Matthew 23:14

[philosopher]

''Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore you shall receive the greater condemnation.'' (KJV)

What did Jesus mean when he said they devoured widows' houses? My first thought was that they were exploiting them and taking all their substance (money etc.). Perhaps someone could shed some light if my interpretation is off.

 

[Davy]

Hi Philosopher:
Matthew 23:14, says: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows' houses"

Interestingly this verse is not in all Greek manuscripts of Matthew. It may have been added because of Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47, which talk about the same subjects Jesus spoke about. So clearly Jesus did make this statement. The general consensus of opinion as to what this means is; as these were widows, the house and land which was left to them when their husband died would have took considerable effort to manage back in those days. There was no machinery, it was hard graft, especially for an old woman. So Pharisees took advantage of these vulnerable old women, they offered to take over the running of their land and give the old women a percentage of the profits. However, they used their religion as a cloak of benevolence to rob them. They did not honor their word and if these old women started going senile, they could find themselves handing over their land and home to these greedy wicked religious leaders.

Yet, despite being nothing better than greedy common criminal, Matthew 23:14, continues saying: "and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation." By their long prayers they put on the appearance of holiness and where able to induced many vulnerable women to give them control of their estates. Its hard to believe the average person on the street back them would not have known about this, gossip traveled very quickly in those days, as it does today, yet they were still respected by the mass majority, which just shows the poor spiritual condition of the people back then.

Even more sad, now and again you can read in the news papers of religious leaders who get arrested and have been doing something very similar today!

 

[philosopher]

Hi Davy, much appreciated for this response. It put things into context of the time. In a way, we can parallel it to the wolves in sheep clothing of today, who take large tithes responsible for the church, and than spend a ton building a gigantic mansion to live in.

 

[Brother Mike]

good.

Ya, we sometimes have to get a understanding of the times Jesus lived in to be able to apply the Word for today. It does apply though.
philosopher

It put things into context of the time. In a way, we can parallel it to the wolves in sheep clothing of today, who take large tithes responsible for the church, and than spend a ton building a gigantic mansion to live in.

Let me ask a few Questions Brother.........

1) The Man of God, doing the most important thing on earth in getting the Word across the Globe is less deserving of nice things than Hue at the Playboy mansion?

2) If a man of God has a board of directors, and only takes a percent (10% to priest in the bible) and that adds up to a couple million a year with all that comes in though it be a small percent, is that wrong?

3) Are you saying that the Wealth of the sinner needs to stay in the sinners hands, and it's not laid up for us. Did God create all the wealth on the planet for the devil and his crowd?

4) Gold is the standard for most all currency. When the dollar drops in value because we print more than we have Gold to back, the price of Gold goes up.
Being blessed with faithful Abraham and heirs according to the promise, being the seed of Abraham, are we to refuse Gold, or any other wealth?

Gen 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

5) Is a multi million dollar home to expensive? Who decides what point is to much money? Our father in heaven lives on streets made of Gold, so pure it's translucent. Just 100 ounces of that gold and we are set up for a long time. Certainly our own father would think a few hundred million to be pocket change.
Who sets the price bar of what is to expensive and nice for God's own children?

Looking up Gold and wealth in the Word I see lots of evil done with it, I also see David bringing in what would be billions today for Solomon to build the Lord's temple.

Is not wealth better in our hands?

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Peace Seeker]

The Man of God, doing the most important thing on earth in getting the Word across the Globe is less deserving of nice things than Hue at the Playboy mansion?

Hi Brother Mike,

I know your questions we're directed at Philosopher, so forgive me if I am "jumping in here" amiss. It's just that I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "deserving". If deserving is taken to mean "a right", I would disagree with that. Does God respond to us with gifts because we expect Him to, because we did something for Him? As if He somehow owes us?

I'm sure that's not what you're saying and it's a matter of semantics, so please help me understand the context of your statement. I have no problem with Christians being well-off, it's just the word "deserving" that I'm having a problem with. To me that word equates to boasting : "I have the right to this because I have done so many good things for the Lord". Cheers!

 

[Brother Mike]

Deserving:

PeaceKeeper:

I'm sure that's not what you're saying and it's a matter of semantics, so please help me understand the context of your statement. I have no problem with Christians being well-off, it's just the word "deserving" that I'm having a problem with. To me that word equates to boasting : "I have the right to this because I have done so many good things for the Lord". Cheers!

Thank you Brother...... Jesus said.


Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. (KJV- I think not)
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Certainly everything we do gets rewarded. Seed time and harvest, God does not forget our labor's.

Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

We are told to pay our ministers well.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

GNB:
1Ti 5:17 The elders who do good work as leaders should be considered worthy of receiving double pay, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture says, "Do not muzzle an ox when you are using it to thresh grain" and "Workers should be given their pay."

Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

As Children of God, Jesus said we as Christians have things to do that are just expected of us. Where is the reward or special treatment for doing the things we are expected to do anyway? We should not have this "DESERVING" attitude.

When I made that statement, I was saying that someone that spreads the gospel if far more worthy of, money, honor, and respect than someone running the Playboy mansion, or even being a Doctor or lawyer. What we find the most valuable is where we put our money, prayer, and efforts into.

I would rather see a Pastor going to preach in another place riding in his own Jet, being well rested without the hassle of the airports, having time to focus on prayer and the things of God a private jet would give him, than to see a top Exec for Jack Danials fly to a meeting in comfort to discuss better distribution of Whiskey.

Certainly A Pastor of the Lord should expect nothing Feel as he deserves anything, and appreciate everything that comes his way.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[philosopher]

Hi Mike:

I was just wondering, why does anyone need to live in multi-million dollar houses, with 4 vehicles, and a plethora of different ''toys''? Especially when large portions of the world population is just barely getting their water to drink, and a good meal itself, can be a luxury. Does it reflect Christian humility to be living in excess - or gluttonous I believe is the official term. Now, I never meant to say that anyone who is rich is a wolf in sheeps clothing, but some pastors have exploited their position of power, to take advantage of this.

Jesus' own words: ''And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. - Matthew 19:24

 

[Brother Mike]

Wealth in perspective.

Deu 8:17 And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.
Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.


Thank you Brother for your thoughts. Now read the above a few times........

I God give you power to get Wealth. Why?

To Watch a larger TV that covers the whole wall all day?
To fish on your nice multi million dollar boat day in and day out?

What could we possibly need with all that Wealth?

Pro 13:22 A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just.

All the wealth in the World that sinners have to do evil, and spend on fleshly wants and desire. Who did God say it belongs to?

Jesus' own words: ''And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -

Ah, good point brother, but did you read the rest of the story?
The Kingdom of God is God's operation of things, its faith in trusting God, and not the arm of man. This cost king Asa his life, he trusted in his wealth to get out of a bad situation, and did not go to God, He also did not ask God about his feet which ended up killing him but went to his doctors.

Jesus told the Rich young ruler you lack one thing, go sell all you have, follow me. This possibly could have been Judas replacement, He could have been written about more, but he walked away not wanting to part with his wealth.

How hard it is for a rich man to enter into the things and operation of God. (Kingdom of God) Jesus said.

Jesus was not trying to make him broke. He was trying to get the man to operate the Kingdom.

What operation? Give and it shall be given..... God is not mocked, you shall reap what you sow. Your seed shall be multiplied. Cast your bread on many waters and it shall return.

The man did not take the time to even listen to the rest of what Jesus said.

Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mar 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?

Whats the problem here? The bible says they were astonished out of measure. This is pure shock. They heard the rich young ruler ask about eternal life, Jesus being Jesus talked about what he wanted to teach. He often did that.

Jesus continues...............

Mar 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Seems like Jesus is way off the subject here. With man it's impossible, with God, all things are possible. Jesus is still talking about that rich young ruler. Remember it said that Jesus loved him.

So Like normal Peter interrupts.

Mar 10:28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

They did leave all, but they were not broke. Judas carried the money bag, they handed out money to the poor all the time. This concerned Peter.

Jesus continues........... still on the same subject about that rich young ruler selling all and giving to the poor.

Mar 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,

There is no man Jesus said that has left everything for the sake of the gospel. That is what Jesus was Asking the rich young ruler to do. Leave it all, follow him.

Mar 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Now had the rich young ruler obeyed, He would have gotten 100 times back what he gave. In man's system of hording money, and trying to meet his own needs it's impossible to multiply wealth like that. Even banks only give about 5% if your lucky.

With God 100 fold back is not impossible. Its the Kingdom of God in operation. Jesus was kind enough to add that Peter will get Eternal life also, answering his question.

So, if someone obeys God, puts God first in their wealth, and God increased them more and more, why can't they have that nice house?

See judgement is wrong, we don't know what obedience they have kept before the Lord, we don't know what they have sacrificed. Not saying all are good, some are crooks, and they will be judged, but not by us.

As for the poor?

Job 36:11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.

That sound like anyone needs to be poor?

Isa 1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Money won't corrupt you if you will obey and serve God, putting him first in everything in your life. God is not hung up on handing you millions. Just means more he can direct into the salvation of the lost. Campaign for the right people to have control, feed many.

We can do none of that broke.

Pro 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.


Think about it brother.....

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[philosopher]

Thanks Mike, you have certainly given me some food for thought here. I still don't quite think it's necessary for anyone to be living in extreme luxury, but the Bible does seem to teach prosperity for the obedient.

God bless you.

 

[jiggyfly]

PeaceKeeper:
Thank you Brother...... Jesus said.


Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. (KJV- I think not)
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.






Jesus Is Lord.

What is the point you were trying to make here with this scripture Mike? I think I missed it.

 

[jiggyfly]

Deu 8:17
Money won't corrupt you if you will obey and serve God, putting him first in everything in your life. God is not hung up on handing you millions. Just means more he can direct into the salvation of the lost. Campaign for the right people to have control, feed many.

We can do none of that broke.

Pro 10:22 The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

Pro 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.


Think about it brother.....

Jesus Is Lord.

Peter and John had no money but look what God did through them.

 

[shoutoutloud]

if we wait till we have money to serve God then is money in control of your life or God? Do you buy miracles with your money or wait for them from God.

 

[Brother Mike]

Peter and John.

Peter and John had no money but look what God did through them.

Now, If I am sitting at the table with you and others, and you leave. Then someone asked "Where is Jiggyfly" and we were told you were out handing our money away to the poor.................................

If we where poor, we would have to hunt you down and stop you. Since we have more than enough, not a big deal.

Mar 6:35 And when the day was now far spent, his disciples came unto him, and said, This is a desert place, and now the time is far passed:
Mar 6:36 Send them away, that they may go into the country round about, and into the villages, and buy themselves bread: for they have nothing to eat.
Mar 6:37 He answered and said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they say unto him, Shall we go and buy two hundred pennyworth of bread, and give them to eat?

One answer was to spend about seven months of wages to buy all that bread. No issue since they had the money, but an issue if you can't carry it all, or find a place to buy it.

They where not Broke Brother.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

if we wait till we have money to serve God then is money in control of your life or God? Do you buy miracles with your money or wait for them from God.

Good question, I think some believe that any legitimate move of God starts with a fund raiser.LOL

 

[jiggyfly]

Now, If I am sitting at the table with you and others, and you leave. Then someone asked "Where is Jiggyfly" and we were told you were out handing our money away to the poor.................................

If we where poor, we would have to hunt you down and stop you. Since we have more than enough, not a big deal.

Mar 6:35 And when the day was now far spent, his disciples came unto him, and said, This is a desert place, and now the time is far passed:
Mar 6:36 Send them away, that they may go into the country round about, and into the villages, and buy themselves bread: for they have nothing to eat.
Mar 6:37 He answered and said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they say unto him, Shall we go and buy two hundred pennyworth of bread, and give them to eat?

One answer was to spend about seven months of wages to buy all that bread. No issue since they had the money, but an issue if you can't carry it all, or find a place to buy it.

They where not Broke Brother.

Jesus Is Lord.

Well Peter said he had none.
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
Acts 3:6 (KJV)
Do you think he was lying to the lame guy?:wink:

 

[Brother Mike]

No.

Do you think he was lying to the lame guy?

Nope, of course he was not lying.

I went and picked the wife up today and did not bring my Wallet. I would have said the same thing to someone.

I don't think Peter was living the high life, but having a two story house, God blessing him, getting money out of a fish, I don't think Peter was broke. In fact, in Acts it is written.

Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

That is a whole lot of Silver and Gold brother, not saying Peter kept any, but he certainly was not Broke.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Peace Seeker]

PeaceKeeper:
Thank you Brother...... Jesus said.


Luk 17:7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. (KJV- I think not)
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Hi Brother Mike,

Thank you for your answers, I have considered them and will continue to meditate on them. But as you'll see, I disagree with the mindset behind wealth. This above statement confirms what I was thinking, that we shouldn't expect rewards just because we obeyed God. It's our reasonable service and honor to do so.

Certainly everything we do gets rewarded. Seed time and harvest, God does not forget our labor's.

Yes, God certainly does give us good things, as any father would to his children, but I would think the more one is given, the harder it would be for him to retain a proper level of humility and perspective on the blessings he has been given. And I agree with the scriptures you provided, about God giving us power to get wealth, etc.

But what troubles me is the way some Christians seem to always and automatically equate blessings from God with wealth, ie : material things. What about spiritual blessings? Are they not as, or more desirable? Yet it is the boats and cars and mansions that get all our attention. And why would a spiritually-discerned Christian desire the things of the world? We are in but not of the world. Aren't we to be different than the world?

In your example about the pastor having his own private jet, I could argue that his having one is akin to wanting things to be easy, with as little sacrifice as possible for him while he performs his duties to God. This would be cheating himself out of the greater blessings.

If not having the jet means he may have more hassles, such as the aforementioned airport lineups, etc., all that ultimately would mean for him is that he would be laying up eternal treasures in heaven for himself for faithfully persevering under such conditions; treasures that are far better than the mere conveniences of a jet plane for a few short years down here on earth.

Perhaps some balance is needed in a Christian's desire for or accumulation of wealth, considering the great job the media does of painting wealthy Christians as hypocrites, worldly, greedy, etc.

These words in Proverbs come to mind :

Proverbs 30:8-9
Sayings of Agur
8 Keep falsehood and lies far from me;
give me neither poverty nor riches,
but give me only my daily bread.
9 Otherwise, I may have too much and disown you
and say, ‘Who is the LORD?’
Or I may become poor and steal,
and so dishonor the name of my God.

We are told to pay our ministers well.

But how well is well? The sky's the limit? Most pastors don't preach much more than a social gospel anymore, watering down the Word in order to please everybody and not rock and boat. Yet they live very well for doing so.

As you quoted, Paul said the elders should be counted worthy of double honour, and I don't have a problem with that. But I don't equate the modern preacher or Christian as being a Paul or the people of his day. Paul describes how their day to day existence consisted of harsh persecution, hardships, hunger, stonings, etc.; basically just trying to stay in one piece and one step ahead of the mobs. So YES, to THEM a double portion, make it quadruple!!

To our modern preacher, no.

Philosopher made a good question, asking why someone would need 4 cars, a huge mansion, etc. How many poor people could such a one clothe and feed if he sold just one of his cars and tried his best to make do with only three cars?

I really do get your point that why should evil people have big mansions and not Christians? But I would reply, why should Christians want to be like evil people? Some Hollywood stars have 100 room mansions, and when I look at that I think decadence. And no matter who the Christian was that had the same circumstances, I probably wouldn't be able to help thinking the same about him.

The love of money is the root of all evil, so if you don't love money you don't need a garage full of new cars and a huge mansion IMO. My wish is nothing more than to retire and have a nice comfortable home in the country, where I can fish, enjoy the scenery and spend my days with my wife. Am I too simple? Am I not expecting enough from God? Is it lack of faith for me to not want or expect wealth from God?

Why are there terms such as filthy rich, filthy lucre, obscenely rich, etc.? I think it is because most people instinctively know what is too much.

If the example in Mark 10 is that he who follows Jesus closest and and the most fittingly is he that gives all his wealth away, then how does having the opposite of that - enormous wealth - mean you are following Jesus just as fittingly? Giving it all away and following Him, and having it all and following Him are no different? That doesn't make sense to me.

Is it a good witness to the congregation (never mind unbelievers) for the Pastor to wear a Rolex and Armani suit and have a Jaguar in the parking lot, while asking his working-class flock to give generously when the collection plate comes around? Or maybe in such churches everyone is rich? But that's a whole other subject - churches that only want certain kinds of people in them........

How many Christians have fallen hard because of being corrupted by wealth? How many televangelists or pastors of mega churches?

Luke 14:12-14
12 Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or sisters, your relatives, or your rich neighbors; if you do, they may invite you back and so you will be repaid. 13 But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Seriously, how many rich Christians do this? It is not the rich that make up the bulk of charity giving, so to say that when God prospers Christians it is always because of their good stewardship with money, needs some reflecting on.
The stats show that the average Christian gives around 5% of his income to charity or tithing, while the rich give 1.7%. So yes, they give more money, but less percentage. So why doesn't God give more wealth to the ones who give more faithfully (the average person)? Why isn't every Christian rich? One answer is, if every Christian was rich the world would say that's why they're Christians.

As Children of God, Jesus said we as Christians have things to do that are just expected of us. Where is the reward or special treatment for doing the things we are expected to do anyway? We should not have this "DESERVING" attitude.

When I made that statement, I was saying that someone that spreads the gospel if far more worthy of, money, honor, and respect than someone running the Playboy mansion, or even being a Doctor or lawyer. What we find the most valuable is where we put our money, prayer, and efforts into.

I don't think Hugh Hefner or lawyers are worthy of money, honor, and respect, but neither do I think Christians should desire those things (money, honor, and respect). If they do, they have their reward.

Certainly A Pastor of the Lord should expect nothing Feel as he deserves anything, and appreciate everything that comes his way.

Amen. And I feel that appreciation is shown by NOT overindulging in anything. From the time I was a young boy my grandparents always made a point of teaching me to think of others first. Whenever they offered me a piece of cake, for example, they would watch me to see if I would take the big piece in the pan, or the smaller piece. I realized later in life that they had purposely cut the pieces that way.

My point is that being thankful means you don't covet/expect/desire the best for yourself, you prefer others to have it before you. Taking the big piece of cake and justifying that God wants me to have it, is contrary to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Blessings, brother!

 

[Brother Mike]

Blessings Peace Keeper!!!

Glory to God Peace Keeper. Thank you for taking the time to respond brother!!!

The Money issue is big for me, not because I Love money, it's just a tool, but because the Body of Christ needs to change their view on it.

You and I Brother have grown up and seen what evil and selfish Things people have done for money. Kill their own spouse to get insurance, or avoid a divorce where one gets half of everything. The list goes on, and the sinful lavish life styles is the only thing we ever see on the rich and famous. As a Christian, who wants that??

Even the Bible says over and over the Wisdom of God if far better than choice silver or Gold.

So whats the fuss? would you be kind enough to read a few of these?

Expectation of Reward!!!
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.


1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

It's just acceptable. No reward here, but patience and endurance is expected out of us.

A servant which we are brother are no better than any other servant. Our work in the Lord is not rewarded any more great than any other servant of God. We have no special entitlement.

When God asked me to move to Branson, MO I obeyed, packed up, and came to this town with 230.00. No place to live, did not know anyone. He told me to go, and I just packed my family and came.

That is a pretty big step of faith compared to what most Christians would ever consider. I walk by faith, life my life by faith.

I slept on a hotel room floor, and wife and 2 kids had the single bed. It's all we could afford. I had no idea where food was going to come from or how we were going to have a place to sleep after a few days.

In my thinking, since I took that big step of faith for God, that those in the Church would just recognize my great faith. I thought God would be so impressed that things would just pour into our hands. I felt entitled !!!

I was in for a wake up call Brother. We found family after family that just packed up, and lived in hotels, believing God day by day to just come to Branson to attend Church. Not just our Church also.

I come to find out, I was not special at all, I just never been around people that would obey God to that extreme, I thought I had great faith, when in fact, I found that I was one of many who just obey God, and did as expected.


The Reward:

As servants though, we do get paid. Going above and beyond the call of duty is expected though.

Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

We don't like that word Patience, and we don't like the word endured.
It must not be all roses with chunks of blessings falling from the sky without us doing as expected. Servants do get paid though.

What to believe and expect:

2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

When we sin, break the law, God is not mocked. We have a bad harvest on the way. We just can't live any way we want and expect things to go well.

Just the opposite is true if we sow money into the Kingdom, do as we are suppose to. What we sow, gets multiplied back. we need to believe on those scriptures also. We just don't give, and expect nothing. That is mocking God, it's not faith.

That amount that continues to get multiplied back does not have a cap to it. You keep obeying and sowing, it keeps getting multiplied back more and more.

We need to operate in Wealth as God told us. We are told to give, we are told to bless. The World system tells us to steal, lie and cheat someone out of theirs. The World says Hoard it up, keep it for yourself.

We make our living by Giving and receiving, our source is God, not our Job, or this worlds broken system. Someone obtaining wealth in this way will learn in the process that money is just a tool, and will learn to give it all if asked, knowing God is faithful to continue to supply back.

It's not about hording or keeping, it's about being a source God can trust.

My Pastor my have a Jet (21 Million) He may have two nice homes, but hardly any time to enjoy any of it. His Jet gets him from speaking engagement to speaking engagement being well rested, and lots of time in prayer. Commercial flights you can't do that.

What is not known is my Pastor Gave away his first plane to another ministry. The Lord asked for the plane, and my Pastor gave it. He had to fly commercial, and keep a hectic schedule. He gives what comes in, and had no money to even get a new car, he had to believe God for another plane.

Now if you sow Airplanes, and each seed produces after it's own kind, what do you expect back?

Airplanes!!!

It's a whole new level of sowing into the Kingdom. Something we should consider.

One the outside one may Judge, but whom much is given, much is required.

Our Church was directed to buy a 3 million dollar boat for the south, this boat goes from Island to Island to preach the word to those that have never heard the gospel. Lots of Islands in the south pacific, some do not even have a air field.

Children's home. The Lord asked to pay for a whole ministry and Children's home in another country. That was a expensive project.

My Pastor use to sell his CD's and make lots of money. The Lord told him to sow them for free, ship them around the globe when requested.
To print your own, and ship them free cost thousands a week. 50,000.00 or more a week.

So PeaceKeeper, if a person is willing to obey God, Put God first, there is a prosperity system in place.

God is not handing us this wealth to lavish up life. The Power to get wealth is to establish his Kingdom!!! You may get nice things along that journey, but if doing the will of the Lord, you won't have much time to enjoy it, and certainly know you may be asked to give it all at a moments notice. After all, God would not have got you in that position had you been money minded or selfish in any way.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Peace Seeker]

Glory to God Peace Keeper. Thank you for taking the time to respond brother!!!

The Money issue is big for me, not because I Love money, it's just a tool, but because the Body of Christ needs to change their view on it.

You and I Brother have grown up and seen what evil and selfish Things people have done for money. Kill their own spouse to get insurance, or avoid a divorce where one gets half of everything. The list goes on, and the sinful lavish life styles is the only thing we ever see on the rich and famous. As a Christian, who wants that??
Even the Bible says over and over the Wisdom of God if far better than choice silver or Gold.

Hi Brother Mike!

Wow, you wrote a lot but rest assured I have read everything and much of it clarified your views for me. So thank you for that! I am glad to see that you recognize the power for evil that wealth has, and
maybe what we differ on is whether or not it has that same power over Christians. I say it does (unless, as you said, we don't hoard it up but instead use it to bless others).
But then again, I think it would be the rare person that would be able to rise above the incredible pull and temptation of money. And I think that would hold true all the more where someone never was poor and never learned to appreciate things or to be content.

We must continually guard our hearts against the deceitfulness of riches! Satan whispers into our ears how much good we can do for God if we only had some money!

I am also thinking that we can't play with fire and not get burned. Money has the potential to be just like the drug the junkie puts in his vein. The more you have, the more you want. The more you have, the more you need. And that's the spirit behind wealth that I often see in someone that has so much.

I know lots of Christians that make way more money than I do but they are somehow always broke, whereas I never lack for anything. And in one friend's case he rarely fails to remind everyone how financially tight his situation is. And I'm thinking to myself, "why do it if it is so stressful to you"? Why doesn't he just simplify??? Nobody told him to buy 3 houses and a boat and summer cabin, etc. No one told him he had to have the rare model Mercedes. And God doesn't want us to have a burdensome life, far from it!! So why do we burden ourselves and whom are we doing it for, ourselves or God?

And I am wondering how many cases God has told someone he needs to buy a private jet. There is a real danger in thinking that just because we want it, or feel that we need it, that it automatically means God must want us to to.

If God makes someone incredibly rich, great! I just hope as Christians we don't be too preoccupied with money or the thought of being blessed with it, as if God needs us to think about it in order for Him to give it to us. I'd prefer to never think of it at all and just get on with the things I need to get on with.

Matthew 10:10
nor pack for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves; for the workman is worthy of his meat.

This to me is saying, yes, the workman is worthy of his meat (which you have stressed on several occasions and I agree totally with), but it certainly isn't suggesting that he should have luxury and comfort when he goes about doing the business of the kingdom. Worthy of his meat doesn't mean worthy to dine in the best restaurants and be a member of the country club and have a fancy jet. It simply means your needs should and will be taken care of.

You know what interests me about the disciples, and I think may have some context to this whole discussion? When we see them discussing receiving blessings and power and things like that, they always thought in terms of the heavenly.
None of them murmured among themselves about who would have the nicest clothes and biggest house; they instead thought in terms of who would get to sit beside Jesus in heaven.....who would be greatest, etc. To me that is telling! They wanted spiritual blessings. Only Judas was concerned with money!

Jesus could have snapped His fingers and poof! A billion dollars at their feet and say, "go advance the kingdom". They had to walk everywhere they went, yet Jesus could have easily given them a few horses to help them get from city to city, and enable them to be well-rested so they could preach more effectively, or whatever. (re: the private jet scenario). But I sincerely doubt they ever thought of asking Jesus to do such a thing for them, and no doubt because they knew better.

Where there is wealth there are commitments; where there are commitments there are stresses and worries; where there are stresses and worries we are no longer focused on God but on our situation. And I am sure in many cases we bring all of this stuff on ourselves unnecessarily. God doesn't base our works on how much we do, but on how faithfully we do it, and on our motivations, etc.

So I don't agree with those churches that appear to be endlessly-driven to keep expanding - grow, grow, grow - taking on more and more responsibilities, as if somehow God always looks at things the same way as we do. Like a bigger church is better. Maybe I'm getting off track here, so I'll get back to some of your points.

On your point about money simply being a tool, I agree (at least it should be thought of that way), but it can also be a weapon. He who has the money makes the rules, not serves others. It is our heart that matters, not money; because no matter how much we have, if we have a disdainful attitude that "poor people should just get a job", our money will not be used to help the poor. It may instead be used on more vainglorious things.

I am sure most of the Christians that got rich believed money could never corrupt them, but such a statement in and of itself is pride, and as we all know from scripture, pride goeth before the fall.......

So whats the fuss? would you be kind enough to read a few of these?

Sure will!

Expectation of Reward!!!
Luk 17:8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
Luk 17:9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.

1Pe 2:20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

It's just acceptable. No reward here, but patience and endurance is expected out of us.

A servant which we are brother are no better than any other servant. Our work in the Lord is not rewarded any more great than any other servant of God. We have no special entitlement.

I agree with everything said here, especially the bold letters. :wink:
God forbid we ever feel entitled to anything, no matter how faithful we are, how spiritual we think we are, how many things we do for the Lord, etc. Before God in His mercy chose to save us, we were less than dirt in His eyes, so that hardly makes us special or entitled to anything. And now that He has made us clean, it only entitles us, as heirs to the kingdom, to be servants, even though we are royalty in His eyes. Who is more royal than King Jesus? Yet he washed the disciples' feet.

In my thinking, since I took that big step of faith for God, that those in the Church would just recognize my great faith. I thought God would be so impressed that things would just pour into our hands. I felt entitled !!!

I was in for a wake up call Brother. We found family after family that just packed up, and lived in hotels, believing God day by day to just come to Branson to attend Church. Not just our Church also.

I come to find out, I was not special at all, I just never been around people that would obey God to that extreme, I thought I had great faith, when in fact, I found that I was one of many who just obey God, and did as expected.

Wow, this was well-said brother! I should have read this part before I went into my little spiel about how we're not special. It really is humbling (in a good way) to come to a proper perspective.

The Reward:

As servants though, we do get paid. Going above and beyond the call of duty is expected though.

Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Is this promise to Abraham, or to all of us and for all time?

What to believe and expect:

2Co 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Absolutely! By abiding in Christ we cannot help but become fruitful. And yes, we sow and we reap, but maybe what we reap is in the next life, not always in this life? God knows.

When we sin, break the law, God is not mocked. We have a bad harvest on the way. We just can't live any way we want and expect things to go well.

While I agree with the sentiment here and I understand what you mean, I disagree somewhat that if we are sinning we will have a bad harvest. I'm thinking of Job's situation. And it would not be edifying or uplifting to a fellow (faithful) believer to insinuate that he isn't rich like you because he is doing something wrong.

The first will be last, and the last first in the kingdom; and the person that was poor but faithful and content in this life, will be no worse off in the next life than the one that was a wealthy mover and shaker. In fact he may turn out to be much better off.

Just the opposite is true if we sow money into the Kingdom, do as we are suppose to. What we sow, gets multiplied back. we need to believe on those scriptures also. We just don't give, and expect nothing. That is mocking God, it's not faith.

I am a bit confused here, because earlier you said we have no special entitlement. So if Jesus says for us to go feed and clothe the poor, visit widows and prisoners, etc., should we or should we not expect a reward for doing so? Is doing those things our Christian duty, or is it a special work that we do for God, one that entitles us to gifts?

I think we should gratefully accept whatever God chooses to bless us with - if He does - because there is joy in giving, but I'm thinking for a minute about this word, "expectation" again.
Here's what I've come up with, thinking out loud here. Who is the spoiled kid, the one who expects the presents, or the one that hopes for them? To me there is a difference between the 2 words. If I don't expect that new bike at all, I will be ecstatic if I get it; whereas if I do expect that bike, I may be much less thankful. So which case is mocking God?

That amount that continues to get multiplied back does not have a cap to it. You keep obeying and sowing, it keeps getting multiplied back more and more.

I don't mean to sound flippant here, but to me that doesn't sound like gifts so much as a paycheck from God. If it's a gift, it is humbling, if it is a paycheck, one might think, "wow, I must be doing something right!"........ then here we go again - BAM! pride has crept in.

We need to operate in Wealth as God told us. We are told to give, we are told to bless. The World system tells us to steal, lie and cheat someone out of theirs. The World says Hoard it up, keep it for yourself.

We make our living by Giving and receiving, our source is God, not our Job, or this worlds broken system. Someone obtaining wealth in this way will learn in the process that money is just a tool, and will learn to give it all if asked, knowing God is faithful to continue to supply back.

Wealth has nothing to do with amount, but with the heart. The little old lady in Jesus' parable gave it all, without being rich.

Luke 21:1-4

The Widow’s Offering

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-25828">1</sup> As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-25829">2</sup> He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-25830">3</sup> “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-25831">4</sup> All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

My Pastor my have a Jet (21 Million) He may have two nice homes, but hardly any time to enjoy any of it. His Jet gets him from speaking engagement to speaking engagement being well rested, and lots of time in prayer. Commercial flights you can't do that.

What is not known is my Pastor Gave away his first plane to another ministry. The Lord asked for the plane, and my Pastor gave it. He had to fly commercial, and keep a hectic schedule. He gives what comes in, and had no money to even get a new car, he had to believe God for another plane.

Now if you sow Airplanes, and each seed produces after it's own kind, what do you expect back?

Airplanes!!!

You really have a thing for airplanes! Kidding brother!

If the pastor has a bunch of stuff that he has no time to enjoy, then why have it? As a status symbol? Because he couldn't possibly think of some more appropriate things to spend his money on?
It's like these people that have so many homes that some of them sit empty 95% of the time. That would be a waste of God's blessings for a Christian to be in that situation, IMHO.

It's a whole new level of sowing into the Kingdom. Something we should consider.

I am considering it, but I am not convinced it is a valid mindset for me to have at this time. If it works for you, that's great! If God wants to shower me with material blessings, I don't need to be thinking about money in order for Him to give it to me.

One the outside one may Judge, but whom much is given, much is required.

Absolutely. Hence my point about the houses sitting empty (and yours about the pastor not having any time to use the things God has given him) - I would imagine God would expect better stewardship from us if we were given that much.

Our Church was directed to buy a 3 million dollar boat for the south, this boat goes from Island to Island to preach the word to those that have never heard the gospel. Lots of Islands in the south pacific, some do not even have a air field.

If God put that on a church's heart I have no problem with that. I do have a problem if it is a fancy boat with a hot tub on the deck though. Regardless of how much the pastor might reason that it would help his sore, tired muscles from all the traveling he has done.

Jesus said:

Luke 9:58 “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”


So I think we need to be careful about how well we think we are entitled to live, and instead concentrate on how well we live towards the Lord.

My Pastor use to sell his CD's and make lots of money. The Lord told him to sow them for free, ship them around the globe when requested.
To print your own, and ship them free cost thousands a week. 50,000.00 or more a week.

That's more like it. Make the act of giving the core tenet, not the making of money. Selling a sermon is not obeying Jesus' command : "freely you have been given, freely give".

So PeaceKeeper, if a person is willing to obey God, Put God first, there is a prosperity system in place.

One way or another we are all blessed by God, and sometimes we don't even notice it, especially if we're not looking in the right place. The key is as you have said, obeying God. God will never do us wrong if we do that. If God wants to make me rich, great! If not, great!

Would you be upset if God didn't financially bless you, after you did something tirelessly for Him? Or would you just assume that he has something else in mind for you?

God is not handing us this wealth to lavish up life. The Power to get wealth is to establish his Kingdom!!! You may get nice things along that journey, but if doing the will of the Lord, you won't have much time to enjoy it, and certainly know you may be asked to give it all at a moments notice. After all, God would not have got you in that position had you been money minded or selfish in any way.

I am sorry if I sound flippant again, but I don't see how my owning 3 houses and living in luxury is going to advance His kingdom. And regarding your last statement, you make a good point, that God (probably?) wouldn't let a selfish person come in to wealth. Then again, my wife owns a business that is doing pretty good, but her competitor (a Christian woman) has 12 of the same business and is very rich from it, and ruthless and selfish in her business dealings. She would put my wife out of business in the blink of an eye, without a second thought. In fact she has done it to many others.

My wife sometimes laments why her business doesn't have 12 franchises like that other person. And the answer is not that my wife isn't as good a Christian as the other woman, or that the other woman plants more and better seeds than my wife, or because my wife doesn't subscribe to a prosperity gospel. The answer is that the other woman is a power-hungry member on the board of a very large church and has many community connections that she uses to her advantage.

So IMO this woman is definitely a case of what can go wrong when a Christian has too much and thinks it is okay to.

Thanks for all the stimulating ideas you put forth, I may disagree on some points, but to me that is not the same as dismissing them. Here's a few scriptures I came across about money :

Psalm 37:16
Better the little that the righteous have than the wealth of many wicked

Ecclesiastes 6:9
Better is the sight of the eyes than the wandering of the desire. This is also vanity and vexation of spirit.

1 Timothy 6:6-11
6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your manner of living be without covetousness, and be content with such things as ye have.
For He hath said, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee"

There are more, but I don't want to go overboard.

Cheers, brother!

P.S. - In case I don't do another long reply, it's 'cause my fingers are numb and need to recover from all the typing! And I'm bug-eyed from staring at the screen for so long!