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Presuppostional Apologetics have given many a headache.

Active
It's interesting that he talks about presuppostional apologetics yet starts with the wrong presuppositions.
I have to laugh sometimes when listening to a theologian doing Apologetics.

It might be great for scholors , but trying to bring complexity to most of us boggles the mind .

After hearing a long winded version of the symolism ' the rock giving water in the desert for 40 yrs ( Moses ) ' i replied with , the mana that came from heaven and the water that came from the Rock . ( later to be revealed as Jesus [ New Testiment ] ) is the very same meal that Jesus asked of His Disciples at the breaking of the bread . " This Is my body " " this Is my blood " . It is a practice started by Jesus and carried out by His Disciples afterwards .

Oddly enough, at this time , the Protestants rarely continue this, even though it began well before the Catholic Church implimented it.

Maybe we should actually follow what Jesus instructed us to do, instead of telling God what we want to do
 
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I have to laugh sometimes when listening to a theologian doing Apologetics.

It might be great for scholors , but trying to bring complexity to most of us boggles the mind .

After hearing a long winded version of the symolism ' the rock giving water in the desert for 40 yrs ( Moses ) ' i replied with , the mana that came from heaven and the water that came from the Rock . ( later to be revealed as Jesus [ New Testiment ] ) is the very same meal that Jesus asked of His Disciples at the breaking of the bread . " This Is my body " " this Is my blood " . It is a practice started by Jesus and carried out by His Disciples afterwards .

Oddly enough, at this time , the Protestants rarely continue this, even though it began well before the Catholic Church implimented it.

Maybe we should actually follow what Jesus instructed us to do, instead of telling God what we want to do
Right? The Gospel is simple enough for a child. What I find with many theologians is that they are very well educated in what their denomination teaches. However, I find few that are as well educated on what the Bible teaches
 
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And it is sad, when people have studied hard all their lives and given themselves wholly unto the declaration of "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ". And then you have the people of this world cast their names out us evil and mock the very God that have gifted them and sent them for the "edification" unto the body of Christ.

For I thank God for sending Men, such as "James White", R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Josh Peters, John Calvin, John Knox, John Hux, William Tyndale, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther, Aurlius Augustine, Irenus, Athanasius, Ambrose, Origen, polycarp,Tertullian, John Bunyan, John Chrysostom and countless other "Minister and "Theologians" has bless my life and I thank GOD. Yes. I do belong to the camp and the school of Biblical thought patterns of the men most despise. And I am not ashamed to be in their number. And if it comes to pass I will be glad to sit down beside them at the "Coronation" table. And discuss some the events they had to endure and how glad I am that they endured that i might endure my course by the grace of GOD.

Yes i love the ones many dispise.
 
Active
And it is sad, when people have studied hard all their lives and given themselves wholly unto the declaration of "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ". And then you have the people of this world cast their names out us evil and mock the very God that have gifted them and sent them for the "edification" unto the body of Christ.

For I thank God for sending Men, such as "James White", R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, Josh Peters, John Calvin, John Knox, John Hux, William Tyndale, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, Martin Luther, Aurlius Augustine, Irenus, Athanasius, Ambrose, Origen, polycarp,Tertullian, John Bunyan, John Chrysostom and countless other "Minister and "Theologians" has bless my life and I thank GOD. Yes. I do belong to the camp and the school of Biblical thought patterns of the men most despise. And I am not ashamed to be in their number. And if it comes to pass I will be glad to sit down beside them at the "Coronation" table. And discuss some the events they had to endure and how glad I am that they endured that i might endure my course by the grace of GOD.

Yes i love the ones many dispise.
No one said they despise anyone. I find them misguided, but no one said they were despised. I used to study some of these guys and what they teach. I can see where their teachings move away from the Biblical model. But, it's not just them. The majority of theologians today have strayed from the Biblical model. Too many approach the Bible using presuppositions that they were "taught" rather than acquired from the Bible itself.

Doctrines are typically built one on another. So, if a foundational doctrine is wrong, it's likely that there will be further errors down the line. That's what has happened. Errors entered early on and once accepted became the foundation of further errors. There aren't enough theologians who are willing to seek out those errors and eliminate them. A main reason being, if one goes against "orthodoxy" they're branded a heretic and their career is over and they'll never be one of those "great men of faith".

The Reformation was a rejection of the Catholic Church. As is often the case, when one pushes back against something they tend to go too far. That's what has happened here. In pushing back on the Catholic Church's indulgences and "works" the reformers went overboard the other way and said works have no role, it is grace and only grace,. Nothing a man does can play any role. It is completely God. Yet we find Scripture that refutes this idea.
 
Active
Right? The Gospel is simple enough for a child. What I find with many theologians is that they are very well educated in what their denomination teaches. However, I find few that are as well educated on what the Bible teaches
That is very true and it becomes a problem as well. Because the biggest thing gets that gets missed out on is that we are still all Brothers and Sisters in Christ. And the errors of the individual denominations lean towards elitism in each of those denominations.

This is not saying that denominations are bad in fact I admire a number of them. And this is certainly not saying that non-denominational is the way to go because that itself is another type of denomination.

What should be stressed is the concept of the laws Jesus Place forward love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself
 
Active
No one said they despise anyone. I find them misguided, but no one said they were despised. I used to study some of these guys and what they teach. I can see where their teachings move away from the Biblical model. But, it's not just them. The majority of theologians today have strayed from the Biblical model. Too many approach the Bible using presuppositions that they were "taught" rather than acquired from the Bible itself.

Doctrines are typically built one on another. So, if a foundational doctrine is wrong, it's likely that there will be further errors down the line. That's what has happened. Errors entered early on and once accepted became the foundation of further errors. There aren't enough theologians who are willing to seek out those errors and eliminate them. A main reason being, if one goes against "orthodoxy" they're branded a heretic and their career is over and they'll never be one of those "great men of faith".

The Reformation was a rejection of the Catholic Church. As is often the case, when one pushes back against something they tend to go too far. That's what has happened here. In pushing back on the Catholic Church's indulgences and "works" the reformers went overboard the other way and said works have no role, it is grace and only grace,. Nothing a man does can play any role. It is completely God. Yet we find Scripture that refutes this idea.
[/QUOTe
sad
 
Active
No one said they despise anyone. I find them misguided, but no one said they were despised. I used to study some of these guys and what they teach. I can see where their teachings move away from the Biblical model. But, it's not just them. The majority of theologians today have strayed from the Biblical model. Too many approach the Bible using presuppositions that they were "taught" rather than acquired from the Bible itself.

Doctrines are typically built one on another. So, if a foundational doctrine is wrong, it's likely that there will be further errors down the line. That's what has happened. Errors entered early on and once accepted became the foundation of further errors. There aren't enough theologians who are willing to seek out those errors and eliminate them. A main reason being, if one goes against "orthodoxy" they're branded a heretic and their career is over and they'll never be one of those "great men of faith".

The Reformation was a rejection of the Catholic Church. As is often the case, when one pushes back against something they tend to go too far. That's what has happened here. In pushing back on the Catholic Church's indulgences and "works" the reformers went overboard the other way and said works have no role, it is grace and only grace,. Nothing a man does can play any role. It is completely God. Yet we find Scripture that refutes this idea.
The term works is probably the most misunderstood term probably in all of Christendom. Both modern-day Catholics and Protestants Miss understand the term all together.

What works is is Christ working through you. And this is whether you know it or not.

The reason that I can state that with confidence is a person may not know that Christ is working through them has to do with scripture.

You may remember Jesus speaking about the judgement and the King and how the virtuous who come before the king art old come with me to go into Paradise . And their response was when did we see you and Jesus told them when you fed the hungry when you clothed the naked when you helped others you did it for him as well. These virtuous did not recognize Jesus. And yet their works where Christ was in them gave them the Grace to enter Heaven
 
Active
The term works is probably the most misunderstood term probably in all of Christendom. Both modern-day Catholics and Protestants Miss understand the term all together.

What works is is Christ working through you. And this is whether you know it or not.

The reason that I can state that with confidence is a person may not know that Christ is working through them has to do with scripture.

You may remember Jesus speaking about the judgement and the King and how the virtuous who come before the king art old come with me to go into Paradise . And their response was when did we see you and Jesus told them when you fed the hungry when you clothed the naked when you helped others you did it for him as well. These virtuous did not recognize Jesus. And yet their works where Christ was in them gave them the Grace to enter Heaven
My perspective is a little different.
 
Active
That is very true and it becomes a problem as well. Because the biggest thing gets that gets missed out on is that we are still all Brothers and Sisters in Christ. And the errors of the individual denominations lean towards elitism in each of those denominations.

This is not saying that denominations are bad in fact I admire a number of them. And this is certainly not saying that non-denominational is the way to go because that itself is another type of denomination.

What should be stressed is the concept of the laws Jesus Place forward love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself
Yeah, my biggest issue with denominations is that they divide the body. Many don't even socialize outside of their denomination
 
Active
Yeah, my biggest issue with denominations is that they divide the body. Many don't even socialize outside of their denomination
I dont really have any issues with denominations per say .

The Father ( God ) showed me once how there were many in all churches that loved Him, and that He loved all of them
 
Active
If the body of christ is divide how can it stand?
Jesus said:
"If a kingdom is divide against itself, it cannot stand, if a house is divide against itself., it cannot stand. And if satan is divide and rises against himself, he cannot stand, his end has come. "

Judgement will begin at the house of God!

"Indeed, none of you should suffer as a murderer or thief or wrongdoer, or even as a meddler. But if you suffer as a follower of Christ, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?"…
 
Active
If the body of christ is divide how can it stand?
Jesus said:
"If a kingdom is divide against itself, it cannot stand, if a house is divide against itself., it cannot stand. And if satan is divide and rises against himself, he cannot stand, his end has come. "

Judgement will begin at the house of God!

"Indeed, none of you should suffer as a murderer or thief or wrongdoer, or even as a meddler. But if you suffer as a follower of Christ, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God?"…
It can be sad when we only see things though human eyes . But my brother , find your hope in Christ. Because God's ways are not ours . And Love is greater than time and space. It has no boundries
 
Active
It can be sad when we only see things though human eyes . But my brother , find your hope in Christ. Because God's ways are not ours . And Love is greater than time and space. It has no boundries
Are you backwards? Jesus said those words not me! God also said: " he who have eyes let him see" LOL Because if you cannot see with human eyes you cannot see the written word. And if you cannot see the written word you cannot think with a human mind.

" Love the Lord God with all of your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind"

"And let this Mind be in you as it was also in christ Jesus"

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, THEN you will be able to test and approve what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of GOD."
 
Active
I dont really have any issues with denominations per say .

The Father ( God ) showed me once how there were many in all churches that loved Him, and that He loved all of them
I don't doubt that there are sincere believers in all of them. I just think they're bad for the body. Many are based on doctrinal positions. I wonder why, since we all claim to follow the Bible, we don't come together to reconcile our differences in belief. I suspect I have several reasons but that's a different discussion. Paul chastised the believers in Corinth for denominations. They claimed to be of different teachers. I am of Cephas, I am of Paul, etc. Today it's Arminius, Luther, Calvin, etc.
 
Active
I don't doubt that there are sincere believers in all of them. I just think they're bad for the body. Many are based on doctrinal positions. I wonder why, since we all claim to follow the Bible, we don't come together to reconcile our differences in belief. I suspect I have several reasons but that's a different discussion. Paul chastised the believers in Corinth for denominations. They claimed to be of different teachers. I am of Cephas, I am of Paul, etc. Today it's Arminius, Luther, Calvin, etc.

They did not have bibles, especially new testaments in the early movement of Christianity. So, people had to go on what a person told them. Everyone did not hear the words of Jesus. There was no testament books. People learn about christ by word of mouth. How can they know about something if there is no "proclaimer" and how can they proclaim if they are not sent? So, Many heard about this new religion, by. Paul, by Philip, by John, Bill, Greorge, Arthur, Judas, by Joesph. And many others that went back to their own countries from the Penetcost festivies. They did not take back pamphlets and bibles about the message of The Messiah and that He had come and died and rose from the grave and spoke about eternal life. They only repeated about what they have heard from other men who had been empowered to be witinesses by the the "Paraclete".. so we cannot be so harsh about followers, but maybe we can be harsh on people who are not learned in the truth of God but has went on to take a initiative upon themselves and has proclaim themselves as teachers sent by GOD. To teach and instruct in the way of righteousness and GOD has not sent them. But these people has said God sent them and God has not! They are nothing more than people having a desire to teach. And God has not sent them! "By their fruits you will know them". What are their credentials, how many hours of studying, what books have they studied, are they familiar with words, what school of thoughts patterns are they engage in, are they engaged in "Sound doctrine" how do they feel about "Theology" and do they know the difference between Theology and religion! And do they understand the difference between Gods word and mans word. Even in the bible. And do they know the difference between a bible and the word of God? If God sent them, God would make sure they are well equip and well train.

For many have went and was not sent by God. Just because a person believes God has sent them, Does not mean God has! Just because they have faith in believing God has gifted them does not mean they have been gifted to instruct and lead others into the things of GOD. For the devil is a perfect deceiver! And he has deceived many into taking up that garment! And they have become enemies of "Sound Doctrine" and "Theology proper". For Venom has been spew through out christendom in various part concerning "Sound Doctrine" and "Theology proper". Is a true statement. And eisegesis has become the preferred method of biblical interpretation and exegesis has become a art of unknown, let alone frown upon and dis tastful and spew upon the ground. And the way of righteousness is evil spoken of on both sides of the fence.

Prophecy is still coming to pass, no need for new prophecy, prophecy of old have yet to come and be fulfilled.

And many still no not believe the word of God that lies in front of our own eyes.

" God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world"

As if The words of Jesus is not Good enough in these last days. It is sad. When people seek the prophecies of others.
 
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Hi PloughBoy,

If we take the historical perspective we find that it was common in NT times for Greeks to associate themselves with a school of thought. Often that school of thought was labeled after the teacher. So, people would say, I am of so and so, meaning they followed that philosophy. This is what the Corithians were doing. I am of Paull, I am if Apollos, etc. That is what Paul condemned. We have the same thing today. Clavinsists hold to the teaching of Calvin. Lutheran hold to the teaching of Luther. Arminians hold to the teaching of Arminius. Paul's point was that the messenger was irrelevant but rather the message was important. That would be the same today except that they don't all bring the same message as those did in the early days. Today we have all kinds of teachers claiming all kinds of things. Unlike the early Christian's we have to compare every teaching to the Scriptures to see what is true and what isn't. However, that requires that we understand the Sceuptures correctly. Clearly some don't as we have Chrsitians teaching opposing doctrines from the same book. Someone has to be wrong. Thus, someone is misunderstanding Scripture. I agree with you that many have gone out and are in error. That makes it all the more important that we check everything against Scripture.

History also helps us determine what is true as does an understanding of the early church and what it taught.
 

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