Lifting Up Jesus

[B-A-C]

There are some people, who say God has already decided who will get saved and who won't get saved. A common verse is...
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

These two verses seem to contradict, but of course many believe we are all called (drawn) by God.
The problem with the fatalist view that we can not change who God wants to be saved, is that there becomes no need for evangelism or prayer.
Why pray for someone's salvation? If God already decided they are going to be saved, they will be whether you pray or not.
If God has already decided someone isn't going to be saved, all the praying in the world won't get them saved.
This seems to be a contradiction of the Bible as well.

Jesus said...
John 12:32; "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

The great commission he gave us was...
Mark 16:15; And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Rom 10:13; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14; How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about Him without a preacher?
Rom 10:15; How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16; However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17; So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Indeed if God has already decided everything, why pray at all about anything?
Some say praying brings our thinking more in alinement with his,perhaps it does. But wouldn't even this already be pre-ordained?
Doesn't God decide who will be in alignment and who won't?

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
The verse above doesn't say God wishes for "some of" or "part of" of the people to come to repentance, it says ALL.
It doesn't say he wishes for "a few" to not perish, it says he doesn't want ANY to perish.

 

[james1523]

God has desires, but He often acts in contradiction to those desires to accomplish His purpose.
For example, my purpose is to keep my current car. I desire that my car would last 100 years, I love it. But I know my car will only last 10 years and so I make preparations to buy a new one.
God's purpose is to have many sons. He desires that all would be His sons, that none would perish. But He knows that only some will be His sons, and so He only prepares for the few that will accept Him.
We could say God is both idealistic and yet pragmatic.

"Why pray for someone's salvation? If God already decided they are going to be saved, they will be whether you pray or not."

We pray for everyone's salvation because we don't know who is to be saved and who isn't. But if we don't pray, no one will be saved.

"If God has already decided someone isn't going to be saved, all the praying in the world won't get them saved."
That's exactly right. Has everyone you've prayed for to be saved been saved? It's the same with healing or anything, it depends on God's will.

From God's point of view in eternity and outside of time, there is only a defined number of ones who will be saved. He already knows who they are.
Whose fault if they are not saved? Theirs, their parents, their grandparents, satan's, the person that didn't share the gospel with them, ultimately.
From our point of view in time, there is no defined number, any number may be saved.

God's will is already predetermined. He knows the exact number who will be saved.
"I go to prepare a place for you" - is very specific language.
God has a place prepared for each of us
When everyone is saved, there will be no empty seats in heaven. There will be no empty seats at the wedding feast of the Lamb.


You said: "Indeed if God has already decided everything, why pray at all about anything?
Some say praying brings our thinking more in alinement with his,perhaps it does. But wouldn't even this already be pre-ordained?
Doesn't God decide who will be in alignment and who won't?"

But He needs us to pray so that He can carry it out, for His will to be done. This is why we need to pray. His will is determined, but He uses us to carry it out.

Yes to be in alignment with God is preordained: Rom 8:29. Every single saved person He is conforming to the image of the Son to accomplish His purpose of having many sons (Heb 2:10).
Our prayer only accelerates this process. If we don't pray regularly and often, we will still be conformed to the Son, but more slowly over time, and eventually after we die. But if we never pray, we will never be conformed to the image of the Son in this life. But God has some interesting ways to do it in the next life. Catholics call this purgatory, but it's something like that, it's in the bible and the non-canonical writings. That is, even without our regular praying, it is the Holy Spirit living inside of us that causes us to grow, we are always growing, even if we don't know it.

If God sends someone to hell and doesn't want them there, then He is a powerless God.
Everyone who is in hell God wants there, and everyone who is in heaven God wants there.
He wants them there because of their choice, not His (general) desire.
But it is His (specific) desire that one goes to hell or the other goes to heaven.
It is both God's will, and not God's will at the same time.

 

[B-A-C]

We pray for everyone's salvation because we don't know who is to be saved and who isn't. But if we don't pray, no one will be saved.

So we really do have control over what God does?

"I go to prepare a place for you" - is very specific language.
God has a place prepared for each of us
When everyone is saved, there will be no empty seats in heaven. There will be no empty seats at the wedding feast of the Lamb.

He prepared the earth for man. He prepared Canaan for Israel. I don't recall him saying there will be an exact number.
In fact I see, that he changes His plans.
Matt 22:3; "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.
Matt 22:4; "Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast."'
Matt 22:8; "Then he *said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
Matt 22:9; 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'

I don't think it mattered if they had a seat, he just puts out more chairs.

If God sends someone to hell and doesn't want them there, then He is a powerless God.
Everyone who is in hell God wants there, and everyone who is in heaven God wants there.

Or else he is just a God who lets people choose their own destiny.
Otherwise 2nd Peter 3:9 is a lie. My Bible says God cannot lie.

1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[james1523]

Scripture indicates that God reserves exact numbers of people for Himself:
Rom 11:4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

The Bible also clearly teaches He is actively involved in creation and the salvation process.

He not only knows, He is the one who is also doing.
Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.""