Physical suffering worse than spiritual or?

[amadeus2]

Recently it has apparently been suggested that physical suffering is worse than the pain and anguish of the heart and soul of a man. Is this really so?

I certainly believe that the suffering in the garden of Gethsemene was greater for the man Jesus than the suffering on the way to the cross and the suffering on the cross.

On the way to the cross he was undergoing what was written of him but for whom did he suffer and die? It was certainly not for himself.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5

But for himself he did suffer greatly. He overcame everything in him that stood between him and his own ability to accomplish his Father's will.

"And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." Luke 22:44

Only after that was the Way made for Jesus to be to bear what he had to bear. First he had to overcome the ways of his own flesh, which did not want to suffer and die for any reason.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:13

After Jesus had sweat as it were great drops of blood, he then said,

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Only when he submitted his own will to the will of his Father to overcome his own fleshly will, was he able to then go through what he must go through for you and for me. Jesus in his flesh loved his flesh as you and I love our flesh. That as I see it and understand it was his most difficult task.

 

[Travis]

I certainly believe that the suffering in the garden of Gethsemene was greater for the man Jesus than the suffering on the way to the cross and the suffering on the cross.

I had a pair of Mormons try to convince me of the same thing one time.

 

[Itz Me]

Recently it has apparently been suggested that physical suffering is worse than the pain and anguish of the heart and soul of a man. Is this really so?

I certainly believe that the suffering in the garden of Gethsemene was greater for the man Jesus than the suffering on the way to the cross and the suffering on the cross.

On the way to the cross he was undergoing what was written of him but for whom did he suffer and die? It was certainly not for himself.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5

But for himself he did suffer greatly. He overcame everything in him that stood between him and his own ability to accomplish his Father's will.

"And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." Luke 22:44

Only after that was the Way made for Jesus to be to bear what he had to bear. First he had to overcome the ways of his own flesh, which did not want to suffer and die for any reason.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:13

After Jesus had sweat as it were great drops of blood, he then said,

"O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

Only when he submitted his own will to the will of his Father to overcome his own fleshly will, was he able to then go through what he must go through for you and for me. Jesus in his flesh loved his flesh as you and I love our flesh. That as I see it and understand it was his most difficult task.

Hi! 'Amadeus2'
Jesus was surrendered to the devil and to death because of our sins. In the visible world He shed His blood, but in the unseen world these words came true: "Because he poured out his soul to death", (Is 53:12). He delivered us from the power of death by giving himself to the enemy. In Gethsemane He was already surrounded by the powers of death, for He said that His soul was very sorrowful, even to death. At Calvary, moreover, He was also separated from his body, and thus the inner man disappeared entirely in the realm of death, while His body was laid in the dark grave. Death had dominion over him, (Rom 6:9). When Ephesians 4:9 says that He descended into the lower parts of the earth, we understand this as an image because in antiquity people generally thought that Hades was a place underneath the earth. Jesus allowed Himself to be taken away by the powers of death, in order to pay the full price Of His life as a ransom for all who were enslaved in darkness by the powers of sin and sickness and falsehood. "God has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son", (Col 1:13).

 

[Brad Huber]

What pain is worse; your foot being cut off or your nose being cut off? Both are painful both physically and emotionally. Which is the worst pain, physically and emotionally depends on the person. If you have greater vanity, then the nose is worse, if you value work and making a living more, then the foot is worse. Its hard to compare apples to oranges. I personally would say the foot would be worse.

 

[amadeus2]

I had a pair of Mormons try to convince me of the same thing one time.

Sorry I am not a Mormon!

 

[Curtis]

Physical pain is only temporary, spiritual torment is eternal unless God heals your spirit from that condition.

 

[Travis]

Sorry I am not a Mormon!

You might consider looking into what they believe about 'the atonement' as they say it. It sounds very much like what you posted here.

 

[amadeus2]

Hi! 'Amadeus2'
Jesus was surrendered to the devil and to death because of our sins.

In the visible world He shed His blood, but in the unseen world these words came true: "Because he poured out his soul to death", (Is 53:12). He delivered us from the power of death by giving himself to the enemy.

Did he really surrender to the devil or to the enemy? Where is that in scripture?

In Gethsemane He was already surrounded by the powers of death, for He said that His soul was very sorrowful, even to death.

The powers of death are always subject to God, are they not? Yes, Jesus was very sorrowful, but he was also sorely tempted. He was tempted because the man of flesh, like us, did not want to suffer and die. At the same time he knew that the pit in which man was in was bottomless. Alone, man could never get out of it. This is why the price needed to paid by someone who possessed the price. No other man could do, even if one were willing.

At Calvary, moreover, He was also separated from his body, and thus the inner man disappeared entirely in the realm of death, while His body was laid in the dark grave. Death had dominion over him, (Rom 6:9).

The only dominion death had was what had been given. No one forcibly took away the life, but rather Jesus lay it down.

When Ephesians 4:9 says that He descended into the lower parts of the earth, we understand this as an image because in antiquity people generally thought that Hades was a place underneath the earth. Jesus allowed Himself to be taken away by the powers of death, in order to pay the full price Of His life as a ransom for all who were enslaved in darkness by the powers of sin and sickness and falsehood. "God has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son", (Col 1:13).

I see Jesus coming to that place when he came to dwell in corruptible flesh from the time of his natural birth to Mary (or even the time of natural conception). Each of us born to woman is given a little bit of earth in which to dwell. We are given what we are given from that beginning as a natural child without the real Life that Jesus is. A Hope was place before us to come from the death we were in to the Life. Jesus was the first man not born dead, but he was corruptible in his flesh, but never did he allow himself to be corrupted. The last temptation wherein he could have been corrupted, I believe, was in Gethsemene. He made it. He was able for the first time to say these words:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33

Jesus did not overcome planet earth. Rather he overcame the last temptation of the world of the man Jesus. Then as a qualified sacrifice he went onto pay the price to make it possible for others to also become overcomers. Before his sacrifice that was not possible. Jesus opened the Door (himself being that Door/Gate) which was shut and guarded by God to keep us out until we had something, or were something, able to pass through fire of the sword to reach the Tree of Life.

 

[amadeus2]

What pain is worse; your foot being cut off or your nose being cut off? Both are painful both physically and emotionally. Which is the worst pain, physically and emotionally depends on the person. If you have greater vanity, then the nose is worse, if you value work and making a living more, then the foot is worse. Its hard to compare apples to oranges. I personally would say the foot would be worse.

Who are we to make such a comparison until we have personally experienced both? Some of us may have experienced physical suffering as well as a deeper pain and anguish of heart and soul. When someone testifies that he/she has done so, who but God is able to properly measure that person's experiences?

Remember again the word written by Paul:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

 

[amadeus2]

Physical pain is only temporary, spiritual torment is eternal unless God heals your spirit from that condition.

I doubt the eternal torment part.

 

[amadeus2]

You might consider looking into what they believe about 'the atonement' as they say it. It sounds very much like what you posted here.

No, the truth is in Jesus. The way to that Truth or to more of it is through the Holy Ghost. Only God gives any real increase. He may or may not work through another person to do it.

 

[Curtis]

I doubt the eternal torment part.

Fear is a "spiritual" condition brought on because of spiritual death. Fear hath "torment". This is a permanent condition that will last for eternity, unless Jesus heals that persons heart!!!

Heb 2:14 Those children have bodies made out of flesh and blood. So Jesus became human like them in order to die for them. By doing that, he could destroy the one who rules over the kingdom of death. I'm talking about the devil.
Heb 2:15 Jesus could set people free who were afraid of death. All their lives they were held as slaves by that fear.

 

[amadeus2]

Fear is a "spiritual" condition brought on because of spiritual death. Fear hath "torment". This is a permanent condition that will last for eternity, unless Jesus heals that persons heart!!!

Heb 2:14 Those children have bodies made out of flesh and blood. So Jesus became human like them in order to die for them. By doing that, he could destroy the one who rules over the kingdom of death. I'm talking about the devil.
Heb 2:15 Jesus could set people free who were afraid of death. All their lives they were held as slaves by that fear.

Jesus is able to heal a willing heart, but eternal life belongs only to those who are given Life. If you do not understand my meaning I guess I am unable to clarify here. Some types of discussions are not allowed here.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus is able to heal a willing heart, but eternal life belongs only to those who are given Life. If you do not understand my meaning I guess I am unable to clarify here. Some types of discussions are not allowed here.

You asked what is worse physical suffering or spiritual suffering. I said spiritual suffering is much more worse as it is eternal unless a person becomes born again.

 

[amadeus2]

You asked what is worse physical suffering or spiritual suffering. I said spiritual suffering is much more worse as it is eternal unless a person becomes born again.

The part I doubted was a person who was not born again having eternal suffering of any kind.

 

[Travis]

I certainly believe that the suffering in the garden of Gethsemene was greater for the man Jesus than the suffering on the way to the cross and the suffering on the cross.

"Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind, even as many as will, shall be redeemed. The Savior began shedding His blood for all mankind, not on the cross but in the Garden of Gethsemane. There He took upon Himself the weight of the sins of all who would ever live. Under that [page 6] heavy load, He bled at every pore," (Russell M. Nelson, "His Mission and Ministry," New Era, Dec. 1999, p. 4, 6, emphasis mine).

"Our church believes that Christ's crucifixion was an important part of the atonement, but we believe that a more important part was when he suffered for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane," ("Q&A: Questions and Answers," New Era, Sept. 1996, p. 18, emphasis mine).

"In our Church, we believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (third article of faith). He explained that the atonement allows each of us to be forgiven of our sins if we repent. Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane. As the only perfect person who ever lived on earth, He was the only one who could do this for us. We could not do it for ourselves. Without His sacrifice, we could never be forgiven of our sins and would not be able to live with Heavenly Father and Jesus again," (Laurel Rohlfing, "Sharing Time: The Atonement," Friend, Mar. 1989, p. 39, emphasis mine).

"There is perhaps one other occasion on which Michael, as a spirit, may have played a particularly significant role in the plan of our Father. Luke records that on the night of Atonement, following the Last Supper, Jesus bowed in awful alienation and grief in the Garden of Gethsemane beneath the load of the world's sins. He uttered his soul-cry: 'Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done,'" (Robert L. Millet, "The Man Adam," Liahona, Feb. 1998, p. 19, emphasis mine).

"The Savior atoned for our sins by suffering in Gethsemane and by giving his life on the cross. It is impossible for us to fully understand how he suffered for all of our sins. In the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of our sins caused him to feel such agony and heartbreak that be bled from every pore (see D&C 19:18-19). Later, as he hung upon the cross, Jesus suffered painful death by one of the most cruel methods known to man," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, p. 66, emphasis mine).

More information here:

Mormonism|And the Atonement of Jesus|Mormon Teaches the Atonement Occurred Primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane|

 

[amadeus2]

More information here:

Mormonism|And the Atonement of Jesus|Mormon Teaches the Atonement Occurred Primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane|

And your point is? Because I may agree with the Mormons on some points I must especially be in error! Without a doubt I am in error in some measure.

What about this verse?

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged." Rom 3:4

All of us, who do not know all of the truth and ever open our mouths without absolute knowledge, are liars. That is me and that is you, isn't it? But, God hasn't written us off, has He? There is still hope if we just learn to accept that some of what we say is wrong.

Let us not leave it there:

"Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up." James 4:8-10