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Looking Deeper at JOHN 3:16

Member
Let me first translate John 3:16 to what most christian's of this era think it is saying -

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,
that whosover believes in him, should not go to eternal damnation,
but gets to go to heaven when they physically die".
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Let me first translate John 3:16 to what most christian's of this era think it is saying -

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,
that whosover believes in him, should not go to eternal damnation,
but gets to go to heaven when they physically die".
Dear Primordial Light,
So, you're speaking for most Christians? :)
Never a good idea to speak for others. Let them speak for themselves and their actions, faith.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
 
Active
Let me first translate John 3:16 to what most christian's of this era think it is saying -

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,
that whosover believes in him, should not go to eternal damnation,
but gets to go to heaven when they physically die".
I'm with 'most Christians' on this one.

God was there 'watching helplessly' millions of poor souls pay the price of their poor choice, heart breaking. 'Watching helplessly' until that is, His son Jesus cut a huge gaping hole in the inevitability of eternal death. But first Jesus had to pay that same price Himself; he was holy, pure, no sin but for our sakes - my sake - he had to die a dreadful death and share the same fate, and then overcome it and break free with the resurrection. Now death is no longer inevitable, thanks to Jesus, there is an escape route that leads to a Heaven that is so wonderful and amazing, we can't even begin to imagine what it's like!!

Thank you God. Thank you, thank you, thank you Jesus!! Amen.
 
Member
I'm with 'most Christians' on this one.

God was there 'watching helplessly' millions of poor souls pay the price of their poor choice, heart breaking. 'Watching helplessly' until that is, His son Jesus cut a huge gaping hole in the inevitability of eternal death. But first Jesus had to pay that same price Himself; he was holy, pure, no sin but for our sakes - my sake - he had to die a dreadful death and share the same fate, and then overcome it and break free with the resurrection. Now death is no longer inevitable, thanks to Jesus, there is an escape route that leads to a Heaven that is so wonderful and amazing, we can't even begin to imagine what it's like!!

Thank you God. Thank you, thank you, thank you Jesus!! Amen.
Salvation is only for Israel. But now God takes believers from the whole world and adds them to Israel. But he also removed the unbelievers from Israel leaving only believing Jews and Gentiles alike. Jesus rules over Israel, his church, and his body, that all believers are part of.
 
Member
Salvation is only for Israel. But now God takes believers from the whole world and adds them to Israel. But he also removed the unbelievers from Israel leaving only believing Jews and Gentiles alike. Jesus rules over Israel, his church, and his body, that all believers are part of.
So do you mean the Church the Body of Christ is Israel?
 
Member
So do you mean the Church the Body of Christ is Israel?
Yes. Jesus says he is the true vine. And Paul says in Romans 11 God removed the unbelievers, grafting believing gentiles into their place. He did this when he abolished circumcision, the rite that made one a physical Jew, or physical Israelite, on the cross.
 
Member
Dear Primordial Light,
So, you're speaking for most Christians? :)
Never a good idea to speak for others. Let them speak for themselves and their actions, faith.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Struck a nerve on this one didn't I? Because it is how most christians have been taught and believe.

I wonder if anyone will ask me of my translation and interpretation of John 3:16 based from the greek.

I've not seen that yet
 
Member
I'm with 'most Christians' on this one.

God was there 'watching helplessly' millions of poor souls pay the price of their poor choice, heart breaking. 'Watching helplessly' until that is, His son Jesus cut a huge gaping hole in the inevitability of eternal death. But first Jesus had to pay that same price Himself; he was holy, pure, no sin but for our sakes - my sake - he had to die a dreadful death and share the same fate, and then overcome it and break free with the resurrection. Now death is no longer inevitable, thanks to Jesus, there is an escape route that leads to a Heaven that is so wonderful and amazing, we can't even begin to imagine what it's like!!

Thank you God. Thank you, thank you, thank you Jesus!! Amen.
@Christ4Ever Here is someone speaking for 'Most Christians'.

Dare he be questioned?

"Eternal Death" - Hmm where is that in the Bible?
Are the wages of sin "Eternal Death"? If so, did Jesus pay the price for our sins?
 
Member
Yes. Jesus says he is the true vine. And Paul says in Romans 11 God removed the unbelievers, grafting believing gentiles into their place. He did this when he abolished circumcision, the rite that made one a physical Jew, or physical Israelite, on the cross.
I agree.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Struck a nerve on this one didn't I? Because it is how most christians have been taught and believe.

I wonder if anyone will ask me of my translation and interpretation of John 3:16 based from the greek.

I've not seen that yet
Dear Brother,
Nope, no nerve struck here, at least not in the way you think :)

I'm more concerned with how we treat each other. Most Christians may have been taught the doctrine you've been going back and forth on in a different thread, but playing with the Word as you did here with those who are your brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus to make a point is just plain wrong. Whether I agree with the doctrine or not, is irrelevant, to what you are knowingly doing to make your point.

I would place an exception to your actions if a persons Salvation was in doubt, but we both know it is not. At least not on the basis of this particular doctrine. Guide and teach, and instruct constructively. If they don't want to hear it or change, then just move on. Pray for them, and best to leave it at that.

@Christ4Ever Here is someone speaking for 'Most Christians'.

Dare he be questioned?

"Eternal Death" - Hmm where is that in the Bible?
Are the wages of sin "Eternal Death"? If so, did Jesus pay the price for our sins?
Of course a person should be questioned, but remember you're the one who put the bait out there for them to do so. So, the onus is especially on you to be civil, and as I said before constructive.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
 
Member
Let me first translate John 3:16 to what most christian's of this era think it is saying -

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,
that whosover believes in him, should not go to eternal damnation,
but gets to go to heaven when they physically die".
@Christ4Ever Your response as a moderator has been fair. Though I question your comment that I am "playing with the word".
The above 'translation' of John 3:16 is merely to show how most people, or shall I say many christian's believe.
If I am wrong, please share with me how you interpret the second part of John 3:16.

I have not yet shared my translation from the greek or my interpretation yet.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
@Christ4Ever Your response as a moderator has been fair. Though I question your comment that I am "playing with the word".
The above 'translation' of John 3:16 is merely to show how most people, or shall I say many christian's believe.
If I am wrong, please share with me how you interpret the second part of John 3:16.

I have not yet shared my translation from the greek or my interpretation yet.
Dear Brother,
Actually, you did interpret John 3:16 in your initial post. Instead of showing how it actually reads. You decided to show it as you believe others view it as being. If I were to do that, wouldn't you say I was playing with the Word of God?

Just so you know. What really is bothersome (a little :) ), is when a singular verse is used to prove a point of doctrine that can cover almost the entirety of Scripture, and the person doing so, knows this, but will still persist in doing so. :rolleyes:

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><


So others might see what some of the different translations/versions are for John 3:16.

KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
© Info
NKJV
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
© Info
NLT
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
ESV
“For God so loved the world,[fn] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
NIV
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
CSB
“For God loved the world in this way:[fn] He gave[fn] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
RVR60
Porque de tal manera amó Dios al mundo, que ha dado a su Hijo unigénito, para que todo aquel que en él cree, no se pierda, mas tenga vida eterna.
© Info
NASB
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His [fn]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
© Info
NET
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
RSV
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
ASV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
© Info
YLT
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
© Info
DBY
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
© Info
WEB
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
© Info
HNV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
© Info
VUL
sic enim dilexit Deus mundum ut Filium suum unigenitum daret ut omnis qui credit in eum non pereat sed habeat vitam aeternam
© Info
MGNT
οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον
© Info
TR
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον
© Info

Note: the "Info" is noted for the purposes of identifying the following:

Textus Receptus (TR)
The Textus Receptus (latin, "Received Text") is the Greek text originally compiled by Erasmus around 1516. Though the earliest work was prepared by Desiderius Erasmus, his work was later revised by Robert Estienne (or, Stephanus) and further revised by Theodore Beza. The text produced by each is substantially the same, aside from some minor variations. The Blue Letter Bible utilizes Stephanus' edition from 1550.
This version of the Bible is in the public domain.
 
Active
@Christ4Ever


"Eternal Death" - Hmm where is that in the Bible?

Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:45‭-‬46

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, II Thessalonians 1:8‭-‬9

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10
 
Member
Dear Brother,
Actually, you did interpret John 3:16 in your initial post. Instead of showing how it actually reads. You decided to show it as you believe others view it as being. If I were to do that, wouldn't you say I was playing with the Word of God?

Just so you know. What really is bothersome (a little :) ), is when a singular verse is used to prove a point of doctrine that can cover almost the entirety of Scripture, and the person doing so, knows this, but will still persist in doing so. :rolleyes:

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><


So others might see what some of the different translations/versions are for John 3:16.

KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
© Info
NKJV
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
© Info
NLT
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
ESV
“For God so loved the world,[fn] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
NIV
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
CSB
“For God loved the world in this way:[fn] He gave[fn] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
RVR60
Porque de tal manera amó Dios al mundo, que ha dado a su Hijo unigénito, para que todo aquel que en él cree, no se pierda, mas tenga vida eterna.
© Info
NASB
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His [fn]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
© Info
NET
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
RSV
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
© Info
ASV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
© Info
YLT
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
© Info
DBY
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.
© Info
WEB
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.
© Info
HNV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
© Info
VUL
sic enim dilexit Deus mundum ut Filium suum unigenitum daret ut omnis qui credit in eum non pereat sed habeat vitam aeternam
© Info
MGNT
οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον
© Info
TR
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον
© Info

Note: the "Info" is noted for the purposes of identifying the following:

Textus Receptus (TR)
The Textus Receptus (latin, "Received Text") is the Greek text originally compiled by Erasmus around 1516. Though the earliest work was prepared by Desiderius Erasmus, his work was later revised by Robert Estienne (or, Stephanus) and further revised by Theodore Beza. The text produced by each is substantially the same, aside from some minor variations. The Blue Letter Bible utilizes Stephanus' edition from 1550.
This version of the Bible is in the public domain.
In Mark 4:38 when it was storming and the disciples did not want to "perish" - do you think they feared 'eternal damnation'? Nope - they feared death. The same greek work in John 3:16 is the same as Mark 4:38.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
In Mark 4:38 when it was storming and the disciples did not want to "perish" - do you think they feared 'eternal damnation'? Nope - they feared death. The same greek work in John 3:16 is the same as Mark 4:38.
Dear Brother,
You have missed my point, or have decided to ignore it. Which ever is the case, know that my responses to you had nothing to do with either side of the subject you have desired to have this debate on. Just the methodology used in doing so.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
 
Active
Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:45‭-‬46

in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, II Thessalonians 1:8‭-‬9

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10
Hi Andy, If you look at the thread on Annihilationism there's a rather lengthy discussion of the word aion which is translated as everlasting in the verses you've posted here. I think there is a strong argument that it doesn't mean everlasting.
 
Active
Hi Butch,

When the OP recounted one of my favourite verses of the Bible i just wanted to respond with praise and adoration to God for His limitless love and willingness to pay the ultimate price so that I don't have to pay the price for my stupidity. I happened to mention the word eternal and I got pulled up and was asked to justify it, which I did.

I note that you think this word is a mistranslation. Can I recommend to you an app called YouVersion? It's the Bible on your smartphone or tablet. Better than that, it's 30-40 translations of the Bible, it's amazing. Unless you're a vicar or a pastor you're not going to have 30-40 Bible translations on your bookshelf; well you have now.

I looked up Matthew 25:46 in about a dozen different versions and every one uses that word eternal.

I really don't feel comfortable when preachers start ripping the Bible up, dismissing it as a bad translation and sorry to be blunt but I don't get much from deep theo discussions that in essence are 'dancing on the head of a pin' so generally if a group calls itself an ism, count me out! My eyes start to glaze over. My own view is that not only is the Bible God's inspired word, so are the translations.

Back to your point. Revelation talks of a second death and that death isn't a 'that's it, you're finished, you no longer exist', no, it's worse than that, it's forever without God. A million times worse.

Revelation 20:10 the beast, false prophet and Satan get chucked into the fire and that lasts forever. Well no one's going to shed a tear for them three. Then read Revelation 20:13-15. They're joined by anyone who's not in Heaven and it's that that terrifies me. That would be me had I not accepted Jesus's rescue. Just as bad, it's very much the impending fate of many of my close family, friends, colleagues etc. if they don't get their act together and follow Jesus.
 
Active
Hi Butch,

When the OP recounted one of my favourite verses of the Bible i just wanted to respond with praise and adoration to God for His limitless love and willingness to pay the ultimate price so that I don't have to pay the price for my stupidity. I happened to mention the word eternal and I got pulled up and was asked to justify it, which I did.

I note that you think this word is a mistranslation. Can I recommend to you an app called YouVersion? It's the Bible on your smartphone or tablet. Better than that, it's 30-40 translations of the Bible, it's amazing. Unless you're a vicar or a pastor you're not going to have 30-40 Bible translations on your bookshelf; well you have now.

I looked up Matthew 25:46 in about a dozen different versions and every one uses that word eternal.

I really don't feel comfortable when preachers start ripping the Bible up, dismissing it as a bad translation and sorry to be blunt but I don't get much from deep theo discussions that in essence are 'dancing on the head of a pin' so generally if a group calls itself an ism, count me out! My eyes start to glaze over. My own view is that not only is the Bible God's inspired word, so are the translations.

Back to your point. Revelation talks of a second death and that death isn't a 'that's it, you're finished, you no longer exist', no, it's worse than that, it's forever without God. A million times worse.

Revelation 20:10 the beast, false prophet and Satan get chucked into the fire and that lasts forever. Well no one's going to shed a tear for them three. Then read Revelation 20:13-15. They're joined by anyone who's not in Heaven and it's that that terrifies me. That would be me had I not accepted Jesus's rescue. Just as bad, it's very much the impending fate of many of my close family, friends, colleagues etc. if they don't get their act together and follow Jesus.
Hi Andy, actually, I have about 60 English, 50 Greek, 20 Hebrew, and a few Syriac translations at my finger tips. You are correct that most use the word eternal there. However, that many use this word doesn't necessitate that it's correct. After all, look how many Christians believe in the Trinity, yet we find no such teaching in the Scriptures. Look at how many believe that Christians go to Heaven when they die, again, there is no such teaching in Scripture. So, just because a lot of people believe something doesn't necessitate that it's true. I think what's more important is how the Scriptures use the word. I would ask you, how do you reconcile the translators translation of eternal when Jesus said the aion would end?

Let just look at the passage at hand. What is the contrast that Jesus laid out? Is it not aionios life or perish?

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:14-16 KJV)


In veres 15 and 16 Jesus twice lays out this contrast, aionios life or perish. You mentioned Mat. 25:46.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matt. 25:46 KJV)

If this passage is talking about eternal conscious torment in fire we have a problem. How could Jesus mean two different things as the same punishment? Do they Perish or do they suffer eternal conscious torment?
 
Active
Revelation 20:10 the beast, false prophet and Satan get chucked into the fire and that lasts forever. Well no one's going to shed a tear for them three. Then read Revelation 20:13-15. They're joined by anyone who's not in Heaven and it's that that terrifies me. That would be me had I not accepted Jesus's rescue. Just as bad, it's very much the impending fate of many of my close family, friends, colleagues etc. if they don't get their act together and follow Jesus.
You do not know terror.

Your family, your friends, your colleagues, is not your separation from them the very severance of life which is hell?
 

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