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omnipotence vs predestination

Loyal
One of the more controversial passages in the Bible...

Rom 9:10; And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17; For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18; So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19; You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20; On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21; Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22; What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad" In this particular case it seems God already either knew what was going to happen,
or caused certain things to happen.

"What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there?" - Yet this is exactly what some people are teaching.

"Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." - This is a quote of Malachi 1:3; (My Bible capitalizes OT quotes).

Hated... that's a strong word, What is the actual word here?

miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

Well that's the Greek. How about the Hebrew word in Malachi?

שָׂנֵא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

To detest... to utterly hate. Why would God who "is love" say this?

This whole omnipotence/predestination thing seems to be confusing to many people. Just because God "knows" what is going to happen...
Doesn't mean that He is the one "making it happen".

God may know who who is.. and who isn't going to be saved. He may even know this before he created humankind.
But He created us anyway... all of us... even those who aren't going to be saved.

The thing is... He gives everyone a chance. Everyone has to make a choice. He doesn't make the choice for you.
You have to make it. You alone... no one else can make it for you. He may "draw you"... He may even "call you".
He knocks on your door. But in the end it's your choice to open the door or not. In the end many are called... but FEW are chosen.

People tend to add or take away words that aren't actually in the Bible... for example...

Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

People turn these two sentences around a say... He predestined those who He foreknew... But that ISN'T what this verse says.

It says He foreknew.... He didn't make the decision for them... He just knew what decision they were going to make.
Then secondly... it says He predestined.... predestined what? For them to make the decision? NO, that isn't what it says here.
It says they were predestined to be conformed into "the image of His Son". (Jesus).

He doesn't make the decision for them... but once they make the decision... it's certain that you will eventually become like Jesus (conformed to His image).
 
Loyal
2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So then... if it's God's will that none should perish, and it's God's will that all men be saved.... why isn't everyone saved?
Because He allows us to choose. The Bible make it clear not everyone will be saved.

Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

2 Thes 2:10; and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

Some people will not believe, some people will refuse to accept the truth. God doesn't make this choice for them, it is their choice.

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


"Many" people will decide to take the road to destruction. There are "few" who find the narrow road to eternal life.

God doesn't send anyone to hell. He gives everyone way out, no one has to go to hell.
But people choose to go there on their own accord. Most often because they don't believe hell exists, or God exists, but also they don't believe
the Son God died for their sins and rose again.
 
Loyal
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17; "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


For God... "so loved the world". God loves us. He loves the world. He gave us Jesus. Without Jesus none of us would have a chance.
None of us would have choice. Jesus came that the world "might" be saved. It doesn't say that everyone will be saved.

"whosoever believes in Him". Anyone can make the choice to believe and follow Him.


Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9; Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

God loves us so much, His (only) Son died for us. How amazing is that!! Really.
Those who accept Jesus will be saved from the wrath of God.

Rom 6:23; For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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Good posts BAC. I would link omniscience with predestination. Not omnipotence.

I hear your argument. It is better then a full Calvinistic view, but it is still false for me.

The only way I can accept God being truly impartial Acts 10:34 (Which He is) and good Psalm 136:1 (Which He is) on the topic of inevitable fore-knowledge from His omniscience, is if He limits His omniscience.

If it can be proven that knowing something is evil, He does not know it. Hence I don't believe He foreknows any persons decisions from birth. During the course of their life, He can make accurate predictions. As I believe Jesus did with Judas at one point after He was chosen.

We easily accept that He limits His omnipotence to allow for true free will to exist, why not also omniscience? A storm destroys the houses of the good and bad. The ebola virus does not care what is in your heart. The wicked are able to hurt wicked, children and saints. God could intervene at any time. He is omnipotent / all powerful. He doesn't. Therefore He limits His omnipotence to uphold true free will. True free will is a gift, it is good.

Just a thought on Rom 9. It reads for me as though Paul is saying what God can do. Making the point that God is God, He can do whatever He wants. This does not mean God does do whatever He wants. The rest of scripture tells us what God does decide to do. He does what pleases Him Psalm 135:6, being good, impartial and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, pleases Him. This is why David says ''give thanks because God is good'' Psalm 136:1. As He could, as Rom 9 suggests, be bad.
 
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Some people will not believe, some people will refuse to accept the truth. God doesn't make this choice for them, it is their choice.
How is it their choice if God is the creator. A creator with full omniscience of their ''choices''?

If God was not the Creator, your argument holds water.
 
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God Is The Creator and does have all -knowledge of all choices being made by everyone.
 
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God Is The Creator and does have all -knowledge of all choices being made by everyone.
God does what pleases Him Psalm 135:6. If He can limit His omnipotence and allow for true free will in that He permits evil to take place (something He utterly hates), He can limit His omniscience to allow for true free will in our decisions.

It is just truly beyond me how so many simply cannot grasp the following:

Good (A) = true free will (B) = limited omniscience (C).

A. God is good Psalm 136:1.
B. True free will is good. Anything less then true free will is bad. God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.
C. Since God is the Creator of all, He has to limit His omniscience.

There are many scriptures that point to God being 'surprised'. Having expectations.

Predestination is not the issue. Fore-knowledge is. Whether it comes after or before predestination is irrelevant. If knowing something can be proven to be evil, a God who tells us He is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, does not know it. Unless He is a liar?

Fore-knowledge of our decisions to accept or reject Jesus, when God is the Creator, is partiality. Partiality is wicked. A great wickedness. Fact.

So in essence if anyone opposes limited omniscience they are in essence espousing God is wicked and a liar. 1 + 1 = 2.

There are many scriptures that define God, we cannot define Him and arrive at a full understanding of who He is......off of....one scripture. It is just insanity and an epic fail of our 'one' Christian job.
 
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@KingJ -- Scriptures about God Not being surprised by Anything. Look at Isaiah 41:22-23 //42:8-9 // 45:21 God is in control of the princes -- bringing them to nothing. Makes the judges of the earth useless. // I am the Lord and that is my name, and My glory I will not give to another, Not my praise to cared images -- ....the new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them" God has always known everything from the beginning. A just God and a Savior. There is none besides Me. " And God is Sovereign.

When God was here in the flesh -- Jesus Christ -- He gave up some of His attributes. His need for sleep and food. And Jesus wept -- He showed emotion -- but He was Not surprised when Lazarus came back from the dead. Or when the little girl came back to life.

He was Sad is saddened by our sinfulness, but Not surprised. The cross of Christ was Planned from the beginning -- God knew Adam and Eve would sin in Spite of His directions -- so He planned for their / our redemption being possible.
Hebrews 1:1-3
 
Member
One of the more controversial passages in the Bible...

Rom 9:10; And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
Rom 9:12; it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
Rom 9:14; What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
Rom 9:15; For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
Rom 9:16; So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Rom 9:17; For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
Rom 9:18; So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19; You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20; On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21; Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22; What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

"for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad" In this particular case it seems God already either knew what was going to happen,
or caused certain things to happen.

"What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there?" - Yet this is exactly what some people are teaching.

"Rom 9:13; Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." - This is a quote of Malachi 1:3; (My Bible capitalizes OT quotes).

Hated... that's a strong word, What is the actual word here?

miseō
mis-eh'-o
From a primary word μῖσος misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less: - hate (-ful).

Well that's the Greek. How about the Hebrew word in Malachi?

שָׂנֵא
śânê'
saw-nay'
A primitive root; to hate (personally): - enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful, -r), odious, X utterly.

To detest... to utterly hate. Why would God who "is love" say this?

This whole omnipotence/predestination thing seems to be confusing to many people. Just because God "knows" what is going to happen...
Doesn't mean that He is the one "making it happen".

God may know who who is.. and who isn't going to be saved. He may even know this before he created humankind.
But He created us anyway... all of us... even those who aren't going to be saved.

The thing is... He gives everyone a chance. Everyone has to make a choice. He doesn't make the choice for you.
You have to make it. You alone... no one else can make it for you. He may "draw you"... He may even "call you".
He knocks on your door. But in the end it's your choice to open the door or not. In the end many are called... but FEW are chosen.

People tend to add or take away words that aren't actually in the Bible... for example...

Rom 8:29; For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

People turn these two sentences around a say... He predestined those who He foreknew... But that ISN'T what this verse says.

It says He foreknew.... He didn't make the decision for them... He just knew what decision they were going to make.
Then secondly... it says He predestined.... predestined what? For them to make the decision? NO, that isn't what it says here.
It says they were predestined to be conformed into "the image of His Son". (Jesus).

He doesn't make the decision for them... but once they make the decision... it's certain that you will eventually become like Jesus (conformed to His image).
I would submit that this passage isn't controversial in it's context. I would also submit that it's not about people being saved, but rather it is about God's choosing of Israel.
 
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And I don't see how you get Israel out of this passage.
When Paul opens the letter he addresses the church in general. Then in chapter 2 verse 17 he turns his attention to the Jewish believers in the church.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)

He continues this discourse through to chapter 11 verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
(Rom. 11:13-14 KJV)


Through this section he makes mentions of things that pertain to the Jews. For instance he says,

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (Rom. 4:1 KJV)

Abraham was the father of the Jews according to the flesh. Also if we look at how Romans 9 begins we find this..

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:1-5 KJV)


Here he speaks of his brethren according to the flesh. then he says, "who are Israelites". So he tells us right up front who he's talking about. Notice too the things that pertain to the Israelites. It's the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law , the service of God, and the promises. He also says that it was concerning them that Christ came. The key here is the promises. That is what he goes on to explain. To break this down is lengthy. So, rather than post a several long posts I'll link to an article I wrote on Romans 9.
 
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@KingJ -- Scriptures about God Not being surprised by Anything. Look at Isaiah 41:22-23 //42:8-9 // 45:21 God is in control of the princes -- bringing them to nothing. Makes the judges of the earth useless. // I am the Lord and that is my name, and My glory I will not give to another, Not my praise to cared images -- ....the new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them" God has always known everything from the beginning. A just God and a Savior. There is none besides Me. " And God is Sovereign.

When God was here in the flesh -- Jesus Christ -- He gave up some of His attributes. His need for sleep and food. And Jesus wept -- He showed emotion -- but He was Not surprised when Lazarus came back from the dead. Or when the little girl came back to life.

He was Sad is saddened by our sinfulness, but Not surprised. The cross of Christ was Planned from the beginning -- God knew Adam and Eve would sin in Spite of His directions -- so He planned for their / our redemption being possible.
Hebrews 1:1-3
So, you would say God promoted the devil to the covering cherub whilst having full knowledge that this extra power would go to his head and corrupt Him to the point that He choose eternity in hell? That would be terribly wicked of God.

When Jesus chose the twelve disciples he named them His ''apostles'' Luke 6:13. An apostle is defined as ''an important early Christian teacher / a vigorous and pioneering advocate or supporter of a particular policy, idea, or cause''. We see that all but Judas were amazing missionaries. Completely fulfilling the definition of the word ''apostle''. As such, you would say Jesus was deceitful. A Liar. He foreknew Judas would be the complete opposite of an apostle and yet still selected him?

I could go on all day.
 
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@KingJ -- Scriptures about God Not being surprised by Anything. Look at Isaiah 41:22-23 //42:8-9 // 45:21 God is in control of the princes -- bringing them to nothing. Makes the judges of the earth useless. // I am the Lord and that is my name, and My glory I will not give to another, Not my praise to cared images -- ....the new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them" God has always known everything from the beginning. A just God and a Savior. There is none besides Me. " And God is Sovereign.
God does not need fore-knowledge / to encroach on their free will to ''control'' matters.

Consider Pharaoh. God wanted the Hebrews to go free and make it to the promised land. Pharaoh opposed God's will. So, God '''controls'' the matter with ten plagues that increase in severity and ends up having to get really ''hands on'' by drowning him in the red sea He parted for His people.

The evidence points to God being surprised on eleven occasions.

When God was here in the flesh -- Jesus Christ -- He gave up some of His attributes. His need for sleep and food. And Jesus wept -- He showed emotion -- but He was Not surprised when Lazarus came back from the dead. Or when the little girl came back to life.
Unrelated. Knowledge of the power of God is not an impeachment on anyone's free will. I will just add that Lazarus was asked if he would mind taking part in this event. He was not forced. Lazarus was not cursing God when he came back to life.

He was Sad is saddened by our sinfulness, but Not surprised. The cross of Christ was Planned from the beginning -- God knew Adam and Eve would sin in Spite of His directions -- so He planned for their / our redemption being possible. Hebrews 1:1-3
I would not say our fall is something evil for Him to know. Intelligence + free will + weak flesh = inevitable fall. The issue is more with our acceptance of Jesus / repentance from sin. Being destined for hell. We know that God wills that all be saved 1 Tim 2:4 and died for all on the cross John 3:16.

In the case of the angels. He too would have known that the odds of many falling be inevitable. But to know exactly who they are, well that is truly a SEPARATE matter.

Since God is 1. The Creator and has 2. Made an eternal hell for the wicked, He ''HAS'' to limit His omniscience to uphold being good Psalm 136:1, righteous Psalm 145:17, holy, light with no darkness 1 John 1:5.


Process theology rejects unlimited omnipotence on a philosophical basis, arguing that omnipotence as classically understood would be less than perfect, and is therefore incompatible with the idea of a perfect deity. The idea is grounded in Plato's oft-overlooked statement that "being is power."

From this premise, Charles Hartshorne argues further that:

Power is influence, and perfect power is perfect influence ... power must be exercised upon something, at least if by power we mean influence, control; but the something controlled cannot be absolutely inert, since the merely passive, that which has no active tendency of its own, is nothing; yet if the something acted upon is itself partly active, then there must be some resistance, however slight, to the "absolute" power, and how can power which is resisted be absolute.
 
Loyal
When Paul opens the letter he addresses the church in general. Then in chapter 2 verse 17 he turns his attention to the Jewish believers in the church.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)

He continues this discourse through to chapter 11 verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
(Rom. 11:13-14 KJV)


Through this section he makes mentions of things that pertain to the Jews. For instance he says,

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (Rom. 4:1 KJV)

Abraham was the father of the Jews according to the flesh. Also if we look at how Romans 9 begins we find this..

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:1
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;1
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:1-5 KJV)


Here he speaks of his brethren according to the flesh. then he says, "who are Israelites". So he tells us right up front who he's talking about. Notice too the things that pertain to the Israelites. It's the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law , the service of God, and the promises. He also says that it was concerning them that Christ came. The key here is the promises. That is what he goes on to explain. To break this down is lengthy. So, rather than post a several long posts I'll link to an article I wrote on Romans 9.

one way to determine if it was for Isreal is was it written in greek or hebrew?

another way is Paul was the apostle to the gentiles, his mission was for the gentiles,

things to consider
 
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one way to determine if it was for Isreal is was it written in greek or hebrew?

another way is Paul was the apostle to the gentiles, his mission was for the gentiles,

things to consider
The context of the book tells us clearly who he was talking about. He said, 'my brethren according to the flesh, who are Israelites'. He was talking about the Israelites.
 
Loyal
'my brethren according to the flesh, who are Israelites

I would say that his brothers are Christians I am sure some of the Israelite were Christians as anyone whom came to Christ at this time were Christians making them his brother.
 
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God does not need fore-knowledge / to encroach on their free will to ''control'' matters.

Consider Pharaoh. God wanted the Hebrews to go free and make it to the promised land. Pharaoh opposed God's will. So, God '''controls'' the matter with ten plagues that increase in severity and ends up having to get really ''hands on'' by drowning him in the red sea He parted for His people.

The evidence points to God being surprised on eleven occasions.

Unrelated. Knowledge of the power of God is not an impeachment on anyone's free will. I will just add that Lazarus was asked if he would mind taking part in this event. He was not forced. Lazarus was not cursing God when he came back to life.



I would not say our fall is something evil for Him to know. Intelligence + free will + weak flesh = inevitable fall. The issue is more with our acceptance of Jesus / repentance from sin. Being destined for hell. We know that God wills that all be saved 1 Tim 2:4 and died for all on the cross John 3:16.

In the case of the angels. He too would have known that the odds of many falling be inevitable. But to know exactly who they are, well that is truly a SEPARATE matter.

Since God is 1. The Creator and has 2. Made an eternal hell for the wicked, He ''HAS'' to limit His omniscience to uphold being good Psalm 136:1, righteous Psalm 145:17, holy, light with no darkness 1 John 1:5.


Process theology rejects unlimited omnipotence on a philosophical basis, arguing that omnipotence as classically understood would be less than perfect, and is therefore incompatible with the idea of a perfect deity. The idea is grounded in Plato's oft-overlooked statement that "being is power."

From this premise, Charles Hartshorne argues further that:

Power is influence, and perfect power is perfect influence ... power must be exercised upon something, at least if by power we mean influence, control; but the something controlled cannot be absolutely inert, since the merely passive, that which has no active tendency of its own, is nothing; yet if the something acted upon is itself partly active, then there must be some resistance, however slight, to the "absolute" power, and how can power which is resisted be absolute.

Hi KingJ -- and Now you're suggesting that you know what God does or doesn't need -- foreknowledge , etc.

As for Pharaoh -- he was refusing the let the Children of Israel be freed from 400 years of bondage. God chose to use Moses to be their leader and Moses felt very inadequate so He allowed Aaron to be his helper.

God was showing Pharaoh that He was more powerful than any of his powerful people. And, in turn, we are reading About God showing His power in every situation. God Does both allow and cause various things in our own lives and in history. God alone knows the big picture because it's His Big Picture. And, born-again believer have their part In that big picture.

Someone Is control and it IS GOD.

In the crossing of the Red Sea -- the people needed to be willing to place their faith in the fact that they Could walk across dry land that God provided for them. God provided a way of escape for them. They had to be willing to follow Him. And , yes, God allowed the waters to Back and drown the armies that would have taken them Back to captivity.

There are two Lazarus's -- the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19 - end of chapter. The other one is in John 11 -- Lazarus of Bethany -- I don't know what event You're talking about -- KingJ -- but Scripture says that He heard that his dear friend had died , but He waiting to go see Mary and Martha until 4 days had gone by. Lazarus was not giving his consent for his death any more than you or I would give consent to God for our deaths. Jesus Christ was allowing Lazarus's death to take place -- in fact -- the people wondered Why He didn't come sooner, because they knew that Jesus could have cured him,. But Jesus Christ chose this death -- of their loved one -- to happen to that He could show that bodily resurrection Was possible. vs 43 & 44 -- Jesus Christ called out "Lazarus , come forth". and he who had died came out bound hand and foot with grave clothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Loose him, and let him go."

That episode caused many Jews who came to Mary and witnessed that Did believe in Him. But the Pharisees were concerned about all of that. That the people might actually decide to Follow this Man.

Actually Lazarus was not recorded as saying Anything.

So -- you are Also saying that God simply was 'playing the odds' -- all that God Really knew was that which was inevitable. The same way with the fall / rebellion of the angels -- but that He didn't know Which or Who of the angels would rebel. As if That takes away from God's omniscience -- having all knowledge. So , since God's Word doesn't tell us the names of all the fallen angels that He doesn't really know Everything. then again -- you ended that sentence with "but That is a Separate matter.

I'm sure glad that God knows a whole lot more than you give Him credit for. Which is saying that if it had been up to You -- You would have named all of the fallen, rebellious angels -- You would Then have been showing Your complete knowledge of all things. WOW. Is that what you're suggesting?

Your info regarding "Process Theology" -- okay -- whatever.

And what Wiki says .... okay -- whatever.
 
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I would say that his brothers are Christians I am sure some of the Israelite were Christians as anyone whom came to Christ at this time were Christians making them his brother.
But he tells us who they are, 'who are Israelites'.
 

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