Judgment revisted

[B-A-C]

I love this forum. You can sure get into some interesting discussions with people about their beliefs.

Beliefs are an important thing. They are the biggest part of what makes us who we are.
I am reminded of a farmer friend I have. I call him Ford. That isn't his real name, but he likes it
when I call him that. One day he bought another pickup. Of course it was a Ford. He told me he has
owned about 10 trucks in his life. All were Fords except for one. He told me his daddy always drove
Fords and his grand-dad drove Fords before that. I suppose that could be a cool legacy in a way.
So he told me he'll always drive Ford trucks.

I wonder if some of us are that way about our theological beliefs? My daddy believed it, everyone in
my church has believed it for generations, so it must be right. I've asked these people sometimes for
scriptures on certain subjects... but sometimes they don't have any. Yet they've always believed it,
and say they probably always will.

Some believe that Jesus doesn't judge anyone.
Some believe that Jesus doesn't judge believers.
Some believe He "only" judges believers.
Some believe He only judges what we have faith in.
Some believe He judges our deeds.
Some believe that He judges believers, but not about things that affect salvation.

Some believe there is a difference between being saved and eternal life.
Some believe there is a difference between eternal life and being in the kingdom of heaven.
Some believe that not everyone's soul will live forever, but some will simply be annihilated after death.

Some believe everyone is going to heaven, no matter what they believe.
Some believe that only people who believe the same way they believe are going to heaven.
Some do not believe in an afterlife of any kind.. (these people call themselves Christians).

We can't answer all of these questions, and there may be some that we will never have the answer to.
But I think we should try to do the best we can. "To study and show ourselves approved".

I hope we can discuss these things in peace. I hope that we can take a full gospel approach
to whatever answers we come up with. What I mean by that is... sometimes, two people will sometimes
come up with two verses that seemingly contradict each other. So neither one believes the verses
that go against their beliefs. But there is always an explanation. There is always a way to reconcile
these verses if we look at it from a different light.

... OK... off the soapbox...

 

[B-A-C]

Some take partial "passages" of scripture. It seems some think the Bible was originally written with chapters
and verses numbered. However this isn't the case, the verse numbers were added much later.

Matt 7:1; is a good one.
Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

simple enough right?
Yet the next verse says...
For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

The thing is.. we all judge a little. I'm fairly confident I can point out several "judgment calls" by many
regulars here on TJ (including myself). I was reading a thread this morning were it seems some were saying
others did not have the Holy Spirit. Yet another thread were someone was asking someone if they have
ever read the Bible.

One thing the Bible mentions... is judging of cities. Perhaps this is metaphorical, but perhaps not.

Matt 10:13; If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.
Matt 10:14; Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet.
Matt 10:15; Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

Apparently it's Ok to take back a blessing of peace from some people. Apparently it's OK to judge whether or not
they receive you or reject you and your message.

But it also seems there is a difference between passing the judgment of whether they are to receive a blessing or not,
and the "day of judgment". Which seems to be more like a sentence being passed, once the judgment has been made.
In this case, it is made upon the entire city.

Matt 11:20; Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
Matt 11:21; “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Matt 11:22; Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
Matt 11:23; And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Matt 11:24; Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Here we have three cities. Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. Jesus says they will not "be exalted" to heaven.
But rather they will descend to Hades. Again it seems, there will come a "day of judgment" upon these cities,
because they did not "repent with sackcloth and ashes". Whether or not sackcloth and ashes are required, it seems
that repentance is.. at least for these cities. Again it seems they have already been judged... but yet the sentence
of the judgment hasn't happened yet.

 

[B-A-C]

The Bible talks about people of certain cities... judging people of other cities.

In Matt 12:41; it says the men of Ninevah will judge the people "of this generation", and they will condemn it.

Jesus knows in advance... that they will be condemned.

... because Ninevah repented (at the preaching of Jonah)... and now someone greater than Jonah is here,
yet you refuse to repent.

In the next verse... Matt 12:42;
It says.. "The Queen of the South" will judge "this generation"... and will condemn it.

The queen of the South is often considered to be the Queen of Sheba who visited Solomon in 1 Kings chapter 10.

... because she listed to what Solomon said; and now... someone greater than Solomon is here...

In Matt 19:28; Jesus is talking to Peter... the other disciples are there also.
Jesus just got through saying... "It is harder for a rich man to enter into heaven than... "
Jesus tells them... "you who have followed me"... "when I sit upon my throne"...
you will sit upon 12 thrones... and you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[LordKnows]

I think it all comes down to people not liking their faults pointed out. So instead of owning wrongs that are done in the dark why not just say "hey don't judge me". So they don't feel convicted. I don't like my faults, sins, wrong doings & what have you put out on front street for all to learn BUT when they are I will own up to them even when I feel uncomfortable doing so. I don't really mind being judged all that much afterwards. Judge me all you like, I'm not perfect & will never claimed to be. When someone judges me I will say that it keeps me in check & I need that. I'm not always right & I hope that whenever I'm wrong someone does speak up & corrects me so I don't go through life thinking I'm spreading knowledge when what I think is false.

 

[LordKnows]

I wonder if some of us are that way about our theological beliefs? My daddy believed it, everyone in
my church has believed it for generations, so it must be right. I've asked these people sometimes for
scriptures on certain subjects... but sometimes they don't have any. Yet they've always believed it,
and say they probably always will.

YES YES YES - PERFECTLY worded. I say yes, if it's said over & over through generations we eventually cling to it like it's truth.

Awesome post BAC!!!

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Some things the Lord has been showing me is,,,,,,,
Far to many believers have yet to truly renew their mind in Christ. They refuse to except that it is an every day event and must be applied no matter how mature One THINKS They are.

Far to many believers THINK things were of God because they were Spiritual and God had nothing to do with them. The devil is the great imitater and unless you continue to exercise listening to His voice daily well one can be fooled. Think of those voice imitaters, they sound so good and even just like some one UNTIL you hear them both at the same time. It is like this with God. The devil will get in there and sound or look like it is of God and just twist a little and if you are not on top of your game well one can miss it and believe it is God and little by little the devil gets one over into a thinking that takes them in the wrong direction and it Does NOT have to be a bad thing to not be God.

One more thing brother that i would like to add, not only is reading the bible with chapter and verse not a wise idea..........NOT knowing the difference of meaning with words written in scripture from our take or understanding of words today. This also aids in using scripture wrong and making scripture say things it never did and thus forming your thinking unto wrong thinking. Deadly to say the least.

Wonderful thread my brother and i am looming forward to it's growth.
Blessings
James

 

[Dave M]

My thing about judging is this, first I will apply what I believe is good judgment to all situations that I can. But I have been blind in the past like living with a female yet I was not married to her and having sex with out being married sins, yet I was blind and did not see. I thought I was using good judgement but was not. At the time I saw no wrong. I constantly think man I was blind back then, there probably still a lot of stuff I may be blind to now, that I simply do not realize. I really take what Jesus says to heart and just assume I have a plank in my eye that I can not see, yet do my very best to try to see.

I do think if you have a close group of friends or a church and you want hold each other accountable in a Godly pure way that is a good thing. I have a great friend who I do this with. BUt it seems to me a very difficult thing and to be easily blinded.

Taking scripture versus out of context of original meaning seems like a very easy thing to do. lets here some solutions to this instead of everybody just talking about it. I think thats why its important when quoting scripture to back up your thoughts you should also be required to actually state what you think that scripture means!!! I try to do that, so you know exactly where I am coming from. I see someone say one thing then post ten scriptures that seem to have no relation to what they said, I am blind I do not know..

Another thing I like to do is study the versus to get the true meaning a source like Bible Questions Answered is a huge help to get the true meaning of scripture in terms I can understand. If anyone else has credible sources please post them up. Because that's another issue to many crappy sources out there.

 

[B-A-C]

yet I was blind and did not see. I thought I was using good judgement but was not.

I once was blind, but now I see... hmmm... someone should write a hymn about that sometime

I've been there with you on this one my friend. You're right, sin can sometimes blind us.
It's not really that bad, a lot of my friends are doing it. Everyone on television is doing it... so it can't
be that bad. God must think it's OK.... it might not be good for other people, but it's good for me.

Which brings us back to Matt 7....

Matt 7:1; “Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Matt 7:2; For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Matt 7:3; Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Matt 7:4; Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Matt 7:5; You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
Matt 7:6; “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Luke puts it this way...

Luke 6:39; And He also spoke a parable to them: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Luke 6:40; A pupil is not above his teacher; but everyone, after he has been fully trained, will be like his teacher.
Luke 6:41; Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Luke 6:42; Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye

I've noticed over the years... it's pretty easy to sins the sins of some people. ( 1 Tim 5:24; )
...and yet... for some reason.... it's very difficult to see my own sins. Once God has revealed them to me and I'm convicted
of them, well that's another story.

So in the meantime I'm as guilty as anyone. I'm quick to judge others for things I'm doing and or least have done
in my past. It seems if we are going to judge others.... we better make sure we aren't hypocrites about it.

I really like verse 40 above. "Once they have been fully trained"... they will be like their teacher.
It seems I have been in need of much training over the years.... and sometimes it seems, I'm still not enough
like the teacher (Jesus).

 

[B-A-C]

John 3:16; is probably the most well known and often quoted verse in the Bible.
Some churches have built their entire doctrine on just this one verse.
The next verse is similar...
For God did not send the Son into the world to JUDGE the world, but that the world MIGHT be saved through Him.

.... this is really talking about believers here... how do I know that? Read the next verse...

John 3:18; He who believes in Him is not judged; he who not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed
in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19; This is the JUDGMENT, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light,
for their deeds were evil.

Jesus didn't come here to judge the world... at least not yet. But the unbelievers, they are already judged.
I think I have to agree... many in the world today love darkness rather than the Light.
What's worse... some are being hypocrites about it, and claiming to be Christians.

 

[B-A-C]

In 1 Cor 5, starting at verse 1. Paul brings up the subject about a man in the church who is having an affair
with his father's wife. It seems from the wording here, that it is not his mother.

In verse 2 Paul says they have become arrogant... (Christians? arrogant? hmmm... )
You in the church have not mourned... so that the one who has done this....
would be REMOVED from your midst.

This passage is interesting because it brings up certain policy of how to treat people in the
church. Lets say for example, two young people... a man and a woman... are living together.
They aren't married, they don't really talk about this much, and they aren't proud of it.
But they've been going to your church for a while now. Maybe some think they are married.
Maybe others suspect they are living together but don't know for sure yet.

What would your church do? What would you do?

In my case... the answer depends on whether they claim to be saved or not.
If they aren't saved.... it doesn't really matter whether they are living together or not all that much.
Because even if they weren't living together, they still wouldn't be saved. So living together isn't
the biggest issue.

The first thing to do... is to make sure they get Jesus/salvation.

OK... so now they are saved. Maybe they've only been Christians for a very short while. They are baby
Christians... they don't really know all the "rules" yet. So should we kick them out of the church immediately?

Now is living together as bad as having an affair with your dad's wife? Perhaps not, but both are still sin.
Now lets say these people say that they have been saved, believing Christians for a long time. Maybe ten years
or longer... but they are living together. Everyone in the church knows it.

Now what you your church do? What would you do? Is the answer different than it was before they were saved?

I gather from this situation in 1 Cor 5... this isn't someone who isn't saved.
In fact... it isn't a new, baby Christian.. but someone who has been in the church for some time now.
Not only that... the church has known about this for sometime now.

In verse 3... Paul says I have already JUDGED him.
In verse 4... Paul says he is going to give this person over to satan, for the destruction of his flesh...
so that his spirit MIGHT be saved in the day of our Lord.

If this person isn't saved... his soul already belongs to Satan.. Paul doesn't have to hand him over to satan.
But this person is saved. How do I know that?

1 Cor 5:9; I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1 Cor 5:10; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
1 Cor 5:11; But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one

Paul says here.... sometimes we have to associate with people of the world. In fact the only way to get away from them
is to leave this world. But then he goes on to say.. I didn't mean these people. I meant those who call themselves
Christians. Any "so-called brother". Paul says, don't even eat with such a person as this.

In this case... if the person was unsaved... it might be OK to eat with them. (even though what they are doing
isn't right). But since this person is saved... I have handed him over to satan. You are not supposed to have
anything to do with person. You should have removed him from your midst. ( verse 2 )

1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

If we combine verse 13 above with John 3:18;
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God judges unbelievers. God judges those outside the church. But Paul says... don't YOU judge those who are inside the church?
It's up to us to correct and rebuke one another. ( 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Tim 2:25; James 5:19; etc.. )
It's up to us to show the sins of those in the church to them and help them repent. ( Matt 18:15-17; )
We should be doing this in love... and they should be repenting of these sins...

... but if they don't ...

Matt 18:17; if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church,
let him be a sinner to you, as an unsaved Gentile and a crooked tax collector.

1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

We are to judge those in the church, in the body. Those who are calling themselves Christians.
We are to "remove the wicked man from among yourselves".

... to be continued ...

 

[LordKnows]

PRAISE GOD PRAISE GOD PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY!!!!!!! B.A.C. YOU my brother & friend in Christ are ON FIRE for our Lord!!!!! Keep ii coming!!!! Lord I pray you keep BAC rolling in your word of facts & truth!!!!!!! Ohhhh Weeeee ALL GLORY TO GOD!!!

 

[Dave M]

Now that's what I am talking about !!!

 

[B-A-C]

The first 5 verses of Matthew chapter 7 talk about taking the log out of your own eye before you
judge the splinter in your brothers eye. This is really talking about self examination. Judging yourself.

As I said earlier it's easy to judge others... but often it is difficult to judge ourselves.

Rom 2:1-3; also talk sabout judgment. Especially for those who judge others.. but yet they are doing the very
things they are judging other people for.

Rom 2:1;Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
Rom 2:2; And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
Rom 2:3; But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

I have to wonder at some churches here. They say.. "I believe in Jesus, so I will not be judged".
...and yet.. we have these verses like Rom 2:3; and Matt 7:2; that say if you judge other hypocritically.. you will be judged.
(more about that later).

I mentioned earlier in post #10 about baby Christians in the church. I wonder if Rom 14:1; applies to this situation
as well. Accept those who are weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment....

I also mentioned the 1 Corinthians 5. The whole chapter relates to man in the church who is involved in
heinous sin. The entire church seems to know about it. But as I said earlier, chapters and verses don't
always correlate to the subject at hand. In this case, Paul continues the thought into 1 Cor 6.

1 Cor 6:2; Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you
not competent to settle things between yourselves? (Some Bibles say.. constitute the smallest court laws).

The next verse says... Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much MORE do we need to be capable of
judging the matters of this life?

Verse 4 says... So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are
of no account in the church?

Wow... if only... If this nation had Godly law-makers and Godly judges.... how different would things be?
If only we appointed the ones we held in high respect and high esteem those who were in the church.

1 Cor 11:1-16; talks about long hair, short hair, and covering your head with a bonnet or hat.
Now this seems a petty thing. But it's talking about respecting God in His house (the church).
A church doesn't have to be a building... it can just be a gathering of people anywhere.

When I was a teenager (in the 70's) I had pretty long hair. Now I keep it pretty short.
However I do wear a ball cap almost all of the time... unless I'm doing one of three things.
I generally don't take a shower with it on. I generally don't go to bed with it on.
..and I never wear it in church or when someone is praying. Will God strike me down for wearing it?
Probably not... but the question is... am I showing Him respect if I don't?

back to judging...

1 Cor 11:13; Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?

I grew up in the deep south. Even today, some churches there frown upon men wearing hats and caps
in church, and especially not during worship or prayer. Some women wear hats in church.
Maybe this is legalistic... but it really isn't about a law or commandment that says we HAVE to do this.
It's about respecting God, and wanting to show respect.

... to be continued ...

 

[LordKnows]

@B-A-C I see that Gods fire hasn't gone out!!! Oohhh wee! Keep it coming!!!

We (simple humans) see judging as a "bad", "unfair" thing to do because we are ALL imperfect. SO the first thing we think is "WHO are they to judge when their life is screwed up?!" Judging is viewed as finger pointing & NOBODY likes it. It all boils down to self. If I do something that a Christian should not do I can do one of two things... Take the judgement & LEARN NOT to continue doing it or get hyped up & defend the wrong by saying "don't judge me, Only God can do that" and keep doing it. BUT If I am part of the BODY of Christ I'm pretty much saying that Christ does wrong & defends it & we ALL know THAT is a lie.

Quite personally I wouldn't mind if a Christian pointed out my faults in order to keep me on Gods path no matter who the Christian was. Sure I would want to dissect their faults but we wouldn't be talking about them, we would be discussing ME & what I need to change & work on to better MY relationship with God.

 

[B-A-C]

BUT If I am part of the BODY of Christ I'm pretty much saying that Christ does wrong & defends it & we ALL know THAT is a lie.

You bring up an important point. I wasn't quite ready to get to yet, but since we're here.

When we become Christians... we aren't only joined to Jesus, but we are joined to one another.
The church is the body of Christ. ( Rom 12:4-5; )

I was going to continue on in 1 Corinthians 6 anyway... so now is a good time.

1 Cor 6:15; Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
1 Cor 6:16; Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “The two shall become one flesh.”
1 Cor 6:17; But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

This passage can be taken at different levels.
Individually - I as a Christian shouldn't be involved with immorality in MY body.
Corporately - We as the church shouldn't be involved with immorality in OUR body.

1 Cor 6:18; Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
1 Cor 6:19; Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
1 Cor 6:20; For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Again.. this passage can be taken individually or corporately.
If we allow unclean practices and sinful permissiveness in our church, aren't we joining them in their sin?
Not only that... aren't we causing the body of CHRIST Himself to be joining into that sin.

 

[B-A-C]

We've been talking about judging others here.... and it seems that before we do that,
we need to judge ourselves. Take the log out of own eye so to speak.

Also we aren't supposed to judge based on appearances ( John 7:24; )
1 Cor 11:31; says if we judged OURSELVES rightly, we would not be judged.

The way we judge ourselves, affects how God judges us.

1 Cor 11:27; Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
1 Cot 11:28; But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.
1 Cor 11:29; For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
1 Cor 11:30; For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
1 Cor 11:31; But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
1 Cor 11:32; But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

1 Cor 11:23-26; are about the Lord's supper and are often read during communion. But it seems many churches
leave out the verses above.

How good are we at judging ourselves? I'm not sure, but we will be held accountable for it.

2 Cor 13:5; Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
2 Cor 13:6; But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
2 Cor 13:7; Now we pray to God that you do no wrong; not that we ourselves may appear approved, but that you may do what is right, even though we may appear unapproved.

 

[KingJ]

If God never wanted us to judge we would not have the minds we do. We would not have free will.

Paul spoke a lot on judging. These are powerful scriptures you quoted:

1 Cor 11:31; But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.
1 Cor 11:32; But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.

What this is saying is that ''we'' have the ability to not be judged by God. IE God is not / never will judge us for things we are oblivious too!

I just want to add that when Jesus said '''do not judge'' the context was clearly with regards to something like the crowd wanting to stone the prostitute. Now Jesus made it clear that she must go and sin no more. IE He judged her. But He stopped the crowd from passing sentence on her. This is why judging is such an issue today. People cannot discern the difference between judging to discern and judging to condemn. The English language is crystal clear that judging is to form an opinion / discern. This everyone with a working brain does. So telling us not to judge is like saying switch your brain off.

Condemning is something we should never do only because all living have hope of still coming to Jesus. One-day when we judge angels it will be a different story. Paul included this fact because he wanted to make it clear to us that we can certainly judge matters now. Christians obviously better then unsaved. But unsaved still have no excuse. Every unsaved person on the planet knows that murder and adultery are evil. It is because mankind can judge that they are accountable for their sins.