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Jesus Message and the Old Testament

Member
Please, after reading this post, if anyone knows something that I may have missed, I wish he doesn’t hesitate to correct me with explanation.


Point 1:

Didn’t Jesus ‘update’ most God’s teachings on the Old Testament and, therefore, let them be 'obsolete'?

Some of the many clear examples of this are:

[1a]- Should a Christian follow the scripture “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth” that ‘God’ addressed 'clearly' to the ancient Jews?

[1b]- Should a Christian pray as a good Jew is supposed to do; based on God’s Word on Torah? {Matthew 6:5-8}

[1c]- Did Jesus present any object/sacrifice, monument/wall, city or land as being holy?


Point 2:

Were the honourable Jewish elders, at Jesus time, following, or not, the Scripture when they, supported by their Jewish people, crucified Jesus for being a serious threat against Israel; the nation of Torah?

[2a]- If they were following God’s Word on Torah, it would be a clear sign that Jesus wasn’t doing the same to the point they saw in Him a real danger against their System, Judaism. Their System, headed by many successive prophets, was ‘indeed’ founded by God in order to prepare, on earth, some kids of humanity; as we prepare the fresh minds of our kids by telling them 'simplified' stories and guiding them by parental 'rules'. Do you think that a Christian should be different from Jesus in this respect?

[2b]- If these elders, at Jesus time, who were supposed being the ‘best’ Jews weren’t following God’s Word on Torah, it would mean that Israel that was founded by God ceased to exist on the day of Jesus crucifixion. (But the word ‘Israel’, as all other well-known words, could be used by some powerful/rich men in the world anytime they see necessary for them).


I guess these two points are enough for the time being. But, as I mentioned at the beginning, I look to learn from your personal comments anything that you knew and I missed.

Thank you.

Kerim


For instance, the Arabic translation of the word ‘disciple’ is ‘student’.
So I am actually a ‘student’ of Jesus Christ.

I hope you know that a real loving teacher (even about earthly matters) has no reason to play the leader or master.
Therefore, a real student just needs learning from his teacher; the teacher he trusts the most.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Point 1 -

Didn’t Jesus ‘update’ most God’s teachings on the Old Testament and, therefore, let them be 'obsolete'?
When I look at Matthew 5:17 I do not see what you are saying. Especially since "abolish" & "obsolete" are in accord with one another.

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

My Brother in Christ Jesus @B-A-C I'm sure would have much to add on this your first point.

Point 2 -

Were the honourable Jewish elders, at Jesus time, following, or not, the Scripture when they, supported by their Jewish people, crucified Jesus for being a serious threat against Israel; the nation of Torah?
It's never so black & white though at times it may appear so. There are layers to scripture which only by the Spirit of God can one come to understand them.

Jesus was condemned twice, but for different reasons. One is the religious one and the other the political one. The religious trial condemned Jesus for saying that He was the Son of God. In this they only had two choices to choose from. Acknowledge Him as the Son of God and so follow him, or condemn Him. As you have noticed man rarely if ever chooses the righteous path to follow; which meant in this case Jesus had to be put to death. This necessitated a political solution as well, since being under the rule of Rome, they had no authority to put anyone to death. (John 18:31)

The political one condemned Him for being a King and a threat to Rome's authority or in other words the authority of Caesar. What's the famous line that is quoted in almost every play/movie? "We have no king but Caesar".

Reasoning: Though the people did attempt/desire to Crown Him King which required Him to go away so it won't happen. (John 6:14-15) By preventing them from doing so, in part allowed for His death and Sacrifice on the Cross to happen. It happened for the atonement of our sins (Gentiles). Which I will continue with in a little bit.

Jesus knew what laid before Him and told His disciples this. (Matthew 16:21, 20:18-19) So, though being told, and shown so many miracles, and fulfilling prophecies, why did the people much less the disciples fail to see what was right in front of there eyes? Answer: To fulfill another OT prophecy as shown in John 12:39-40

"For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."


Now back to us. This was done to allow that the Gentiles could be part of this Glorious Gift. For without which we could not have been partakers. Read Romans Chapter 11 and tell me what you think of this as it pertains to both Jew & Gentile. Especially v 16-18 as seen against your comments in (2b).

With the Love of Christ Jesus Kerim.
Nick
<><
 
Loyal
Didn’t Jesus ‘update’ most God’s teachings on the Old Testament and, therefore, let them be 'obsolete'?
I think think three or four passages counts as "most of the old testament". But you are correct some things changed. The moral law stayed the law (and in some ways got harder) however the civil law (stoning people, an eye for an eye, etc...) was done away. I think I can easily come up with ten times as many things that stayed the same.

Were the honourable Jewish elders, at Jesus time, following, or not, the Scripture when they, supported by their Jewish people, crucified Jesus for being a serious threat against Israel; the nation of Torah?
A common misconception. As a matter of fact they were NOT following the Torah, but rather the Talmud and their self-made traditions.

Matt 15:1; Then some Pharisees and scribes *came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said,
Matt 15:2; "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
Matt 15:3; And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matt 15:4; "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Matt 15:5; "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
Matt 15:6; he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Matt 15:7; "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
Matt 15:8; 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Matt 15:9; 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'"

The problem with the Pharisee's wasn't that they were keeping the law, it was that weren't.

Mark 7:5; The Pharisees and the scribes *asked Him, "Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with impure hands?"
Mark 7:6; And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
Mark 7:7; 'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
Mark 7:8; "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."
Mark 7:9; He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
Mark 7:10; "For Moses said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
Mark 7:11; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
Mark 7:12; you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
Mark 7:13; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that."

Read both the passages above carefully. They were "neglecting" the commandments of God, for the sake of their "traditions".
They were "experts at setting aside the commandments" in order "to keep their traditions".
Jesus says they "invalidate the word of God" by their "traditions".

Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Not only were they putting their "traditions" above the commandments of God, they were teachings others to do the same thing.

If these elders, at Jesus time, who were supposed being the ‘best’ Jews weren’t following God’s Word on Torah, it would mean that Israel that was founded by God ceased to exist on the day of Jesus crucifixion
Hmmm... why would you think that?

[1a]- Should a Christian follow the scripture “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth” that ‘God’ addressed 'clearly' to the ancient Jews?
This would be one of the things specifically "obsoleted" as you say.

Matt 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
Matt 5:39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
Matt 5:40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Matt 5:41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
Matt 5:42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

However most of the other commandments are still in effect. Don't kill, commit adultery, honor mom and dad, etc...

[1b]- Should a Christian pray as a good Jew is supposed to do; based on God’s Word on Torah? {Matthew 6:5-8}
Matthew 6:9-13; does tell us how to pray. However the way the Pharisee's were doing it in verses 5-8; wasn't the way of the Torah.
 
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Ok just a quick point...at the time of Jesus there were two kingdoms right, Israel and Judah.

If you read the old testament the Israelites actually split into Northern and Southern...the Northern being Israel and the Southern being Judah. (Judah was one of the twelve tribes of Israel) Judah, from which the Jews came, had their centre as Jerusalem. So they had claim to the holy of holies and the temple, cos it was based there.

Jesus claim to Messiah (king) was that he was a descendant of David and from the tribe of Judah from Josephs lineage, he was born in Bethlehem, but he was actually also from Israel, on Marys side.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jesus wanted to unite the kingdom again but the Jews wouldnt have a bar of it. They snubbed Israel. But the bigger picture is he brought a spiritual kingdom of heaven to earth, and this included not only Israel...but the gentiles too which became part of Israel.

Hope this isnt confusing for you...but it really helps if you read the Bible in order. All jews were israelites but not all israelites belonged to Judah.
 
Member
Point 1 -
When I look at Matthew 5:17 I do not see what you are saying. Especially since "abolish" & "obsolete" are in accord with one another.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
My Brother in Christ Jesus @B-A-C I'm sure would have much to add on this your first point.
It seems, if I understood you well, that, to you, Jesus came not to bring us any advanced/update knowledge; He came just to confirm what was addressed to the ancient Jews. In fact, millions, if not billions, of Christians on these days see in this the Truth they are looking for.

But it happens that, from my personal rational observations and analyses, I found out that the word 'fulfill' here simply means 'update'. Any important work/project starts through preliminary steps first (this is how God created the world). And, therefore, it needs to be updated continuously and fulfilled completely if possible (as Jesus did about God’s Word).

By the way, all programs, with no exceptions, made for our PCs (and now laptops and mobiles) are not fulfilled yet ;) So we keep hearing of new update versions which add new important features and remove what is no more necessary.

I may add that, looking how you and I are, it is not surprising that we see 'Salvation' from two totally different angles:

On my side, Jesus saved me by providing me the most update knowledge on how a human can live so that his soul survives and deserves life in God's Realm even after the death of his flesh (when it returned back to the state of void; the state before its birth).

On your side, but please correct me if I am wrong, man's soul is saved by being a 'good Jew' who believes that Jesus 'fulfilled' God's Law on the Cross.

For instance, I am sorry because I can't believe in ‘magic’ by which men believe that certain things could be achieved if they repeat seriously, in their heart or loudly, appropriate words/expressions (usually taken/inspired from an ancient reference).

Point 2 -
It's never so black & white though at times it may appear so. There are layers to scripture which only by the Spirit of God can one come to understand them.
Jesus was condemned twice, but for different reasons. One is the religious one and the other the political one...

Reasoning: Though the people did attempt/desire to Crown Him King which required Him to go away so it won't happen. (John 6:14-15) By preventing them from doing so, in part allowed for His death and Sacrifice on the Cross to happen. It happened for the atonement of our sins (Gentiles). Which I will continue with in a little bit.

Jesus knew what laid before Him and told His disciples this. (Matthew 16:21, 20:18-19) So, though being told, and shown so many miracles, and fulfilling prophecies, why did the people much less the disciples fail to see what was right in front of there eyes? Answer: To fulfill another OT prophecy as shown in John 12:39-40

This brings us back to how we see the Way to/of 'Salvation'.

Naturally, your reasoning here is indeed right to anyone who likes to believe that Jesus came with a human flesh just to play the Sacrifice before the ancient Jews (and the Gentiles if you like).

On my side, I see in the scenario of Jesus crucifixion a very important event which is unique (in history) and has lasted, defying all human logic, to our days and will do to the end of time.
Some of you may recall I mentioned earlier that the greatest miracle of Jesus lives now, and even today’s atheists cannot deny it.
 
Member
However most of the other commandments are still in effect. Don't kill, commit adultery, honor mom and dad, etc...
You are totally right in this. But, I am afraid that these other commandments became obvious after Jesus Message.
I mean; could you imagine someone who is ready to help and take care of his enemies is also ready to kill for self-defence, attack other persons even sexually or neglecting his parents while he has the means to take care of them?

I personally have no sure idea about any commandment that might have been addressed to the ancient Jews. And, as you may have already guessed, I, being free and independent (as Jesus was), have no need to follow any tradition (religious or else). The relation between a true loving father and his beloved son who trusts him fully is always a personal matter which is not limited by any law and doesn't need any ritual to confirm it exits. But, by living the unconditional love towards all others and having a personal relationship with God (The Father and Jesus unified perfectly by the Holy Spirit), one cannot belong to the world anymore {John 15:19}

Matthew 6:9-13; does tell us how to pray. However the way the Pharisee's were doing it in verses 5-8; wasn't the way of the Torah.
First, I am sorry for not being expert in names and titles.
But, do you mean that Jews (of Torah or Talmud) used praying as Jesus says?
If they did, it would be clear that Jesus Message didn't give anything new about how to pray.
 
Active
Kerim did you read my post.

It will clear up some of your confusion.
When Jesus said salvation is for the jew first, He was meaning the gospel would spread from Jerusalem..because the line of kings was from Judah as God had prophesied and Judah had Jersualem in its terrirtory. Jesus was originally from Nazareth, galilee. That was not in Judah, but all that were brought up Jewish by that time Judah were the main tribe strictly adhering to the covenant via circumcision. And they had the temple in Jerusalem.it was in their tribal land of Judea. Everyone had to go there for passover.

But as Jesus demonstrated he was the only one able to keep all the law of Moses and he came in the flesh yet he was sinless. However the kingdom of heaven is entered by faith not by flesh and blood. In Hebrews its shown that even people who were not circumcised (even women) were counted as righteous if they demonstrated faith.

Jesus blood is poured out for as as the new convenant or the new testament...it is as Hebrew says a 'better' covenant. It means everyone has access to the kingdom by faith, thanks to Jesus sacrifice it doesnt depend on anyone being circumcised in the flesh...but spiritually its a circumcision of the heart.

You are correct in that the covenant is like an update...as Jesus said its a 'new' one or renewed. I make all things new...

Gods chosen people from which Jesus came, were the elect...God chose the israelites to be his holy people, a holy nation. We can see they failed miserably time and time again but these were Jesus direct ancestors.

The law was for the israelites as a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ.

We (most of us being gentiles) were never under that law...it was the jews who inherited that law and kept the traditions as they were right up to the present day...they preserved the word through scripture so we must be thankful that salvation came to them first, even though most of them would not accept it...and many do not to this day. Jesus came as the word made flesh but many still would not accept He was the son of God even though in that day He was right before their very eyes and lived amongst them.
 
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Member
Kerim did you read my post.

It will clear up some of your confusion.
When Jesus said salvation is for the jew first, He was meaning the gospel would spread from Jerusalem..because the line of kings was from Judah as God had prophesied and Judah had Jersualem in its terrirtory. Jesus was originally from Nazareth, galilee. That was not in Judah, but all that were brought up Jewish by that time Judah were the main tribe strictly adhering to the covenant via circumcision. And they had the temple in Jerusalem.it was in their tribal land of Judea. Everyone had to go there for passover.

But as Jesus demonstrated he was the only one able to keep all the law of Moses and he came in the flesh yet he was sinless. However the kingdom of heaven is entered by faith not by flesh and blood. In Hebrews its shown that even people who were not circumcised (even women) were counted as righteous if they demonstrated faith.

Jesus blood is poured out for as as the new convenant or the new testament...it is as Hebrew says a 'better' covenant. It means everyone has access to the kingdom by faith, thanks to Jesus sacrifice it doesnt depend on anyone being circumcised in the flesh...but spiritually its a circumcision of the heart.

You are correct in that the covenant is like an update...as Jesus said its a 'new' one or renewed. I make all things new...
I did and I was starting to reply your first post. But I am 'very slow' in writing (in any language) since I have to choose the best word or expression I heard of to express what I have in mind as accurately as possible. And I wrote you this, right after reading the first line of your second post. Please be patient ;) I will be back rather soon (unless there will be an urgent thing to do).
 
Active
The nation of israel....as we might see it today...is actually made up of people of faith. Jesus pretty much extended the borders to include people of all nations.

What is physically there now is pretty sad. But God wont break his promises. The blood of Jesus is still on the mercy seat. So jewish people are still there and they claim the land is their's. But God has said if my people who are called by my name humble themselves and pray I will heal their land. Hes just waiting for them to see their Messiah has come.

Many believe he will come again in future but thats a whole nother belief. Jesus does manifest himself to people who believe and makes His presence known...its just many people would rather see something in the natural but as the bible says faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

Ok cool, sorry I added more, hope am not racing ahead.
 
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Member
Ok just a quick point...at the time of Jesus there were two kingdoms right, Israel and Judah.
If you read the old testament the Israelites actually split into Northern and Southern...the Northern being Israel and the Southern being Judah. (Judah was one of the twelve tribes of Israel) Judah, from which the Jews came, had their centre as Jerusalem. So they had claim to the holy of holies and the temple, cos it was based there.

Jesus claim to Messiah (king) was that he was a descendant of David and from the tribe of Judah from Josephs lineage, he was born in Bethlehem, but he was actually also from Israel, on Marys side.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Jesus wanted to unite the kingdom again but the Jews wouldnt have a bar of it. They snubbed Israel. But the bigger picture is he brought a spiritual kingdom of heaven to earth, and this included not only Israel...but the gentiles too which became part of Israel.

Hope this isnt confusing for you...but it really helps if you read the Bible in order. All jews were israelites but not all israelites belonged to Judah.
Thank you for your interesting information.

To me in the least, God prepared the ancient Jews and Israelites for the coming of Jesus. Then Jesus came for the whole world.
The role which was given to the kingdoms, Israel and Judah, was fulfilled on the day of Jesus Crucifixion. Their existence became, therefore, no more necessary. After all, Jesus Message didn’t need any specific earthly kingdom in order to be spread and heard (actually it could be read) in all regions on earth.

I will read now your following post ;)
 
Member
I read your following posts.

I wish that just by believing that Jesus is the Living Son of God, one's soul deserves joining God's Realm for eternity.
I am afraid that even in the material world this doesn't work. For example, if someone 'do' believe in 'science' and in some 'great scientists' this doesn't imply that he has something to do with any of the applied scientific works.

Also in the real world, for someone (sane and mature) to join a certain group of people (that usually suits his nature and needs), he needs proving first to the men in charge of this group (social, sportive, religious or political) that he has their same hope (belief). I mean; it is a 'prerequisite', for the men in charge in creating and supervising a well-organized group, to find out first a notion on which the group will be based on. Obviously, it is always possible to gather people in formal groups in the name of Jesus. But, Jesus didn't found or even approved any formal group; after all, His Message of True Love (which is beyond all rules) is addressed to individuals only. For a group of people to survive, it has to be controlled by rules instead that are usually supported by great speeches about love, peace, freedom and/or democracy... etc..

About the Promised Land, I think that the today's white and black Americans are real fortunate; God didn't promise the American Natives the land they had just a few centuries ago :D
Talking about today's Israel, I wonder if you know that every Jew exported to live in Palestine/Israel has to agree and sign up first that he is an Israeli soldier before any other civil title he may have. I mean; the today's Israel is actually a base created by the world's Elite (it happens that most of them live in USA now) to serve the plans of the 'New World Order'. I hope this explains why most of the Jewish/Israeli people in Palestine had to live in a continuous state of alert since many decades instead of occupying all lands in Palestine (the great Iraq was invaded and occupied in less than a month). Even the Jewish Syrian families were instructed to move to Israel though they were living in total peace and harmony among all other Syrians (Muslims and Christians of all sects, also atheists) as it is the case now after liberating the city. I bet you never heard about Syria that was before March 2011 ;) By the way, you also won't hear from any news agency that after 5 years of terror war, the Jewish properties in the old city (in Aleppo) were not touched while all other ones surrounding them were destroyed completely. Isn't wonderful how the 'New World Order' works behind the scenes... but I leave it for another thread ;)
 
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Staff Member
It seems, if I understood you well, that, to you, Jesus came not to bring us any advanced/update knowledge; He came just to confirm what was addressed to the ancient Jews. In fact, millions, if not billions, of Christians on these days see in this the Truth they are looking for.
Does providing you greater understanding of what I initially wrote, since it seems you didn’t understand it, mean that I have changed my initial thought?

If you can understand this, then you will understand what I wrote.

Your succeeding sentence is saying this as well, with the use of the word “update”, but I’d not use that word, but rather “clarity/clarify” instead. The only issue I would have is in the need to continuously update. Because “clarity” doesn’t change but rather “expands” upon what is already there. It will not be in disagreement, but always in harmony. We may not always see the completeness of it as was the case in Jesus’ day, but with Holy Spirit guidance we have been given, we have One who can correct our deficiency/lack of understanding.

But it happens that, from my personal rational observations and analyses, I found out that the word 'fulfill' here simply means 'update'. Any important work/project starts through preliminary steps first (this is how God created the world). And, therefore, it needs to be updated continuously and fulfilled completely if possible (as Jesus did about God’s Word).

By the way, all programs, with no exceptions, made for our PCs (and now laptops and mobiles) are not fulfilled yet
So we keep hearing of new update versions which add new important features and remove what is no more necessary.
The analogy fails for me. The reason it does may have nothing to do with you because using examples that have familiar contextual significance readily come to mind, which many use in presenting such analogies. Type of audience is also another reason for doing so. Which I truly hope is the case for you. I state this as such a fashion for the reason that has more to do with the reality that there are people in the world today, who believe that we are no more than computer programs, or apps if you will, that have been written and perform until they come to some self-realization.


I may add that, looking how you and I are, it is not surprising that we see 'Salvation' from two totally different angles:

On my side, Jesus saved me by providing me the most update knowledge on how a human can live so that his soul survives and deserves life in God's Realm even after the death of his flesh (when it returned back to the state of void; the state before its birth).

On your side, but please correct me if I am wrong, man's soul is saved by being a 'good Jew' who believes that Jesus 'fulfilled' God's Law on the Cross.

For instance, I am sorry because I can't believe in ‘magic’ by which men believe that certain things could be achieved if they repeat seriously, in their heart or loudly, appropriate words/expressions (usually taken/inspired from an ancient reference).
That last sentence of yours makes me smile…..Nor do I. :)

As far as seeing Salvation differently……

I see it by God’s Grace.

If you see it by Works, then you would be correct in your statement “from two totally different angles:” indeed.


This brings us back to how we see the Way to/of 'Salvation'.

Naturally, your reasoning here is indeed right to anyone who likes to believe that Jesus came with a human flesh just to play the Sacrifice before the ancient Jews (and the Gentiles if you like).

On my side, I see in the scenario of Jesus crucifixion a very important event which is unique (in history) and has lasted, defying all human logic, to our days and will do to the end of time.

Some of you may recall I mentioned earlier that the greatest miracle of Jesus lives now, and even today’s atheists cannot deny it.
Not “just to play the Sacrifice”!

To say it as such is to make light of His Sacrifice!!!! If you believe this, then shame on you, for surely I do not, nor have I ever implied this in anything that I have written unless taken out of context! Righteous anger? You betcha! :(

But then true Love puts up with a lot more than words meant to mislead. :)

I do believe that Jesus was a sacrifice and one that was foretold in Isaiah, but this does not mean that I exclude additional purposes.

Remember my quote:

It's never so black & white though at times it may appear so. There are layers to scripture which only by the Spirit of God can one come to understand them.
Now the verses:

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth.

John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Specific and not just implied are:

Ephesians 5:2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hebrews 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Now I do have a question for you. :)

Do you believe as I mentioned in my previous post concerning the religious trial, that Jesus was/is/will be (To minimize confusion His Eternal Existence. :) ) the Son of God, God Incarnate?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
 
Active
Kerim I dont think you understand that belief is actually important to God, as unbelievers will NOT inherit the kingdom. Its not mere belief, as it will become faith as its by the grace of God but belief on our part is actually the beginnings of a faithful walk in the Lord.

Christians are believers yes but not merely believers we are doers!
Please dont insult your brothers and sisters in christ by implying that we arent!

As for modern Israel yes it has problems. I dont live there so cant begin to describe what issues it has.,,but the holy land belongs to God, its just sad to see people still fighting over it.

Praying for you kerim to have an understanding of what Jesus did for not just you, but everyone who believes in Him.

Jesus did not 'play' sacrifice. He wasnt an actor. He really went through pain and suffering on our behalf..Isaiah 51 prophesied this. You can ask Him about it, truly. If you go to Jerusalem today, well good luck, but you can see the evidence, I mean christians get persecuted there everyday, especially arab christians.
 
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Christians are believers yes but not merely believers we are doers!
Please dont insult your brothers and sisters in christ by implying that we arent!
Bold mine.

I am sorry for not being clear to the point you had to use the word 'insult'.

For instance, when I say "I don't judge" I mean; I personally don't see people as good or bad, or as right or wrong. I see them just different living beings who are all created by God so that each of them fulfil a certain role in life. So even the ones who are created to play my enemies they helped me better feed my soul by living God's Love {Matthew 5:45}.

By the way, though I was replying you here, you couldn't not seeing me as if I am addressing certain communities instead of you only ;) But your reaction is natural as we will see, if I will have the time, on another thread titled "The crucial difference between male and female". I will take the opportunity that you are a sincere brave female and your comments will surely enrich the conversation.

For instance, I used being insulted when the hearer, usually in a forum, had nothing to add rationally to the facts I might have observed and presented.

On the other hand, I also learnt that someone may hear me insulting him, if not worse, without my knowledge. For example, being good/humble (when I had to be strong) made some persons real upset of me to the point they tried sending me to prison (local or in a desert) and even to bring me the penalty of death. They accused me, by surprise, of things of which I had no idea. On the same day of each accusation and without defending myself in any way, the situation was solved and I returned to my normal life. Thanks to those who had to play my enemies, I had the chance to personally witness the Holy Spirit at work; the way Jesus described.
 
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Praying for you kerim to have an understanding of what Jesus did for not just you, but everyone who believes in Him.

Jesus did not 'play' sacrifice. He wasnt an actor. He really went through pain and suffering on our behalf..Isaiah 51 prophesied this. You can ask Him about it, truly. If you go to Jerusalem today, well good luck, but you can see the evidence, I mean christians get persecuted there everyday, especially arab christians.
Jesus wasn't an actor for sure. An actor has to follow the director's instructions to play his given role.
So perhaps I will succeed better, on another thread "The greatest living miracle of Jesus'", in showing the great importance of God's scenario as it was presented to the world on the day of Crucifixion. Well, the today's living miracle that could be witnessed by anyone took birth on that day.

By the way, do you have an idea when, for example, the persecution of the today's Christians in Middle East, started and how?
I am afraid that, as in the case of Jesus, some persons serving the World's Elite were instructed to play the role of Judas Iscariot. They kissed the Christians in Middle East by urging the world to save them so that their persecution could look as being natural later. But it seems that these actors who, most of them claim being Christian, didn't take seriously (or never heard) what Jesus said {Matthew 16:18}. But, if they succeeded (or will succeed) in creating their Islamist State on Jesus land (from where Jesus Message was spread to all over the world) as they created the Jewish/Israeli State in Palestine (where Jesus was rejected first), they would prove without any doubt that Jesus was just another famous deceiver as they are. This is why I didn't flee though the well-armed 'foreign' long dark beards of Allah who were sent under the pretext to save Syrians from a tyrant (as requested worldwide in March 2011 first by... you know) became at a distance of about 100m from where I live (in a small apartment on a roof). On this day, they had to withdraw and return back into the old city till their senders decided, a few months later, to move them outside the city. I wonder why God postponed my persecution on that day.

Note ;)
The 'World's Elite' is the expression I personally use to denote those who are created to play the Top Followers of the World's King; the King of the World's Deceivers; the world's most powerful/rich men and their servants.
 
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Now I do have a question for you. :)
Do you believe as I mentioned in my previous post concerning the religious trial, that Jesus was/is/will be the Son of God, God Incarnate?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><
As I mentioned already, Jesus, unlike any other person in the world and history, knows all about me, even 2000 years ago. I also discovered that all my observations of the real world (on the ground, far from the great speeches) were mentioned by Jesus already. Based on my human logic, only my Maker (and of the world, of course) has such knowledge. So, naturally, I believed since many decades that Jesus is indeed the Living Son of God. On the other hand, how could I have 'faith' in Jesus while I know Him as I know myself ;) I mean, as far as I learnt, faith is based on hope and/or fear. In my case, Jesus helped me know, by His Divine Perfect Teachings (the Truth), how to live (the Way) without any confusion or fear (the Light).

I hope I succeeded in answering your question.

The question is now: How each of us, you and I, perceive 'God' as revealed by Jesus :)
 
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Jesus wasn't an actor for sure. An actor has to follow the director's instructions to play his given role.
So perhaps I will succeed better, on another thread "The greatest living miracle of Jesus'", in showing the great importance of God's scenario as it was presented to the world on the day of Crucifixion. Well, the today's living miracle that could be witnessed by anyone took birth on that day.

By the way, do you have an idea when, for example, the persecution of the today's Christians in Middle East, started and how?
I am afraid that, as in the case of Jesus, some persons serving the World's Elite were instructed to play the role of Judas Iscariot. They kissed the Christians in Middle East by urging the world to save them so that their persecution could look as being natural later. But it seems that these actors who, most of them claim being Christian, didn't take seriously (or never heard) what Jesus said {Matthew 16:18}. But, if they succeeded (or will succeed) in creating their Islamist State on Jesus land (from where Jesus Message was spread to all over the world) as they created the Jewish/Israeli State in Palestine (where Jesus was rejected first), they would prove without any doubt that Jesus was just another famous deceiver as they are. This is why I didn't flee though the well-armed 'foreign' long dark beards of Allah who were sent under the pretext to save Syrians from a tyrant (as requested worldwide in March 2011 first by... you know) became at a distance of about 100m from where I live (in a small apartment on a roof). On this day, they had to withdraw and return back into the old city till their senders decided, a few months later, to move them outside the city. I wonder why God postponed my persecution on that day.

Note ;)
The 'World's Elite' is the expression I personally use to denote those who are created to play the Top Followers of the World's King; the King of the World's Deceivers; the world's most powerful/rich men and their servants.
Sorrry I dont really know when the persecutions of todays christians in the middle east started I do know from the bible persecutions have happened ever there ever since Jesus crucifixtion. Stephen was the first martyr.

1948 seemed like a year that was significant or was it 1967 I dont know I wasnt even born then.
Many say they are jews but are not...I remember someone asking me if they had jewish blood could they just have a free pass into israel. Im like um no, I dont think it works like that..are you circumcised..? I dont know how they justify people living there I think it goes through the mums side if they raised someone kosher but its all very confusing and political.

Personally I dont know any israelis, but some christians are friendly with them. When israelis come over here to nz they have a reputation of disregarding health and safety, many climb mountains in bad conditions and end up having to be rescued by helicopter cos they are so gung ho, having been drafted into their military.

I dont really understand it all, I dont live there, but one of my friends did go visit and had to deal with all the checkpoints etc. its a volatile area, always has been. Tourists seem to be safe though...I think many countries including my own encourage tourism cos it brings money into the country. It seems sad though to be loved and shown hospitality just cos you have money and can afford to go there and stay in hotels etc you have to pay for. Its not free.

If someones being deceptive and pretending to be someone they are not then yea. Thats not good.

Judas was like that. But people like him are anti-christs. Many anti christs have gone out into the world with an intent to deceive and lead christians astray.

Not sure about the jewish blood test to determine who is jewish but christians have a blood test of our own.

We are saved by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony.

If you have a personal relationship with Jesus and He is your Lord and Saviour then welcome to His church. I just say WE as in christians collectively as the body of Christ. While it may seem christians are few in number, actually the promise has been as it was to abraham that his descendents would be as many as stars in the sky and sand on the shore..and in revelation....of every nation and tongue.

I am not ashamed of the gospel, or Jesus name. Just cos there are some people who take His name in vain doesnt change who Jesus or God is, or the faithful remnant who havent bowed the knee to any other idols.
 
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Sorrry I dont really know when the persecutions of todays christians in the middle east started I do know from the bible persecutions have happened ever there ever since Jesus crucifixtion. Stephen was the first martyr.

1948 seemed like a year that was significant or was it 1967 I dont know I wasnt even born then.
Many say they are jews but are not...I remember someone asking me if they had jewish blood could they just have a free pass into israel. Im like um no, I dont think it works like that..are you circumcised..? I dont know how they justify people living there I think it goes through the mums side if they raised someone kosher but its all very confusing and political.

Personally I dont know any israelis, but some christians are friendly with them. When israelis come over here to nz they have a reputation of disregarding health and safety, many climb mountains in bad conditions and end up having to be rescued by helicopter cos they are so gung ho, having been drafted into their military.

I dont really understand it all, I dont live there, but one of my friends did go visit and had to deal with all the checkpoints etc. its a volatile area, always has been. Tourists seem to be safe though...I think many countries including my own encourage tourism cos it brings money into the country. It seems sad though to be loved and shown hospitality just cos you have money and can afford to go there and stay in hotels etc you have to pay for. Its not free.
To me in the least, whatever is happening in the world is God's Will.
But Jesus helped me discover the world, actually 'the world He created', as it is in reality so that I can better protect my soul and feed it properly in 'any' situation. So you will never see me defending or attacking any group, community, country or system (religious or political). But this didn't prevent me anytime to look for the truth which could be hidden in a story made public (mainly to be heard by the world's multitudes). And I do it just for myself, so that I won't see a naïve/confused person every time I look at a mirror :) How I do it? Well, Jesus reminded me a simple, but very effective, method that never fails {Matthew 7:16}. In fact, no matter how good the roots of a tree might be hidden underground, their real origin will be revealed when their first fruits will show up.
 
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Well stories are just that...stories.

I only go by what people I personally know tell me of their lives, because things reported in the media arent necessarily true. The world is not really our concern anyway...keep your eyes fixed on Jesus.

If you know anything about grafting, the roots of the tree are ancient but the fruits are often grafted in branches. And those branches that were cut off can actually still be grafted in.
 
Member
Not sure about the jewish blood test to determine who is jewish but christians have a blood test of our own.

We are saved by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony.

If you have a personal relationship with Jesus and He is your Lord and Saviour then welcome to His church. I just say WE as in christians collectively as the body of Christ. While it may seem christians are few in number, actually the promise has been as it was to abraham that his descendents would be as many as stars in the sky and sand on the shore..and in revelation....of every nation and tongue.

I am not ashamed of the gospel, or Jesus name. Just cos there are some people who take His name in vain doesnt change who Jesus or God is, or the faithful remnant who havent bowed the knee to any other idols.
The blood test likely reveals the origin of one's flesh. This test has, therefore, nothing to do with the human living soul which is born of the Spirit (God's Spirit; the Holy Spirit). On the other hand, to those who are born of the flesh only, the blood test gives them the chance to join a community/system which is providing good opportunities to its members which are not provided by the community they used living in.

About Abraham and the Jewish/Israeli Prophets, Jesus was clear {Matthew 11:11}. Indeed, only their living fleshes were great; they, unlike Jesus, were leaders who were highly respected by their people and were even great kings. Their role was to prepare their peoples (God's kids of humanity) for the coming Message of Jesus which is addressed instead to the evolved humans (the adults of humanity) who might be born of the Spirit too. So it isn't surprising that the ancient Jews who used seeing God as being just a Supreme King looking for followers and slaves (same for the today's Muslims) couldn't see in Jesus Message anything good or interesting for their living fleshes (mainly in His updated image of God which contradicts God's instructions that are embedded in every living flesh). By the way, since 'all' humans are born of the flesh, Abraham's descendants are, even now, almost as many as the stars in the sky (unless God created Abraham's blood only ;) ).

For instance, all Muslim Syrians (of any sect) whom I had the chance to meet, or live with, knew from me that their Allah cannot exist in my reality (and, obviously, I also gave them my logical reasoning). The worst situation, I had for this, was hearing someone telling me something like:
"I am very sorry for you, Karim, you will have to end up in Hell while I will be in Allah's paradise. I will miss you there".
But, truth be said, I am not sure about the other Muslims who are living outside Syria, mainly in countries whose men on power have to play the close allies to the US administration; as Saudi Arabia and UAE, for a few.
 

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