Pentecostalism

[B-A-C]

This is one area where the church seems to be split. I've never really understood this one personally.

The main issue appears to be the gifts of the Spirit.

1 Cor 12:5; And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
1 Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Cor 12:11; But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

I myself could be considered Pentecostal. I have seen all of the gifts above many times in my life. I can't say I go along 100% with everything some Pentecostal churches teach.
But I really can't say that about any church.

Why would God stop giving a word of wisdom? Or a word of knowledge? Or Healing? Or speaking in tongues? Again, I think much of this is misunderstood.
There are rules about these things.

1 Cor 14:2; For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 Cor 14:3; But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
1 Cor 14:4; One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

1 Cor 14:6; But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

1 Cor 14:13; Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Cor 14:22; So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

1 Cor 14:27; If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
1 Cor 14:28; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
1 Cor 14:29; Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

1 Cor 14:33; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
1 Cor 14:34; The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

If you don't have these things in your church, you are missing out on a lot of God's power.

Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

1 Cor 12:29; All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1 Cor 12:30; All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

1 Cor 14:5; Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

1 Cor 14:39; Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

Acts 2:17; 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

1 Tim 2:8; Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

There are more verses, but you get the idea. I've always wondered, how can some churches just leave out all these verses?
Do these churches not believe in healing? Or prophecy? Is there any sign of God's power at all in these churches?

 

[james1523]

Before Pentecostalism, did no churches have the Spirit or see miracles or use the gifts? Of course they did. Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian, you name it, have all experienced God's miracle working power and the gifts. God's power is not all about the outward things, miracles and gifts. It's also about self-control, restraint, long-suffering, endurance, eternal life, freedom from bondage. Pentecostalism falls short because it tends to overemphasize the gifts and miracles (generally speaking). Yet I have been part of Pentecostal churches that are fairly balanced. In general if any church, Pentecostal or not, rejects the Spirit, they lack power for life and ministry. But it's not all about outward show and performance and speaking in tongues. It depends upon whether the speaker is speaking from the Spirit within them or from their mind or emotions, not whether they use funny jokes or use great intellect and emotion. I believe that much in Pentecostalism is soul-worship that touches the emotions, not spirit worship. I wonder if the "Spirit" would move as easily if they did not play the soul-moving music that goes along with it.

 

[B-A-C]

Before Pentecostalism, did no churches have the Spirit or see miracles or use the gifts? Of course they did. Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian, you name it, have all experienced God's miracle working power and the gifts.

I guess that depends on what (when?) you define Pentecostalism. Most of us Pentecostals believe the first Pentecostals were in the time of the Apostles (Acts 2; for example) long before any of those denominations existed.

God's power is not all about the outward things, miracles and gifts. It's also about self-control, restraint, long-suffering, endurance, eternal life, freedom from bondage.

In principle I agree with you, however even these things exhibit some outward sign. A change in behavior, a change in priorities, a change in lifestyle should be evident. The fruits of the Spirit should be evident.

Pentecostalism falls short because it tends to overemphasize the gifts and miracles (generally speaking). Yet I have been part of Pentecostal churches that are fairly balanced.

I really can't disagree with this, some get caught up in miracles and tongues, but I think all denominations are somewhat guilty of over emphasizing that one thing that differentiates them. (Calvinism, Antimonianism, Pentecostalism, Roman Catholicism, etc...)

I wonder if the "Spirit" would move as easily if they did not play the soul-moving music that goes along with it.

Personally I see it happen without the music more often than with.

But it's not all about outward show and performance and speaking in tongues. It depends upon whether the speaker is speaking from the Spirit within them or from their mind or emotions, not whether they use funny jokes or use great intellect and emotion.

Again, I agree, but why limit the Spirit to only those things?

 

[B-A-C]

I received a private message about this from someone who "prefers to remain anonymous".

1 Cor 13:8; Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1 Cor 13:9; For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
1 Cor 13:10; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

They take the verses above to say that the gifts of the Spirit are "done away" with.

When the perfect comes. This could mean a couple of things. Jesus was perfect wasn't He?
It could also mean the age when death and sin are done away with.

If it is Jesus, remember that Acts 2 happened after Jesus ascended back to heaven.
Also the conversion of Saul into Paul happened well after Jesus ascended back into heaven, and the letter of 1 Corinthians happened well after that (at least 3 years later... Gal 1:17-18; ) so it seems unlikely that it's talking about Jesus since He was already ascended.

Also, if we say prophecy and tongues are done away with, don't we also have to include that wisdom and knowledge are also done away with?
If this is true, do verses like James 1:5; still apply?

 

[james1523]

1 Cor 13:10 must refer to the next age. Prophecy and tongues cannot have ceased otherwise Paul would not have encouraged their use in 1 Cor 14:1-5.

 

[farout]

This is one area where the church seems to be split. I've never really understood this one personally.

The main issue appears to be the gifts of the Spirit.

1 Cor 12:5; And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
1 Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Cor 12:11; But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

I myself could be considered Pentecostal. I have seen all of the gifts above many times in my life. I can't say I go along 100% with everything some Pentecostal churches teach.
But I really can't say that about any church.

Why would God stop giving a word of wisdom? Or a word of knowledge? Or Healing? Or speaking in tongues? Again, I think much of this is misunderstood.
There are rules about these things.

1 Cor 14:2; For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.
1 Cor 14:3; But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation.
1 Cor 14:4; One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

1 Cor 14:6; But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

1 Cor 14:13; Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

1 Cor 14:22; So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

1 Cor 14:27; If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
1 Cor 14:28; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
1 Cor 14:29; Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

1 Cor 14:33; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
1 Cor 14:34; The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

If you don't have these things in your church, you are missing out on a lot of God's power.

Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

1 Cor 12:29; All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1 Cor 12:30; All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

1 Cor 14:5; Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

1 Cor 14:39; Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

Acts 2:17; 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

1 Tim 2:8; Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.

There are more verses, but you get the idea. I've always wondered, how can some churches just leave out all these verses?
Do these churches not believe in healing? Or prophecy? Is there any sign of God's power at all in these churches?

Without causing any issues, my I suggest you read the book STRANGE FIRE by John MacArthur. AT least that way it might allow you to see where some people are coming from. I mean no disrespect at all.

 

[B-A-C]

my I suggest you read the book STRANGE FIRE by John MacArthur. AT least that way it might allow you to see where some people are coming from.

I have not read the entire book, but I have read a few excerpts. He teaches the theory of cessation. Some things in the Bible, (in this case Pentecostalism) no
longer apply to the church. I have to get up on my soapbox and rant for a minute here.

I have a real problem with people (so called teachers) who say that parts of the Bible don't apply anymore. This is very similar to the warning in Rev 22:19;
There is a group that says non of the Old testament applies, there is a group that says the 10 commandments don't apply anymore, there is a group that says most of the Bible was written only to the Jews, there is a group that says parts of the New Testament don't apply anymore (Macarthur?) and there is a group that says hardly any of the Bible applies anymore, all you have to do is believe in Jesus.

Who are we to pick and choose what parts of the Bible apply and don't apply. What parts are for us, and the parts that are for someone else. I know many
(I call them pagan-christians) who say all that stuff about homosexuality and such don't apply anymore. Man and society are what sets the rules, not God.
Are they not making themselves God?

OK, back off my soapbox... for now

 

[Hashe]

I too find it sad that some people say the gifts of the spirit are no longer applicable. I know of some amazing experiences of miracles. Do we just discount these?
The cessation theory teaches that when the Bible came, the spirit left. This is a major stretch of 1 Cor 13. Clearly in context, the Perfect talks about the next age, when we see Jesus face to face and our knowledge is perfect. It is a classic example of people reading into Scripture something that isn't there.
One of the biggest reasons the church discouraged things like prophecy was because of teaches like Marcion of Sinope and his 'prophetesses'. Without having the bible, which wasn't really agreed upon as a list until the 4th Century, people went around teaching some strange things claiming divine inspiration.
Modern Pentecostalism is usually defined as starting with the Azusa St 'revival' in the early 20th Century but Pentecostalism is about more than just the gifts of the spirit. It is often associated with a great believe that God is active in this world in many ways.

 

[Hekuran]

I would say that the defining doctrine of Pentecostalism is that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event which follows conversion. Pentecostals teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the gift to live out the power of the gospel, and is usually accompanied by speaking in tongues.

That's the theology. In practice it means that within Pentecostalism there is an emphasis on signs and wonders and demonstrations of power.

So in my book not everybody who believes and receives the gifts of the spirit today is a Pentecostal.

 

[B-A-C]

I would say that the defining doctrine of Pentecostalism is that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event which follows conversion. Pentecostals teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the gift to live out the power of the gospel, and is usually accompanied by speaking in tongues.

I'm not sure if this is the case for all Pentecostals, but certainly many. The largest Pentecostal church (Assemblies of God) actually hold as doctrine that unless you speak in tongues (at least once) you are not baptized with the Holy Spirit. Also they hold that baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event from receiving the Holy Spirit. I have to confess, I am a little confused as to why they are viewed separately.

 

[faithfulservant]

Without causing any issues, my I suggest you read the book STRANGE FIRE by John MacArthur. AT least that way it might allow you to see where some people are coming from. I mean no disrespect at all.

And I would suggest people read "Authentic Fire" by Dr. Michael Brown which gives sound Biblical refutation to John MacArthur's cessationist viewpoint.

When the perfect comes, we will see Him face to face. So the argument that suggests that text means the perfect is the Bible is unbiblical.

Jesus wondered if He would find faith on the earth when He returned. I am going to say that He will, but not in everyone, unfortunately.

The gifts of the Spirit are for the empowerment of ministry. Anyone who has humbly sought to minister without restraining the Holy Spirit's power will readily recognize God still heals, works miracles, gives prophetic words, and anoints any sincere effort to bring people to Him.

Why anyone would resist this power is stunning to me. The fruit of it clearly gives glory to God and brings people to Jesus in a much more efficient and effective manner. But... Those who can receive this should receive it.

 

[Hashe]

There is one school of thought that defines Pentecostals as those who believe the baptism of the spirit as a separate event from salvation.
This happens in a number of places in Acts (Acts 8:14-16 - The samaritans, 9:17 - Paul's conversion, 19:4-6 in Corinth), so it is a belief based on Scriptures. And they would also point to the experience of Jesus, who had the HS, but after baptism was 'baptized' in the HS.

This school defines charismatics as those who believe that spirit baptism happens at conversion but the gifts don't manifest themselves until later. John Wimbur and the Vineyard churches take this approach.

In my experience more and more Pentecostals are turning away from the believe that speaking in tongues is the only evidence of being baptized in the spirit.

 

[james1523]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. Baptism of the Spirit is baptism of the Spirit of Christ. Therefore if a person is truly baptized in the Spirit they will exhibit the behaviors and virtues of Christ.
The false kundalini spirit has come into the church, yoga, hinduism and other eastern practices, resulting in experiences which are claimed to be of the Spirit.
Forget about tongues or no tongues, look at the behavior - does the baptism of the Spirit make us drunk , chaotic, and in stupor and out of our minds, or does it make us peaceful, orderly, and sober minded and in right mind? Does it make us Christ-like?
Because humans are created in the image of God, the Holy Spirit never embarrasses or degrades a person by making them look stupid. No lover of Christ could say that the power of the Spirit is compared with getting high on drugs or drunk with alcohol. That is not experiencing the Spirit but experiencing a trance like state, and feels good because of chemicals released in the brain. Tribal cultures make themselves feel good this way as well, and using lots of music and drumbeats.

The so-called "slain in the Spirit" that Benny Hinn and others practice is false, it is just others pulling you down because they fall on you or they knock you over. That's not real power, that's just knocking people over with hand tricks and "hocus pocus".
Martial artists also use the same trick, there are youtube videos, knocking their students to the ground by using their "chi force". But try it on an unbeliever and it doesn't work, because it's just hypnosis.
The real power of God doesn't knock anyone over - it makes us stand firm and strong, able to take a few slaps on the cheek and turning the other one as well. Real power of God doesn't make us pass out and appear dead for an hour or so - it makes us more alive and quickened. What really happened at Pentecost in book of Acts? After they received the Spirit they spoke in tongues, appeared drunk and then passed out for an hour or two, slain in the Spirit. No, they went out and did stuff, preached, prophesied, glorified God. They were not deadened but enlivened. They did not appear drunk, but appeared sober enough to preach.

 

[B-A-C]

There is one school of thought that defines Pentecostals as those who believe the baptism of the spirit as a separate event from salvation.
This happens in a number of places in Acts (Acts 8:14-16 - The samaritans, 9:17 - Paul's conversion, 19:4-6 in Corinth), so it is a belief based on Scriptures. And they would also point to the experience of Jesus, who had the HS, but after baptism was 'baptized' in the HS.

I guess I have a couple of questions here.
Is the laying on of hands from someone who has already received it required?

Acts 8:17; Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Also does everyone receive the Holy Spirit this way, or was this simply because the Holy Spirit wasn't given to most believers before this time?
John 7:39; Heb 9:8; John 16:7;

It seems some believers weren't aware of this at the time.
Acts 19:2; He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

The other thing I notice here, in both the examples you gave.
Acts 19:3; And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:15; who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Matt 28:19;

Is being "baptized in the name of Jesus" the same as water baptism? (I would think John's baptism would be water baptism)
Or is this yet another baptism?
The baptism in water? The baptism of Jesus? The baptism of the Holy Spirit?
If so, is being baptized in the name of Jesus, and in water, a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit?

 

[james1523]

I guess I have a couple of questions here.
Is the laying on of hands from someone who has already received it required?

Acts 8:17; Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Also does everyone receive the Holy Spirit this way, or was this simply because the Holy Spirit wasn't given to most believers before this time?
John 7:39; Heb 9:8; John 16:7;

It seems some believers weren't aware of this at the time.
Acts 19:2; He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”

The other thing I notice here, in both the examples you gave.
Acts 19:3; And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:15; who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:16; For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Matt 28:19;

Is being "baptized in the name of Jesus" the same as water baptism? (I would think John's baptism would be water baptism)
Or is this yet another baptism?
The baptism in water? The baptism of Jesus? The baptism of the Holy Spirit?
If so, is being baptized in the name of Jesus, and in water, a requirement for receiving the Holy Spirit?

Anyone only baptized by John, was told to believe in Christ, and then rebaptized in water in the name of Christ, and then laid hands upon them to receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 19).
John's baptism was for repentance, and didn't involve belief in Christ. Christ's baptism in water is to identify a believer with Christ's death, burial, resurrection.

They laid on hands because they carried apostolic authority. Only apostles can impart the Spirit by laying on of hands. Everyone else must pray and ask for it.

 

[Hekuran]

They laid on hands because they carried apostolic authority. Only apostles can impart the Spirit by laying on of hands. Everyone else must pray and ask for it.

I agree with you on Baptism, but not at all sure there is an apostolic authority issue here. I can't see a fundamental difference between the way Ananias laid hands on Paul and the the way Paul laid hands on others.

Acts 9:17

Now there was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias... Ananias went and entered the house. He laid his hands on Saul and said, ‘Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on your way here, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.’ And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and his sight was restored. Then he got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

 

[B-A-C]

I agree with you on Baptism, but not at all sure there is an apostolic authority issue here. I can't see a fundamental difference between the way Ananias laid hands on Paul and the the way Paul laid hands on others.

This is an interesting thought. Are the only apostles the original 12? I guess it would be 13 in the case of Paul ( who replaced Judas )
Matthias was also chosen as an apostle. ( Acts 1:26; ) and Barnabas was also an apostle ( Acts 14:14; ) So could was apostleship initiated or transferred?
Apostleship seems to be a gift of Spirit also. ( 1 Cor 12:27-29; )

 

[B-A-C]

On the subject of apostles - I don't know of any verse that specifically says Stephen was an apostle, but we do know he did miracles. ( Acts 6:8; )

 

[Hekuran]

On the subject of apostles - I don't know of any verse that specifically says Stephen was an apostle, but we do know he did miracles. ( Acts 6:8; )

I can see this thread wobbling off topic.

Stephen was not an apostle. Look at the first verses of Chapter 6. He and six others were appointed by the apostles to oversee distribution of food to the poor among the disciples. Of course his work for the kingdom went well beyond his job description.

 

[farout]

On the subject of apostles - I don't know of any verse that specifically says Stephen was an apostle, but we do know he did miracles. ( Acts 6:8; )

B A C Can you give me a verse that says Stephen did miracles or was an Apostle? I know it is easy to get things a little confused, and I do at times, perhaps I am mistakes?