Question about mat 24 fig tree

[Joe in Arkansas]

Evil, yes evil

Hello Joe, I noticed that you used Isaiah 45:7.

Isa 45:7 ...I make peace, and create calamity(evil?).

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me;
6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other,
7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and
creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these," (Isaiah 45:5-7).
​

Notice that the context of the verse is dealing with who God is,
that it is God who speaks of natural phenomena (sun, light, dark),
and it is God who is able to cause "well-being" as well as "calamity."
Contextually, this verse is dealing with natural disasters and human
comfort issues. It is not speaking of moral evil; rather, it is dealing with
calamity, distress, etc. This is consistent with other scriptures. For example,
Also, take note that Isaiah is presenting contrasts.
He speaks of "light" and "darkness," "well being" and "calamity."
The word "well-being" in the Hebrew is the word for 'peace,' "Shalome."
So, in the context, we are seeing two sets of opposites: Light and dark,
peace and non-peace, or well being and calamity. The "evil" that is
spoken of is not ontological evil, but the evil experienced by people
in the form of calamity. (Christian Apologetics)

God is definitely not creating evil in Isaiah 45:7.

Our God is Holy.

David,
Please use your Hebrew dictionary. The word used in Isa 45:7 is "ra". It's most common translation is "evil" and that is why the KJV translates it as such. Here is its definition:

Ra: 1). evil, bad
2). evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
3). evil, misery, distress, injury

You are letting your preconceived view of God override scripture.

How about this verse?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Is not Satan evil? God purposefully created Satan to destroy. Isn't mankind also evil? Didn't He create us? Didn't God create all things?

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Of course, God created evil. God is the creator of all things - including evil. Evil is a necessary component of our salvation. Without the presence of evil in this world, we could not be made into the image of God. God created evil in this world to use it in creating many sons and daughters who are fully made in His image.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Joe

 

[jari]

Is not Satan evil? God purposefully created Satan to destroy. Isn't mankind also evil? Didn't He create us? Didn't God create all things?

God created everything good. He just granted free will so that man and satan as well was able to fall and rebel.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

God created everything good. He just granted free will so that man and satan as well was able to fall and rebel.

You're right everything was good on the end of that 6th day even though the fall of mankind happened earlier in the day.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I can clearly see that God himself has free will but I'm not so sure we do.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Isaiah 10:15 Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it, or the saw boast against him who uses it? As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up, or a club brandish him who is not wood!

Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?

I think any appearance of control by man is an illusion.

His kingdom come his will be done.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

God created everything good. He just granted free will so that man and satan as well was able to fall and rebel.

Jari,
Your beliefs are strong but your lack of scripture to support those beliefs is even greater. Your beliefs are traditions of man, not scripture. You are merely parroting what you have learned in church. Show me the scriptures that say man was given a "free will" by God. Show me the scriptures that say Satan is a fallen angel and was not created to destroy. Show me the scriptures that say God did not create all things and finally show me the scriptures that say God will not save all men. There are none. I have listed numerous scripture that say exact what I believe. Why don't you believe the scriptures? Do you believe God's word is full of contradictions? Scripture clearly says that God created all things and the He will save all men. Why do you not believe Him?

Joe

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

You're right everything was good on the end of that 6th day even though the fall of mankind happened earlier in the day.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I can clearly see that God himself has free will but I'm not so sure we do.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Isaiah 10:15 Does the ax raise itself above him who swings it, or the saw boast against him who uses it? As if a rod were to wield him who lifts it up, or a club brandish him who is not wood!

Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?

I think any appearance of control by man is an illusion.

His kingdom come his will be done.

Thiscrosshurts,
You are exactly right. "Free will" is an illusion. But even more precisely, it is a deception from Satan.

Thanks for your post.
Joe

 

[jari]

Jari,
Your beliefs are strong but your lack of scripture to support those beliefs is even greater. Your beliefs are traditions of man, not scripture. You are merely parroting what you have learned in church. Show me the scriptures that say man was given a "free will" by God. Show me the scriptures that say Satan is a fallen angel and was not created to destroy. Show me the scriptures that say God did not create all things and finally show me the scriptures that say God will not save all men. There are none. I have listed numerous scripture that say exact what I believe. Why don't you believe the scriptures? Do you believe God's word is full of contradictions? Scripture clearly says that God created all things and the He will save all men. Why do you not believe Him?

Joe

you continue with this sterotyping thinking everybody is just deceived member of the church and your only person in this planet who read bible him self.
not unusual at all, your not first one i came across with this same attitude and not the last one.


i think you know your self from the scripture you have posted that not all men will be saved but because its God's will that all men be saved you think they will after all.

But it just doesnt mean that unfortunately.

in Bible God always gives man a choise according to his free will. theres not single scripture but its throughout the bible.

if we didnt have free will nothing would ever matter. Not believing in Jesus or praying or reading bible. nothing would simply matter.

God created everything good and Adam was without sin :

(Gen 1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

then the fall of Adam & Eve came.....

Devil & his angels cast out:

(Rev 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Rev 12:10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


so theres you all the scripture you need.

i want to also give another scripture to think about regarding this topic. you keep saying God creates evil as in regular basis but its never His ultimate will:

(Joh 10:10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

God bless you

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

you continue with this sterotyping thinking everybody is just deceived member of the church and your only person in this planet who read bible him self.
not unusual at all, your not first one i came across with this same attitude and not the last one.


i think you know your self from the scripture you have posted that not all men will be saved but because its God's will that all men be saved you think they will after all.

But it just doesnt mean that unfortunately.

in Bible God always gives man a choise according to his free will. theres not single scripture but its throughout the bible.

if we didnt have free will nothing would ever matter. Not believing in Jesus or praying or reading bible. nothing would simply matter.

God created everything good and Adam was without sin :

(Gen 1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

then the fall of Adam & Eve came.....

Devil & his angels cast out:

(Rev 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Rev 12:10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


so theres you all the scripture you need.

i want to also give another scripture to think about regarding this topic. you keep saying God creates evil as in regular basis but its never His ultimate will:

(Joh 10:10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

God bless you

Dear Jari,

You said:
i think you know your self from the scripture you have posted that not all men will be saved but because its God's will that all men be saved you think they will after all.

But it just doesnt mean that unfortunately.

I know from scripture that not all men will be saved into the church. BUT, through the church in the final age, after all men have been resurrected to judgment, the rest of mankind WILL BE SAVED into the Kingdom of Heaven. The Word of God proclaims it. And yes, I think it will happen because it's God's "will that all men be saved". God will have all that he "wills" & desires accomplished. Here are the scriptures:

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

If God wills or desires ANYTHING, He will have it. What does God say He will do in these verses below?

1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Phi 2:10:11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Why do you tell me and God that He will never accomplish this word that has go out from His mouth?

You said:
in Bible God always gives man a choise according to his free will. theres not single scripture but its throughout the bible.

There are no scriptures nor is it "throughout the bible" that man has a free will. It is throughout the bible that man makes "choices" but that is not free will. Even a computer makes choices and a computer does not have free will. The scriptures that do address the "cause" of the choices we make all say that God is the cause. I have quoted many of them in this thread. There are no scriptures that say that our will is free of cause. The "free will" belief is a heretical belief comes from Satan. There simply are not any scriptures to support it.

You said:
if we didnt have free will nothing would ever matter. Not believing in Jesus or praying or reading bible. nothing would simply matter.

It all matters. God does not force us to make certain choices, we make them willingly. He merely causes all the right conditions and circumstances to be in place so that we willing make the decision that He desires we make. Can't you see the difference?

You said:
(Gen 1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

then the fall of Adam & Eve came.....

Yes, everything God created was good. It was good for creating many sons & daughters who are made in His image. Sons & daughters who have a knowledge of good and evil because they at one time were evil. God created everything, good and evil, and He works it all together for good. We are His creation and He controls His creation to accomplish all that He said He would accomplish. The word has go out from His mouth and it will not return to Him void.

You said:
(Rev 12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(Rev 12:10) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


so theres you all the scripture you need.

Jari, that scripture you quoted is referring to what happened to Satan upon Christ's resurrection. He was thrown out of heaven (cast down) to the earth. Also notice that it says that "Satan deceiveth the whole earth". "Earth" in Revelation is symbolic of the church. The church is higher than those who dwell in the sea (unbelievers) but not as high as those who dwell in the heavens (the chosen). This scripture (if you have spiritual understanding) shows that Satan has deceived the whole church. Unless we hear God's call to "come out of her my people" you will die in your sins. But no one in the church can hear God's voice unless Christ comes a second time to you and heals your spiritual blindness & deafness as I have explained earlier in this thread.

You said:
i want to also give another scripture to think about regarding this topic. you keep saying God creates evil as in regular basis but its never His ultimate will:

(Joh 10:10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

No, His ultimate will is for evil to be destroyed, the evil that He created in the first place. The verse you quoted is one of my favorite verses. John 10:10 is the only single verse in scripture that I know of that mentions the whole plan of salvation.

It is a two step plan.
Step 1: Christ purchased our sin debt of mankind at the cross. The debt we owed for sinning was death (which is the penalty of sin - the christian hell was never the penalty). Now we owe the debt to Christ and He promised to forgive us that debt. Now, death cannot hold any of mankind at this point. Christ has the keys to death and will resurrect all men. The "I have come that they might have life" of John 10:10 has been accomplished.

Step 2: Even if we are resurrect again, we are not acceptable to Christ in our sinning condition. That must be changed. The process of receiving the Holy Spirit, dying to self, growing to spiritual maturity is what must happen in Step 2. Once all of mankind has completed Step 2, then the sin nature of mankind will be destroyed and many new sons & daughters of God will be born into the Kingdom of Heaven. Then the second part of John 10:10 will be accomplished: "that they might have it more abundantly".

Step 1 is complete but Step 2 will take a great deal of time - three ages of time in fact. But Christ will give us all abundant life in the Kingdom of Heaven, we must be patient (as scripture tells His saints to be) and wait on the Lord. It will all be accomplished in "due time".

1Tim 2:4-5 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Then God will be "all in all" and eternity for mankind starts.

1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And that is the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ!

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[jari]

Hi Joe

If God wills or desires ANYTHING, He will have it. What does God say He will do in these verses below?

Because God created hell. And He says people will go there if they are not saved.

so its quite simple.

God created everything, good and evil

that's not what the scripture said. it said God created all good.

you just added that word "evil".

Adam and Eve received knowledge of good and evil later on.

so they were not evil from the beginning.

Jari, that scripture you quoted is referring to what happened to Satan upon Christ's resurrection

you can think this way but i believe it means something that happened around Jesus' earthly time.

No, His ultimate will is for evil to be destroyed, the evil that He created in the first place.

why would Jesus say He gives abudant life and then He created evil? makes no sense.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

Hi Joe


Because God created hell. And He says people will go there if they are not saved.

so its quite simple.



that's not what the scripture said. it said God created all good.

you just added that word "evil".

Adam and Eve received knowledge of good and evil later on.

so they were not evil from the beginning.




you can think this way but i believe it means something that happened around Jesus' earthly time.






why would Jesus say He gives abudant life and then He created evil? makes no sense.

Jari,
God did not create "hell" because it does not exist. The "lake of Fire" is not "hell". In the few other places the word "hell" is used in scripture, it is speaking of the grave, the unseen place. Many years ago, the harlot church stole the idea of hell from the pagan religions so as to gain more control over the masses. They used fear to draw people to Christ and control them instead of drawing people to Christ by His love.

Also, why would God send anyone to this hell of yours for sinning? The scripture makes it clear that the penalty of sin is death, not torture in some fire pit that never burns out. Death is the penalty and with death, there is no suffering, there is no pain and there is no knowledge of existence. That is the penalty of sin. Why do you not show me the scriptures that support your beliefs?

Adam and Eve were created carnal. They were not created good in the sense that God is good. They were created carnal and they easily sinned. If they were created good, they would not have ever sinned.
However, God said the way that He did created them was good - good for His purpose of making them know what good and evil are. God's creation is functioning exactly as He intended - and that is good.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[jari]

Jari,
God did not create "hell" because it does not exist. The "lake of Fire" is not "hell". In the few other places the word "hell" is used in scripture, it is speaking of the grave, the unseen place. Many years ago, the harlot church stole the idea of hell from the pagan religions so as to gain more control over the masses. They used fear to draw people to Christ and control them instead of drawing people to Christ by His love.

Also, why would God send anyone to this hell of yours for sinning? The scripture makes it clear that the penalty of sin is death, not torture in some fire pit that never burns out. Death is the penalty and with death, there is no suffering, there is no pain and there is no knowledge of existence. That is the penalty of sin. Why do you not show me the scriptures that support your beliefs?

Adam and Eve were created carnal. They were not created good in the sense that God is good. They were created carnal and they easily sinned. If they were created good, they would not have ever sinned.
However, God said the way that He did created them was good - good for His purpose of making them know what good and evil are. God's creation is functioning exactly as He intended - and that is good.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

so when Jesus talked about place where fire doesnt quench and theres worms that was not hell either?
i hope i dont have to get scripture for this?
he used gehanna (garbage dump for bodies in israel, im told) apparently to tell jews there was hell. it isnt like that but point was its bad.
hell is also called damnation in scripture. so basically there certainly is good and bad end for a life.

(Mar 16:16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Luk 16:23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



hmm you still insist God created adam and eve as somewhat evil. fine i dont want to argue about this.

considering the fact they had not "fallen" yet they very pretty good for sure though.

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

so when Jesus talked about place where fire doesnt quench and theres worms that was not hell either?
i hope i dont have to get scripture for this?
he used gehanna (garbage dump for bodies in israel, im told) apparently to tell jews there was hell. it isnt like that but point was its bad.
hell is also called damnation in scripture. so basically there certainly is good and bad end for a life.

(Mar 16:16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Luk 16:23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



hmm you still insist God created adam and eve as somewhat evil. fine i dont want to argue about this.

considering the fact they had not "fallen" yet they very pretty good for sure though.

Hello again Jari,
I am very familiar with the gehenna fire scripture. Again, Christ is using spiritual language. As you said, Gehenna is the burning garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem. Christ uses that dump to illustrate the torment that a lost person may receive in judgment. As I said before in scripture, "fire" represents God's judgment. We are all tried with "fire" to purify us as fine gold is purified in fire. The dross is removed and the precious metal is all that will remain.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

With the above scripture, read it again but this time replace the word "fire" with "judgment" - the scripture's true meaning should be easier to understand. All mankind must go through fire (judgment) to be saved. What remains from the fire, is what will stay with us. We should be storing up treasure in heaven and not on the earth. The treasure we store up in heaven will pass through the fire and we will be rewarded for it upon our salvation. But regardless, we will all be saved by that fire in accordance with God's plan and timing.

All men are judged. The church's judgment is now and those that remain lost will be judged in the final age. We are saved by fire (judgment). Do you not know that when God judges us, we learn how to be righteous.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

You said:
hell is also called damnation in scripture. so basically there certainly is good and bad end for a life.

Hell is the unseen place, the grave. When says that we will be damned or destroyed, it is only referring to our carnal nature being destroyed. As Paul called it, our "Old Man". Paul died daily which is the same thing as being destroyed daily. Our carnal nature must be destroyed so that the New Man in Christ shall live. Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. Christ said it this way:

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Christ is again using spiritual language. The corn is our carnal nature with which we are born. It must die or be destroyed but from that death, it will rise again and produce much fruit. Everyone must die or be destroyed in order to be "born again". That is what water baptism represents. The death of our carnal nature (Old man) is shown by going under the water. The rising up represents our New Man rising up. Water baptism never saved anyone - what it represents must happen to us spiritually (inside us) in order for us to be saved (born again). The water baptism only takes a few seconds but the spiritual truth it represents takes a life time. Water baptism is a physical symbol that represents a spiritual truth. The physical counts for nothing but the spiritual is eternal. We all must be born of the Spirit and that means we have to die to self (destroyed) and go through fire (judgment). The church now and everyone else later. After Christ puts us through that spiritual process of salvation, we will have more abundant life (salvation).

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[jari]

Hello again Jari,
I am very familiar with the gehenna fire scripture. Again, Christ is using spiritual language. As you said, Gehenna is the burning garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem. Christ uses that dump to illustrate the torment that a lost person may receive in judgment. As I said before in scripture, "fire" represents God's judgment. We are all tried with "fire" to purify us as fine gold is purified in fire. The dross is removed and the precious metal is all that will remain.

you are free to take the bible as "spiritual language" but i do read it literally.

so since our mutual understanding of the scripture isnt same there's probably nothing we can discuss.

God bless

 

[Joe in Arkansas]

you are free to take the bible as "spiritual language" but i do read it literally.

so since our mutual understanding of the scripture isnt same there's probably nothing we can discuss.

God bless

Jari,
I used to believe it was mostly literal, too. But just over six years ago, I was shown that it is not. These verses comes to mind on how Christ "reveals" Himself to us:

Rev: 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Why do you suppose Christ made such a point in having John turn around to look behind him to hear the voice? It is mentioned three times about the voice being behind him and that is of great significance. It is only when the Lord comes and heals your spiritual blindness and spiritual deafness that you can know the true Christ. Once Christ has come to you this second time, you can then "look back" and begin to understand all that was Christ had been saying to you all along through the scriptures. Someday or age it will happen to you and you will began to know the true Christ and how wonderful and loving He really is.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

 

[jari]

Jari,
I used to believe it was mostly literal, too. But just over six years ago, I was shown that it is not. These verses comes to mind on how Christ "reveals" Himself to us:

Rev: 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Why do you suppose Christ made such a point in having John turn around to look behind him to hear the voice? It is mentioned three times about the voice being behind him and that is of great significance. It is only when the Lord comes and heals your spiritual blindness and spiritual deafness that you can know the true Christ. Once Christ has come to you this second time, you can then "look back" and begin to understand all that was Christ had been saying to you all along through the scriptures. Someday or age it will happen to you and you will began to know the true Christ and how wonderful and loving He really is.

May the Lord bless you,
Joe

Jesus is with me . thank you very much... atill taking bible literally and spiritual things spiritually. basically whole bible while being literal has to be understood in spirit inorder to be understood correctly and not in humans wisdom.