• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community.

    Join over 10,000 members today

    Register Log In

  • Hi Guest!

    I've added a brand new "Night Mode" option to our site design. I'd greatly appreciate your vote on this poll here.

    To switch to or from Light / Night mode simply click on Site Menu icon on top and on the dropdown choose "Switch to Night Mode" or "Switch to Light Mode"

    Thank you.

Proving Or Reproving Nicene Creed 381 A.D. At Talk Jesus

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Active Member
Interested in proving or reproving the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D.? Come join us at Talk Jesus ! You are invited to actually check the scripture reference for each line in the Nicene creed with us & not all of them prove that line! Can one come up with a better scriptural reference for those lines in question? Or will we find scripture reproving that line in the Nicene creed of 381 A.D. ? Come join us as we are relying on the Lord Jesus Christ to help us prove or reprove all things by Him!

Below is the Nicene creed of 381 A.D. with scriptural reference(s) for each line in that Nicene creed taken from this link below from that site;

holy Scripture References to Nicene Creed 381 A.D.?

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16) and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)
begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1: 35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)
He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)
Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1; 1 Cor. 15: 4)
And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19; Acts 7: 55)
And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)
His kingodom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)
catholic (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4: 5)
I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15: 12-49)
And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Amen. (Psalm 106:48)
(The translation used is from the text approved 1993 by His Eminence, Metropolitan Isaiah)

Feel free to join in on what may appear to be a modern day Reformation here at Talk Jesus as God permits. You can start at the beginning or join in the discussion in progress or point out a specific scriptural reference that does not prove that line in the Nicene creed, but maybe someone else will come up with a better scripture or maybe even a scripture for reproving it, but we are called to do this per the scripture below. Remember, prayer is needed for Him to minister.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
 
Active Member
Starting with this portion;

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16)

I am cutting it off here for a reproof. Although the Father had a part in creation, since it took 3 Witnesses to establish a word in creation, the Creator by Whom all things were made was the Lord Jesus Christ. I contend this point because in regards to the creation of man, I believe the Word had asked the Father to create man in "our" image and after "our" likeness and when the Father agrees, then the Triune God as the One God created man in "His image".

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This must be the proper application because we see this testimony from the apostle John.

John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.....10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe in One God, Father, Almighty, is true, but Creator of heaven and earth is not a title He would give Himself but to His Son. When the Son had died on the cross, there was an unexplainable darkness in the world from the 6th hour to the 9th hour and since He is the Light that light the world, and light every man in the world, when our Creator took all our sins on the cross, the effect was shown in creation by that unexplainable darkness. Thallus, a secular historian unreasonably concluded that it was an eclipse, but eclipse lasts only minutes, whereas the darkness was for hours. Plus, the Passover was to be held 15 days from the new moon as it is Jewish traditions so that means there was a full moon that day so there is no way it was an eclipse of any kind. So the light of the full moon and the sun went out from the 6th hour to the 9th hour. Secular reports stated that the light from the stars could still be seen. ( Mayhap a mercy for seafaring vessels ).

Anyway, God the Father and the Holy Spirit agreed with the Word to establish a word in creation and even for the creation of man, but I believe the Father with the Holy Spirit as does scripture would give the title of Creator to the Son.
 
Active Member
I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. KJV

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. KJV

I fail to see why it is necessary to separate "I believe" as a line with those 2 references. Especially when it is leading into the line about the Father and yet both verses are about the Son.

One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: KJV

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. KJV

Those 2 references are okay, although I would think that if you combine "One God Father" ; Ephesians 4:6 would suffice.

Father (Matthew 6: 9)

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. KJV

I think it would be better to combine One God Father and just have Ephesians 4:6 & Matthew 6:9 as a proving that line..

Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them. KJV

That is where it gets sticky because the Father did not appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because Jesus said that no man has seen God the Father at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. KJV

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. KJV

Jesus has seen the Father, but no man ever did. So Who was the God that men had seen in the O.T. ?

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.... 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? KJV

Did Jesus said anything for which the Jews would not believe Him for saying?

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. KJV

What day is Jesus talking about wherein Abraham was glad? Was it this day?

Genesis 12:7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

How about this?

Genesis 17:1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, KJV

Or was it this day?

Genesis 18:1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: 4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: 5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

I believe it was that day because the Lord said that Sarah would have a son for why he was glad to see Him that day.

Other evidence of the Lord appearing to men such as Isaac and Jacob.

Genesis 26:1And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar. 2 And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:

Genesis 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

So the Father was not the God men had seen in the O.T. that appeared unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but it was Jesus Christ as He was known as Jehovah before His incarnation as the Son of Man.

Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them. KJV

Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)

Genesis 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. KJV

As per the second post, I believe the Father with the Holy Spirit would give the title of Creator to the Son even though as the One Triune God, that was how the Son established a word in creation and for creating man in "our" image.

and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16)

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: KJV

Again that scriptural reference has nothing to do with God the Father being the Creator but testifying of the Son by Whom all things were made.

See why it is necessary to prove all things by the actual scripture? That site thinks breaking up the lines in the Nicene creed with scriptural references without actually checking what it says will prove the Nicene creed of 381 A.D. It does not.

Makes you wonder where else they messed up on in modifying the Nicene creed of 325 A.D. in 381 A.D..
 
Active Member
and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? KJV

I am not sure Acts 11:17 is the best verse for that line.

Is this a better verse below?

1 Corinthians 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. KJV

Can any one come up with a better one?

Onward...

Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16)

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God. KJV

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. KJV

Matthew 14:33 is pretty good one to use to prove the deity of Christ as they did worshipped Him as God for being the Son of God, but those are both good references for identifying the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

begotten (John 1: 18; 3: 16)

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. KJV

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. KJV

Those two are pretty good verses above.

begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

I believe "begotten" is referring to Jesus in His incarnated state since He had to be in His incarnated state to declare that He has seen the Father to others ( hence referring to before His incarnation ) in John 1:18.

Since God gave His only begotten Son by His incarnation so that after His death and resurrection and ascension, any one that believes in Him will have eternal life.

I just think it may be misleading to say He was begotten of the Father before all ages for that would imply the Son was created when begotten is only referring to His incarnated state to give His life as a ransom for many. Jesus had always existed with God the Father and the Holy Ghost as God of the Triune God and so begotten is only referring His incarnated state as the Son of Man.

So in other words.. scratch that line "begotten of the Father before all ages" from that Nicene creed of 381 A.D.

I am open to correction on that conclusion but it seems sound to me as if the Lord has confirmed this as true. Unless somebody else has scripture that says otherwise.
 
Top