Pre-meditated sin

[B-A-C]

There is a word used in legal courts today. This word isn't in the Bible anywhere, but I believe the concept of this.. is in the Bible.

"premeditated". What does that word mean? It simply means I thought about something and contemplated it, before I actually do it.

I'm an old guy, over half a century old. But I remember when we had "heat of the moment" laws.
If you came home from work, and you caught your wife in bed with another man, and you pulled out a gun and killed them both right in that moment...
the courts went easier on you. (Of course you still had to prove the circumstances).
If you knew about this, and them waited days and days to plan some diabolical end for them.. maybe even make it look like an accident... but then you
were caught. The courts went harder on you. The difference is, you didn't really think very much about what you did in the heat of the moment.
You did think quite a bit about the second scenario. You took a lot of time and planned out their demise.

I see this concept in the Bible also.
Now maybe I'm hammering a nail into a board today, and I accidentally hit my thumb with the hammer... and I yell out something similar to "oh shoot". (maybe not that exact word)
I didn't plan on hitting my thumb today, it was unexpected. Maybe I wasn't even planning on nailing some board together, it just happened.
But even so... I sinned. I said a bad word.

Second scenario. I'm having an affair on my wife. It's been going on for a couple of months now. I hide my phone texts, I hide my emails, I delete my phone call history.
I make excuses to say I'm working late, or I'm going to visit some guys I know. I've had a lot of time to plan this out. ..and I keep doing it, and keep doing it.
I know I saw this lady yesterday, and I know I'll see her tomorrow, in fact, I'm planning on seeing her tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after... and so on.

One of these two sins... is willful sin. The other is not willful sin. I didn't plan on hitting my thumb, I didn't willfully do it.
The other sin, I'm willfully doing it, I'm willfully planning on doing it. There is a difference.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries

Notice it doesn't say, if you've ever sinned. It doesn't say if you stumbled. When you stumble.. you fall on accident.

James 3:2; For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to rein in the whole body as well.
Some people fall on purpose.

James is talking about stumbling. I tripped over that rock I didn't see. I wasn't trying to trip over it, I just wasn't aware of it.
The writer of Hebrews is talking about willful, planned, premeditated sin. I know I did that sin yesterday, and I'm planning on doing it tomorrow.

We may never be able to stop stumbling. But if we don't stop the willful sin... Jesus's sacrifice no longer covers us.

 

[B-A-C]

1Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1Jn 3:6; No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.
1Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9; No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God.

No one practices stumbling. It hurts when we fall down, most of us try to avoid doing it.
But some people "practice" sin. The difference between a stumble, and a "practice" is that practicing means I'm doing something over and over again, to get better it.
If I'm having affair, I'm getting better at hiding my secret texts, I'm getting better at making excuses to be gone at night. I'm practicing sin. I'm doing it over and over continually.
John says if we belong to Jesus we won't continually do the same sins over and over again. We won't "practice" sin. That doesn't mean we might not ever stumble,
but it does mean we don't choose to continually live in planned willful "practiced" sin.

 

[Dave M]

Preach it brother !!! this is what its all about right here !! I know this was one of the hardest things for me to actually comprehend. Because all you here from the pulpit is things like "you are made righteous in Jesus buy you will still sin" this is a actual quote from the last church I attended, he never went on to explain what he really meant, so to me it gave the impression it ok to sin. Its rare to here preachers preaching against sin anymore. The way we live matters, the way we think matters.

we need watchman that care for the souls of there flock by warning them of the consequences of sin, not motivational speakers, some are great bible teachers yet not good watchmen, some just want to grow but dont even know there flock they are supposedly watching over.

I read something today that said ;;;;;;;;...real preachers will either make you hate your sin,, or hate your preacher !

 

[PloughBoy]

There is a word used in legal courts today. This word isn't in the Bible anywhere, but I believe the concept of this.. is in the Bible.

"premeditated". What does that word mean? It simply means I thought about something and contemplated it, before I actually do it.

I'm an old guy, over half a century old. But I remember when we had "heat of the moment" laws.
If you came home from work, and you caught your wife in bed with another man, and you pulled out a gun and killed them both right in that moment...
the courts went easier on you. (Of course you still had to prove the circumstances).
If you knew about this, and them waited days and days to plan some diabolical end for them.. maybe even make it look like an accident... but then you
were caught. The courts went harder on you. The difference is, you didn't really think very much about what you did in the heat of the moment.
You did think quite a bit about the second scenario. You took a lot of time and planned out their demise.

I see this concept in the Bible also.
Now maybe I'm hammering a nail into a board today, and I accidentally hit my thumb with the hammer... and I yell out something similar to "oh shoot". (maybe not that exact word)
I didn't plan on hitting my thumb today, it was unexpected. Maybe I wasn't even planning on nailing some board together, it just happened.
But even so... I sinned. I said a bad word.

Second scenario. I'm having an affair on my wife. It's been going on for a couple of months now. I hide my phone texts, I hide my emails, I delete my phone call history.
I make excuses to say I'm working late, or I'm going to visit some guys I know. I've had a lot of time to plan this out. ..and I keep doing it, and keep doing it.
I know I saw this lady yesterday, and I know I'll see her tomorrow, in fact, I'm planning on seeing her tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after... and so on.

One of these two sins... is willful sin. The other is not willful sin. I didn't plan on hitting my thumb, I didn't willfully do it.
The other sin, I'm willfully doing it, I'm willfully planning on doing it. There is a difference.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries

Notice it doesn't say, if you've ever sinned. It doesn't say if you stumbled. When you stumble.. you fall on accident.

James 3:2; For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to rein in the whole body as well.
Some people fall on purpose.

James is talking about stumbling. I tripped over that rock I didn't see. I wasn't trying to trip over it, I just wasn't aware of it.
The writer of Hebrews is talking about willful, planned, premeditated sin. I know I did that sin yesterday, and I'm planning on doing it tomorrow.

We may never be able to stop stumbling. But if we don't stop the willful sin... Jesus's sacrifice no longer covers us.

American Standard Version
"Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous'sins ; Let them not have dominion over me: Then shall I be upright, And I shall be clear from great transgression."

 

[Born Again 2004]

Preach it brother !!! this is what its all about right here !! I know this was one of the hardest things for me to actually comprehend. Because all you here from the pulpit is things like "you are made righteous in Jesus buy you will still sin" this is a actual quote from the last church I attended, he never went on to explain what he really meant, so to me it gave the impression it ok to sin. Its rare to here preachers preaching against sin anymore. The way we live matters, the way we think matters.

we need watchman that care for the souls of there flock by warning them of the consequences of sin, not motivational speakers, some are great bible teachers yet not good watchmen, some just want to grow but dont even know there flock they are supposedly watching over.

I read something today that said ;;;;;;;;...real preachers will either make you hate your sin,, or hate your preacher !

I think a good point here is that God is perfect and we are not yet so I think it is impossible for us not too sin...especially believers!

 

[Sue D.]

We're all born with the propensity For sinning. That should Not be giving us license To sin. We Should be wanting to Please God in our every day lives.

 

[B-A-C]

We're all born with the propensity For sinning.

Can we be set free of sin? Does sin have to be our master after we are saved?
Can we be "born again" without the propensity to sin?

 

[B-A-C]

John 8:11; She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."]

Matt 5:48; "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

John 8:36; "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

I don't think would ask us to do anything we can't do.

 

[Born Again 2004]

@Sue D. Is correct, we are born into sin; what we try to do about it , makes all the difference.

As usual, @B-A-C , always uses verse like the above to prove that God demands perfection, but, as usual, he is wrong: God does not demand perfection, He expects it!

God is the only perfect one and in ways we just can't comprehend, at best, we sin in ways we don't even know!

Sure Jesus says " Go and sin no more"...that is a command and is an expectation , not a demand.
He knows we are not perfect, not yet, and that is why He did what He did.

All of this is for Believers. And, as believers, we " Hate the sin but love the sinner".
And, that is the difference, Believers, always dislike their sin and strive to do better...a Non-believer could care less; he doesn't even recognize sin, much less, strive to do something about it!

I think using Bible verses to support a premise that we are commanded to be sinless is an affront to God! The mere thought that we can be perfect is a sin in itself.

Yes, we are born sinners but , we Believers, understand that God came down to get inside us, correct that problem and eventually glorify us in His presence, someday in the future, when we enter his Kingdom, perfect!

Regarding sin, we believers recognize it and strive to do better but give God and His Grace all the credit and none of us!

 

[complete]

There is a word used in legal courts today. This word isn't in the Bible anywhere, but I believe the concept of this.. is in the Bible.

"premeditated". What does that word mean? It simply means I thought about something and contemplated it, before I actually do it.

I'm an old guy, over half a century old. But I remember when we had "heat of the moment" laws.
If you came home from work, and you caught your wife in bed with another man, and you pulled out a gun and killed them both right in that moment...
the courts went easier on you. (Of course you still had to prove the circumstances).
If you knew about this, and them waited days and days to plan some diabolical end for them.. maybe even make it look like an accident... but then you
were caught. The courts went harder on you. The difference is, you didn't really think very much about what you did in the heat of the moment.
You did think quite a bit about the second scenario. You took a lot of time and planned out their demise.

I see this concept in the Bible also.
Now maybe I'm hammering a nail into a board today, and I accidentally hit my thumb with the hammer... and I yell out something similar to "oh shoot". (maybe not that exact word)
I didn't plan on hitting my thumb today, it was unexpected. Maybe I wasn't even planning on nailing some board together, it just happened.
But even so... I sinned. I said a bad word.

Second scenario. I'm having an affair on my wife. It's been going on for a couple of months now. I hide my phone texts, I hide my emails, I delete my phone call history.
I make excuses to say I'm working late, or I'm going to visit some guys I know. I've had a lot of time to plan this out. ..and I keep doing it, and keep doing it.
I know I saw this lady yesterday, and I know I'll see her tomorrow, in fact, I'm planning on seeing her tomorrow, and the day after, and the day after... and so on.

One of these two sins... is willful sin. The other is not willful sin. I didn't plan on hitting my thumb, I didn't willfully do it.
The other sin, I'm willfully doing it, I'm willfully planning on doing it. There is a difference.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries

Notice it doesn't say, if you've ever sinned. It doesn't say if you stumbled. When you stumble.. you fall on accident.

James 3:2; For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to rein in the whole body as well.
Some people fall on purpose.

James is talking about stumbling. I tripped over that rock I didn't see. I wasn't trying to trip over it, I just wasn't aware of it.
The writer of Hebrews is talking about willful, planned, premeditated sin. I know I did that sin yesterday, and I'm planning on doing it tomorrow.

We may never be able to stop stumbling. But if we don't stop the willful sin... Jesus's sacrifice no longer covers us.

'For if we go on sinning willfully
after receiving the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a terrifying expectation of judgment
and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries'
(Heb 10:26-27)

Hello @B-A-C,

The sin referred to in this verse, written to Hebrew believers as it is, is the turning back to Judaism. In Hebrews 2:1-4:16 and Hebrews 10:19-12:3 we see the evil heart of unbelief that departs from the Living God. In both, the true antidote is 'Let us draw near'. In both there is the holding fast of the 'confession' (Romans 10:10). In chapter three we have stressed those who failed to enter in because of unbelief. In chapter 11 we have those who 'through faith' obtained promises and triumphed. The two-fold title of Christ, 'The Apostle and High Priest of our profession' (Hebrews 3:1) is parallel with the two-fold title of Hebrews 12:2, 'The Captain and Perfecter of faith'. The key to the character of the apostasy that is in view is found in Hebrews 10:30:-

'Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith He was sanctified, an unholy thing,
and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know Him that hath said,
Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.
And again, The Lord shall judge His People.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.'
(Heb 10:29)

* These words in white above are a quotation from Deuteronomy 32, the great prophetic forecast of Israel's history given by Moses just before his end. This song of forty-three verses traverses the whole of prophetic times. It reveals the failure of Israel and their setting aside, the period while they are Lo-ammi, 'not My people', and provoked to jealousy, and the mercy of the Lord that gathers them back again with rejoicing. The day of vengeance and recompense is for a time when their foot has slipped: and this is evidently 'the day approaching' of Hebrews 10:25. The apostasy foretold by Moses is manifestly at hand in Hebrews 10, and explains Hebrews 6 as well.

* So, B-A-C, I believe it can never, ever, be said to believers, that:- 'Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us'. For no willful sin we can commit, can equal that which was possible to believers within Israel during the Acts period.

* Also, what believers would wilfully commit sin?:-

'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?'
(Romans 6:1-2)

* We will reap what we sow, there is no doubt about that: but the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7). The antidote is the same as above 'Let us draw near'. (Hebrews 10:22)

Praise God! For His Mercy and Grace.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dave M]

As usual, @B-A-C , always uses verse like the above to prove that God demands perfection, but, as usual, he is wrong: God does not demand perfection,

this is a false statement Ray has never claimed to be with out sin or that God wants us to be perfect,

 

[Born Again 2004]

this is a false statement Ray has never claimed to be with out sin or that God wants us to be perfect,

In the eyes of the beholder! I believe that @B-A-C , and for a LONG time, is a Legalist. If you feel diferently, that is your business, but He and I have been at this for years. I tried to understand, but come to the same conclusion.

You take a snippet out of context. In your effort to differ and wish to protect him. The real issue is I don't think God means that we MUST be perfect but, rather, He expects it.

From years of discussion with , B-A-C, I have found that he believes that , once saved, you must be flawless, that striving for excellence won't work. If you feel otherwise, that is your opinion.

This has been going on for over 10 years but I will reframe from reffering to him any further!
If I have offended you, please accept my heart felt apology!
Joe

 

[B-A-C]

In the eyes of the beholder! I believe that @B-A-C , and for a LONG time, is a Legalist. If you feel diferently, that is your business, but He and I have been at this for years. I tried to understand, but come to the same conclusion.

You take a snippet out of context. In your effort to differ and wish to protect him. The real issue is I don't think God means that we MUST be perfect but, rather, He expects it.

From years of discussion with , B-A-C, I have found that he believes that , once saved, you must be flawless, that striving for excellence won't work. If you feel otherwise, that is your opinion.

It's OK, I'm not offended in the least. Many people call Jesus a legalist.
But no, I not perfect, and I don't believe perfection is required to be saved.

In fact if you go back and read the first two posts in this thread, that's what I'm saying. Stumbling is OK.
Practiced, willful, habitual sin is not.

 

[B-A-C]

The sin referred to in this verse, written to Hebrew believers as it is, is the turning back to Judaism

I don't see this anywhere, I believe this is an assumption on your part. But even if it was simply going back to Judaism, that would still be a sin that couldn't be forgiven after you are saved.

 

[complete]

Hello @B-A-C,

From personal experience I know that God saves to the uttermost those who come unto Him for salvation, and that nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. That if we say we have no sin we lie, and the truth is not in us, but if we confess our sins, He is just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God, in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is the way of victory.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

I don't see this anywhere, I believe this is an assumption on your part. But even if it was simply going back to Judaism, that would still be a sin that couldn't be forgiven after you are saved.

Hello @B-A-C,

This is not an assumption. It is there within the context of the epistle as a whole. For though all Scripture is for us, not all is about us.

Going back to Judaism for the believing Jew was to tread under foot the Son of God, and count the blood of the covenant that He had died for as Mediator, as an unholy thing, thereby doing despite unto the Spirit of grace. That can be said of no other sin.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

That if we say we have no sin we lie,

Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I agree, everyone has sinned. I also agree there is mercy and forgiveness for believers.
But I believe we have to repent.

Matt 4:17; From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

Luke 13:5' "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

 

[B-A-C]

This is not an assumption. It is there within the context of the epistle as a whole. For though all Scripture is for us, not all is about us.

Sin is sin. There are no "Jewish sins, and no "Gentile sins". Besides that I know several Gentiles that follow Judaism.

 

[complete]

Rom 3:23; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I agree, everyone has sinned. I also agree there is mercy and forgiveness for believers.
But I believe we have to repent.

Matt 4:17; From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand

Luke 13:5' "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Hello @B-A-C,

Repentance is to turn around and walk in that way no longer. Yes, I agree, we cannot continue in sin. However, your use of Matthew 4:17 and Luke 13:5 are not suitable verses to quote as proof texts for this, for those words were spoken to Israel as a nation, and not to individual believers who have fallen into sin, and in need of forgiveness. It was vital that Israel as a nation should repent for the purposes of God to come to fruition in regard to that nation and the nations of the world through them, but it will one day yet take place. They will see Him whom they pierced and will be brought to repentance.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Sin is sin. There are no "Jewish sins, and no "Gentile sins". Besides that I know several Gentiles that follow Judaism.

Hello @B-A-C,

You are not taking into account the times in which Hebrews was written or the nature of the relationship God had with them. I have not referred to 'Jewish sins' or 'Gentile sins' that is your doing. Please, do not be so quick to dismiss what I have said, for your own sake.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris