Predestined?

[Butch5]

Hello,

Often I hear Christians debating the subject of Predestination. Some say that God chose who would be saved before the foundation of the world and some say that God, through foreknowledge, knew before hand who would choose to believe and chose these. My question is can anyone prove either of these statements from the Scriptures?

 

[Enxu]

For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:29)

It is very clear from this verse that the only predestination God had was people being conformed to the image of His Son, and it is with regards to people He first foreknew. Which means before any mankind came into existence, He already know who will become His people through the free will choices of every person. There was no predestination on the part of God about who will be saved or condemned.

 

[Curtis]

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

God did not predestine anyone "randomly" (which means without purpose) It is always based on his foreknowledge according to his purpose.

 

[BlessedBeyondBelief]

Its all semantics and perspective.
God, who is outside of time, knows the end from the beginning, so its already written to Him. Its predetermined (not controlled).
But to us, in a realm with time (and free will,) we are experiencing what has been written, so there is no predetermination to us.

Ultimately we cannot fathom being outside o time, so we must operate from mans perspective of real-time realization, therefore,
no predetermination...

But that's just one mans perspective....

 

[Curtis]

Its all semantics and perspective.
God, who is outside of time, knows the end from the beginning, so its already written to Him. Its predetermined (not controlled).
But to us, in a realm with time (and free will,) we are experiencing what has been written, so there is no predetermination to us.

Ultimately we cannot fathom being outside o time, so we must operate from mans perspective of real-time realization, therefore,
no predetermination...

But that's just one mans perspective....

A Christian must see things from "two" perspectives. In the flesh, where we are seeing a transforming of not only the world as it is getting worse, and passing away, but also from God's perspective as seeing the end results already completed as it was determined from the beginning. One of the most popular scriptures quoted is....

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But very rarely is the next verse ever quoted that completes the thought......

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for the replies, but what I'm looking for is where the Bible actually teaches one of these ideas. The reason I asked the question was to bring up the point that the Bible doesn't teach either of these ideas. They both come from inferences people draw from certain passages of Scripture. Since they're inferences and not Biblical teaching I would submit that we can't say they're Biblical. Since they're inferences I would also submit that they can be wrong. The Predestination debate is a rather large one in Christian circles and continues to rage on. I don't believe it has to. One side claims that God chose who would be saved before the foundation of the world and the other claims that God knew who would later believe and chose them. It is my contention that neither of these claims has anything to do with what the Bible calls Predestination. The word Predestination simply means to predetermine or determine before hand. We don't find anything in Scripture that says God predetermined who would be saved. We also don't find anything that says God knew who would believe and predetermined they would be saved. So, what do we see that God did predetermine? His plan. He had predetermined a plan that He would use to redeem man. That plan included at man named Abraham. God promised him a four fold promise, that he would be the father of a great nation, that he would be the father of many nations, that all nations would be blessed through him, and that He would give him all the land he could see. That God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation shows us that God had predestined, or predetermined, the nation of Israel. If that is the case then we should find evidence of this in the Scriptures.

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. (Deut. 7:6 KJV)

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph. 1:4-5 KJV)

Here Paul talks about "us" being predestined to adoption. Who is the "us" in this passage? It is the Jews. He confirms this in verse 12.

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.1 (Eph. 1:11-12 KJV)

Here again Paul speaks of this group having been predestined. This group also had already obtained an inheritance from God. This was the Israelites. We see in verse 12 Paul says this group is, we who first trusted in Christ. A better translation would be, before hoped in the Christ. who were the ones to first have hoped in the Christ? It was the Israelites. However, we don't have to speculate because Paul tells us in Romans 9 that the adoption belongs to the Israelites.

Truth I say in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing testimony with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart --
3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ -- for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
(Rom. 9:1-5 YLT)

Paul states plainly that the adoption belongs to Israel. We also saw that God said Israel is His Son.

The word that is translated "predestinate" in the KJV only appears 6 times. Four of these refer to people and each of the 4 is a reference to Israel. Israel is the predestined or predetermined people.

Predestination in the Bible is not talking about who will or won't be saved. That whole debate is founded on a false premise. So, when you see people debating this, just know that both sides are are wrong.

 

[Acts2:38]

Thanks for the replies, but what I'm looking for is where the Bible actually teaches one of these ideas. The reason I asked the question was to bring up the point that the Bible doesn't teach either of these ideas. They both come from inferences people draw from certain passages of Scripture. Since they're inferences and not Biblical teaching I would submit that we can't say they're Biblical. Since they're inferences I would also submit that they can be wrong. The Predestination debate is a rather large one in Christian circles and continues to rage on. I don't believe it has to. One side claims that God chose who would be saved before the foundation of the world and the other claims that God knew who would later believe and chose them. It is my contention that neither of these claims has anything to do with what the Bible calls Predestination. The word Predestination simply means to predetermine or determine before hand. We don't find anything in Scripture that says God predetermined who would be saved. We also don't find anything that says God knew who would believe and predetermined they would be saved. So, what do we see that God did predetermine? His plan. He had predetermined a plan that He would use to redeem man. That plan included at man named Abraham. God promised him a four fold promise, that he would be the father of a great nation, that he would be the father of many nations, that all nations would be blessed through him, and that He would give him all the land he could see. That God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation shows us that God had predestined, or predetermined, the nation of Israel. If that is the case then we should find evidence of this in the Scriptures.

For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. (Deut. 7:6 KJV)

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: (Exod. 4:22 KJV)

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph. 1:4-5 KJV)

Here Paul talks about "us" being predestined to adoption. Who is the "us" in this passage? It is the Jews. He confirms this in verse 12.

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.1 (Eph. 1:11-12 KJV)

Here again Paul speaks of this group having been predestined. This group also had already obtained an inheritance from God. This was the Israelites. We see in verse 12 Paul says this group is, we who first trusted in Christ. A better translation would be, before hoped in the Christ. who were the ones to first have hoped in the Christ? It was the Israelites. However, we don't have to speculate because Paul tells us in Romans 9 that the adoption belongs to the Israelites.

Truth I say in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing testimony with me in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart --
3 for I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ -- for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.
(Rom. 9:1-5 YLT)

Paul states plainly that the adoption belongs to Israel. We also saw that God said Israel is His Son.

The word that is translated "predestinate" in the KJV only appears 6 times. Four of these refer to people and each of the 4 is a reference to Israel. Israel is the predestined or predetermined people.

Predestination in the Bible is not talking about who will or won't be saved. That whole debate is founded on a false premise. So, when you see people debating this, just know that both sides are are wrong.

I believe you should re-read Paul's message there.

Paul wrote Romans 9 to prove that the Jews did not have a monopoly on salvation. In fact, he shows that God had chosen to give salvation to another people (Romans 9:30-33). If you relook at Romans 9, all of it, the context will come out. The theme of Paul's lesson in Romans 9 is to show the Jews that just because they were born a Jew was not a guarantee of salvation. Often the Jews proudly proclaimed they were children of Abraham as you can read about in other books/chapters. We know for a fact Abraham did have other sons other than Issac, yet God gave only Isaac the promise. It wasn't because Issac was an amazingly special person that God had to give him that promise alone. The Lord made the promise long before Isaac was even conceived, so we can only conclude that simply being a descendant of Abraham doesn't guarantee selection by God (Romans 9:6-8).

Physical Israel has nothing to do with this anymore. Any reference to "saved" is "spiritual Israel" as foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-33.

It would be a kingdom created by Christs death burial and resurrection and Peter had the keys to open it, Hebrews 8:6; Hebrews 9:15; John 18:36; Matthew 16:18-19.

It was opened to the Jews first Acts 2

The Gentiles second Acts 10. Peter had to tell the Jews that God did also pick Gentiles too Acts 11.

Those who obey the gospel are translated/brought into that kingdom Colossians 1:13, Colossians 2:11-12; Galatians 3:26-27 which is the "spiritual Israel" as now you would be a Christian Acts 11:26 ie those in a saved state, and so there is no Jew or Greek etc Galatians 3:28-29.

So back to the OP. You bring up 2 stances, and one is wrong.

Because God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, it would stand to reason that regardless of your free will choices, God would know every move and thought from beginning to end.

It is clear in the entire bible there is free will choice. For example John 3:16 tells us that "whosoever believes". I can state scripture from front to back of bible showing free will. So again, it would stand to reason that God, who is all 3 "Omni's" would be able to "foreknow" and has indeed predestined Christians to have eternal life, all those who by their free will chose/choose to obey the gospel and become in that "saved state" and remain faithful.

So in conclusion, I see one stance as right, the other wrong. But not both wrong.

Glad you brought this up though. It is a very contested discussion on all sides and we should be afraid to bring it up.

 

[Curtis]

That plan included at man named Abraham

Abraham was not a "Jew" he was a gentile which God had chosen to become the father of the circumcision (Jews), and the uncircumcised. (gentiles) The Jews did not exist until many years after Abraham. The word “Jew” is a shorted form of the word meaning “Judah”

So, the word "Jew" is short for the word "Judean," meaning a resident of Judea, the area also now called Palestine. The word "Jew" did not mean an ethnic background or race.

The word “Hebrew” is not associated with Jew's, it is a word that describes a person who goes from one place to another. Abraham was called a “Hebrew” not because he was Jewish, but because he crossed over the river “Euphrates” to get to the Promised Land God had given him.

Abraham, though often called the "father of the Jewish nation," was a Chaldean, from Ur of the Chaldees an area of Babylon as was his wife, Sarah. Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew:

"And there came one that had escaped and told Abram the
Hebrew ..." (Gen 14:13)

“Hebrew” means "one from beyond" and is derived from Eber (or Heber, Strong's no. 5676) meaning "the region beyond" (the Euphrates)

The term Hebrew also is taken to mean "to pass" or "to cross over." Abraham "crossed over" the River Euphrates to get to the land of Canaan, from Chaldea. Chaldean was Abraham's ethnic origin. He Abraham lived long before there was ever was a Jew.

Abraham is the father of anyone who walks after the same faith steps as Abraham did!

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that HE MIGHT BE THE FATHER OF ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but WHO ALSO WALK IN THE STEPS OF THAT FAITH OF OUR FATHER ABRAHAM, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

The nation of Israel who was descendants of Issac who begat Jacob whose name was changed to “Israel” by God were “Hebrews” because they crossed the “Red Sea” on their way to get to the promised land from Egypt. When they left Egypt, Israel was made up of many ethnic groups who intermarried yet as a group they were still called Israel.

 

[Butch5]

Abraham was not a "Jew" he was a gentile which God had chosen to become the father of the circumcision (Jews), and the uncircumcised. (gentiles) The Jews did not exist until many years after Abraham. The word “Jew” is a shorted form of the word meaning “Judah”

So, the word "Jew" is short for the word "Judean," meaning a resident of Judea, the area also now called Palestine. The word "Jew" did not mean an ethnic background or race.

The word “Hebrew” is not associated with Jew's, it is a word that describes a person who goes from one place to another. Abraham was called a “Hebrew” not because he was Jewish, but because he crossed over the river “Euphrates” to get to the Promised Land God had given him.

Abraham, though often called the "father of the Jewish nation," was a Chaldean, from Ur of the Chaldees an area of Babylon as was his wife, Sarah. Abraham is referred to as a Hebrew:

"And there came one that had escaped and told Abram the
Hebrew ..." (Gen 14:13)

“Hebrew” means "one from beyond" and is derived from Eber (or Heber, Strong's no. 5676) meaning "the region beyond" (the Euphrates)

The term Hebrew also is taken to mean "to pass" or "to cross over." Abraham "crossed over" the River Euphrates to get to the land of Canaan, from Chaldea. Chaldean was Abraham's ethnic origin. He Abraham lived long before there was ever was a Jew.

Abraham is the father of anyone who walks after the same faith steps as Abraham did!

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that HE MIGHT BE THE FATHER OF ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but WHO ALSO WALK IN THE STEPS OF THAT FAITH OF OUR FATHER ABRAHAM, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

The nation of Israel who was descendants of Issac who begat Jacob whose name was changed to “Israel” by God were “Hebrews” because they crossed the “Red Sea” on their way to get to the promised land from Egypt. When they left Egypt, Israel was made up of many ethnic groups who intermarried yet as a group they were still called Israel.

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said.

 

[Curtis]

I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said.

It means Abraham being a gentile was justified by "faith" who is the father of us all who walk in the same steps of Abraham.(Rom 4:16) This was way before Israel came into existence.

 

[Butch5]

It means Abraham being a gentile was justified by "faith" who is the father of us all who walk in the same steps of Abraham.(Rom 4:16) This was way before Israel came into existence.

Ok, but what does that have to do with what I said?

 

[Butch5]

I believe you should re-read Paul's message there.

Paul wrote Romans 9 to prove that the Jews did not have a monopoly on salvation. In fact, he shows that God had chosen to give salvation to another people (Romans 9:30-33). If you relook at Romans 9, all of it, the context will come out. The theme of Paul's lesson in Romans 9 is to show the Jews that just because they were born a Jew was not a guarantee of salvation. Often the Jews proudly proclaimed they were children of Abraham as you can read about in other books/chapters. We know for a fact Abraham did have other sons other than Issac, yet God gave only Isaac the promise. It wasn't because Issac was an amazingly special person that God had to give him that promise alone. The Lord made the promise long before Isaac was even conceived, so we can only conclude that simply being a descendant of Abraham doesn't guarantee selection by God (Romans 9:6-8).

Physical Israel has nothing to do with this anymore. Any reference to "saved" is "spiritual Israel" as foretold in Jeremiah 31:31-33.

It would be a kingdom created by Christs death burial and resurrection and Peter had the keys to open it, Hebrews 8:6; Hebrews 9:15; John 18:36; Matthew 16:18-19.

It was opened to the Jews first Acts 2

The Gentiles second Acts 10. Peter had to tell the Jews that God did also pick Gentiles too Acts 11.

Those who obey the gospel are translated/brought into that kingdom Colossians 1:13, Colossians 2:11-12; Galatians 3:26-27 which is the "spiritual Israel" as now you would be a Christian Acts 11:26 ie those in a saved state, and so there is no Jew or Greek etc Galatians 3:28-29.

So back to the OP. You bring up 2 stances, and one is wrong.


Because God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, it would stand to reason that regardless of your free will choices, God would know every move and thought from beginning to end.


It is clear in the entire bible there is free will choice. For example John 3:16 tells us that "whosoever believes". I can state scripture from front to back of bible showing free will. So again, it would stand to reason that God, who is all 3 "Omni's" would be able to "foreknow" and has indeed predestined Christians to have eternal life, all those who by their free will chose/choose to obey the gospel and become in that "saved state" and remain faithful.

So in conclusion, I see one stance as right, the other wrong. But not both wrong.

Glad you brought this up though. It is a very contested discussion on all sides and we should be afraid to bring it up.

Hi Acts 2:38,

Thanks for the reply. I agree with some of what you've said. I would submit however, that in Romans 9 Paul is explaining how the promises of God to Israel have not failed, not how the Gentiles are included. That would be chapter 11. When Paul says they are not all Israel who are of Israel, he is not including the Gentiles. He's saying that not everyone born of the man Israel, Jacob, are considered Israel. However, the are all Israel's physical seed.

I would also submit that Israel as a nation has not been done away with. The new covenant was made with them.

31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them1, says the LORD.
33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. (Jer. 31:31-33 NKJ)

It's with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Also, Paul states in Romans 9 that those things he listed belong to Israel. He says it's concerning the fathers that Christ came. Getting back to the topic this is what is being talked about when the Bible speaks of being predestined. Did God's plan originally include the Gentiles? Sure. However, there isn't anything in the Scriptures. that refers to the Gentiles as being predestined. If anything we find Paul saying that the Gentiles were without God.

You said,

"Because God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, it would stand to reason that regardless of your free will choices, God would know every move and thought from beginning to end."
I'm not sure you can prove the underlined part from Scripture. I agree that God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, but are things in the future that don't exist things? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think we can prove you're correct. It may have to be one of those things we just don't know.

 

[Acts2:38]

I would submit however, that in Romans 9 Paul is explaining how the promises of God to Israel have not failed, not how the Gentiles are included. That would be chapter 11. When Paul says they are not all Israel who are of Israel, he is not including the Gentiles. He's saying that not everyone born of the man Israel, Jacob, are considered Israel. However, the are all Israel's physical seed.

I would also submit that Israel as a nation has not been done away with.

Hello,

As Curtis said, Abraham was not a Jew. Nor were they referred to as Jews until sometime after the Exodus. The promise was made long before they became Israelites and established a kingdom. Long before. The first promise of Christ was made in Genesis 3 after Adam brought sin into the world, Genesis 3:15. The bible also states that Abraham was informed of the gospel to come Galatians 3:8 while at the same time stating that it was for the gentiles too. In short, Abraham knew that Jew and Gentile alike would be saved through Christ.

So I really would not put so much emphasis on the Physical Israelite nation anymore. The covenant is for "the jew first and then to the gentile" (Romans 1:16) in Christs kingdom of which those saved are called christians.

The Jew first Acts 2

Then the Gentile Acts 10

= Spiritual Kingdom John 18:36; Matthew 16:18-19

As promised by God to Abraham

Genesis 12:1-3

"All families...shall be blessed". That is because it foretells of Christ and the eventual promise to all who should believe to be saved. Has nothing to do with the physical kingdom of Israel.

I'm not sure you can prove the underlined part from Scripture. I agree that God is omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, but are things in the future that don't exist things? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think we can prove you're correct. It may have to be one of those things we just don't know.

I would like to point out the contradiction in your statement.

You agree God is all 3 "omnis".

Yet you state that God there are future things God cant know ("but are things in the future that don't exist things?").

There are actually verses that state God knows all even before it happens. So, I believe we can prove it and we can know. Scripture reveals it to us.

1 John 3:20

Hebrews 4:13

Psalm 44:21; 139:1-4; 147:5

Isaiah 46:9-10

Thats just to name a smidgen of verses.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure "

Have a safe and wonderful night my friend.

 

[Acts2:38]

Ok, but what does that have to do with what I said?

Its to bring to evidence that the physical nation of Israel is not the one chosen people anymore. It is Christians, which is the spiritual Israel, that are the elect. They are the ones who are chosen and will have eternal life. Abraham was told of this, Galatians 3:8; Genesis 12

 

[Butch5]

Hello,

As Curtis said, Abraham was not a Jew. Nor were they referred to as Jews until sometime after the Exodus. The promise was made long before they became Israelites and established a kingdom. Long before. The first promise of Christ was made in Genesis 3 after Adam brought sin into the world, Genesis 3:15. The bible also states that Abraham was informed of the gospel to come Galatians 3:8 while at the same time stating that it was for the gentiles too. In short, Abraham knew that Jew and Gentile alike would be saved through Christ.

So I really would not put so much emphasis on the Physical Israelite nation anymore. The covenant is for "the jew first and then to the gentile" (Romans 1:16) in Christs kingdom of which those saved are called christians.

The Jew first Acts 2

Then the Gentile Acts 10

= Spiritual Kingdom John 18:36; Matthew 16:18-19

As promised by God to Abraham

Genesis 12:1-3

"All families...shall be blessed". That is because it foretells of Christ and the eventual promise to all who should believe to be saved. Has nothing to do with the physical kingdom of Israel.

I don't see where you've countered what I said. You speak of a spiritual kingdom yet Jeremiah speaks of a new covenant with both houses of Israel. Are you saying that both houses of Israel are spirit and not literal?

You've acknowledged that it's to the Jew first. I said that predestination applies to the Jews. No one has shown anything showing the Gentiles were predestined. Paul said that the Gentiles become Abraham's seed through being baptized into Christ. This is the grafting in that he speaks of in Romans 11. No one is part of the New Covenant unless they are grafted into the Cultivate olive tree.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;1
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.1
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Rom. 11:13-28 KJV)

This is the argument Paul is making to the Gentiles. I think it's pretty clear that this is national Israel. He says they have been blinded in part until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. Its's not over for Israel. They still play a part in God's plan. The Christian hope comes through Israel.

I would like to point out the contradiction in your statement.

You agree God is all 3 "omnis".

Yet you state that God there are future things God cant know ("but are things in the future that don't exist things?").

There are actually verses that state God knows all even before it happens. So, I believe we can prove it and we can know. Scripture reveals it to us.

1 John 3:20

Hebrews 4:13

Psalm 44:21; 139:1-4; 147:5

Isaiah 46:9-10

Thats just to name a smidgen of verses.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure "

Have a safe and wonderful night my friend.

I'm not sure where you see a contradiction. You said that God know everything. I agree. However, a thought that I will have ten years from now is not a thing, it doesn't exist. You said that God knows this thought. I said, I don't think you can prove that. You posted a few verses of Scripture. I agree God knows what He will do in the future. When God warned of the flood, He knew He was going to do that. When He warned the Israelites about Nebuchadnezzar coming, He knew he was going to bring that about. But that's different than saying He knows a thought that someone will have in the future. I'm not saying that He doesn't know it, I don't know. I'm saying I don't think you can prove that from Scripture. I see quite a few Christians basing their doctrines on the idea that God knows everyone's future thoughts. If that can be proven from Scripture, great. If it can't be, then those Christians are building doctrines on inferences and that is dangerous.

 

[Butch5]

Its to bring to evidence that the physical nation of Israel is not the one chosen people anymore. It is Christians, which is the spiritual Israel, that are the elect. They are the ones who are chosen and will have eternal life. Abraham was told of this, Galatians 3:8; Genesis 12

I disagree. I think it's pretty clear in Romans 11 that Israel is not done. In Romans 9 Paul lists several promises that belong to Israel. We see Paul saying the same thing in Ephesians that the Gentiles who were far off have been brought near and are no longer stranger but fellow citizens with the saints.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:1
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph. 2:11-19 KJV)

Here again we seethe Gentiles being included into the promises to Israel. Israel hasn't been cast off. The Gentiles have been grafted in. Israel has not been replaced. Christians have been grafted into the promises that were made to Israel.

 

[BlessedBeyondBelief]

Israel hasn't been cast off. The Gentiles have been grafted in. Israel has not been replaced. Christians have been grafted into the promises that were made to Israel.

I approve of this message.

 

[Acts2:38]

You speak of a spiritual kingdom

To clarify, I mean Christians, those who are in a saved state by obedience to the gospel. Thats why I keep putting "" around spiritual kingdom. Since Christ mentioned his "kingdom is not of this world", among other scriptures.

Kingdom was used interchangeably in Matthew 16:18-19, with church. The church IS the kingdom. Just this fact alone conflicts with Israel being Gods chosen kingdom now days. Does God have 2 kingdoms at one time? Or did he state one kingdom is to come Daniel 2:44 for example? (I'm assuming for a moment you are not in the "premillennialist belief")

The kingdom is the church, the church is the people who obey the gospel (Christians ie John 3:3 & 5).

Church isnt the building. It is the people. The Greek word for church is ekklēsia. Strongs G1577.

I really honestly dont see where God says there are two kingdoms for us today, one being physical and the other spiritual. I see a OT past physical one, but now a "spiritual" one. A "kingdom not of this world".

You've acknowledged that it's to the Jew first. I said that predestination applies to the Jews. No one has shown anything showing the Gentiles were predestined.

Yes, I did say that. Jew is not really a race of people but a religion. Hebrew or "Israelites" is the people, Jew is the religion. Hence when Paul states along the lines of Galatians 3:28.

The Israel now days is clearly Jewish religion. Would you agree?

Jewish religion is suppose to follow the OT laws right? However, Christ blotted out the old, and gave a new one.

Basically, being Jewish, is a slap in the face to Christ. However, being a Christian is obeying the gospel. You are neither Jew nor Greek, but Christian in Christs kingdom.

So who are the chosen?

A group of people who hold to an OT law that is not perfect and has been abolished or....

A group of people who obey the gospel and the new covenant promise?

Only one answer is right, and those are the chosen, the people in Christs kingdom. The other is in disobedience and not in a saved state. Therefore, not a chosen elect people.

Lastly, I did prove the point but you failed to see it.

Abraham was not Jewish. He was not an Israelite. Abraham was told of the gospel promise. The gospel promise is for everyone. It stands to reason that if Abraham was told of the gospel promise to come, long before the 10 commandments was established, then it did indeed prophecy the gentiles to be saved etc.

Genesis 12:1-3 - All the families of the earth includes gentiles wouldn't you say?

Galatians 3:8 - God foresaw, gave the gospel to Abraham, foreseeing that he would justify the "heathen". Gentiles that is. Through faith. And all nations will be blessed.

All nations includes everyone on earth right? Not just Israel?

So you can see that this promise was made LONG before Israel was the "chosen physical kingdom" as Abraham was 500 plus years before Israel became a nation and had the 10 commandments and tabernacle and such.

However, a thought that I will have ten years from now is not a thing, it doesn't exist.

According to you its not a thing. God lives outside of time. You live in it.

Isaiah 46:10

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure "

 

[Butch5]

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[Butch5]

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