John 3:9-16

[RJ]

he chose not to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

I like the "Born Again" part, but Nicodemus not believing in Jesus is highly speculative and not scripturally supported:
John 19: 38-42 38 After these things, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, though a secret one because of his fear of the Jews, asked Pilate to let him take away the body of Jesus. Pilate gave him permission; so he came and removed his body. 39 Nicodemus, who had at first come to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds. 40 They took the body of Jesus and wrapped it with the spices in linen cloths, according to the burial custom of the Jews. 41 Now there was a garden in the place where he was crucified, and in the garden there was a new tomb in which no one had ever been laid. 42 And so, because it was the Jewish day of Preparation, and the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

 

[Sue J Love]

I like the "Born Again" part, but Nicodemus not believing in Jesus is highly speculative and not scripturally supported:
John 19: 38-42 38 After these things, Joseph of Arimathea, who was a disciple of Jesus, though a secret one because of his fear of the Jews, asked Pilate to let him take away the body of Jesus. Pilate gave him permission; so he came and removed his body. 39 Nicodemus, who had at first come to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, weighing about a hundred pounds. 40 They took the body of Jesus and wrapped it with the spices in linen cloths, according to the burial custom of the Jews. 41 Now there was a garden in the place where he was crucified, and in the garden there was a new tomb in which no one had ever been laid. 42 And so, because it was the Jewish day of Preparation, and the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

Jesus said that Nicodemus did not receive God's testimony and that he did not believe. The song is based upon these words in John 3. Yet, it is possible that Nicodemus later became a follower of Christ, maybe after Jesus was crucified. Scripture does not say exactly, so people mainly speculate on that. Yet, based upon John 3, Nicodemus did not accept God's testimony and he did not believe, at least not at this point, and there is no indication, in this passage, that he did finally believe, from what I can tell.

John 3:9-16: "9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."​

 

[RJ]

so people mainly speculate on that.

Yes, and perhaps you are one those people when you say: "yet he chose not to accept what he heard, i.e. he chose not to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah." There is no indication in John 3 that Nicodemus was not a believer, he simply just didn't understand anything about the coming of the New Covenant and the meaning of being "Born Again"!

Jesus said that Nicodemus did not receive God's testimony and that he did not believe.

Could you please show me where that is written?

 

[Sue J Love]

Yes, and perhaps you are one those people when you say: "yet he chose not to accept what he heard, i.e. he chose not to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah." There is no indication in John 3 that Nicodemus was not a believer, he simply just didn't understand anything about the coming of the New Covenant and the meaning of being "Born Again"!
Could you please show me where that is written?

I did already. Go back and read John 3:9-16. Jesus said it. I bolded it. You can't miss it. Again, the song is based off what the scripture says, not off my own conjecture about whether or not he ever believed in Christ. I hope he did. The song came from the Lord, not from me. They all came from him. It is not my responsibility to try to figure out whether or not Nicodemus ever believed in Jesus.

 

[RJ]

I did already. Go back and read John 3:9-16. Jesus said it. I bolded it. You can't miss it. Again, the song is based off what the scripture says, not off my own conjecture about whether or not he ever believed in Christ. I hope he did. The song came from the Lord, not from me. They all came from him. It is not my responsibility to try to figure out whether or not Nicodemus ever believed in Jesus.

A song is not scripture. It is your responsibility to adhere to the word of God, not a song, I don't care who you think it comes from. If you are not responsible whether or not Nicodemus ever believed in Jesus then don't say he never believed, you don't know that. In John 3 Jesus was critical of Nicodemus for his lack of understanding as much as unbelief at the time. Caiaphas and most of the other Pharisees where plotting to kill Jesus, that is scripture. While this was going on, Nicodemus initially said Jesus was from God, that is scripture and a pretty good indicator of his belief system at the time. And latter events, highly suggest that Nicodemus was a believer by the end, definitely scripture and more so than a bold statement that he didn't believe.
Possible you should read this scripture again: Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

 

[Sue J Love]

A song is not scripture. It is your responsibility to adhere to the word of God, not a song, I don't care who you think it comes from. If you are not responsible whether or not Nicodemus ever believed in Jesus then don't say he never believed, you don't know that. In John 3 Jesus was critical of Nicodemus for his lack of understanding as much as unbelief at the time. Caiaphas and most of the other Pharisees where plotting to kill Jesus, that is scripture. While this was going on, Nicodemus initially said Jesus was from God, that is scripture and a pretty good indicator of his belief system at the time. And latter events, highly suggest that Nicodemus was a believer by the end, definitely scripture and more so than a bold statement that he didn't believe.
Possible you should read this scripture again: Romans 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

RJ, I quoted you John 3:9-16. I bolded in the passage where Jesus said that Nicodemus did not accept God's testimony and where Jesus said that Nicodemus did not believe. I said the song was based off this scripture, but it was scripture that I quoted you, and it was in the scripture where it said Nicodemus did not believe. So, if you are not accepting that, then you are not accepting scripture. I believe what the scripture says. The song was based purely off that passage of scripture, so in that scripture Nicodemus did not believe. Jesus said it and therefore I believe it. So, your issue is with Jesus and with scripture, not with me.

 

[RJ]

RJ, I quoted you John 3:9-16. I bolded in the passage where Jesus said that Nicodemus did not accept God's testimony and where Jesus said that Nicodemus did not believe. I said the song was based off this scripture, but it was scripture that I quoted you, and it was in the scripture where it said Nicodemus did not believe. So, if you are not accepting that, then you are not accepting scripture. I believe what the scripture says. The song was based purely off that passage of scripture, so in that scripture Nicodemus did not believe. Jesus said it and therefore I believe it. So, your issue is with Jesus and with scripture, not with me.

No Ma'am, my issue is with you and your singular direct translation of a single verse, rather than the contextual observance of the entire scripture concerning Nicodemus! Based on further scriptural knowledge of Nicodemus's actions concerning Jesus, you just can't simply make a "blanket" statement that Nicodemus was a nonbeliever, you just don't know that! In fact, based on his additional (scriptural) actions, the opposite is very likely true! I could accept you saying that Nicodemus was possibly a non-believer, that would have been fair .

 

[Sue J Love]

No Ma'am, my issue is with you and your singular direct translation of a single verse, rather than the contextual observance of the entire scripture concerning Nicodemus! Based on further scriptural knowledge of Nicodemus's actions concerning Jesus, you just can't simply make a "blanket" statement that Nicodemus was a nonbeliever, you just don't know that! In fact, based on his additional (scriptural) actions, the opposite is very likely true! I could accept you saying that Nicodemus was possibly a non-believer, that would have been fair .

RJ, This was not a topical study on the life of Nicodemus. It is a song which is based off this conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. In the conversation Jesus said that Nicodemus did not accept the testimony of God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - and that he did not believe in Jesus. In fact, the implication was that, even though Nicodemus was a student of the Word, and he should have known the truth, that he refused to believe. He was not lacking for knowledge.

The words at the beginning of this writing (in prose) are introductory to the song and explain the passage of scripture. In this passage Nicodemus did not believe, so what is stated is true. It does not imply he never believed. I concede that it is possible that one day, perhaps after Jesus' death, that Nicodemus may have then believed, but I can't say that with any certainty because scripture, as far as I know, does not declare that with absolute certainty. Yet, I feel here that you are straining at a gnat and that you are missing the point of the passage of scripture. Nicodemus, although a teacher of scripture, and well-versed in the prophecies concerning Jesus, as were many Jews, refused to believe in Jesus, and so he stood condemned, at that moment in time in which this conversation took place. Jesus, nonetheless, told him the truth of the gospel, and that is what this song is about. It is about the gospel message. And, part of it is is this conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus because it shows how people can know the bible and even know about God and still not believe.

 

[RJ]

RJ, This was not a topical study on the life of Nicodemus. It is a song which is based off this conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. In the conversation Jesus said that Nicodemus did not accept the testimony of God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - and that he did not believe in Jesus. In fact, the implication was that, even though Nicodemus was a student of the Word, and he should have known the truth, that he refused to believe. He was not lacking for knowledge.

The words at the beginning of this writing (in prose) are introductory to the song and explain the passage of scripture. In this passage Nicodemus did not believe, so what is stated is true. It does not imply he never believed. I concede that it is possible that one day, perhaps after Jesus' death, that Nicodemus may have then believed, but I can't say that with any certainty because scripture, as far as I know, does not declare that with absolute certainty. Yet, I feel here that you are straining at a gnat and that you are missing the point of the passage of scripture. Nicodemus, although a teacher of scripture, and well-versed in the prophecies concerning Jesus, as were many Jews, refused to believe in Jesus, and so he stood condemned, at that moment in time in which this conversation took place. Jesus, nonetheless, told him the truth of the gospel, and that is what this song is about. It is about the gospel message. And, part of it is is this conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus because it shows how people can know the bible and even know about God and still not believe.

No, I think Nicodemus is not a good example of this. Rather, in fact, Caiaphas and the other Religious leaders of the time where, after all, they knew the Scriptures and prophecy and still denied Jesus and plotted to kill him. Nicodemus with Joseph of Arimathea petitioned to save Jesus and scripture proves he believed in Jesus very different from the others and you absolutely have no proof that he never believed. I personally am not going to approve of such "blanket" statements with out considering the entire context of the discussion!
This is not the first time that we differ on scripture; I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[RJ]

RJ, This was not a topical study on the life of Nicodemus.

Then don't make such a definitive , and final appearing, statement about his belief!