake. And the Book of Revelation did come about after Paul said this. Like i said at first ..you cant know it all, but its something to chew on...
Fellowservant, You say you are stumped. I believe these verses you have quoted from 1 Thess 4 are concerning the Rapture - that we are waiting on now, for God to take us as believers home, that those Christians who have already died will be raised first and we will join them in the air to be with our Saviour forever.

I also believe from Revelations that chapters 1 - 3 are concerning the church up to and including today. Chapter 4 then starts ".... “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” Therefore what John sees from here on includes the 7 years tribulation and afterwards.
 
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pathfinder said:
My dear brother, no clearer statement of fact can be found in scripture than Paul stating that "the dead in Christ SHALL rise FIRST..." You MUST shine the clear light of that statement upon any and all obscure scriptures that pertain to the rapture of the church. Only then will the obscure scriptures become clear...

That said, I appreciate your apparent desire to study and understand bible prophecy!

Peace to you!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are (alive and remain) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Above is a revelation of the first resurrection, that was shown to Paul.


The reason i said i was stumped, is because we have a contradiction here...If there is a Rapture (ie ressurrection of the just) before the second coming of Christ, or before the tribulation saints.. then the tribulation saints end up in the second resurrection...there is only two major resurrections..one for the Just, one for the unjust. So if there is a Rapture before the tribulation saints, the one's who are beheaded (trib- saints) end up in the second resurrection, which is the resurrection of the unjust. Even Bible Theologians are stumped here. This knocks Pre-Trib and even my study out of the water...it cant be answered.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power

God bless
 
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sunshine307 said:
Fellowservant, You say you are stumped. I believe these verses you have quoted from 1 Thess 4 are concerning the Rapture - that we are waiting on now, for God to take us as believers home, that those Christians who have already died will be raised first and we will join them in the air to be with our Saviour forever.
I also believe from Revelations that chapters 1 - 3 are concerning the church up to and including today. Chapter 4 then starts ".... “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.” Therefore what John sees from here on includes the 7 years tribulation and afterwards.

Thats the Pre-Trib doctrine, so what are you saying Sister? that the rapture took place almost 2000 years ago? John was caught up to heaven to write the book of revelation...i see no rapture here..except John himself. Also John was caught up to heaven in spirit, not body...the saints will be caught up in a bodily resurrection.


Edit Sister...i respect all views of the Rapture...and i also may agree on a Pre-Trib rapture, just not the way some teach it. So i don't want you to misunderstand my study. I wrote this a long time ago, and it does have me saying Pre-Trib dont fit and so on...but i lean toward a Pre-Great-Trib Rapture, which i believe is almost the same thing, just not taught the same. So dont get me wrong ...:star:

God bless Sister..
 
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pathfinder said:
Firstly, Fellowservant, I would like to say that I appreciate the apparent time and effort you have put into this study. It is in that light that I would ask you to view any comments I make contrary to any certain thing you say. Be assured, my brother, that I say them not in the spirit of controversy...

(Webster) Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals of it: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed *US* to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and language, and people, and nation;
5:10 And hast made *US* to our God kings and priests: and *WE* shall reign on the earth.

Peace to all!
Revelation 5:9...... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed *US* to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and language, and people, and nation.
5:10 And hast made *US* to our God kings and priests: and *WE* shall reign on the earth.


So the Four Beast were redeemed out of out of every kindred, and language, and people, and nation... by the blood of Jesus Christ? And they will reign on the earth? and be kings and priests?

(ASV) And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

The newer translation above, makes more sence here...common sense, because these Four Beast are Cherubims... Christ didnt shed his blood for angelic beings, but for men...and it is men who will rule with him on earth, not angelic creatures. Theses Four Beast and the 24 Elders are not singing the song of the redeemed... but a song for the redeemed.

I mean what else can i say?

No spirit of controversy here either brother. just trying to answer some of these thoughts

God bless
 
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Fellowservant said:
Thats the Pre-Trib doctrine, so what are you saying Sister? that the rapture took place almost 2000 years ago? John was caught up to heaven to write the book of revelation...i see no rapture here..except John himself. Also John was caught up to heaven in spirit, not body...the saints will be caught up in a bodily resurrection.
Edit Sister...i respect all views of the Rapture...and i also may agree on a Pre-Trib rapture, just not the way some teach it. So i don't want you to misunderstand my study. I wrote this a long time ago, and it does have me saying Pre-Trib dont fit and so on...but i lean toward a Pre-Great-Trib Rapture, which i believe is almost the same thing, just not taught the same. So dont get me wrong ...:star:
God bless Sister..
Fellowservant what I said is that we are waiting on the rapture now. :love:
Sunshine307 said:
You say you are stumped. I believe these verses you have quoted from 1 Thess 4 are concerning the Rapture - that we are waiting on now, for God to take us as believers home, that those Christians who have already died will be raised first and we will join them in the air to be with our Saviour forever.
 
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sunshine307 said:
Fellowservant what I said is that we are waiting on the rapture now. :love:
I agree sister: we are still waiting for the that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.:star:

God bless sister
 

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