"John The Baptist", The Other Message

[RJ]

We all know the story:
The immediate forerunner of Jesus, sent by God to prepare the way for the comming Messiah.
Here are just a few of the well known particulars:

• Luke 1:15 John was filled with the spirit while in the womb
• Luke 3:1-3 God gives John a message in the wilderness to prepare the way for the comming messiah.
• Matthew 3:1-4 John preached and baptised for the remission of sins.
• John 1:29 John testifies about Jesus
• Matthew 11:11 Jesus states that John is the greatest of men

So, John was filled with the spirit and called by God to make ready for Jesus and, indeed, he prepared the way as instructed. So, what is the other message? It is about faith and our own struggles with doubt.
Matthew 11:2 John personally knew and was chosen by God. When was the last time God spoke to you? Jesus testified that John was the greatest of all men. Now, that was pretty good company when you think of people like Noah, Moses, Abraham, Joseph and David, just to mention a few!
Even though Jesus message to John probably set him straight in the end nevertheless, with all his knowledge, John expressed doubt while in prison.

John, filled with the Holy Spirit had his doubt. Doubt, in itself is a sin.
So, you as a Christian are human, with all the weaknesses, can have your measure of doubt at times. But do not fear for Romans 8:1.
Stay in the word and God's promise of increased faith and remember the other message of John The Baptist.

 

[Davy]

Hi RJ. In Luke 7:18-23, John the Baptist sent two of his disciples to ask Jesus "Are you the Messiah." Then Jesus went curing people's diseases and illnesses, casting out evil spirits and restored sight to the blind. After, Jesus told John's disciples to go back and tell him what he was doing. Finally, Jesus said in verse 23, tell him, "God blesses those who do not turn away because of me." The (TLB) Bible renders this verse as: "And tell him, Blessed is the one who does not lose his faith in me." This seems to be a strange statement, but only until you look at the big picture.

John like many of the other disciples believed Jesus was going to establish his kingdom on earth very shortly. (Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6) Thus many were confused at the delay, because while they were waiting Christians were suffering and some were dying. John himself was expecting to loose his head very shortly and that is why John asked this question. He knew Jesus was the Messiah, as he was told that when he baptised Jesus. (Matthew 3:13-17) He did not doubt Jesus as the Messiah, he was confused as to when he would establish his kingdom on earth!

Like John, many did not see the bigger picture, it was only after Jesus' death that they began to understand. Although many wanted Jesus to establish his kingdom and bring an end to their suffering. First, Jesus had to die to provide the ransom sacrifice, which would redeem all of mankind to come. Jesus could not step in and help any of the Christians before hand, because if he used his kingdom power, they would have not plotted to kill him and there would not have been a ransom.

Today, we can fall into the same trap. We might think why does Jesus not come in his kingdom power and stop all the wars, starvation and deaths from natural disasters and begin ruling over the earth for 1000 years. We have to endure many hardships while waiting for the appointed time for Jesus to begin directly ruling over the earth, at his appointed time, not ours. So, blessed is the one who does not lose his faith in Jesus, because they are having to wait patiently.

 

[RJ]

Hi RJ. In Luke 7:18-23, John the Baptist sent two of his disciples to ask Jesus "Are you the Messiah." Then Jesus went curing people's diseases and illnesses, casting out evil spirits and restored sight to the blind. After, Jesus told John's disciples to go back and tell him what he was doing. Finally, Jesus said in verse 23, tell him, "God blesses those who do not turn away because of me." The (TLB) Bible renders this verse as: "And tell him, Blessed is the one who does not lose his faith in me." This seems to be a strange statement, but only until you look at the big picture.

John like many of the other disciples believed Jesus was going to establish his kingdom on earth very shortly. (Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6) Thus many were confused at the delay, because while they were waiting Christians were suffering and some were dying. John himself was expecting to loose his head very shortly and that is why John asked this question. He knew Jesus was the Messiah, as he was told that when he baptised Jesus. (Matthew 3:13-17) He did not doubt Jesus as the Messiah, he was confused as to when he would establish his kingdom on earth!

Like John, many did not see the bigger picture, it was only after Jesus' death that they began to understand. Although many wanted Jesus to establish his kingdom and bring an end to their suffering. First, Jesus had to die to provide the ransom sacrifice, which would redeem all of mankind to come. Jesus could not step in and help any of the Christians before hand, because if he used his kingdom power, they would have not plotted to kill him and there would not have been a ransom.

Today, we can fall into the same trap. We might think why does Jesus not come in his kingdom power and stop all the wars, starvation and deaths from natural disasters and begin ruling over the earth for 1000 years. We have to endure many hardships while waiting for the appointed time for Jesus to begin directly ruling over the earth, at his appointed time, not ours. So, blessed is the one who does not lose his faith in Jesus, because they are having to wait patiently.

I see nothing that makes me think otherwise about John's moment of doubt.
That is a good thing here at T.J., we can all agree to disagree!

 

[james1523]

Hi RJ. In Luke 7:18-23, John the Baptist sent two of his disciples to ask Jesus "Are you the Messiah." Then Jesus went curing people's diseases and illnesses, casting out evil spirits and restored sight to the blind. After, Jesus told John's disciples to go back and tell him what he was doing. Finally, Jesus said in verse 23, tell him, "God blesses those who do not turn away because of me." The (TLB) Bible renders this verse as: "And tell him, Blessed is the one who does not lose his faith in me." This seems to be a strange statement, but only until you look at the big picture.

John like many of the other disciples believed Jesus was going to establish his kingdom on earth very shortly. (Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6) Thus many were confused at the delay, because while they were waiting Christians were suffering and some were dying. John himself was expecting to loose his head very shortly and that is why John asked this question. He knew Jesus was the Messiah, as he was told that when he baptised Jesus. (Matthew 3:13-17) He did not doubt Jesus as the Messiah, he was confused as to when he would establish his kingdom on earth!

Like John, many did not see the bigger picture, it was only after Jesus' death that they began to understand. Although many wanted Jesus to establish his kingdom and bring an end to their suffering. First, Jesus had to die to provide the ransom sacrifice, which would redeem all of mankind to come. Jesus could not step in and help any of the Christians before hand, because if he used his kingdom power, they would have not plotted to kill him and there would not have been a ransom.

Today, we can fall into the same trap. We might think why does Jesus not come in his kingdom power and stop all the wars, starvation and deaths from natural disasters and begin ruling over the earth for 1000 years. We have to endure many hardships while waiting for the appointed time for Jesus to begin directly ruling over the earth, at his appointed time, not ours. So, blessed is the one who does not lose his faith in Jesus, because they are having to wait patiently.

John's understanding that Christ would establish His kingdom on earth shortly, was correct. What he failed to see, was that Christ's kingdom was not about earthly rulers or worldly power, but about Christ's rule and reign in the hearts of His people, the church. John himself, would never get to enter the kingdom (he died before the church was started) , and he signified the end of the old kingdom, which was about revealing and anticipating the kingdom to come..the church. In Matt 11:11 Jesus said that the least in the kingdom is greater than John, who was greater than any yet born. The least in the new covenant is greater than the greatest in the old covenant. Christ's kingdom came on earth when the church began. The church is God's kingdom on earth. What we are waiting for is the heavenly kingdom to come. Everything that God has done and does is for the church. Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her"

 

[Hekuran]

John's understanding that Christ would establish His kingdom on earth shortly, was correct. What he failed to see, was that Christ's kingdom was not about earthly rulers or worldly power, but about Christ's rule and reign in the hearts of His people, the church.

Of course Jesus Christ's reign is about earthly power too. Colossians 1:15-20

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
​

Nothing is outside Christ's reign. The confusion in Jesus' own time was about how the Messiah would enter his Kingship. The assumption was that the Messiah would rise up against the Roman oppressors with a mighty display of power, then re-establish Israel to its former glory. No-one -- John the Baptist included, it seems -- was expecting Jesus to establish the kingdom by means of this own death and resurrection.

 

[RJ]

John's understanding that Christ would establish His kingdom on earth shortly, was correct. What he failed to see, was that Christ's kingdom was not about earthly rulers or worldly power, but about Christ's rule and reign in the hearts of His people, the church. John himself, would never get to enter the kingdom (he died before the church was started) , and he signified the end of the old kingdom, which was about revealing and anticipating the kingdom to come..the church. In Matt 11:11 Jesus said that the least in the kingdom is greater than John, who was greater than any yet born. The least in the new covenant is greater than the greatest in the old covenant. Christ's kingdom came on earth when the church began. The church is God's kingdom on earth. What we are waiting for is the heavenly kingdom to come. Everything that God has done and does is for the church. Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her"

John himself, would never get to enter the kingdom (he died before the church was started) , and he signified the end of the old kingdom, which was about revealing and anticipating the kingdom to come..the church.
I think a problem we all have is that it is impossible for any of us to know for sure about everything.
Sure, we have the word of God and the Holy Spirit to lead us into trut but, we are yet perfected and have our limits.
I appreciate what you james1523 but, I am not too sure what you say.To die and be only in the spirit, I don't really see why John couldn't enter God's Kingdom, unlike us he was given the Holy Spirit while in Elizabeth's womb!

• How can we say he had the Holy Spirit in him but he couldn't enter the spiritual realm of God.
• During Jesus transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared with him and talked with him. Where did they appear from unless it was from the spiritual realm of God's kingdom.

 

[james1523]

John himself, would never get to enter the kingdom (he died before the church was started) , and he signified the end of the old kingdom, which was about revealing and anticipating the kingdom to come..the church.
I think a problem we all have is that it is impossible for any of us to know for sure about everything.
Sure, we have the word of God and the Holy Spirit to lead us into trut but, we are yet perfected and have our limits.
I appreciate what you james1523 but, I am not too sure what you say.To die and be only in the spirit, I don't really see why John couldn't enter God's Kingdom, unlike us he was given the Holy Spirit while in Elizabeth's womb!

• How can we say he had the Holy Spirit in him but he couldn't enter the spiritual realm of God.
• During Jesus transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared with him and talked with him. Where did they appear from unless it was from the spiritual realm of God's kingdom.

There is a difference between "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God". Kingdom of heaven is the church. Kingdom of God is God's general rule. John was in the kingdom of God, but not in the Kingdom of heaven. I highlighted this in another thread. Matt 11:11 says "Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
The least of Christ's disciples, who enjoyed the age of grace and the gospel age, and the church, is greater than the greatest (such as John) under the old covenant.
The least of Christ's disciples, knew Christ in an intimate way, and fellowshipped with Him, enjoying His grace and His teaching, and also were given the power to work miracles in Christ's name. John however, did not have this experience or miracle-working ability.

 

[RJ]

There is a difference between "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God". Kingdom of heaven is the church. Kingdom of God is God's general rule. John was in the kingdom of God, but not in the Kingdom of heaven. I highlighted this in another thread. Matt 11:11 says "Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
The least of Christ's disciples, who enjoyed the age of grace and the gospel age, and the church, is greater than the greatest (such as John) under the old covenant.
The least of Christ's disciples, knew Christ in an intimate way, and fellowshipped with Him, enjoying His grace and His teaching, and also were given the power to work miracles in Christ's name. John however, did not have this experience or miracle-working ability.

I have two comments with your reply:

• What again, is your reply to why John asked the question,"is Jesus the Messiah"?
• John himself, would never get to enter the kingdom (he died before the church was started) John was given the Holy Spirit in the womb, commanded by God to "prepare the way" and yet he didn't make it into the kingdom?
• I would question the act of the theif ,on the cross next to Jesus, going to Paradise when he died, before I would question the omnipotent power of Jesus Christ and whether or not if John made it to heaven.

 

[james1523]

I have two comments with your reply:
What again, is your reply to why John asked the question,"is Jesus the Messiah"?
John himself, would never get to enter the kingdom (he died before the church was started) John was given the Holy Spirit in the womb, commanded by God to "prepare the way" and yet he didn't make it into the kingdom?
I would question the act of the theif ,on the cross next to Jesus, going to Paradise when he died, before I would question the omnipotent power of Jesus Christ and whether or not if John made it to heaven.

There are three possibilities. 1) John himself doubted that Jesus was the Messiah and needed some confirmation. 2) John's disciples doubted who Jesus was, so John sent them to Christ for their sake, not for his own. 3) John believed that Jesus was the Messiah, but was stumbled by Jesus's ministry, John didn't understand the spiritual nature of the kingdom - this is the view expressed in Davy's post.

Many Christians think that the thief on the cross is an example of Christian salvation. But they forget that when the thief died, Jesus had not risen and the Spirit had not been given. Therefore the thief was not born again or regenerated, the thief did not receive the Holy Spirit. This is why the thief didn't go to heaven, but to Paradise, which is the holding place for dead souls. John also went to paradise, not heaven, because Jesus had not died and rose again yet, and the Spirit was not yet given for regeneration.

Yes John had the Spirit from birth, but this is in the sense of having the Spirit like King Saul, and King David, and Elijah and the prophets (see Judges 6:34 and 2 Chronicles 24:20). They all had the Spirit but were not born again or regenerated, and therefore could not enter heaven.

This is why Jesus said that the least in the kingdom of Heaven - i.e. a believer born again and regenerated by the Spirit, is greater than John, who died under the old covenant.

This verse proves that the Spirit had not been given until Jesus was glorified:

John 7:39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

But we know that John had the Spirit. How can John have the Spirit yet the Spirit was not yet given? The answer is they are different aspects of the Spirit. The Spirit John received was the Spirit of God. The same Spirit that Elijah received and all the prophets. The Spirit equips them for ministry and service, but does not regenerate them. The Spirit that was yet to be given was the Spirit of Christ, who is the Spirit of God that has gone through Christ's humanity, crucifixion, death and resurrection. This is the Spirit that joins to a believer's spirit and makes them born again or regenerated. The reason why the Spirit could not regenerate anyone before Jesus died, was because the Spirit could not dwell in sinful human flesh until Jesus became the Spirit (1 Cor 15:45). Jesus is the bridge between God and man, because He is both the Son of God and the Son of Man. Therefore the Spirit of Christ, is the Spirit of God that can join to the human spirit and become one spirit with man ( 1 Cor 6:17). This Spirit is also called the spirit of sonship because it is the Spirit of the Son (Rom 8:15). When we receive the Spirit of the Son, we also become sons of God. John the Baptist did not have the Spirit of the Son, only the Spirit of God, therefore John the baptist could not enter the kingdom of heaven, because he was not born of the Spirit. However the least of Christ's disciples, would be regenerated after they receive the Spirit, and would therefore be the least in the kingdom of heaven.