• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 13,000 members today

    Register Log In

Mother Mary

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Administrator
Staff Member
Blessed Virgin Mary: Primary Doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church
The Blessed Virgin Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ. In addition to her Biblical biography, there are three primary doctrines that the Roman Catholic Church teaches about Mary: (1) The Immaculate Conception, (2) Mary as co-mediatrix with Jesus Christ, and (3) The Assumption.

Blessed Virgin Mary: The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception teaches that the Blessed Virgin Mary was born without original sin. She was a virgin when she conceived Christ, impregnated through the power of the Holy Spirit. In 1854, four years before the apparitions of Mary at Lourdes, Pope Pius IX defined the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception which stated that "the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instant of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of Original Sin." The Bible teaches that only Jesus Christ, the second Adam, was born without original sin, and all other men and women are born into original sin, inherited from Adam (Romans 5:12).

Furthermore, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a virgin during her entire lifetime. Yet Matthew, a Jew writing to Jews, calls Jesus "her firstborn son" (Matthew 1:25), an expression used by Jews only if other children were born after the first one; otherwise, "only son" would have been used. Scholars believe Matthew wrote his gospel about 35 years after the birth of Christ and he evidently knew that Mary had children after Jesus was born. The Bible specifically says that Jesus had brothers and Matthew even tells us their names: "Isn't Mary known to be his mother, and James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas his brothers? Aren't his sisters our neighbors?" (Matthew 13:55-56). Roman Catholic scholars claim that Matthew, Luke and Paul (1 Corinthians 9:5) didn't mean brother when they said brother, but meant cousin. This view is based on the Greek word "adelphos," which can be translated "brother" or "cousin." However, the Jews compared Jesus to His ordinary brothers in an attempt to question the validity of His ministry; it would have been much less compelling to compare Jesus with His cousins.

Blessed Virgin Mary: The Doctrine of Mary as Co-Mediatrix with Jesus Christ
The most disturbing doctrine affords the Blessed Virgin Mary a place positionally as co-mediatrix with Jesus Christ. In the words of Pope John Paul II: "In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God's plan, Mary is the 'woman' (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood, which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."

There is no scriptural basis for placing Mary in a position as co-mediatrix for the church on earth. Christ's words were also very clear on this point: "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). The doctrine of Mary as co-mediatrix has never been declared by any pope while speaking "ex cathedra," or under the cloak of infallibility. There is currently some pressure within Catholicism for the Holy See to issue such a statement. However, the outcry from Protestantism would shake the foundations of Christianity around the globe, and would be tantamount to the Vatican launching a missile strike against the Ecumenical (Christian unity) movement.

Blessed Virgin Mary: The Doctrine of the Assumption
The Assumption is a doctrine that teaches that the Blessed Virgin Mary had been taken up, body and soul, into heaven. This process is called "translation" in the Bible and there are two notable examples in the scripture, Enoch (Hebrews 11:5) and Elijah (2 Kings 2:11). At the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451, when bishops from throughout the Mediterranean met in Constantinople, Emperor Marcian asked the Patriarch of Jerusalem to bring the relics of Mary to Constantinople to be enshrined in the capitol. The patriarch explained to the emperor that there were no relics of Mary in Jerusalem, that "Mary had died in the presence of the apostles; but her tomb, when opened later . . . was found empty and so the apostles concluded that the body was taken up into heaven." There is no scriptural evidence to support or deny this doctrine as applied to Mary.

Blessed Virgin Mary: Model for Faith, Not Idol for Worship
If the admiration of the Blessed Virgin Mary becomes anything more than using her as a model of faith in God the Father, Roman Catholics delve into dangerous theological territory. The tendency to elevate her to a position of divine status is alarming. Mary can be a model (like Paul or Peter) for our faith, but she is not divine nor is she able to provide for our salvation. Jesus Christ alone is God and is the only person capable of enabling the salvation of all mankind. The Word of God is explicit on this subject.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Member
Interesting Chad

:rose: Hi Chad. I have recently and finally left the Roman Catholic Church and it is because of the doctrines you just pointed out. The heirachy with Mary is confusing and alarming to me and it still mucks my head up now. You so nicely asked if I had a special prayer request for you to pray for and truthfully this is it. I have so many wrong thoughts about Jesus, taught to me from the Roman Catholic Church. I am still trying to get rid of the ideology that has been placed in my mind. It hurts me so much and Chad, this is the only support at talkjesus, that I truly get. The way I was taught about God, was all wrong. I am talking over 30 years of teaching. I just want to know Jesus like you do. Simple. Simple wisdom. If you know where I can get support as a recovering ex catholic, please could you let me know. I am going to a Pentecostal church now, but I still think that I need a bit of Christian therapy, to overcome all the years of images that have been placed in my head. I still call her "Mary, mother of God", though I think that that is a complete insult to my Father. I pray so much to have Christ work in my life. I love Hanni's newfound faith. It is beautiful. I would love to be more like her, in thoughts of God. Thanks for all your help Chad and I would like to place one day soon, a testimony of how talkjesus has helped in my life too. God bless you Chad and Happy and Holy Thanksgiving. I thank the Lord for you and talkjesus. Amen:rose:
 
Member
To all concerned

I read the write up of Chad about Mother Mary with interest. Interesting of course. However, allow me to state a few points:

1. It is not Catholics alone, who give great spiritual position to Mother Mary. Orthodox sects also revere her in a similar manner.
2. Until the Protestantism emerged during the 16th century or so, Mary was given an unquestionable position by all Apostolistic churches. Meaning it took almost 1600 years for someone to 'question' or doubt her position. Does it mean the Church till 16th century and all the Saints, spiritual heads and believers were not sensible enough to think otherwise? We all know the troubles and pains they took to nurture the Church, till it became ready for a 'protestant' movement.
3. If you stick to Mathew 1:25 (1st born), intending Mother Mary had other issues, why Jesus, in his most painful moments at the cross, asked his disciple to take care of his Mother? She should be having other 4 or so children to live with.
4. In the 1st century aristocratic and most God/thorah beliving jewish custom, and way of life it is not practical to think that Joseph, after fully knowing Mary being the mother of God- a lady most blessed in history- having sexual contacts with her. He cannot. Moreover, Joseph was an elderly person at the time of their union.

There are several other points to counter the arguments on "other children of Mother Mary". It is for the readers to use their common sense and faith and reach a conclusion.

Sonny Jacob.
 
Administrator
Staff Member
Brother Sonny, regardless of what denominations give her great spiritual position - TRUTH speaks for itself and it is stronger than man's views or religions.

Please read this:
http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=5886

"why Jesus, in his most painful moments at the cross, asked his disciple to take care of his Mother"

What exactly does that have to do with the way people look at Mary? He was expressing the need for his human earthly brothers to take care of their elderly mother, Mary. This does not imply anything to do with her being more than just an earthly mother, for that is what she was. Blessed, but still human and earthly.
 
Member
Why didn't Jesus come to earth earlier than He did?Why not. say, at the beginning of the Roman Empire or somewhere around the time of Nebuchadnezer and the Babylonian Empire? Or why not later?

It is my theory that the timing of Jesus' coming to earth depended (at least in large part) on the availability of a suitable mother and that the Mary of Scripture was that mother. I believe that, though she was human, she was sinless, or as near to being sinless as a human being could ever be, qualified to give birth to the God-man, Jesus.

Thus she does hold a position of honor and she deserves it. But, there is an enormous difference between honoring someone and worshipping them. And it would appear that the Catholic Church has crossed the line into worshipping Mary.

SLE
 
Member
SpiritLedEd said:
Why didn't Jesus come to earth earlier than He did?Why not. say, at the beginning of the Roman Empire or somewhere around the time of Nebuchadnezer and the Babylonian Empire? Or why not later?
It is my theory that the timing of Jesus' coming to earth depended (at least in large part) on the availability of a suitable mother and that the Mary of Scripture was that mother. I believe that, though she was human, she was sinless, or as near to being sinless as a human being could ever be, qualified to give birth to the God-man, Jesus.
Thus she does hold a position of honor and she deserves it. But, there is an enormous difference between honoring someone and worshipping them. And it would appear that the Catholic Church has crossed the line into worshipping Mary.
SLE
I have to disagree with your theory Ed, Mary was in as much need for a savior as the rest of us. The time of Jesus' birth was known from the begining by the Father. Mary is our sister not our mother.

Matthew 12:46-50
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47*Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48*But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49*And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50*For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
 
Administrator
Staff Member
I agree with jiggy. GOD made it clear that ALL have fallen short the grace of GOD.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
 
Member
jiggyfly said:
I have to disagree with your theory Ed, Mary was in as much need for a savior as the rest of us. The time of Jesus' birth was known from the begining by the Father. Mary is our sister not our mother.
Matthew 12:46-50
While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47*Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48*But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49*And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50*For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Amen brother, Mary was chosen from the beginning of time.
 
Member
Chad said:
Brother Sonny, regardless of what denominations give her great spiritual position - TRUTH speaks for itself and it is stronger than man's views or religions.

Please read this:
http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=5886

"why Jesus, in his most painful moments at the cross, asked his disciple to take care of his Mother"

What exactly does that have to do with the way people look at Mary? He was expressing the need for his human earthly brothers to take care of their elderly mother, Mary. This does not imply anything to do with her being more than just an earthly mother, for that is what she was. Blessed, but still human and earthly.
Dear Chad,

Thanks for your further comments.

I am not a Roman Catholic 1st of all. U r relying on the Holy Bible available in front of you, the english version. Hv you ever thought after how many translations, your Bible reached its current status? From Greek to Latin to English with hundreds of versions. If you refer the original Greek or Syriac versions and compare with the current KJV or other comtemporary versions, you will be shocked to see the differences.

It is certainly not logical to think our Christian forefathers, say from 1st to 4th century- had anything in mind other than true faith and worship. They suffered in the name of Jesus, yet spread the good news. Their faith in Mother Mary should be considered righteous and genuine because they never had any earthly or monetary desires or benefits to gain by spreading the 'wrong news' and leading millions in the wrong way.

You also mention about adding books to Bible. Remember, Jesus never wrote any book, available to us. At the time of early councils- Nicea, Constantinopolis, Ephasus etc, the attendees- spiritual fathers compiled the books. They approved many and rejected many, for there were thousands of books. You and me are relying on their decision and approving it by accepting the present form of Bible.

I feel we should rely on the doctrins and faith of these spiritual leaders, who never wanted Christianity and the good news to be twisted according to individual will or wish as it is happening now. As I stated earlier, around AD 1600, protestentism developed. Now there are several thousand denominations. Every day a new group emerge, claiming that they are the true worshippers and all the others are wrong. If the basic principle is right, there should have been only one protestent church, till his second coming.

I am not an advocate of Catholicism. But, I see some amount of discipline in this Apostolic Church. So are Orthodox, Coptic etc.

God save you and me.

Sonny.
 
Administrator
Staff Member
"Remember, Jesus never wrote any book, available to us. "
"At the time of early councils- Nicea, Constantinopolis, Ephasus etc, the attendees- spiritual fathers compiled the books. "

First of all the Holy Spirit is the Author.

"But, I see some amount of discipline in this Apostolic Church. So are Orthodox, Coptic etc"

Who cares? I go by the Holy Bible alone, the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Author Himself. I do not need man's discipline, "doctrine", etc.

"If you refer the original Greek or Syriac versions and compare with the current KJV or other comtemporary versions, you will be shocked to see the differences. "

Show us the difference. I know converting 2000yr old Greek/Hebrew to modern day English will have its fair difference, don't you? Does that mean the Bible is any less than it was? I think not. Neither does GOD think so.
 
Member
Holy spirit is NOT the author. It was written by human beings, in their language which you and me should understand till the end of times. Of course the Holy spirit has prompted them and was dwelling within them while carrying out this holy work.

If you want to see the difference between the original scriptures and what we have now, at least refer the Vulgate and Peshitha, that should be available in your nearest Church libraries. Do a fair translation with the available tools. And then, you too will be shocked like me and many other.

Sunny.
 
Member
susantrd said:
Holy spirit is NOT the author. It was written by human beings, in their language which you and me should understand till the end of times. Of course the Holy spirit has prompted them and was dwelling within them while carrying out this holy work.
If you want to see the difference between the original scriptures and what we have now, at least refer the Vulgate and Peshitha, that should be available in your nearest Church libraries. Do a fair translation with the available tools. And then, you too will be shocked like me and many other.
Sunny.
If the Holy Spirit is not the author of God's written word than who is?
 
Administrator
Staff Member
susantrd said:
Holy spirit is NOT the author. It was written by human beings, in their language which you and me should understand till the end of times. Of course the Holy spirit has prompted them and was dwelling within them while carrying out this holy work.

If you want to see the difference between the original scriptures and what we have now, at least refer the Vulgate and Peshitha, that should be available in your nearest Church libraries. Do a fair translation with the available tools. And then, you too will be shocked like me and many other.

Sunny.
100% wrong regarding the Holy Spirit not being the author. I can't emphasize enough how wrong. As jiggy said, who is the author then?

Questions for you:

1. Do you believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior, Son of GOD the living Word Himself?

2. Do you believe the Holy Bible is the book of life as GOD mentioned in the Bible itself?

2 Peter 1:20-21

20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Galatians 1:12

For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ

I am giving you only one warning. Do not come here preaching lies and disregarding the Holy Spirit as the author of the Holy Bible. If you do so, then you walk in satan's shoes and hate GOD. Talk Jesus does not tolerate false preaching and teaching. If you are deceived about this, may the Holy Spirit reveal the Truth to you if you seek His face.

Romans 2:6-10

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek
 
Member
It is certainly not logical to think our Christian forefathers, say from 1st to 4th century- had anything in mind other than true faith and worship...Their faith in Mother Mary should be considered righteous and genuine because they never had any earthly or monetary desires or benefits to gain by spreading the 'wrong news' and leading millions in the wrong way.
It may not be "logical", but it is fact...you may want to read the Christian history books again.

"Our Christian forefathers, say from 1st to 4th century- had anything in mind other than true faith and worship"

So thier 'faith in Mary' was just 'a whim on the side' of true faith?
Promoting her to co-redeemer of the human race, must have been a fanciful whim to. (certianly had nothing to do with the true gospel)

"Their faith in Mother Mary should be considered righteous and genuine"?

No, it should be considered one of the biggest heresies ever promoted by the catholic church. (by anyone who has truly accepted Jesus Christ as thier Saviour)

"They had nothing to gain by spreading the 'wrong news'?"

They gained religious power and authority over the world they lived in, but I suppose that is nothing if we know who God really is.

"I am not an advocate of Catholicism." - "I feel we should rely on the doctrins and faith of these spiritual leaders"

If thats not advocating catholicism, what is it? Just a 'feeling' that has no scriptural foundation?

Try to erase all those images of Mary with a halo over her head, and see instead a lady with a wash bucket and children, a small, poor home, with few luxuries or conveniences, and a very special heart. Mary would be the first to tell us that she was just a woman, and like all of the rest of mankind, she was born of Adam's race, and she inherited the same sin nature that all of us have, and so needed a redeemer as much as the rest of us did.
 
Last edited:
Administrator
Staff Member
Hi five to Coconut :)

Excellent points made. May the HOLY SPIRIT (AUTHOR OF *HOLY* BIBLE) grant you wisdom and discernment susantrd.
 
Member
In your "Mother Mary" post, you say that Pope Pius IX declared that the virgin Mary was conceived without the "stain of original sin." Are you saying that Catholic doctrine holds that Mary was born without a "sin nature"?

When I was in the Catholic Church it was my experience that the teaching was that she was like Jesus, the ,Son of Man, "...tempted in every way, just as we are, yet was without sin." (See Hebrews 4:15). Jesus (AS MAN) was born with a sin nature, but He was spiritually bulletproof because He was filled with the Holy Spirit (See John 1:32-34). The same goes for Mary, His earthly mother (See Luke 1:35).
 
Member
SpiritLedEd said:
In your "Mother Mary" post, you say that Pope Pius IX declared that the virgin Mary was conceived without the "stain of original sin." Are you saying that Catholic doctrine holds that Mary was born without a "sin nature"?
When I was in the Catholic Church it was my experience that the teaching was that she was like Jesus, the ,Son of Man, "...tempted in every way, just as we are, yet was without sin." (See Hebrews 4:15). Jesus (AS MAN) was born with a sin nature, but He was spiritually bulletproof because He was filled with the Holy Spirit (See John 1:32-34). The same goes for Mary, His earthly mother (See Luke 1:35).
Ed, Jesus was without sin because He is the only begotten Son of God. The scriptures do not support Mary, the earthly mother of Jesus being without sin. If having the Holy Spirit come upon someone indicates that they are without sin, then the old testament is full of such people. Catholicism from it's beginning has has tried to mediate between God and man, but this is the position of Jesus the Christ and Him alone.

1Timothy 2:5&6
5*For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6*who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

There is no record in the new testament, where anyone prayed to or hailed Mary. Yet it is common practice among Catholics today.

Likewise, there is no scriptural basis for the clergy/laity. system.

1Peter 2:9
9*But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10*which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Which indicates that many of the common practices of Catholicism are the traditons of man.

Matthew 15:1-20
1*Some Pharisees and teachers of religious law now arrived from Jerusalem to interview Jesus. 2*“Why do your disciples disobey our age-old traditions?” they demanded. “They ignore our tradition of ceremonial hand washing before they eat.”
3*Jesus replied, “And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God? 4 For instance, God says, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.’* 5 But you say, ‘You don’t need to honor your parents by caring for their needs if you give the money to God instead.’ 6*And so, by your own tradition, you nullify the direct commandment of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said,
8* ‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far away.
9* Their worship is a farce,
for they replace God’s commands with their own man-made teachings.’* ”
10*Then Jesus called to the crowds and said, “Listen to what I say and try to understand. 11*You are not defiled by what you eat; you are defiled by what you say and do.* ”
12*Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?”
13*Jesus replied, “Every plant not planted by my heavenly Father will be rooted up, 14 so ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.”
15*Then Peter asked Jesus, “Explain what you meant when you said people aren’t defiled by what they eat.”
16*“Don’t you understand?” Jesus asked him. 17*“Anything you eat passes through the stomach and then goes out of the body. 18*But evil words come from an evil heart and defile the person who says them. 19*For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all other sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander. 20*These are what defile you. Eating with unwashed hands could never defile you and make you unacceptable to God!”
 
Member
"Jesus was without sin because He is the only begotten Son of God."

It should be obvious to those who are not looking for something to venerate besides Jesus, that Mary was not without sin because she was not the only begotten Daughter of God.

If Mary was without sin, then so am I...who would be foolish enough to believe that?

Off the record, Mary is not my mother, and my Father is in Heaven, and i`m not talking about Pope Pius or none of the rest of histories pious popes who have presumed to enthrone themselves as gods over Gods heritage.

By my tone, you can correctly assume that I abhor the very idea of Papal authority, and all thier unholy teachings over the Holy Spirit, the Holy Bible, and a Holy God.
 
Administrator
Staff Member
I cannot seem to comprehend why people are in love with the "catholic" doctrine or so fond of Mary. She was beautiful woman at heart indeed and a BELIEVER IN CHRIST. Otherwise, GOD would not have chosen an unbeliever. She was NEVER mentioned to be sinless and never mentioned to be other than what everyone else is, a HUMAN in need of a SAVIOR (whom she carried to *FULFILL PROPHECY*) according to the Father's will.
 
Member
Mary

I totally agree with the Holy Spirit inspired post by Chad on Mother Mary. May the Lord open the eyes of the millions of deceived seekers.
 
Top