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Member
Hello,
I am a Christian and I love the Lord with all my heart. I may not be a biblical scholar but I'm learning more every day. I have a problem that I'm hoping you could help me with. I have encountered something recently that just doesn't feel right but wanted some advice or input from some forum viewers? Without trying to "poison" the topic or conversation, I'll give you a VERY brief background. My daughter is at school at UNC - Chapel Hill and was on track for a certain career path and has always been self driven. She was Valedictorian of her high school class and has a 4 yr scholarship at the university. She recently came home with a complete change of mind about her future and some fundamental questions about careers / paths / intentions of her schooling and job outlook post college. The majority of this comes from a book she read by Shane Claiborne called the Irresistible Revolution.

Please understand that I love my daughter and I support her no matter what she does with her life as she is a christian and loves our LORD. Something just feels wrong about this. The book, the author, and the ideas I'm hearing about. Without going into details, can anyone give me some input / advice as to what they might know? I've looked online and I see some radicalism but I see a lot of biblical references to his writings. I am frustrated about this sense of distrust I have towards this book, but I cannot ignore this creepy feeling I have of a possible cultish thing going on?

Love ya'll for listening and I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Scott
 
Loyal
I have never heard of him before until you mentioned him. I looked him up on the net, and his radicalness seems only as radical as Mother Teresa. That being said, judge a man by his works, and so far, he has been doing things more Christians should be doing. I have no doubt it will be a much harder life to follow his example, and you being her father, you want the best for her, but remember that her serving the Lord however the Lord calls her is more important than a "safer" life.
 
Member
Scott,
Have you read Shane Claiborne's book "The Irresistible Revolution: Living as an Ordinary Radical"?

I just read a review of it on The Episcopal Church in Central Pennsylvania's website and it was highly praised.

Quoting from their review
"In many ways, Claiborne's personal life journey and the revitalization of Christianity he preaches is profoundly Franciscan. Both involve a joyful embrace of voluntary simplicity, an intense commitment to nonviolence, a ministry to the needy which involves living with them and sharing their joys and sorrows rather than simply referring them to some relief agency, a courageous willingness to overturn the tables of today's moneychangers, and a devotion to Christ that renews body and spirit when the going gets rough, as it often does. It's this Franciscan radicalism which makes The Irresistible Revolution alarming to some but a breath of fresh air—of Ruach—to many others,"
I would suggest you read it for yourself. It is available online at Barnes and Noble for $13.62 paperback and only $6.99 for the Ebook.

I have not heard of Shane Claiborne before today and I have not read his book and I am not Episcopalian and do not know what traditions or doctrines they hold, but i do know that caring for the poor and downtrodden is a big deal to Jesus.
 
Member
I think she is realizing there are two ways of living - one in which you are a successful person in the workplace and God is part of your life. Then there is living and serving God with every moment, with your career. It is the kind of thing that make powerful lawyers leave their firms to join a charity group for less pay. A doctor leaving his position to serve in missions. A businessman to become a poor small town preacher.

This idea might be scary for a parent who sees to it that their child get every opportunity and success. But success is not always measured by the standard of the world.

Also - it is perfectly natural for young people to change their minds in college.
 
Member
Matthew 25 (ESV)

"The Final Judgment
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' 40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' 45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"
 
Moderator
Staff Member
@scott26038
I would like to set your mind at ease, but I cannot.
Felt moved to drop this line to you. I'll post more on this as time allows.
God bless and my prayers are with you and yours.
YBIC
C4E
<><
 
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Moderator
Staff Member
Hello,
My daughter is at school at UNC - Chapel Hill and was on track for a certain career path and has always been self driven. She was Valedictorian of her high school class and has a 4 yr scholarship at the university. She recently came home with a complete change of mind about her future and some fundamental questions about careers / paths / intentions of her schooling and job outlook post college. The majority of this comes from a book she read by Shane Claiborne called the Irresistible Revolution.
Greetings @scott26038

As parents I think we often dream of the successful career paths that our children will make.
I know that I do

But more and more in this decaying world where worldly success is such a priority....Jesus and simple Christian living is pushed into the background and becomes second place to worldly success.

I only know a little of this author.....but if your daughter is considering a more simple Jesus centered, giving life after reading this book.....then Praise the Lord!

Pray with her, asking the Lord to continually to give clear direction
He will show her His will for her life if she seeks Him
His word says so

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:5-6

 
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Moderator
Staff Member
Hello,
I am a Christian and I love the Lord with all my heart. I may not be a biblical scholar but I'm learning more every day. I have a problem that I'm hoping you could help me with. I have encountered something recently that just doesn't feel right but wanted some advice or input from some forum viewers? Without trying to "poison" the topic or conversation, I'll give you a VERY brief background. My daughter is at school at UNC - Chapel Hill and was on track for a certain career path and has always been self driven. She was Valedictorian of her high school class and has a 4 yr scholarship at the university. She recently came home with a complete change of mind about her future and some fundamental questions about careers / paths / intentions of her schooling and job outlook post college. The majority of this comes from a book she read by Shane Claiborne called the Irresistible Revolution.

Please understand that I love my daughter and I support her no matter what she does with her life as she is a christian and loves our LORD. Something just feels wrong about this. The book, the author, and the ideas I'm hearing about. Without going into details, can anyone give me some input / advice as to what they might know? I've looked online and I see some radicalism but I see a lot of biblical references to his writings. I am frustrated about this sense of distrust I have towards this book, but I cannot ignore this creepy feeling I have of a possible cultish thing going on?

Love ya'll for listening and I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Scott
Hello brother Scott.
It is awesome to know that you love the Lord with all your heart and though not a biblical scholar (me neither) you continue to grow in His Word daily! Alleluia!

What I am about to do, I do with a heavy heart. This is a subject that for years has caused me much suffering, conflict, of heart, mind, and spirit. So do not continue to read this, without understanding the ramifications that delving into this may cause you or others. Namely your daughter. Thread carefully, and do not do so, without much prayer, and continued study on the players/subject involved and most importantly within the context of the Word of God. Always remembering that all that you do, must, I repeat must be done with Love. (1 John 4:7-21) To do otherwise negates any perceived good you feel you have done. Your daughter is of age, that she must make decisions on her own. The best you can do is offer advice, and normally the most you wind up doing is just listening. Loving her and being scared for her at the same time. This is a parents burden. I have no idea how non-believing parents handle this, but as a believing parent, turning it over to our Lord Jesus Christ in supplication in prayer works! Just remember, that it requires great patience regardless of what seems to be currently transpiring. One suggestion I do have for you. Pray with your daughter. Find the opportunity to Hold her hand and pray with and for her. Do it over the phone, that too will work. The more you do it, the better you get! :) Always end it with I love you daughter, pumpkin, or whatever name of endearment you have for her.
Selah

Now to attempt to tackle something that clearly will have me in the minority here, but which needs to be presented, so that not only you but others may come to understand that all is not what it appears to be. Each must tackle this subject individually with much prayer and study. Sadly, your "doesn't feel right", "radicalism", "creepy feeling about cultish thing going on" is to be blunt not a unique feeling to have when confronted with ideas that are both old/new in origin, and feelings that I too have experienced.

I've cut and pasted below an article that you might find interesting and enlightening. Sadly, I've had to delete the links, or you would have been able to follow them to the locations where the notes originated from, confirming their authenticity. Some are research sites, others are from quotes made by the individuals from their own sites. Realize that this article is but one of many that I've come across over the years. I've read books, articles, on the subject matter that have left me in dispair and with the heavy heart I mentioned earlier. At least until I had to turn it over to our God. He has brought you here to TJ Scott, in search of what He has allowed me to know and understand through the Holy Spirit, and which I share with great love for you and yours and understanding as well. I will end this with a quote that has become dear to me, when trying to discern right from wrong. "Discernment is not simply a matter of telling the difference between what is right and wrong; rather it is the difference between right and almost right."
YBIC
Nick

Castles in the Sand visits Shane Claiborne
Before a packed auditorium at Warner Pacific College in Portland, Oregon, activist Shane Claiborne gave his message of peace, love, and brotherhood. An engaging speaker, and a man dedicated to his beliefs, Claiborne had the crowd laughing and reminiscing with him as he recounted past adventures and experiences. During the time he spoke he emphasized again and again our Christian duty to help the poor and the oppressed.

“God is creating a holy counter-culture,” said Claiborne, author of Jesus For President, The Irresistible Revolution, and several others.
I sat there in the crowd, taking notes, wanting to believe that Claiborne was truly a believer. I knew he was tight with contemplative Tony Campolo. In his interview with Campolo several years ago, Claiborne made a troubling statement:

Tony Campolo: We don’t have to give up trying to convert each other. What we have to do is show respect to one another. And to speak to each other with a sense that even if people don’t convert, they are God’s people, God loves them, and we do not make the judgment of who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. I think that what we all have to do is leave judgment up to God. The Muslim community is very evangelistic, however what Muslims will not do is condemn Jews and Christians to Hell if in fact they do not accept Islam. (Italics mine)
Shane Claiborne: That seems like a healthy distinction—between converting and condemning. One of the barriers seems to be the assumption that we have the truth and folks who experience things differently will all go to Hell. How do we unashamedly maintain a healthy desire for others to experience the love of God as we have experienced it without condemning others who experience God differently?[1] ( Italics mine)

Rather than correcting Campolo’s errant theology, Claiborne seemingly agreed with it. Biblically, if someone rejects Christ, they are in for a hellish eternity. It’s right there in the Book.
While the Warner Pacific audience heard much about being like Jesus, there was little (actually I don’t think there was any) reference to sin, or redemption, or the Blood. When the author spoke of reconciliation, he didn’t mean between God and man. If that had been my pastor speaking in a packed out place like that, he would have preached the gospel message. It wouldn’t have taken long. Claiborne did not do this, but spoke movingly of his time with Mother Teresa, his experience in Iraq, and his home in Philadelphia.
Claiborne at one point said, “That’s right, I still believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus,” and I began to get hopeful again.

In a few short sentences he seemingly dismissed the possibility of being in End Times, and also noted that some have “such obsession with evangelism.” His point was that we aren’t paying enough attention to the troubles of people in the here and now. Claiborne stated that “as missional Christians in the world,” we need to “live in proximity to those who are hurting in the world.”
The crowd thought he was cool. I thought he was cool. But the presentation lacked Biblical balance.

I had three copies of Castles in the Sand with me. The many readers of this blog (all six of you) know that I have been taking Carolyn Greene’s novel to unlikely places, often leaving it with people who are unfamiliar with the dark side of meditation. We (the novel and I) have been to an AA meeting, a labyrinth, the New Moon vampire movie, and many other places, handing out this book.

I highly recommend Castles in the Sand, particularly for young women, as they will easily relate to the heroine. It is good simply as an adventure story. Greene uncannily demonstrates the deceptive spirit that can entice a person during meditation, and she does it without preaching, without beating anyone over the head to make her point.
I believe much of the emergent church is under this contemplative deception. As Shane Claiborne stood outside the auditorium, I said, “Shane, my name is John, and my mission is to give you this book.”

Claiborne is a gracious guy, and he was dog-tired from all the travel and speaking engagements. But he took Castles in the Sand, and said, “Thank you, brother.” He peered intently at the cover.

I told him goodbye, and prayed for him as I drove home.
Some hours later, in the early dawn, I discovered where Claiborne is scheduled to speak in April. It is with the blasphemous Center for Action and Contemplation,[2] the organization founded by interspiritualist Richard Rohr. Father Rohr, at a Catholic service, prayed to “Father-Mother God.”[3]

In July, Fr. Rohr has a new set of blasphemies scheduled. This is the “Creation as the Body of God” Conference. According to the CAC website, “The whole of Creation, the Body of God, is suffering from oppression and disease.”[4]

On April 8, Claiborne will give a pre-conference workshop on “Sacred Activism,” with Rohr finishing up in the afternoon with his book, The Naked Now: Learning to see as the Mystics see.[5]
Then, beginning April 9, speakers will be author Diana Butler Bass, who also blogs on Jim Wallis’ “God’s Politics,” and Cynthia Borgeault, author of Centering Prayer and Inner Awakening.
Brian McLaren will be there as well, undoubtedly to promote his heretical book, A New Kind of Christianity. McLaren describes himself as a “contemplative-reflexive.”

The fact that Shane Claiborne is affiliating with this conference speaks volumes. He is not going there to preach Salvation, just as he did not give the gospel message at Warner Pacific College. Sadly, Claiborne lines up with the contemplatives.

As Ken Silva of the excellent apprising.org informed me, “Claiborne is one the liberal Red Letter Christians.[6] He’s literally aligned with his mentor Tony Campolo, Jim Wallis, Richard Rohr, Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, and Diana Butler Bass in that organization.”

Can two walk together except they be agreed? (Amos 3:3)

The charm and persuasion (and sincerity) of people like Shane Claiborne makes my quest to distribute Castles in the Sand all the more relevant. If I could, I would get this book in the hands of youth pastors, parents, and every young kid I could find. Once a person reads this, they may have a whole new perception of meditation–for it is in this meditative state, I believe, that many are being pulled deeper and deeper into deception.

Contemplative Spirituality is here. It is in our schools. It is in our churches. It is time to give warning, any kind of warning, even in the form of a novel.

Endnotes:
1. ON EVANGELICALS AND INTERFAITH COOPERATION (Link deleted)
2. Center for Action and Contemplation (Link deleted)
3. CALIFORNIA CATHOLIC DAILY (Link deleted)
4. Creation as the Body of God (Link deleted)
5. Event info on web (Link deleted)
6. What is a “Red Letter Christian“… ask Carla: (Link deleted)
 
Member
If a person is saying that we ought to try and convert others, but we cannot make a definite judgment about their eternal fate (as we are not God), how is that a problem?

The link that references Fr. Richard Rohr is not a valid page. A search of the website reveals no articles about him saying this - only a comment criticizing him for saying things against Catholic teaching, with Father-Mother God certainly is. I don't think the article writer even knows what contemplative Christianity is - he hasn't heard of it so assumes it must be something evil.

He comes off as someone that thinks speaking about hell every time we talk about the bible is 'good preaching'. Hell has a place, but it isn't all we should talk about.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
If a person is saying that we ought to try and convert others, but we cannot make a definite judgment about their eternal fate (as we are not God), how is that a problem?

The link that references Fr. Richard Rohr is not a valid page. A search of the website reveals no articles about him saying this - only a comment criticizing him for saying things against Catholic teaching, with Father-Mother God certainly is. I don't think the article writer even knows what contemplative Christianity is - he hasn't heard of it so assumes it must be something evil.

He comes off as someone that thinks speaking about hell every time we talk about the bible is 'good preaching'. Hell has a place, but it isn't all we should talk about.
Sounds like it hit a sore spot with you brother.
You are either familiar with the subject matter and have no problem with it or you haven't and don't have a problem with it.
If what you have written is all that you focused on and took from it, than your research is incomplete.
Only with love brother.
C4E
<><
 
Active
Brother Scott,what has helped me to young adults in reading anything outside the bible that says is part of the Bible,is how it measures to the truth. example-Someone says God is mad at many believers today,and shows this verse out of content rom 3:23 If you will notice verse 21-22 you will see what this one verse is saying! That because of what Jesus has done all are made righteous!! Through his very blood! But in a book some look to take the Word out of the true context it is written! So I look to show this to the person,let them make up there own mind bro.Hey we can only show the way to the door Jesus is knocking at bro,they each have to open this door on there own.( rev 3:20-22.) Hope that helps brother.The point is Jesus never wishes any to feel, or believe themselves to be condemed!( rom 8:1) So why would a book outside the truth do it? hehe
 
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