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Perfect Jesus

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My son's just come back from a discussion about Jesus. We got on to a conversation about Jesus being perfect - what does it mean, and how does it relate to him being human?

Thinking it through, we landed on some ideas

  1. Jesus lived a life entirely free of sin
  2. but that does not mean that he never made a mistake - there's room for him to sometimes get his sums wrong or to split a piece a wood while working as a carpenter
  3. and to accidentally tread on somebody's toe.
The first is a point of doctrine. No argument about that. The other two, I think, are speculation. Interested in anybody else's thoughts
 
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Depending on who's perspective, ours or God's. Maybe the toe needed to get stepped on?

Must have been an awesome talk to have with your son.

Truly a blessing.

YBIC
Nick
<><
 
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Perfect Jesus, whether we understand it or not is easier to accept than the need for us to overcome in order to receive the promises to the seven churches in Rev chapters 2 and 3. Jesus made it a possibility for us, but we need to step out in faith into the Way that He has opened.
 
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Perfect Jesus, whether we understand it or not is easier to accept than the need for us to overcome in order to receive the promises to the seven churches in Rev chapters 2 and 3. Jesus made it a possibility for us, but we need to step out in faith into the Way that He has opened.
Sorry, I don't really understand what you are getting at here. Please could you explain it a little more? Thanks
 
Loyal
Sorry, I don't really understand what you are getting at here. Please could you explain it a little more? Thanks
Very simply in the 2 chapters I mentioned [2 & 3 ] of the Book of Revelation in the part of each of the seven churches there is a verse which describes the reward for overcomers:

Rev 2:7
"...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Rev 2:11
"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

Rev 2:17
"...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it."

Rev 2:26
"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:"

Rev 3:5
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

Rev 3:12
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Rev 3:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

To me this means we need to be overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer in order to receive the rewards mentioned. Jesus, in addition to overcoming himself, also made it possible for us to overcome. We should be working to do just that. He did provide everything that was necessary to accomplish it.

What I see is that Jesus overcame the temptations of his own body [world] of flesh. This He did before He was crucified. The crucifixion and the gift of the Holy Spirit [Acts 2] made it possible for you and I to do the same... that is overcome.

What he overcame are the three things listed in this verse:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Those three things until they are completely overcome will when followed lead us back into sin repeatedly.
 
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OK. I understand the Revelation passages, but am not sure how you see them relating to the ideas I was exploring in the first post.

How would you respond to these speculative scenarios
  • Could you imagine Jesus mishearing an instruction and making a mess of a job because of it?
  • Did Jesus ever cause an accident through clumsiness?
  • Did Jesus always give the correct answer while being educated?
  • Was Jesus ever so exhausted that he was unable to give a person the attention they deserved?
These aren't mean to be flippant questions - the issue beneath them is: what does it mean to be perfect?

In my own life - even if I reached the peak of a holy, prayerful, spirit-filled life - my hearing isn't all that special, so if you ask me to buy fork handles, I'm quite likely to come home with four candles.
 
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In my own life - even if I reached the peak of a holy, prayerful, spirit-filled life - my hearing isn't all that special, so if you ask me to buy fork handles, I'm quite likely to come home with four candles.
I'm in the same boat as the hearing goes! With that being said....I'll trade you the four candles for the fork handles I bought by mistake. :smile:

Just a little interlude to the discussion.
YBIC
Nick
<><
 
Loyal
OK. I understand the Revelation passages, but am not sure how you see them relating to the ideas I was exploring in the first post.

How would you respond to these speculative scenarios
  • Could you imagine Jesus mishearing an instruction and making a mess of a job because of it?
Did Jesus ever make a mistake? In a sense, yes, but when he did he recovered from before it ever became sin, For example:

"And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them." Luke 2:48-50

Jesus was the very Word of God, but one of his purposes in coming to planet Earth as a man was to overcome the things which hinder men and to make it possible for other men to overcome them as well. He knew at 12 years old what his Father's business for him [Jesus] was, but he did not fully understand what a man had to do to accomplish it as a man [not as God or the Son of God]. So then...

" And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.

And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:51-52

Jesus was always without sin, but his experience was incomplete for he had never previously been the child of a natural mother with all that that meant. His purpose in dealing with the "doctors" was God's ultimate purpose for him, but it wasn't time yet. First he needed to serve really as a child obeying his parents [Mary and Joseph] as a child was supposed to obey. He never failed in that point again for to have done so would have been to sin and we know that he never did.

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

Did Jesus ever cause an accident through clumsiness?
If he did, I do not recall it, but even so what would that have to do with the perfection which God describes? God gave David the words to relate to them to his son, Solomon, who was to be the King of Israel:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

Solomon stumbled and did not stay within the guidelines defined by David, but that doesn't mean the guidelines themselves were wrong, does it? This is why Solomon, himself, is led later to write:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

The heart of David was always right toward the Lord even though he sometimes stumbled. Not so with his predecessor, Saul, the previous King of Israel. Both of them were anointed by the prophet Samuel, but David was never rejected by God because he was always quick to admit his faults and willing to receive whatever blame was his own. Not so Saul who tried to justify himself and/or blame others for his own mistakes.

Did Jesus always give the correct answer while being educated?
We may be certain that he always gave God's answer, but as we likely already know from our own experience in the schools of men, that that does not stop men from pushing along in their own ways:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

Was Jesus ever so exhausted that he was unable to give a person the attention they deserved?
Do we suppose that Jesus was supposed to minister to every man that he encountered during his ministry [3½ years]?

"And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?" Luke 12:13-14

Were all possible judgments that could be made with regard to men properly part of God's plan? If they were, Jesus apparently was not to accomplish them all personally as a man working the work of God. Consider that Jesus, the man of flesh, was not the ONLY instrument of
God in that time.

Consider another example:

"And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full.
And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?
And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?" Matt 4:37-40

How helpless are we really? How important was it for the storm to be stilled in the eyes of God? Would the men have necessarily have lost the most important thing if they had been washed overboard and drowned?

Of course, what did Jesus mean by that final underlined question? "How is it that ye have no faith"? Men must trust in God. How often have we since we first believed lacked the faith to step out as God certainly desired that we step out?

These aren't mean to be flippant questions - the issue beneath them is: what does it mean to be perfect?

In my own life - even if I reached the peak of a holy, prayerful, spirit-filled life - my hearing isn't all that special, so if you ask me to buy fork handles, I'm quite likely to come home with four candles.
Naivety or lack of intelligence as men would define intelligence are never our problem in serving God as He desires. God knows exactly what He has given us and what He has not given us. God is more concerned with our availability that with our ability. If we remember David's words to Solomon and ask God to help us to make it so for us, will He refuse us?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7
 
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  1. Jesus lived a life entirely free of sin
  2. but that does not mean that he never made a mistake - there's room for him to sometimes get his sums wrong or to split a piece a wood while working as a carpenter
  3. and to accidentally tread on somebody's toe.
The first is a point of doctrine. No argument about that. The other two, I think, are speculation. Interested in anybody else's thoughts
Greetings @Hekuran

I don't believe the Lord Jesus ever made a mistake.
I do not believe He was able to make a mistake or have an accident.
 
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I cannot help but be amused at the thought of Jesus traveling with his disciples, only to stub his toe on a rock in the desert and exclaim something to the tune of, "Oh me!".

While Jesus was certainly here to give an example of a perfect life, and was without sin, are there not things in the world that are morally and spiritually 'neutral'? To be lost in thought and spill a cup of hot coffee on yourself can hardly be said to be an act of sin, can it?
Did Adam and Eve blunder around the Garden of Eden, tripping over roots and bumping their heads on branches before ever tasting of the forbidden fruit?
Is my Siamese cat a servant of evil because he caused me to fall down the stairs in my apartment?(On second thought...)

Sin, according to 1 John 3:4(KJV) is as follows: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

According to that, sin is a willful rebellion against God. I can't say I've ever willfully run a fingernail along a chalkboard in school, or willfully set myself aflame while lighting candles at Christmas.

Is a 'perfect life' one without any form of mistakes whatsoever? -and does being 'all knowing' mean you can interpret all information simultaneously and without error, thus avoiding any sort of mis-step? Does this mean Jesus knew what was on the other side of closed doors?

Would he be a flawless poker player? If he was, and was using his infinite knowledge to 'see' everyone else's cards, would he be 'cheating'? Does he know their next move before they make it? Would Jesus be logically unable to play games of wit at all, given that if he 'lost' it would have to be because he let someone else win?

Animals cannot sin, but I've seen horses perform accidental back-flips, cats leap into closed windows, and dogs run through screen doors.

I could go on and turn this into a full fledged study, but I unfortunately have other obligations. Still, an amusing and interesting subject!
 
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Greetings @Hekuran

I don't believe the Lord Jesus ever made a mistake.
I do not believe He was able to make a mistake or have an accident.
Greetings @Fragrant Grace

I want to be clear first of all that I am not trying to be needlessly flippant in this thread. The questions may be silly, but the deeper question I am exploring is 'what does it mean for God to live as a man?'

I'm really interested in your answer and,though I don't think I agree with you, I would love to know a bit more about how you arrived at it...
 
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