Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[KingJ]

After many discussions on this topic, I have come to believe that three key truths strongly support a pre-tribulation rapture and substantially settle the question.

​

1. The Rapture Date Is Completely Unknown​

“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” — Matthew 24:36

Jesus declared that a specific day and hour would be completely unknowable. Not known to men or angels, but known only to the Father.

This creates a serious interpretive boundary. We cannot mix with this verse any scripture speaking to a resurrection at the end of the tribulation.

Scripture reveals a prophetic pattern built into creation itself.

• God created in six days and rested on the seventh (Genesis 2:2–3).
• “One day is with the Lord as a thousand years” (2 Peter 3:8).
• The reign of Christ is described as a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1–6).

The seventh “day” in prophetic history is explicitly defined: one thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ.

If the seventh day equals 1,000 years, and Scripture uses the day-as-a-thousand-years principle (2 Peter 3:8), then the six preceding “days” correspond to six thousand years of human history.

Six days = 6,000 years.
Seventh day = 1,000-year reign.

Within that framework, the tribulation occurs at the very end of the sixth day. The closing seven-year period before the seventh-day kingdom begins.

It is not a random era. It is the final segment of the sixth millennium.

And Scripture does not leave its length ambiguous:

• Daniel’s seventieth week (Daniel 9:27)
• 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6)
• Forty-two months (Revelation 13:5)
• Time, times, and half a time (Revelation 12:14)

The tribulation is mathematically defined.

If Matthew 24:36 refers to Christ’s visible return at the end of that seven-year period, which itself sits at the very end of the sixth 1,000-year “day”, then once the tribulation begins, the return could be calculated. Seven years from the covenant confirmation of Daniel 9:27. Countable. Measurable. Predictable.

But Jesus said the day and hour are not knowable. Therefore, the event described in Matthew 24:36 cannot be the conclusion of a timed seven-year sequence at the end of the sixth millennium.

2. God Does Not Leave Nor Forsake Us​

“I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” — Hebrews 13:5

This is not poetic encouragement. It is covenant assurance. The present Church is not in probation. We are not spiritual candidates awaiting final evaluation.

Scripture says:

• We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).
• We are sealed by the Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14).
• We have passed from death unto life (John 5:24).
• We are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
• We are delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Our loyalty has already been demonstrated, not by works, but by faith:

“If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” — Romans 10:9.

That faith is itself enabled by the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).

Now consider the tribulation.

Revelation describes a period where:

• The beast is given authority over the saints (Revelation 13:7).
• Economic and social exclusion is enforced (Revelation 13:17).
• Refusal of his mark results in torment and for many, execution (Revelation 13:15).

This is not ordinary persecution. It is a concentrated, global unleashing of satanic power during a time of divine judgment.

To leave sealed, justified children under the unrestrained dominance of the dragon and the beast, after declaring them accepted, redeemed, and no longer under wrath, would not be abandonment.

A loving father does not prove his faithfulness by leaving his children in the custody of a known predator.

Many quote Job in opposition to this fact. Job was tested, sure, but he was not a sealed, Spirit-indwelt member of the completed Body of Christ. Job lived before the cross, before Pentecost, before the sealing ministry described in Ephesians.

The present Church is uniquely positioned in redemptive history. We are called the Bride (Ephesians 5:25–27), not probationary servants awaiting review.

There is no further loyalty to prove. Faith in Christ has already marked the boundary.

If God removes restraint (2 Thessalonians 2:7) and permits the full manifestation of lawlessness, yet leaves His justified children in that environment, the promise of Hebrews 13:5 would be hollow comfort.

3. God Does Not Lie​

“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent.” - Numbers 23:19

Scripture presents salvation in the present dispensation as settled and secure:

• Faith in Christ results in salvation (Romans 10:9).
• Believers are sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).
• We are complete in Him (Colossians 2:10).
• We have eternal life (John 3:16).

The language is definitive.

Now let's examine the tribulation.

Revelation 14:9–11 declares that anyone who receives the mark of the beast will drink the wine of God’s wrath.
Revelation 20:4 honors those who refused the mark and were executed for it.

Under tribulation conditions, allegiance is visibly tested. Refusal is required. Endurance is demanded (Revelation 14:12; Matthew 24:13).

If the present sealed Church enters that dispensation, then a problem emerges.

A believer who has confessed Christ and believed in His resurrection, fulfilling Romans 10:9, would still face irreversible condemnation if they receive the mark Rev 14:9-11.

"If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.". - Rom 10:9

In that scenario, faith alone would not suffice. The governing conditions would shift.

The tribulation saints operate under an economy of endurance and visible allegiance during open satanic rule. But the present Church has been promised justification by faith alone, sealing by the Spirit, and exemption from wrath.

If that sealing can be overridden by a later administrative shift, then it was conditional. If it was conditional, it was not presented honestly. God would be a liar.

God does not guarantee salvation through faith and then later introduce additional conditions for the same sealed body.

If He did, the stability of the gospel would fracture. And Numbers 23:19 forbids that conclusion.

God does not lie.
God does not revise.
God does not overstate His promises.

Conclusion​

These three truths stand together:

• The coming event is completely unknown in timing.
• God does not abandon His children.
• God does not lie about salvation or security.

If the present, sealed, justified Church enters the tribulation. The climactic outpouring of divine wrath and satanic dominance. Then those three truths are strained to the breaking point.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Before or after tribulation?
Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Before or after tribulation?
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Before or after the tribulation?

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Before or after the tribulation (well, could be mid trib, but definitely not pre).

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

When is the "last trumpet"? Before or after the tribulation?

Why does the length matter? Jesus didn't know 2,000 years when it would happen, but He knew the signs to look for.
He knew it would last 7 years after that. So what, what does that change?

 

[KingJ]

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Before or after tribulation?
Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Before or after tribulation?
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Before or after the tribulation?

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Before or after the tribulation (well, could be mid trib, but definitely not pre).

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Thanks for your efforted reply.

1. You are cherry picking scripture specifically speaking to the second coming.
2. You are not properly dealing with the first point being made.
3. You are not addressing the relevance of other two points in the OP.

1. These passages are used to support a rapture event:

A - 1 Thess 4:16-17 ''The Lord himself shall descend from heaven… and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive… shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air…
B - Matt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
C - Matt 24:40-41 “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”
D - Luke 17:34-36 “Two shall be in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.”
E - John 14:1-3 “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
F - Rev 3:10 “I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world…
G - 1 Thess 5:9 “God hath not appointed us to wrath…
H - Mark 13:32-37 “Watch… for ye know not when the master of the house cometh…”
I - Rev 4:1 “Come up hither…”
J - Titus 2:13 “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing…”

2. Why the timeline matters:

Why does the length matter? Jesus didn't know 2,000 years when it would happen, but He knew the signs to look for.
He knew it would last 7 years after that. So what, what does that change?

Scripture is crystal clear that an exact 7 year tribulation takes place at the end of the sixth day before an exact 1000 year 7th day millennium. Jesus would have known day 1 of the first '1000 year day'. Its the day Adam was made. As to would every angel.

This is significant because Matt 24:36 says nobody knows, only God the Father.

 

[KingJ]

@B-A-C I think you believe that we will not know when the tribulation starts and that is what you are using to support the end of it being an unknown date.

You need to consider these items:

1. The primary starting point: a covenant confirmed for one “week”​

The clearest verse is:

Book of Daniel 9:27

“He shall confirm a covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease…”

Why this matters:​

• In prophetic interpretation, “one week” = 7 years (based on Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy).
• The tribulation begins when this covenant is confirmed by a future ruler (often identified as the Antichrist).
• The midpoint (3.5 years) is marked by the breaking of that covenant.
  

So the start date = the moment this covenant is confirmed with many.

---

2. Jesus confirms this event as future​

Jesus refers directly to Daniel’s midpoint event:

Gospel of Matthew 24:15

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place…”

This event happens in the middle of the seven years, confirming Daniel’s timeline is still future from Jesus’ perspective.

---

3. Revelation gives the length of each half​

Book of Revelation describes the tribulation in two halves:

• 42 months (Revelation 13:5)
• 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3)
• “time, times, and half a time” (Revelation 12:14)
  

Each equals 3.5 years, confirming a total of 7 years.

---

4. Paul describes the midpoint breaking event​

Second Epistle to the Thessalonians 2:3–4

“…that man of sin… sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

This matches Daniel’s midpoint betrayal.

---

Summary: The tribulation starts with ONE specific prophetic event​

Scripturally, the tribulation begins when:

The future ruler confirms a covenant with many (Daniel 9:27)

Not when war starts.
Not when disasters start.
Not when the temple is built.

The covenant confirmation is the starting trigger.

 

[B-A-C]

. You are cherry picking scripture specifically speaking to the second coming.

No, I am specifically picking verses that say "gather up", gather us together with him".

Rapture = gather together, gather up.

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Not "cherry picked", a verse SPECIFICALLY about gathering.

Mark 3:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

"gather together" = rapture.

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

"caught up together" = rapture.

If we can't use verses that say "caught up" or "gather up", then what verses do we use? (ones that don't anything to do with the rapture?)

 

[KingJ]

Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Not "cherry picked", a verse SPECIFICALLY about gathering.

Mark 3:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

"gather together" = rapture.

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

"caught up together" = rapture.

If we can't use verses that say "caught up" or "gather up", then what verses do we use? (ones that don't anything to do with the rapture?)

Why are you harping on 'gather up'. You did not properly read my post. I said, you are ignoring the passages I gave you. You are being careful to cherry pick passages that do not say ''nobody knows the day and hour''.

As I said to @BroTan in another thread, to not believe in a separate rapture event, you either need to A. tear these passages that speak to an unknown date that we will be ''gathered up' from your bible or B. believe nobody in heaven can count. Which is it, A or B?

 

[B-A-C]

Why are you harping on 'gather up'.

"You say a post-trib rapture would be calculable because the tribulation is 7 years. But that assumes everyone will know exactly when it starts. We could already be in it - what day did it start? If the Daniel 9:27 covenant is so obvious, why can't anyone agree on whether it's happened yet? If we can't identify the beginning, we can't calculate the end. Matthew 24:36 still works post-trib."

"I'm focusing on 'gather' and 'caught up' because those ARE the biblical terms. 'Rapture' isn't in the Bible - it comes from the Latin rapturo (seized/caught up) in the Vulgate translation of 1 Thess 4:17. The Greek is harpazo - to seize, snatch, catch up. In English Bibles, this shows up as 'caught up' (1 Thess 4:17) and 'gather/gathered together' (Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27, 2 Thess 2:1). If we're discussing when believers are gathered to Christ, we have to use the actual biblical language for that event. What terms would you prefer I use?"

The Greek terms:

harpazo (ἁρπάζω) = caught up, seized, snatched (1 Thess 4:17)
episunagoge (ἐπισυναγωγή) = gathering together (2 Thess 2:1)
episunago (ἐπισυνάγω) = gather together (Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27)

If a verse has one of these words in it.. it's talking about the rapture.
No timing gymnastics required. Just go with what the verse says.

"In Matt 24:3, the disciples asked about multiple things - the temple, Jesus's coming, and the end of the age. When Jesus says 'no one knows the day or hour' in v36, what specifically is He referring to? The rapture? His return? The start of tribulation? The end of the age? You're assuming it only means the rapture, but the context shows Jesus answering a broader question about end-time events."

 

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Your entire arguments hinges on Jesus knowing when the "rapture" is. You say, well it will be 7 years after the tribulation, that is a knowable date.
I agree. But when does the tribulation start? That was an unknowable date.

Jesus didn't know when "the end of the age" would be. (No man knows the hour).. But He did know the rapture would be 7 years later.

But wait, your argument gets worse.

If I don't know when the tribulation is going to start, how can I have a "pre-trib" rapture, the day before it starts?

 

[KingJ]

"You say a post-trib rapture would be calculable because the tribulation is 7 years. But that assumes everyone will know exactly when it starts. We could already be in it - what day did it start? If the Daniel 9:27 covenant is so obvious, why can't anyone agree on whether it's happened yet? If we can't identify the beginning, we can't calculate the end. Matthew 24:36 still works post-trib."

BAC, please read properly read the OP.

Scripture is CRYSTAL CLEAR that when the SEVEN year tribulation ENDS the Seventh day of EXACTLY 1000 years begins.

1 + 1 = 2.

"I'm focusing on 'gather' and 'caught up' because those ARE the biblical terms. 'Rapture' isn't in the Bible - it comes from the Latin rapturo (seized/caught up) in the Vulgate translation of 1 Thess 4:17. The Greek is harpazo - to seize, snatch, catch up. In English Bibles, this shows up as 'caught up' (1 Thess 4:17) and 'gather/gathered together' (Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27, 2 Thess 2:1). If we're discussing when believers are gathered to Christ, we have to use the actual biblical language for that event. What terms would you prefer I use?"

The Greek terms:

harpazo (ἁρπάζω) = caught up, seized, snatched (1 Thess 4:17)
episunagoge (ἐπισυναγωγή) = gathering together (2 Thess 2:1)
episunago (ἐπισυνάγω) = gather together (Matt 24:31, Mark 13:27)

If a verse has one of these words in it.. it's talking about the rapture.
No timing gymnastics required. Just go with what the verse says.

"In Matt 24:3, the disciples asked about multiple things - the temple, Jesus's coming, and the end of the age. When Jesus says 'no one knows the day or hour' in v36, what specifically is He referring to? The rapture? His return? The start of tribulation? The end of the age? You're assuming it only means the rapture, but the context shows Jesus answering a broader question about end-time events."

Rabbit trail.

 

[KingJ]

Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Your entire arguments hinges on Jesus knowing when the "rapture" is.

Jesus does not know when the rapture is. You are not properly reading my posts if you say my argument hinges on that. My argument hinges on Jesus, humans and angels being able to count to six thousand years and a further seven years once they see the great tribulation start.

You say, well it will be 7 years after the tribulation, that is a knowable date.
I agree. But when does the tribulation start?

We on earth don't know when it starts, but we do know when it ends (we can count 7 years) and we know that it starts with a covenant being made Dan 9:27 by the antichrist and Jesus teaches us in Matt 24:15 that the woes begin once he reveals himself in the newly built temple.

That was an unknowable date.

Only to us. Everyone in heaven can count to six days.

Jesus didn't know when "the end of the age" would be. (No man knows the hour)..

You are grouping Matt 24:36 with the second coming at the end of tribulation. You are getting yourself confused.

But He did know the rapture would be 7 years later.

But wait, your argument gets worse.

If I don't know when the tribulation is going to start, how can I have a "pre-trib" rapture, the day before it starts?

The rapture will take place anytime before the tribulation. Not literally the day before. If that were the case, it would not be an unknown to all event. All in heaven can count to six and seven days.

----------------------

My friend, your belief fails so hard. Please try understand why. We don't even need to think of angels in heaven who saw the day Adam was made and counted to six days. People on earth can count to seven years and if they miss the beginning, they have a half way point where they can both read and see scripture of God's plagues being fulfilled. That would mean they only need to count to 3.5 years.

The tribulation is going to be a stand out event. It will be the most terrifying period on earth in all of human history. Ever was and ever will be. We will know when it starts and we can know when it ends. Your ''rapture / unknown date and time = resurrection at end of tribulation'' theory is so completely debunked to continue believing it is as bad as 1 + 1 = 3.

Matt 24:15-21 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house; Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[joestue]

nobody is raptured, the righteous stay here and repopulate the earth after (most) of the wicked are destroyed.

Matt 24:15-21 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house; Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

assuming this is in the future, and not speaking specifically of the destruction of jerusalem, (of which the righteous should have been able to see was coming to them for a long time)

why would Jesus tell them to flee if there will be rapture to escape the tribulation?

 

[B-A-C]

People on earth can count to seven years

Seven years from what? What is the sttarting date? When is the tribulation going to start? Give me a date please.
Yes Jesus know the rapture will happen 7 years after.. but 7 years after what date?

The disciples asked "when is the end of the age". Not when is the rapture.

Jesus wasn't saying He doesn't know how long the tribulation will last. He is saying no man knows when it will begin.

 

[KingJ]

Seven years from what? What is the sttarting date? When is the tribulation going to start? Give me a date please.
Yes Jesus know the rapture will happen 7 years after.. but 7 years after what date?

The disciples asked "when is the end of the age". Not when is the rapture.

Jesus wasn't saying He doesn't know how long the tribulation will last. He is saying no man knows when it will begin.

Please re-read post # 11, your question is answered there and in the OP.

 

[KingJ]

nobody is raptured, the righteous stay here and repopulate the earth after (most) of the wicked are destroyed.

The righteous are resurrected and the wicked sent to hell. God will bring children and mentally disabled people back to earth.

God is impartial. All need to be tested and the righteous that survive the tribulation have been thoroughly tested. No need to re-test them, We know that the millennium is another round of testing as the devil is released at the end of it Rev 20:3.

assuming this is in the future, and not speaking specifically of the destruction of jerusalem, (of which the righteous should have been able to see was coming to them for a long time)

why would Jesus tell them to flee if there will be rapture to escape the tribulation?

Just because you are not raptured does not mean you are a wicked person. God is very hopeful that many in the tribulation will be saved and become 'tribulation saints'.

 

[Gothedral]

where is "tribulation saints" hinted at?

 

[BroTan]

The Lord is not coming down until the seventh trumpet, which is the seventh seal, with all his saints. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24: 29-30)

So, after the tribulation period the sun will be darkened, the stars will fall and the moon will not give her light. We have some note worthy information here. Why? First of all, several so-called churches teach that Jesus (or in this case the Son of Man) will arrive before the great tribulation and rapture His servants off the earth. If there were to be a rapture, it would have been mentioned in the above set of verses. These verses clearly show the sign (of the Son of Man) appearing after the tribulation. Correct?

Lets find out who would be raise at this last trumpet. Lets go into 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (Revelation 8:1-6)

So now, the seventh seal is open and its time to blow the seventh trumpet.

Lets go into Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Lets go into 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now, lets see the saints come down. Lets go into Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Lets read this last part again in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. See what people don't understand or over look is that some of these Saint were dead, they came out the grave and some still alive, made through the great tribulation, that's why this is called the first resurrection. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). You have to keep those commandments of God and the faith of Jesus to become a Saint.

Let's see who else made it through the great tribulation in Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

[joestue]

Just because you are not raptured does not mean you are a wicked person. God is very hopeful that many in the tribulation will be saved and become 'tribulation saints'.

You did not answer the question.

 

[KingJ]

You did not answer the question.

You asked: why would Jesus tell them to flee if there will be rapture to escape the tribulation?

I said ''Just because you are not raptured does not mean you are a wicked person. God is very hopeful that many in the tribulation will be saved and become 'tribulation saints'.

That is a correct answer. Jesus, in the verse you are referencing from Matt 24 is not speaking to Christians already raptured.

 

[KingJ]

The Lord is not coming down until the seventh trumpet, which is the seventh seal, with all his saints. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24: 29-30)

So, after the tribulation period the sun will be darkened, the stars will fall and the moon will not give her light. We have some note worthy information here. Why? First of all, several so-called churches teach that Jesus (or in this case the Son of Man) will arrive before the great tribulation and rapture His servants off the earth. If there were to be a rapture, it would have been mentioned in the above set of verses. These verses clearly show the sign (of the Son of Man) appearing after the tribulation. Correct?

Lets find out who would be raise at this last trumpet. Lets go into 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. (Revelation 8:1-6)

So now, the seventh seal is open and its time to blow the seventh trumpet.

Lets go into Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Lets go into 1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now, lets see the saints come down. Lets go into Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. Lets read this last part again in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. See what people don't understand or over look is that some of these Saint were dead, they came out the grave and some still alive, made through the great tribulation, that's why this is called the first resurrection. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). You have to keep those commandments of God and the faith of Jesus to become a Saint.

Let's see who else made it through the great tribulation in Revelation 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Please don't spam this thread with your gobbledegook. Pick a line or post you disagree with and respond to points made.

You continuously avoid direct questions and points made.

Your rebuttal goes like this.

KingJ: 1 + 1 = 2
Brotan: Ignores that 1 + 1 = 2 and states that because the wind blows east and mushrooms grow in Ireland, therefore 3 + 5 = 11.