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Once Saved Always Saved and Conditional Security

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What do you believe?


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What do you believe and why? Give scripture references and explain it, also, if you can, please explain a few scriptures of your choice that seemingly contradict what you believe. I hope this would be fun and would help us grow in the Word of God. I do not believe in OSAS and I will also make posts in this thread. :smile:
 
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conditional security. hmm so like is love secure? cos that is unconditional so i read. by the way i voted for the top one.
 
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Heather-Anne said:
conditional security. hmm so like is love secure? cos that is unconditional so i read. by the way i voted for the top one.
Hi Heather-Anne
I believe His love in unconditional, God loves the whole world remember? But the not everyone in the world will go to heaven, most will go to hell. ABIDING in God's love through Jesus Christ is a different story. God loves you unconditionally!
 
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If you believe in him, you will have eternal life.

Unless I missunderstand the meaning of the word 'eternal', I believe in eternal security. This doesn't mean however that there is no such thing as "false conversions". I truly believe that if the rapture were to happen this Sunday, there would be more people left in the pews at Churches around the world than not. Many people are falsely converted, in my opinion.

I'm gonna have to cut this short.

God bless us all,
Nigh
 
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Nigh said:
If you believe in him, you will have eternal life.

Unless I missunderstand the meaning of the word 'eternal', I believe in eternal security. This doesn't mean however that there is no such thing as "false conversions". I truly believe that if the rapture were to happen this Sunday, there would be more people left in the pews at Churches around the world than not. Many people are falsely converted, in my opinion.

I'm gonna have to cut this short.

God bless us all,
Nigh
Thank you for your participation :smile:. Have you ever thought about what would happen to you if you have never chosen to serve Jesus Christ? Thats right you would have been heading for "eternal" punishment. See what I am trying to say? The word "eternal" in eternal life is not describing your salvation, it is describing the gift of salvation. Please think about it. If you justify your belief by the word "eternal" meaning forever and ever, then you would have to believe that you will never go to heaven in the end, since you were first destained to "eternal" punishment. I hope I explained well enough :grin:.....and did'nt confuse anyone. :smile:
 
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Nigh said:
If you believe in him, you will have eternal life.
even satan believes in jesus,but he has eternal death waiting for him...so i think it is just a little more than ,believing you have to live it.
 
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Actually satan does not believe Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior... that is where the difference is.. I think you know what he ment please do not try and pick it apart..
 
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Eternal life is a gift given to us by believing on Christ and accepting the gift for ourselves. When we give gifts to those we love, we do not attach strings to those gifts nor take them away from those we give them to. Only the recipient may exchange the gift. In salvation, we exchange our sinful life for the life of Christ to come into us, abide with us, live in and through us. We trust Him to be true to His word when He said in Hebrews 13:5c , "...for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, NOR FORSAKE THEE." The word "never" has a simple meaning "at no time". I think we can be assured that GOD is true to His word, for He cannot lie. If there was no security in our salvation, how would we ever be able to know when, where, or how we lost it? God speaks peace to our souls. He secures us in Him, it is nothing we do, can, or will ever do to obtain it. Too many people believe that we have to do or not do "things" to keep us saved, if only they realize that when Jesus said "It is finished." from the cross ...He meant just that. Man's doing and trying was done. A new and living way has been provided. In John 14:6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." When He died, we died with Him. I think that is why we are told in Romans 3:23, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Humanity falls short of the Holy God. I don't think that when we stand before Him in judgment, He will cover His mouth in surprise as to what we chose to do or not do. He knows all...is the "discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12f) I believe that as I have heard many say, we have a God-shaped void in our lives, but when we ask Him into our heart/life, He comes in, fills the void with Himself and locks our soul in/to Him for eternity. Romans 8:38-39, "For I am persuaded, the neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Colossians 3:4-5, "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
 
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Jesuslovesu said:
Actually satan does not believe Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior....
can you back this up with scripture...or is this your understanding......just like someone elses that hell was not eternal.
 
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Pray with me...

Lord I pray that my salvation, my gift that I recieved, the blood of your son Jesus is eternal. If it were not then I'm in big trouble. Yes, I have recieved your gift. Yes, I believe Jesus died on the cross to pay for my sins in full. Yes, I believe that he rose after 3 days and is now in heaven at your side. Yes, I know the Holy Spirit is in me, guiding me, and conforting me.
And yes I still sin everyday. I try and try not to, but it is this filthy flesh covering me. No, I don't go on murderous rampages everyday but I do hate. I know that your word says that if I hate someone, I have murdered them. I know that if I lust after a woman, I have commited sin in your eyes. And when these sins do creep up into my life, I don't always fall on my face and beg to be forgiven rite there, rite then. Lord I pray that at the very moment after commiting sin I am not hit with a bus and killed. For if my salvation is NOT eternal then it must be on condition of my behavior(my work), NOT the work done by your son Jesus. So my salvation would be dependent on me. Lord you know more than anyone that I am not nearly good and holy enough to do that. I must depend on your Son, Jesus. It is my only hope. Lord father in heaven, give me stregnth and wisdom in this matter. In your son Jesus' name. Amen.
 
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TDS52 said:
Eternal life is a gift given to us by believing on Christ and accepting the gift for ourselves. When we give gifts to those we love, we do not attach strings to those gifts nor take them away from those we give them to.
My mom gave me a precious stone, it was beautiful, but I lost it because of my carelessness. I did not hold on to my precious stone, then I frantically searched for it and then found it. After some time, I lost it again then I searched again and then I found it again. I kept loosing it again because of my careless behavior and I never found it again.

Heb 6:4 For [it is] impossible for the ones once having been enlightened and having tasted of [fig., experienced] the heavenly free gift and having became sharers of [the] Holy Spirit
Heb 6:5 and having tasted [fig., experienced] [the] good word of God and the powers of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, to be renewing [them] again to repentance, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God and having publicly disgraced [Him].

Renewing them AGAIN- meaning they have been renewed before, I don’t know how many times but those who have fallen away, fell away before for a number of times and were renewed again for a number of time. Just like I kept loosing my precious stone, at some point I never found it again and probably never will.
At some point God will
Rom 1:28 And according as they did not think good to have God in their knowledge, GOD GAVE THEM UP TO A REPROBATE MIND TO PRACTISE UNSEEMLY THINGS;They did not Hold on to their gift they became careless by sinning, probably thinking that their gift is safe - 1Ti 6:12 Strive earnestly in the good conflict of faith. LAY HOLD OF ETERNAL LIFE, to which thou hast been called, and hast confessed the good confession before many witnesses.
Heb 3:14 For we are become companions of the CHRIST IF INDEED WE HOLD THE BEGINNING OF THE ASSURANCE FIRM TO THE END;
TDS52 said:
Only the recipient may exchange the gift. In salvation, we exchange our sinful life for the life of Christ to come into us, abide with us, live in and through us. We trust Him to be true to His word when He said in Hebrews 13:5c , "...for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, NOR FORSAKE THEE." The word "never" has a simple meaning "at no time". I think we can be assured that GOD is true to His word, for He cannot lie.
You are right we exchange our sinful life for the life of Christ! How many once saved Christians out there are living the sinful life and still have their security of salvation in OSAS doctrine??
Joh 15:4 Abide in me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abide in the vine, thus neither can ye unless ye abide in me.
Guess what? Not only Jesus abides in us, but we are told to abide also in Him! Wanna know if we abide in him or not? By our fruits. Are fruits of the Spirit stealing, sexual immorality, murder, any disobedience to God? Lets see what are fruits of the Spirit and what are not!

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strifes, jealousies, angers, contentions, disputes, schools of opinion,
Gal 5:21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revels, and things like these; as to which I tell you beforehand, even as I also have said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit God's kingdom.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity,

Therefore we do not abide in Christ when we disobey God.

Heb 13:5: Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, “I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU,”
So why will Jesus never desert you nor will ever forsake you according Hebrews 13:5? No reason? No! If you make sure that your character is free form the love of money, being content with what you have. Did I take anything out of context?
Hebrews 13:5c is actually taken from the Old Testament reference of Deut. 31:6,8. God’s promise to Israel in Deut 31:6’8 is that he will never leave or forsake them. But then in verses 16-18 we read:

Deut. 13:16 The LORD said to Moses, “Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will arise and play the harlot with the strange gods of the land, into the midst of which they are going, and will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. Deut. 13:17 “Then My anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I WILL FORSAKE THEM AND HIDE MY FACE FROM THEM, and they will be consumed, and many evils and troubles will come upon them; so that they will say in that day, ‘Is it not because our God is not among us that these evils have come upon us?’ Deut. 13:18 “But I will surely hide My face in that day BECAUSE OF ALL THE EVIL WHICH THEY WILL DO, FOR THEY WILL TURN TO OTHER GODS.2 CHRON. 15:2 and he went out to meet Asa and said to him, “Listen to me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin: the LORD is with you when you are with Him. And if you seek Him, He will let you find Him; BUT IF YOU FORSAKE HIM, HE WILL FORSAKE YOU

2Tim 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with [Him]; if we deny [or, disown] [Him], that One will also deny us.
2Tim 2:13 If we are unfaithful, that One remains faithful; He is not able to deny Himself.
If we deny Jesus he will deny us also, then the bible goes on to say that if we are unfaithful, Jesus remains faithful. Faithful to what, one might ask. It cannot mean that if we are unfaithful to Jesus he will remain faithful to us, because one, it doesn’t say exactly that and two, that would totally contradict the previous verse. Wouldn’t you agree? So we are left with interpreting these two passages and not have them contradict eachother. Do you remember when Jesus himself said in Mat 10:33? "But whoever denies [or, disowns] Me before the people, _I_ also will deny him before My Father, the [One] in the heavens. You see although Christ remains faithful to His promises. In 2 Tim 2:13, the statement refers to His faithfulness in carrying out the warning that he himself give in mat 10:33, that he will disown or deny us in the presence of the Father “if we willfully and knowledgeably disown/deny him. HE cannot deny what He Himself said in Mat 10:33.

Thank you for reading. :smile:
 
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imready4thelord said:
even satan believes in jesus,but he has eternal death waiting for him...so i think it is just a little more than ,believing you have to live it.

Do you have scripture that says satan believes in Christ? Calls him Lord and Savior ? Once again don't twist words


Jam 2:19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder.


I understand that works are evident when there is faith.. (meaning I am a child of Christ thru faith I will submit to Him and fruit will show ...works...)

But works without faith is what? Dead! Just being a "good" person will not get you to heaven (despite popular belief)
 
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no word twisting here

Luk 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
now if you go to google and type in "Christ" this is the definition it gives:
Christ (krīst)
n.
The Messiah, as foretold by the prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. Often used with the.
Christianity. Jesus.
A title for Jesus meaning “Messiah” or “anointed one.”

Now the definition of “Messiah”
Mes·si·ah (mĭ-sī'ə)
n.
also Mes·si·as (mĭ-sī'əs) The anticipated savior of the Jews.
also Messias Christianity. Jesus.
messiah One who is anticipated as, regarded as, or professes to be a savior or liberator
 
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Ok what I am saying is they dont believe in Him in faith terms.... I have never said they dont know Who Chist is but they do not have faith in Him they do not believe in Him...

Please do not talk to me as though I do not know who the Messiah is or what the word means..

Think of it this way if they believed in Him as I am using the word belive whould they not then follow Christ?

Please tell me what you are trying to say? would it be better if I would have said "have faith"? Would that have stopped this ?
 
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Jesuslovesu said:
Actually satan does not believe Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior... that is where the difference is.. I think you know what he ment please do not try and pick it apart..
imready4thelord said:
can you back this up with scripture...or is this your understanding......just like someone elses that hell was not eternal.
Hi Guys, lets be nice here...I wanna learn and I am sure you do too andso does everyone else. :smile: Lets see what I can say about all this....
Lets see...James 2:17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
2:18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”
2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

There is a difference between believing that Jesus is God and believing that Jesus is not only God but your God.
The demons believe everything concerning God and Jesus to be true, but Jesus is not their God.
Some Christians just have "faith" or just "believe" in Jesus without any action to prove it. Some Christians have faith and can show it by their works(which is good since God will judge everyone according to their works, the bible never says faith alone!)
.Rom 2:6 who 'will render to each [person] according to his works,' [Psalm 62:12; Prov 24:12]
Rom 2:7 to the [ones] on the one hand [who] by perseverance of good work seek glory and honor and incorruptibility [or, immortality], eternal life;

I am saved through faith in Jesus plus nothing, if I had works and no faith in Jesus, then I am not saved. True faith in Jesus produces good works and righteousness.

Sadly some Christian will find out the answer to Jam 2:14 when its too late, which says "What [is] the advantage, my brothers [and sisters], if someone is saying he has faith but is not having works? Such faith is not able to save him, is it?"
Hope this helps.
 
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hey no harm intended here
and i apologize for any misunderstanding on my behalf...
you mean that they don't believe in him in the since of being saved
Actually satan does not believe Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior....
i missed his the first time i read it
 
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thats ok really and I also am sorry if I seemed well... not so friendly..


yes exactly that is what I ment... about believe ..


I also am not going to vote yet... because I really dont understand the two main options. I dont know if it is the wording ( I am not very good with "doctrine" names) so I would perfer to learn the difference between the two before I vote...
 
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"Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, AS I HAVE SWORN IN MY WRATH, IF THEY SHALL ENTER INTO MY REST: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." Hebrews 4:1-3(KJV)

"For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. " Hebrews 4:10-11(KJV)

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened [factually well-informed, tolerant of alternative opinions, and guided by rational thought], and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers [one taking a share, or having a share in] of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6(KJV). I believe God has the keeping power. I'm sure you would agree that Christ was crucified only once, so people who come back again and again because they "feel" they have lost their salvation, do not believe Christ's death was a sufficient sacrifice for their sin nor His blood good enough to wash away their sin. When Jesus was crucified, He was hung between heaven and earth, He was stripped of His clothes and exposed to the elements and public view (made a public example or put to open shame). This was for all mankind, yet He hung with outstretched arms, as if trying to embrace the world and say to each individual at the same time..."I'm doing this for YOU." If we do not believe this, each time we come back to Him we would be asking Jesus to die again for us, to hang again on that cross in open shame...for our sin.

Please do not think that I believe in sinless perfection for I am still in this sinful flesh, as is everyone who is living today. There are many who think Jesus died for just certain sins, but the Bible tells us that He died for all sin and "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." 1 John 1:7d(KJV). I think we can all read the book of first John and find our security in Christ and how to deal with sin that we allow and make provision for in our lives.

May I also note that the verses in Galatians 5, prove how the flesh works against the Spirit, and as long as we are in this fleshly body, we will all find incidences of many of those works of the flesh in our own lives. The fruit [singular, in verses 22-23] of the Spirit is nine-fold in its abundance...love, joy and peace from the Spirit living in us; long suffering, gentleness, goodness flowing from us to our fellowman; and faith, meekness, and temperance in our own hearts/life.

The portion of Scripture in Romans 1:28 says, "And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,[nor like to acknowledge Him as God], God gave them over to a reprobate [depraved, cast off by God, unapproved, rejected, worthless, cast away]mind to do those things which are not convenient [favorable, fit]." In verses 16-32, we can see God's anger with sin and godless lifestyles. He makes His presence known unto these people, yet they remain in their perversions...religious, intellectual and moral. Because of the things they did and had/took pleasure in, God gave them "up"[in or to an activity] Note this phrase was used in verses 24 and 26, then in verse 28 the word is changed to "over" [above and beyond, going beyond in excess, too much, past, finished in repetition] God does and will judge all sin. In this flesh, we can never rise above sin until we are raptured or called home by way of the grave.

As to our "holding on" to anything or keeping ourselves saved, we are helpless. God does the saving and the holding. We are more secure that way. His hand is too big for us to fall out of. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish [die or waste away]neither shall any man pluck [pull or pick off, strip from, reject in an examination]them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." John 10:27-30(KJV)
 
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TDS52 said:
If there was no security in our salvation, how would we ever be able to know when, where, or how we lost it?
I think that you embrace the idea of OSAS because you believe any other teaching doesn't provide assurance of salvation. This is absolutely not the case! However, where OSAS gives a false sense of assurance to those practicing sin, the scriptures teach assurance for those who are abiding in Christ. Just to let you know, my security lies in Christ not in the idea of OSAS. Believe it or not, I have assurance of my salvation but only according to the scriptures!



TDS52 said:
God speaks peace to our souls. He secures us in Him, it is nothing we do, can, or will ever do to obtain it. Too many people believe that we have to do or not do "things" to keep us saved, if only they realize that when Jesus said "It is finished." from the cross ...He meant just that.
Let me put it this way
We as Christians, are never told by God to struggle to get into Christ. We are not told to get there, because we are already there. However, we are told to REMAIN where God has placed us. So if remaining is a “thing” for you, then a “thing” it is, because that’s what the bible says.
What is Finished? I know he meant what he said, but please explain to me what was he talking about. Because you don’t seem to make sense, I mean concerning the idea of OSAS.


TDS52 said:
Romans 8:38-39[/B], "For I am persuaded, the neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
The first thing that needs to be stressed is there is a definite DIFFERENCE between the "LOVE" of God as mentioned in Rom. 8:38,39 and the "LIFE" of God, according to Scripture! This is easily proven by noting that UNSAVED people are LOVED by God, even though they are devoid of His LIFE! A clear case in point is the rich, young ruler who was certainly UNSAVED, yet LOVED by Jesus (Mk. 10:21)! It must be further noted that this same unsaved man, like all unsaved people, are "separated from the LIFE of God," (Eph. 4:18) but, again, not separated from His LOVE! Since one only has salvation when he has the LIFE of God, Rom. 8:38,39 does NOT assure an unconditional salvation on the basis of God's infinite love!

"Your Iniquities Have SEPARATED You From Your God"
Finally, those who read the word "sin" into the list cited by Paul in Rom. 8:38,39 contradict the clear and the plain truth for Isa. 59:2 states, "But your iniquities have SEPARATED you from your God"!

“Keep yourselves in the love of God!” Jude 21. The passage from Romans 8 deals with the security of the believer who remains “in” Christ, and no other. It speaks of external forces that attack the believer, but some may see these afflictions as giving the impression that God is punishing them, or that they have fallen out of the grace of God. Paul is saying that the love of Christ is with the believer regardless of the great persecution that they may suffer. Nothing is said about an impossibility of being separated from Christ because of rebellion and sin! It is not speaking of loss of salvation, but the separation from Christ’s love! Sin is not an external force, it is a personal choice. Nothing in this verse promises the apostate any security!

TDS52 said:
Colossians 3:4-5, "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."
Are you dead to sin? What does dead to sin mean according to the bible? Still sinning and claming that you are blameless before God anyways since you were “once saved”? Actually not, did you notice that those who were dead to this world in Colossians 3:4-5 are called Holy and Faithful ones (Colossians 1:2). What does it mean to be holy? What does it mean to be Faithful to Jesus? By serving another God, like money, or Satan? No, anyone with a half a brain knows that.
Those who are hid with Christ, , are Col 1:23 since indeed you* are CONTINUING IN THE FAITH, having been firmly established and steadfast, and are not being shifted away from the hope [or, confident expectation] of the Gospel which you* heard, the one having been preached in all the creation under heaven, of which _I_, Paul, became a servant.
Do you want to know what to put to death, what has to die?Col 3:5 Therefore, put to death your* members, the ones on the earth: sexual sin, impurity [or, immorality], lustful passion, evil desire, and the covetous desire [or, greed], which is idolatry,
Col 3:6 because of which [things] the WRATH OF GOD IS COMING UPON THE SONS [AND DAUGHTERS] OF DISOBEDIENCE,

The wrath of God-
lets look at the wrath of God and what it says about the non Christians and the disobedient Christians
Joh 3:36 "The one believing [or, trusting] in the Son has eternal life, but the one refusing to believe the Son will not see {the} life, _but_ the wrath of God ABIDES on him." lets see, every human being are born sinners, therefore we were all born with the wrath of God upon us, and if we do not accept Jesus we will not have everlasting life, we will have eternal punishment.
Therefore the wrath of God = eternal punishment.
So when a Christian gets saved, the wrath of God is removed from them and if they are not saved then the wrath of God REMAINS (abides) on them. Just like John 3:36 says.

Col 3:6 and Eph 5:6 Let no one be deceiving [or, misleading] you* with empty [fig., foolish] words, for because of these [things] the wrath of God is COMING UPON the sons [and daughters] of disobedience. These letters were written to Christians only, not only that, since every Christians had once had the wrath of God removed form them, then the wrath of God will need to COME UPON then if they are being disobedient to God! Notice the bible didn't use "abide or remain" but used "comes upon" in these two verses of scriptures(Col 3:6 and Eph 5:6)? The wrath of God cannot come upon a non christian because it is already there. So let me explain it again, any Christian who live in disobedience to the Lord, they are in danger of Hell fire, or the wrath of God!!! Please prove me wrong about the way I Just interpreted these 3 scriptures. I love always see where I go wrong.:smile:
 
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