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Legalism

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Loyal
Legalism - It's a dirty word in some churches these days.
"Legal" comes from Law.
The Law came from God. In a sense you could say God is a legalist. ( Rom 7:12; Rom 7:16; 1 Tim 1:8; )
Even in the New Testament the Law still has to be fulfilled, the difference is... who fulfills it.
( Matt 5:17-18; Luke 16:17; )

Without the law, there are no rules. Anything goes.
Yes, we've had this discussion before, but it seems once a year or so it bares repeating.
The law is "mostly" just a set of rules. Rules from God. I say mostly because the law of the Old Testament
included all the things around the rules, animal sacrifices, priests, circumcision, stoning people, etc...
It wasn't just the rules, it was what should be done if someone breaks the rules.

Some churches like to say we aren't under the law anymore. A more accurate statement would be
we aren't under the penalty of the law anymore. There are still rules. Yes, if we break them there is
grace.... up to a point. It is possible to fall short of grace. ( Heb 12:15; )

As I said earlier, without "rules" (the law).. anything goes.
All rapists, wife beaters, child molesters, homosexuals, liars, idol worshipers, murderers, and Satanists
go to heaven. Whenever you make a statement like that... people come back and say no.. those people
won't go to heaven. OK then... there must be rules.

The classic Calvinist argument says, well if they were really saved, they wouldn't do those things... perhaps,
but if there are no rules, then what's wrong with doing those things? Without the law, how do we know
right from wrong?

The thing is... "anything" does NOT go. There are still rules. If you want to call someone (me) a legalist
for saying that... then so be it. But the difference between a legalist and grace is.
Both say the rules still apply. One says when you fall down there is grace, as long as you are trying.
The other says there is no grace (or at least very little) so you better be perfect.

This is a far cry from there are no rules at all (antimonianism).

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jas 1:14; But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Jas 1:15; Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Jas 1:16; Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
 
Loyal
bac you wrote with out law how do we know from right and wrong, I believe the bible answers that question for us

Hebrews 10:16
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”


Being obedient to the word of God is what all believers should strive for, we will all fall short of that, thank goodness for Grace.

So what is Grace that we can fall short of it?? Believers is who the Author of Hebrews 12-15 is addressing. so is it believers that walk away from living a obedient life for God. And turn to pleasures of this world sacrificing eternal treasures for short term pleasures.

the issue with the word rule I think becomes legalism in it self, rule is something we have to do. I think the term obedience is a much better description for believers, because we want to do it. Yet it has nothing to do with salvation because there is nothing we can do to earn it, because we are not good enough.

It just clicks better for me when I use the word obedience instead of rules.

You do not seem to be a legalistic if you know that we will fall short and are saved by grace, anyone who would call you a legalistic would be wrong.
 
Active
"..the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient..and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine." (1 Timothy 1:9-10)
"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." (Hebrews 7:19)
"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2)
"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith...Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." (Galatians 3:10-13)
"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come.." (Galatians 3:18-19)
"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." (Galatians 3:21-22)
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16)
"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God." (Galatians 2:19)
"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." (Galatians 2:21)
"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect." (Romans 4:13-14)
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:6-8)
"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." (Romans 7:14)
"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone." (Romans 9:30-32)
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." (Romans 10:4)
"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17)

Of course there is much that may be added, but by these basic points we should get the idea of what God is conveying to us by His Holy Spirit of Truth speaking through His servants.
 
Loyal
Hebrews 10:16
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
Even if it's on their hearts, it's still the law.

I think the term obedience is a much better description for believers, because we want to do it. Yet it has nothing to do with salvation because there is nothing we can do to earn it,
Yes but, obedience to what? To have obedience, you have to obey. What are we obeying? Can you give a specific example?
 
Loyal
"For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come.." (Galatians 3:18-19)
"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." (Galatians 3:21-22)
Exactly. Righteousness "should" have been under the law. But scripture has put us all under sin. What part of scripture?
The creation? No the law. Faith alone can't save you. (James 2:24; )

No we aren't saved by the law, it's a good thing because none of us can keep it 100% and if we break any of it, even just one part,
we have broken all of it. ( James 2:10; )

This is where grace comes in. Grace covers us where we fall short. This is why we need Jesus.
But again, even believing in Jesus alone wont save you.

Matt 7:21; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
Matt 7:23; And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

Now, while the law can't save you. "Practicing lawlessness" can keep you from being saved.
 
Loyal
1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1 Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Practicing... something you do over and over to get better at it. Some practice righteousness, and some practice lawlessness.
Lawlessness, would be the opposite of lawfulness. This doesn't mean we are perfect, if means we're practicing... one or the other.

John 8:34; Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin

Rom 6:15; What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
 
Loyal
*- BAC -* Yes but, obedience to what? To have obedience, you have to obey. What are we obeying? Can you give a specific example?


the will of the father in heaven is what we are to be obedient to.

Mark 3:35
For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother


1 Peter 2-15
For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
 
Loyal
I know one thing is if you follow Gods will you will unavoidably end up following some laws, but if you follow Laws instead of following Gods will you may miss Gods grace all together.
 
Loyal
I will write my law in their hearts....(paraphrased a bit) Our covenant with our God contains a code of conduct for us to live by...even our New Covenant.....We have to be legalistic about our love walk...lest we fall into worldly ways of doing things... So in the context that B-A-C writes.....I agree
 
Loyal
I will write my law in their hearts....(paraphrased a bit) Our covenant with our God contains a code of conduct for us to live by...even our New Covenant.....We have to be legalistic about our love walk...lest we fall into worldly ways of doing things... So in the context that B-A-C writes.....I agree
I think many people confuse legalism with obedience to God's commands, but they are not one and the same. Legalism is based in man-made rules and traditions of men that mainly involve ceremony, rituals and externals. Jesus often chided the Pharisees for being legalistic, and for not obeying God's commands. They held strictly to a set of man-made rules and traditions, based mainly in externals, but their hearts were far from God, and they did not obey his commands, in particularly to love God with all their hearts, etc., and to love their neighbors as themselves. They were egotistical, self-righteous leaders who abused their positions of authority over the people, and their hearts were full of wickedness.

The whole subject of law and grace can be very confusing. I get confused over it sometimes. Yet, Jesus did not die to set us free so that we wouldn't have to follow God's laws. No! In fact, the scriptures teach that we uphold the law as Christians. Peter said that Jesus died that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. Paul said that Jesus died that we might no longer live for ourselves, but for Jesus who gave his life up for us. There is much teaching in scripture that says that the way we show God we love him is by keeping (obeying) his commands, and that keeping his commands are a sign that we are truly Christ's disciples. Yet, this is not legalism. This is love!

So, I agree with what you said above, only I would change the word "legalistic" to passionate, dedicated, persistent, prudent, zealous, consistent, and the like. We need to follow our Lord and his ways with spiritual fervor, in other words.

John 14:23-24: “Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.”

1 John 2:3-6: “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 John 3:24: “Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.”

1 John 5:3: “This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome…”

2 John 1:6: “And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.”


 
Loyal
did the criminal that was hung next to Jesus follow any laws that you speak of other then believing in Christ, I do not believe so. This is a perfect example of only believing and receiving salvation.

I doubt he had any rewards waiting for him, but he had salvation based on belief alone no works no laws.
 
Loyal
did the criminal that was hung next to Jesus follow any laws that you speak of other then believing in Christ, I do not believe so. This is a perfect example of only believing and receiving salvation.
On the other hand, he didn't have much opportunity to sin after that either.
 
Loyal
On the other hand, he didn't have much opportunity to sin after that either.
Man does need opportunity to sin, he can merely think it and it is a sin, man is sin by nature, we are all sinners, the saved and the unsaved are sinners, so I do not understand your point. God Bless
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings,

I am astonished how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1Thessalonians 5:8-9

What law or legalism?
be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.


Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;

ye are fallen from grace.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision;

but faith which worketh by love.

Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

This persuasion cometh not of Him that calleth you.

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump
I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded:

but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

For, brethren,
ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

This I say then,
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit,

ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance:

against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Romans 13:8
Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal
I am astonished how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
If we can't lose our salvation, what difference does it make if we follow another gospel?

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
 
Loyal
Man does need opportunity to sin, he can merely think it and it is a sin, man is sin by nature, we are all sinners, the saved and the unsaved are sinners, so I do not understand your point. God Bless
Man does need opportunity to sin, he can merely think it and it is a sin, man is sin by nature, we are all sinners, the saved and the unsaved are sinners, so I do not understand your point. God Bless
Can you provide me with scripture that says that the born again man has a sinful nature? And, too, How can a born again man be the righteousness of God in the anointing, and be a sinner at the same time? Why does Jesus tell us not to take a thought by speaking it? If you do not speak a thought, it will die stillborn....A thought comes into your head, but it does not mean its your thought...If it does not line up with God's Word replace it unspoken with Word and you have NOT sinned.

My dear friend, if you want to call yourself a sinner, go for it...I call myself the righteousness of God in His anointing wherewith I am anointed...I am Not a sinner, I was but I got born again.
 
Loyal
Brother put your pride away, unless you can tell me that you have not sinned one time since you have been saved you are still a sinner. Just like me. WE no longer live in sin, but make no mistake its only by Gods Grace we receive salvation, we are still sinners we just dont live in sin any longer. Jesus is who saves us from ourselves

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.



Only Jesus lived a sinless life,
 
Loyal
Brother put your pride away, unless you can tell me that you have not sinned one time since you have been saved you are still a sinner. Just like me. WE no longer live in sin, but make no mistake its only by Gods Grace we receive salvation, we are still sinners we just dont live in sin any longer. Jesus is who saves us from ourselves

Matthew 5:28
But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.



Only Jesus lived a sinless life,
There is no pride here..Only fact...I can take no pride in the fact that Jesus became the sinner for me, died for me, went to hell for me, so that I could be made the righteousness of God...That is God's mercy for me, and His Grace working in and for me.
2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
21 For he hath made him to be sin (sinner) for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

I did nothing to make myself worthy. He made me worthy.
Colossians 1:12 (CJB)
12 giving thanks to the Father for having made you fit to share in the inheritance of his people in the light.

When I walked in the flesh I was a sinner...Then I was born again, I died, I was raised up a brand new creature...who is NOT a sinner....but the righteousness of God in that anointing that He was anointed with and then passed to me (yeah You too) and in that anointing I am the righteousness of God...

So.....You have not answered my questions...How can you be a sinner and the righteousness of God at the same time? Second ....the fact that a born again man will sin with no effort does not mean he has a sinful nature...The more you walk with God the more you will take on His nature. So you have the nature of God and a sinful nature? Where does the Word say that?
Now I'll add another question.....Are you believing the Word? Or the doctrines of men?
 
Loyal
How can you be a sinner and the righteousness of God at the same time? Second ....the fact that a born again man will sin with no effort does not mean he has a sinful nature...
Most certainly, how can a man be both a sinner and the righteousness of God at the same time?

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:10

Indeed, as James wrote, they "ought not to be", but he was writing to believers, because they were existing simultaneously. What was happening was that while the "new" or "inner man" had been born, he was not receiving enough of the proper nourishment [the Word and the Spirit] while the "old man" who had not been completely and finally with a man was still being nourished with things that kept him on the prowl. What the Apostle Paul said with regard to this and what he himself doing about it was this:

"And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." I Cor 15:30-31

The more you walk with God the more you will take on His nature. So you have the nature of God and a sinful nature? Where does the Word say that?
"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1

And the Apostle Paul speaks of it here:
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

We are fighting battles as Jesus was fighting battles while He was in that veil of flesh and subject to the same temptations that we did. He won all of the battles as well as the war for Himself. He never sinned.

Our battles are lost every time we quench the Holy Spirit within us. And so the Apostle Paul admonishes:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

God never loses battles, but when we quench the Spirit, we suppress the power of God in us. He gave us that authority. It is what men often call "free will". We have always only had two choices: to serve God or to NOT serve God. Those two choices are cited throughout scripture in both the OT and NT. God did not ever remove from us the authority to make such a choice. What He gave us through the sacrifice of His Son was the power through the Holy Spirit to become overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer. We have somewhat different road than Jesus, because He never had a history of walking in the ways of sin. We do. Now because of Jesus we have the power to overcome, if we eat and drink properly [John 6:53] and we do not quench the Spirit within us.

Some say that Jesus did all of the work, but that is not so. He overcame so that we could overcome. Overcoming the ways of sin is necessary in each of us. We cannot do it alone, but we do not have to... We have God in us to do the work... if we will allow Him to work while it is still day, for the night cometh when no man can work.

Now I'll add another question.....Are you believing the Word? Or the doctrines of men?
"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27
Is God in us or not?
 

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