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PERFECTIONISM FROM SIN

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Loyal Member
Does scripture teach perfectionism from sin?

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he (Jesus) has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
What has Jesus perfected in those that are sanctified forever from?
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

What did the bringing in of a better hope make perfect?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year “continually” make the comers thereunto perfect.

What was it that the sacrifices could not make perfect as pertaining to the comers?

If the sacrifices under the old covenant could have taken away sin, should the worshipers have a consciousness of sin?

And if the new covenant believers know that they will sin again, just like the old covenant believers, then they both have a consciousness of sin. Therefore, just as the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins, the blood of Jesus would not have taken away sins. But we know that Jesus took away sins, so the believers should now not have a consciousness of sin.

Heb 10:2 (GW) If these sacrifices (under the law) could have made the worshipers perfect, the sacrifices would have stopped long ago. Those who worship would have been cleansed once and for all. Their consciences would have been free from sin.

If a person has a rememberance of sin, they have a consciousness of sin.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices (under the law) there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

It seems the perfectionism from sin is something that GOD did when He placed upon Jesus “all” the sins of the world forever. Jesus did not die for the actions of men, but He died for the label known as sin which came through the law. It is only by the law that the knowledge of sin is. (Romans 3:20)

Rom 4:15 Because the law works wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The disobedience of the law is what angered GOD, so when He crucified the law and its ordinances, His wrath subsided. Not just for believers, but for unbelievers also at this time, because no man can be justified by the law. Only by the law is the knowledge of sin. This is true for GOD and man.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Gal 3:19 (GW) What, then, is the purpose of the laws given to Moses? They were added to identify what wrongdoing is. Moses' laws did this until the descendant to whom the promise was given came. It was put into effect through angels, using a mediator.

What is the difference between the covenant of Law, and the covenant of Grace where sin is concerned? Answer: Sin is not imputed where there is no law; GOD is not imputing sin, nor does He have a consciousness of man’s sins; past, present or future.

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin “was” in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

G1677 (impute)
el-log-eh'-o
From G1722 and G3056 (in the sense of account); to reckon in, that is, attribute: - impute, put on account.

Because we know that GOD is not “reckoning” believers to sin, nor is He charging it to their Heavenly account, why do believer reckon it unto themselves?

Rom 6:10 For in that he (Jesus) died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Every believer should reckon themselves to be inactive where sin is concerned. Sin is no longer the label for their actions, but unfruitful works or dead works is. This is what will cause a believer to become “lukewarm” and “tares” in the body of Christ; being in danger what Matthews 13:41 states:

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his (Jesus’) kingdom (the Body of Christ) all things that offend, and them which do iniquity (Lawlessness);
 
Loyal Member
Does scripture teach perfectionism from sin?
Perfection as in 100% sinless, no. Perfection as in 100% acceptable to God, yes. As your quoted scripture Heb 10:14 clearly states 'For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified'. Jesus is our perfection.
 
Active Member
Does scripture teach perfectionism from sin?

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he (Jesus) has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
What has Jesus perfected in those that are sanctified forever from?
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

What did the bringing in of a better hope make perfect?

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year “continually” make the comers thereunto perfect.

What was it that the sacrifices could not make perfect as pertaining to the comers?

If the sacrifices under the old covenant could have taken away sin, should the worshipers have a consciousness of sin?

And if the new covenant believers know that they will sin again, just like the old covenant believers, then they both have a consciousness of sin. Therefore, just as the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins, the blood of Jesus would not have taken away sins. But we know that Jesus took away sins, so the believers should now not have a consciousness of sin.

Heb 10:2 (GW) If these sacrifices (under the law) could have made the worshipers perfect, the sacrifices would have stopped long ago. Those who worship would have been cleansed once and for all. Their consciences would have been free from sin.

If a person has a rememberance of sin, they have a consciousness of sin.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices (under the law) there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

It seems the perfectionism from sin is something that GOD did when He placed upon Jesus “all” the sins of the world forever. Jesus did not die for the actions of men, but He died for the label known as sin which came through the law. It is only by the law that the knowledge of sin is. (Romans 3:20)

Rom 4:15 Because the law works wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

The disobedience of the law is what angered GOD, so when He crucified the law and its ordinances, His wrath subsided. Not just for believers, but for unbelievers also at this time, because no man can be justified by the law. Only by the law is the knowledge of sin. This is true for GOD and man.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Gal 3:19 (GW) What, then, is the purpose of the laws given to Moses? They were added to identify what wrongdoing is. Moses' laws did this until the descendant to whom the promise was given came. It was put into effect through angels, using a mediator.

What is the difference between the covenant of Law, and the covenant of Grace where sin is concerned? Answer: Sin is not imputed where there is no law; GOD is not imputing sin, nor does He have a consciousness of man’s sins; past, present or future.

Rom 5:13 For until the law sin “was” in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

G1677 (impute)
el-log-eh'-o
From G1722 and G3056 (in the sense of account); to reckon in, that is, attribute: - impute, put on account.

Because we know that GOD is not “reckoning” believers to sin, nor is He charging it to their Heavenly account, why do believer reckon it unto themselves?

Rom 6:10 For in that he (Jesus) died, he died unto sin once: but in that he lives, he lives unto God.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Every believer should reckon themselves to be inactive where sin is concerned. Sin is no longer the label for their actions, but unfruitful works or dead works is. This is what will cause a believer to become “lukewarm” and “tares” in the body of Christ; being in danger what Matthews 13:41 states:

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his (Jesus’) kingdom (the Body of Christ) all things that offend, and them which do iniquity (Lawlessness);
@regibassman57
in the proper context yes.

Philippians 4:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Genesis 6:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Hebrews 6 King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.



Also Enoch may have also been perfect and also Shem or Melchizedek

My theory is they may have already been counted as perfect thru the future foreshadowing of the passover lamb. I do not think I am wrong but even if i am theyre are individuals in the Old Testament counted as perfect simply based off their heart being turned to God "perhaps"

This is a tricky subject because scripture also says

Romans 3:23
“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Ecclesiastes 7:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Maybe I should try contextualize it all to gain further understanding.
 
Loyal Member
King J,
When Jesus returns will He deal with the beiever's sin situation? Will He judge their sins?

Also, what are the sins of a believer and is sin in their flesh or spirit?
 
Loyal Member
This is to King J. and Ivar,
The law made nothing perfect (Heb. 7:19), what is it the law could not perfect, and what does that mean?
But the bringing in of a better hope did. Who is the hope and what did the hope make perfect?

And what is the definition of "from?"
 
Active Member
This is to King J. and Ivar,
The law made nothing perfect (Heb. 7:19), what is it the law could not perfect, and what does that mean?
But the bringing in of a better hope did. Who is the hope and what did the hope make perfect?

And what is the definition of "from?"
Verse 11 and verse 16 in Hebrews Chapter 7 seems to give the context of Hebrews verse 19. Also the law is good if used lawfully. Lastly spirit of the law can lead towards perfection

Definition of FROM
 
Loyal Member
As you said Ivar, verses 11 and 16 gives context to making my point. Perfection or completion came by our hope Jesus. The law made nothing perfect, but Jesus did.

Jesus separated man from sin, the law could not do this. To be separated from something is to divide from or no longer be part of. We as believers are separate from sinners. We are not in the same category. Sinners sin, believer are incapable of sin; but they are not incapable of doing unfruitful works. Sin defiles which causes a person to be less than holy.

Hebrews 7:26
For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

The law or Levitical priesthood could not make a man righteous "from" sin because of the blood of the body. Jesus shed His blood which was man's blood; not animal blood; two different types of blood. If there was another man that had "zero" sin in his blood it would have been sufficient; but there was no man.

Acts 13:39
And by Jesus all that believe are justified (made Righteous) "from" all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

The only thing the Law of Moses was not sufficient for and could not do was take away sins. The law could do everything else. It could make a person rich, heal, etc. Deuteronomy 28: 1-14.
 
Active Member
Loving God with all your heart, soul, might, and ,strength makes nothing or no one perfect? Perhaps the context is the law of animal sacrifices under the levitical priesthood.
 
Loyal Member
Ivar,
I agree that loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength could not make a person perfect under the law, neither can it make a person perfect "from sin" under the New Covenant. There is nothing that a man could do to make himself perfect from sin (Tit. 3:5; Eph 2:8, 9). Jesus made believers perfect "from" sin through His perfect blood. You could look at it as a "blood transfusion." The blood of man became defiled because life is in the blood (Lev. 17:11)

Yes, the context is animal sacrifices and they could not make the people perfect from sin (Heb. 10:1, 2, 3, 4).

Ivar, look at the definition of "from." We've been made free "from" sin.

Definition of "from:" denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed "from sin."

Rom 6:18 Being then made free "from sin," ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free "from sin," and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

If you are separated from something, you don't have it. It's not with you.
 
Loyal Member
Ivar,
Do you believe you have been "saved" from sin? And do you believe you have been healed from sin?

I believe my spirit has been saved from sin (thank you Jesus) and gives me power (through Jesus over my sinful flesh to say no to sin this happens after being born again. Before I was born again I had no power (from Jesus) to say no to sin

what do you believe? as far as your question is concerned @regibassman57

thanks
 
Loyal Member
Dave M. and Ivar,

I asked you do you believe you are saved? I was asked what I believe. This is what I believe:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are we “saved” through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It seem both of you “do not agree” with Ephesians 2:8, 9. You are saying what “you” can or cannot do where salvation from sin is concerned. Ephesians 2:8, 9 is not talking about eternal life, the context is about sin from verse 1-9. You are saying “you” still sin because of “your” actions. Your actions did not cause you to be a sinner or sin (Romans 5:12), because “you” were never justified by the law that told you, you sinned (Romans 7:1-6); and God is not imputing sin unto you after becoming a believer (Romans 4:8; 2Corinthians 5:19).

I asked, do you believe you are “healed from sin?

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he said unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus is the physician that heals every unbeliever from sin when they come to Him; once for all (1Peter 2:24; Hebrews 10:10, 12) If you still sin, then Jesus did not heal you and you are not saved from sin. If you are not saved from sin, you are not in Christ; because the spirit of God cannot be in the same body of sin (1Corithians 6:19). Dave, Jesus did not die in the spirit, He died in the fleshly body to heal the body (Hebrew 10:5); The only thing that happened with the body, it reaped what Adam sowed in it (Galatians 6:7,8), which is death. This is why we will receive a new body.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

A sinner became righteous because they repented from sins; you cannot be righteous is you still sin. The righteous person is the person that repented from sin. Once you become righteous, you need no repentance (that is what the verse says.) What did a person repent from to become righteous?

If you are separated from something, it is not in your possession and you have no possession of it. In this case it’s sin.
 
Loyal Member
Dave M,
I can definitely appreciate everything you just replied. I was not "outright" saying you didn't agree with scripture. Thanks for affirming your position which leaves no doubts. And because you believe what you read, scripturally in God's word, I hope I'm helpful through this discussion. I've been help as well.
 
Active Member
I
Dave M. and Ivar,

I asked you do you believe you are saved? I was asked what I believe. This is what I believe:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are we “saved” through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It seem both of you “do not agree” with Ephesians 2:8, 9. You are saying what “you” can or cannot do where salvation from sin is concerned. Ephesians 2:8, 9 is not talking about eternal life, the context is about sin from verse 1-9. You are saying “you” still sin because of “your” actions. Your actions did not cause you to be a sinner or sin (Romans 5:12), because “you” were never justified by the law that told you, you sinned (Romans 7:1-6); and God is not imputing sin unto you after becoming a believer (Romans 4:8; 2Corinthians 5:19).

I asked, do you believe you are “healed from sin?

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he said unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus is the physician that heals every unbeliever from sin when they come to Him; once for all (1Peter 2:24; Hebrews 10:10, 12) If you still sin, then Jesus did not heal you and you are not saved from sin. If you are not saved from sin, you are not in Christ; because the spirit of God cannot be in the same body of sin (1Corithians 6:19). Dave, Jesus did not die in the spirit, He died in the fleshly body to heal the body (Hebrew 10:5); The only thing that happened with the body, it reaped what Adam sowed in it (Galatians 6:7,8), which is death. This is why we will receive a new body.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

A sinner became righteous because they repented from sins; you cannot be righteous is you still sin. The righteous person is the person that repented from sin. Once you become righteous, you need no repentance (that is what the verse says.) What did a person repent from to become righteous?

If you are separated from something, it is not in your possession and you have no possession of it. In this case it’s sin.

@regibassman57

These are my thoughts:

At the end of the day I am not 100% certain if my name will remain in the book of life or if it may have already been blotted out the book of life. I do not have that discernment.

That is why I answered:

I would hope I am as would anyone else . That is a question I may not have the answer until on my death bed.
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In the meantime I should work towards making that hope a reality.

Paul spoke as one who abides in Christ. If one abides in Christ and endures until the end then faith would be a gift of God.

Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
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Loyal Member
I asked you do you believe you are saved? I was asked what I believe. This is what I believe:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are we “saved” through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I work because I am saved, for we have been saved for good works.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
 
Loyal Member
Ivar,
You can be 100% sure.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that love not his brother abides in death.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted Jesus saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 10:26 He said unto him, what is written in the law? how readest thou?

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself.

Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou has answered right: this do, and thou shall live.

Everyman knows how they feel about another person.Loving your brother is not about emotions; how you feel about them, but it's about how God commands us to treat our brother. If we hold grudges, cursing folk outs, fighting, stealing from,etc. We know this is "unfruitful" and will not develop Christ's character is us. God has given us the power to be obedient and become, in character, sons to Him (John 1:12) but it's our choice. We can bring forth the character of Christ.

Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he become unfruitful.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hear the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
 
Active Member
Where I am I cannot say 100%. However explaining could cause me to be a stumbling block to some. So I haven't. What I can say though; Is that I believe in a level of accountability which does not contradict the scriptures.
 
Loyal Member
Dave,
I agree with why you say you work; from the position of being saved. It is our responsibility to put on Christ's character if we say we believe. Christ is our Lord, if we say so.

Luk 6:46 And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47
Whosoever comes to me, and hears my sayings, and does them, I will show you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that hears, and does not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Eph 4:22 Put off concerning the former conversation/behavior of the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is our work if we say we believe.
 

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