You had mentioned "The doctrine of Christ coming to save all is actually not found anywhere in Scripture" and "Any place where it speaks of him coming to save the world, it is referring to humanity without distinction (Jew & Gentile alike) and not humanity without exception (all will be saved). The plan of salvation is not simply a possibility for all." Where do you find that in Scripture?
It isn't so much a matter of where can I find it in Scripture as much as it is Scripture as a whole supporting it. In fact, one could ask the same question of your theory. While there appear to be many verses stating that men have a choice and God leaves it up to their choice, there are none that emphatically declare this. However, on the flip side, there are MANY verses that emphatically declare our inability to do so. Because only one side is certain, we are compelled to reevaluate the side that is sketchy and uncertain. I actually have some sermons I wrote/delivered on the subject of our inability that can be found in
MY PERSONAL BLOG. Feel free to read it if you have time.
TheDJ said:
The bible says "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29705">4</sup>who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29706">5</sup>For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29707">6</sup>who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time." (1 Tim 2:3-6.)
From this and other passages I provided it shows that God loves every human being and the death of Christ was for every man which makes it possible for anyone to receive the gift of salvation.
Except that this passage says nothing of the death of Christ nor universal atonement. It simply speaks of God's love. Unfortunately, His love is not what saves. It is the blood of Christ alone which is intended only for the Elect. I desire to sleep in but I know I have a purpose of going to work. I desire to not spank my son but I know I have a purpose of raising him. Desires do not always mesh with purpose. Again, we see Christ nowhere in this passage.
However, we do see an apparent contradiction between God's will and His desires that we need to clarify so as not to cause confusion. Note that in 2 Peter 3:9, it says that God is "not
wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" whereas in 1 Timothy 2:4 it says God "
desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." On the surface, they appear to be saying the same exact thing. Despite this, the Greek does not support it. In 2 Peter 3:9, the word
boulomai is used whereas in 1 Timothy 2:4, the word
thelō is used.
Thelō often refers to the general desires of God whereas
boulomai is never used this way.
Boulomai ALWAYS refers to a purposeful will. Despite being similar in English, they are vastly different in the Greek.
As a result, we come to 2 conclusions:
1) God desires that all would be saved
2) God has purposefully WILLED that all will come to repentance
Now, before you go too far, you need to realize I am not preaching universalism here. I clearly believe many will go to Hell. However, an Arminian would be hard pressed to argue universalism if they truly want to cling to their current understanding when faced with the Greek. Either all will come to repentance or there is a deeper lying issue at hand in context of desires versus purposeful will.
The proper context is that God "takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Exodus 18:23). Despite this, there are select individuals whom God has given to Christ out of the world (John 17:6).
As for the ransom for all, we need to understand the purpose of salvation. It was not to make something possible. It was substitutionary. Christ paid the price so that we could go free. If a man pays the fees charged to another man on trial, does the judge rule that the guilty party must pay as well? Certainly not! The fee was paid. The debt was settled. Restitution was made. This is what the atoning blood of Christ accomplishes. It is not empty waiting on man to make it active. It is 100% effective in its purpose of substitutionary atonement. There is an old saying that goes something to the effect of "the atonement is sufficient for all but efficient only for the Elect." As John MacArthur says, "Christ’s atonement is therefore unlimited as to its sufficiency, but limited as to its application." This is because many are called but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14). For further reading, my sermon on limited atonement can be found
HERE ON MY BLOG as well.
I do want to go back to my 2 points though. If not all will be saved yet God purposes that none will perish, we are forced to look at the context of the Greek. There is obviously a group of individuals who are set apart from the rest of the world. This group has been promised to persevere (John 6:39), has been given to the Son by the Father (John 17:6), and has been called out of the dominion of Satan unto God (Acts 26:18).
TheDJ said:
Hebrews 2:9 states: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
Jesus tasted death for everyone, and everyone means everyone, not just some. Whoever wants salvation can have it.
This is quite true. However, in God's greater purpose, not all will want it. Only those who have been regenerated by the Spirit will EVER have a desire for the things of God because, apart from this, the things of God are foolishness to them (1 Corinthians 1:18, 1 Corinthians 2:14). Because of this, it is quite limited in effectiveness of who it was meant for; the Elect.
TheDJ said:
Above I mentioned Revelation 22:17 "The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life."
This shows that the atonement is not limited, it says Whoever, not only certain people.
And Jesus commands us to obey the commandments as well. He commands us to obey every single one of them in all ways at all times. Just because we are told to do something does not make it possible. Jesus told the rich man to give up all he had and follow him. Based on numerous other examples, we know that Jesus could see the hearts of men. Do you honestly think Jesus was sitting there crossing his fingers that the rich man would do this. He said it because he knew the man would not do it. Many times when we are told to do something, in actuality, it is impossible. Revelation 22:17 is yet another example of this. No man will come to Christ because Christ is the very Light that Scripture tells us men avoid at all costs. No man can raise himself from the dead any more than a leopard can change his spots or an Ethiopian change the color of his skin (Jeremiah 13:23). Only God can do this and He only does it for His Elect. All others will continue on the path to Hell that we all deserve for our indiscretions.
TheDJ said:
Lets take a look at one of the scriptures that some might say claim predestination. Ephesians 1:3-6: "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29195">4</sup>For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29196">5</sup>he<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href="#fen-NIV-29196c" title="See footnote c">c</a>]">[
c]</sup> predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will"
Now we have to take a look at the context and see what it means. It mentions that He chose us in Him before the creation of the world. But we have to keep reading "To be holy and blameless in His sight." This shows as Christians He predetermined we would be holy and blameless in His sight.
In verse 5 Paul is saying that God predetermined that those who are holy would be adopted as children.
Actually, the 2 go hand in hand are cannot be separated. It is not that God chooses those who are holy. He chooses sinners before the foundation of the world (Romans 5:8) to be His holy, adopted children. Our holiness is because of His predestination because, outside of it, we have nothing but wretched foolishness. Just as He predestined our holiness, He also predestined our adoption.
TheDJ said:
Again I am not saying that God does not predetermine events or have certain types of election. For example God chose the nation Israel through the seed of Abraham. God predetermined that the Messiah would come into the world and through Him God would have a plan of salvation.
So with this admission, what is so difficult about admitting we are a part of that sovereign decree as well? I believe it to be because we are haughty and feel we deserve more when what we really deserve is Hell. I thank God He did not leave me to my own desires because I would still be lost. No man comes unto the Father but through Christ (John 14:6) and no man comes to Christ (John 3:20) unless he is first regenerated to be a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). We are bound by our nature and our nature shuns Christ until Christ regenerates our nature.
TheDJ said:
You mentioned John 3:18 lets have a look "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
God's purpose for sending Jesus into the world was for salvation and everyone to be saved.
Again, you will not find the word
boulomai found anywhere in connection with this claim. At most, you will find
thelō which is far from supporting your claim. Just sayin'...
TheDJ said:
Judgment will be the consequence of unbelief, although this is not God's desire.
Now we're getting somewhere.
TheDJ said:
John 3:15-16 state that whosoever believes meaning anyone and that is the key word.
However, notice that it does not imply anybody will. It just says it would be possible. Well, it would be possible that if a man never sinned, he would gain entry into Heaven without a need for Christ. Sadly, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23) just as all men are dead in their sin (Ephesians 2:1). Only the Elect will ever believe. To everybody else, they will reject it and count it as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18).
TheDJ said:
The meaning of this scripture means that the unbeliever (who does not believe in Christ) is judged already. This shows if you believe you will never be judged but if you don't believe in Jesus as savior you will not be judged because you already are judged!
And none of this is a surprise to God because it was He who ordained it to be so.
TheDJ said:
This shows that there will not be this judgment where everyone stands around waiting to see if they will make it to the Kingdom of God, no the unbelievers will be at the Great White Throne Judgment where they are already condemned to the lake of fire because they never accepted the pardon that Jesus Christ paid for them.
And this is because man is still responsible despite God's sovereign decree.
Compatibilism!
TheDJ said:
Lets take a look at John 3:19-21 "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
These scriptures show that we can never measure up to God's perfect character. We are fallen and separated from God and we can do nothing on our own to obtain salvation. We don't have to run into the darkness anymore because Jesus Christ who is the light is here and paid the penalty for sin, for "whomever" wished to receive it.
The Light is not some aspect of Jesus. It IS Jesus. Man does not come to Jesus while being ashamed of the light found in him. Man simply does not come to Jesus on his own doing because man HATES Jesus. However, whoever lives by the truth WILL come into the Light. Who is the man? It is the Elect. This is the only reason he is living by the truth. Not convinced? John 3:21 even says the only reason he was able to come to the Light (living by the truth) is because what has been done has been done through God. God regenerated him, gave him a new nature, and now this man was compelled to Christ in an irresistible manner. This only occurs in the Elect. All others are left to hate Jesus and perish in the end just as they "freely" desire.
