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Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit??

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Hi guys,
I found this website that really helpful. But then I came across this article which is very different from what I would think. Am I being mislead by this article or I'm wrong and this is right? I'm always taught that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit is one and they are equal to each other. Can someone point me in the right direction please. Thank you. This is the article right below. And I have one friend losing her faith after reading Proverb, how can I help her? All advices are welcome.

Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit

In John 15: 26 and 16: 7 we can read that Jesus promised he would send the Holy Spirit. It is logical to conclude that the one who sends is greater than the one who is sent. An example of this was given when God the Father sent Jesus to the world. Also, Jesus himself teaches this concept in John 13: 16 when he says that those who are sent, (in this case the apostles ), are not greater than the one who sends them.

As we will see in the first two verses mentioned, Jesus spoke as having authority over the Holy Spirit. Speaking in such a way, he shows us that he is the Lord of the Holy Spirit. If he were not, he wouldn't have said, "I will send him", but instead, he would have said, "I will ask him to come" or "I will pray for him to come"

"Verily, verily, I say unto you: The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." ( John 13: 16 )

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" ( John 15: 26 )

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." ( John 16: 7 )

These two last verses show the authority with which Jesus talked when referring to the Holy Spirit. It is not the same language he used when addressing the Father. In this case he used the words "pray" or "ask". It is evident that the relation between Jesus and the Father God is different from that of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Let's see now how he talked about his Father God.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" ( John 14: 16 )

"At that day ye shall ask in my name, and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you" ( John 16: 26 )

"I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." ( John 17: 9 )

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil" ( John 17: 15 )

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word " ( John 17: 20 )

We can conclude from the passages we have read, that Jesus has authority over the Holy Spirit, to give him orders. This is an unquestionable sign that Jesus is superior to the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not say, "I will ask the Holy Spirit" nor "I will pray that the Holy Spirit", but instead he says, "I will send the Holy Spirit", as if he were talking to someone who is obedient to him.

Thank you guys, Merry Christmas what a wonderful day to celebrate our Christ's birthday. :icon_biggrin:
 
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Member
I believe that God is one in divine essence and nature; equal in unsurpassed and limitless power, love and knowledge, etc, but I also see in the Scriptures that the three members of the Godhead while cooperating fully in matters of creation and salvation, etc, have different roles.

Heirarchy, or authority, does not mean that someone is a lesser person, or less powerful in themselves, if they are lower on the chain. This is a flawed human way of thinking, in fact it often takes a bigger person to submit and let someone else have their way - this is the Christian way - the spiritual way. (Not that that scenario applies to God.)

Jesus gave up all his heavenly rights and came to earth as a helpless baby to eventually die a cruel death in order to rescue us poor human souls from certain damnation, and yet he is Lord above all Lords and King above all Kings!!!

God's thoughts and ways are different from ours. In God's Kingdom, as you stated, if we want to be great, we must be a servant to all!

The argument presented on that website is presented from a very worldly, unspiritual perspective.

I hope some of my thoughts help

:love:

evangeline
 
Member
Look, Seek and ye shall find...

I'm not going to go into great detail here. Your original teachers were right.

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.John 14:16-17

[Below link was approved by Chad in accordance with Talk-Jesus rules]

http://www.talkjesus.com/showthread.php?t=4545&highlight="Trinity"
 
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Member
Hey BHL,

Can you give us more information as to what it was about Proverbs that shook your friends faith?

:love:

evangeline
 
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Member
No..

You edited the qusetion you asked me out of your post, evangeline, so I am mentioning it here so the readers of this thread know what this response of mine was about.

evangeline had asked me above if I believed that the Holy Spirit was a lesser person of the Trinity.


No! I believe they are some how all equal but the vastness of God is more than our little minds can comprehend for example think on this:

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt.12:31-=32

evangeline said:
Hi Yeshua,
Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is less powerful or in some way unequal or inferior to God the Father or Jesus Christ?
 
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Member
Hello brothers and sisters,
I know that this is base on wordly, but the Bible is God's word so it's good to meditate upon it. So in someway this guy have some very good point. But Thank you for pointing me to the right direction. I know it's hard to understand God's Trinity. Can there be some misunderstanding because of the translation?? Thank you Yeshue and Evangeline for responding.

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt.12:31-=32"

Yes Yeshua, I know we have to respect and love the Holy Ghost and must not blasphemy. But this doesn't stated that they are equal. Anyhow, this doesn't change my Love for JESUS CHRIST, just want to learn more.

"Can you give us more information as to what it was about Proverbs that shook your friends faith?"

Hi Evangeline, my friend is going through some tough time. I really don't understand myself. She seem like she's unwilling to express her feeling. She say that the more she read the Bible the more she get confuse and lost her faith. I'm trying to help her, and tell her to write down the question that she's confuse when she reading. And she said the most confusing book is Proverb. However, she do believe that there's a God, but very confuse right now. :smile: Do you have any idea Evangeline?? tell me if you do.

God Blesses!
 
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Member
Evangeline and Yeshua are correct. The Trinity is not hierarchical.

One of the benefits of the Internet is that you can access information from millions of sources, many of them very intelligent and well-meaning. Unfortunately, intelligent and well-meaning doesn't equal correct. Always trust God to reveal the truth to you through scripture.
 
Member
Hi guys,

Thanks the Lord, I have asked a pastor and he have get me through. All are equal and all are one. Refer to Esai 9:5 for equality of Jesus Christ to the Father. Refer to Mathew 48:16 for equality of the Holy Ghost to the Fathers. And refer to John 3 are 1. Amen. God Blesses Brothers and Sisters.
 
Member
BecuzHeLives said:
Hi guys,
I found this website that really helpful. But then I came across this article which is very different from what I would think. Am I being mislead by this article or I'm wrong and this is right? I'm always taught that The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit is one and they are equal to each other. Can someone point me in the right direction please. Thank you. This is the article right below. And I have one friend losing her faith after reading Proverb, how can I help her? All advices are welcome.

Jesus is greater than the Holy Spirit

In John 15: 26 and 16: 7 we can read that Jesus promised he would send the Holy Spirit. It is logical to conclude that the one who sends is greater than the one who is sent. An example of this was given when God the Father sent Jesus to the world. Also, Jesus himself teaches this concept in John 13: 16 when he says that those who are sent, (in this case the apostles ), are not greater than the one who sends them.

As we will see in the first two verses mentioned, Jesus spoke as having authority over the Holy Spirit. Speaking in such a way, he shows us that he is the Lord of the Holy Spirit. If he were not, he wouldn't have said, "I will send him", but instead, he would have said, "I will ask him to come" or "I will pray for him to come"

"Verily, verily, I say unto you: The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." ( John 13: 16 )

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me" ( John 15: 26 )

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away, for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." ( John 16: 7 )

These two last verses show the authority with which Jesus talked when referring to the Holy Spirit. It is not the same language he used when addressing the Father. In this case he used the words "pray" or "ask". It is evident that the relation between Jesus and the Father God is different from that of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Let's see now how he talked about his Father God.

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever" ( John 14: 16 )

"At that day ye shall ask in my name, and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you" ( John 16: 26 )

"I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." ( John 17: 9 )

"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil" ( John 17: 15 )

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word " ( John 17: 20 )

We can conclude from the passages we have read, that Jesus has authority over the Holy Spirit, to give him orders. This is an unquestionable sign that Jesus is superior to the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not say, "I will ask the Holy Spirit" nor "I will pray that the Holy Spirit", but instead he says, "I will send the Holy Spirit", as if he were talking to someone who is obedient to him.

Thank you guys, Merry Christmas what a wonderful day to celebrate our Christ's birthday. :icon_biggrin:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal members of the Triune Godhead. They do not exercise supervisory power over each other as we understand supervisory power. There is no "pecking order" in the Blessed Trinity. They work together in perfect harmony, a concept we cannot fathom because we are imperfect beings.

SLE
 
Member
We..

We are happy for you! AMEN

H A P P Y!

C H R I S T'S

B I R T H D A Y

for

YOU and YOURS!


BecuzHeLives said:
Hi guys,
Thanks the Lord, I have asked a pastor and he have get me through. All are equal and all are one. Refer to Esai 9:5 for equality of Jesus Christ to the Father. Refer to Mathew 48:16 for equality of the Holy Ghost to the Fathers. And refer to John 3 are 1. Amen. God Blesses Brothers and Sisters.
 
Member
SpiritLedEd said:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal members of the Triune Godhead. They do not exercise supervisory power over each other as we understand supervisory power. There is no "pecking order" in the Blessed Trinity. They work together in perfect harmony, a concept we cannot fathom because we are imperfect beings.
SLE
1Co 15:24 Then after Christ has destroyed all powers and forces, the end will come, and he will give the kingdom to God the Father.
1Co 15:25 Christ will rule until he puts all his enemies under his power,
1Co 15:26 and the last enemy he destroys will be death.
1Co 15:27 When the Scriptures say that he will put everything under his power, they don't include God. It was God who put everything under the power of Christ.
1Co 15:28 After everything is under the power of God's Son, he will put himself under the power of God, who put everything under his Son's power. Then God will mean everything to everyone.

Christ is given all power in heaven and earth, till the end comes, then God the father will be all in all. And the man Christ Jesus will be the lamb. Jesus is very God and very man, all at the same time.

1Co 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

As you said brother, this is hard to understand.

God bless
 
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Member
Dear BHL,

I think the best advice I can give you is to pray for your friend and let her know that you are available to help her. Perhaps she will go with you to Church?

If the Book of Proverbs is confusing her maybe she should read a different book of the Bible. I think the Gospel of Mark and the Gospel of John are good places to start.

Merry Christmas

:love:

evangeline
 
Member
Thank you Evangeline she is getting better. God Blesses. She don't live around me that's y it's so hard to help. I think the best way is just pray for her.
 
Member
Hello all:
What I wonder about the Trinity is: where does the Bible descibe the Godhead as "three individual people"? I think that Jesus is a manifestation, Yahweh come in the flesh, i.e., the Son is the Father. For instance:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Doesn't this passage say that the Son is the Father?

Jhn 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Doesn't this indicate that the Son is the Holy Ghost?

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Matthew passage indicates that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have one name, and the Acts passage indicates that that name is Jesus Christ.

So what about when Jesus prayed to the Father? I think that He is, for lack of a better term, putting on an act to show us what we are supposed to do.

Mat 3:13-15 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Baptism was part of the plan of salvation, so Jesus was baptized. Praying is part of the plan of salvation, so Jesus prayed.

In Yahweh's Love

Christ's Serf
 
Member
Has any seen the other side of this life? I mean to say has anybody died and returned to tell what is on the other side? This is not something which one would readily repeat to someone living even if one knew what lies ahead.However let us look at the difference between body and spirit. The body is made up of skin and bone and is frail to say the least when it comes to being broken or distroyed. It has fingers and a thumb and is used as a tool to aid in hunting and gathering of food and the such for sustaince to live and procreate and so forth until old age sets in and the end of that type of life has arived and death occures. That makes the body look very simple which it is. Now we look at the spirit and what do we know? Nothing is known for sure about this subject except the hindsight about the person who was in the body. What was he or she like? What was their beliefs and disbeliefs; their strengths and weaknesses? Once the body is removed what is left? Where did their spirit go? Better yet where did their spirit come from before they received their body? Was it like a drop of water coming from a large lake in the center of the universe? Will it return to that same lake afterward and be One with that Great body of water(or Spirit?)again? You tell me. If that drop of water did not come from that Great lake then it will not return to it. Once you pass from here to there you will not have a thumb,you will not have a set of vocal cords to make sounds with,you will not have physical movement and the like,so how will you do things? Will your spirit move you or will you fail to comunicate at all? Seems funny to think about such nonesence doesn't it? But you tell me if we have made our creator into our immage or did He make us in His immage? God is one,if we are saved then we will be one with Him(and one with each other) through the Love of Jesus Christ and we have been taught and lead by the Holy Spirit to this end. God is TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT they who worship Him must worship Him in TRUTH and SPIRIT. This is what Jesus Christ said in the book of St. John. MGBY(May God Bless You)
 
Member
Has any seen the other side of this life? I mean to say has anybody died and returned to tell what is on the other side? This is not something which one would readily repeat to someone living even if one knew what lies ahead.However let us look at the difference between body and spirit. The body is made up of skin and bone and is frail to say the least when it comes to being broken or distroyed. It has fingers and a thumb and is used as a tool to aid in hunting and gathering of food and the such for sustaince to live and procreate and so forth until old age sets in and the end of that type of life has arived and death occures. That makes the body look very simple which it is. Now we look at the spirit and what do we know? Nothing is known for sure about this subject except the hindsight about the person who was in the body. What was he or she like? What was their beliefs and disbeliefs; their strengths and weaknesses? Once the body is removed what is left? Where did their spirit go? Better yet where did their spirit come from before they received their body? Was it like a drop of water coming from a large lake in the center of the universe? Will it return to that same lake afterward and be One with that Great body of water(or Spirit?)again? You tell me. If that drop of water did not come from that Great lake then it will not return to it. Once you pass from here to there you will not have a thumb,you will not have a set of vocal cords to make sounds with,you will not have physical movement and the like,so how will you do things? Will your spirit move you or will you fail to comunicate at all? Seems funny to think about such nonesence doesn't it? But you tell me if we have made our creator into our immage or did He make us in His immage? God is one,if we are saved then we will be one with Him(and one with each other) through the Love of Jesus Christ and we have been taught and lead by the Holy Spirit to this end. God is TRUTH AND THE SPIRIT they who worship Him must worship Him in TRUTH and SPIRIT. This is what Jesus Christ said in the book of St. John. MGBY(May God Bless You)
 
Member
There are several scriptures which show how all three persons of the godhead cooperate with each other with equality.

My favorite at the moment is in Ephesians 2:18 -
For through Him (Christ) we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access to the Father, by one Spirit. It is because of Jesus work on the cross that we can come to the Father, and it is the Holy Spirit that provides the spiritual "connection."

All three members of the Godhead were involved in Creation, in the resurrection of Jesus from death and in our salvation. They were all present at Jesus baptism too.

In the following verses all three members of the Godhead are mentioned in regards to salvation.
2 corinthians 3:18
Titus 3:4-7
1 Peter 1:2
Jude 20b-21

Also several passages in the Old Testament which are about Yahweh are more specifically speaking about Jesus. Yahweh (Jehovah or LORD) is three persons in one, that is, He is almighty true God.

For instance, in Isaiah 40:3 it speaks about preparing the way for the LORD (Yahweh). When we compare this verse with Mark 1:3 we readily see that it is Jesus who is the LORD and had the way prepared for him by John the Baptist.

In Joel 2:32 it says that whoever calls upon the Name of the LORD (Yahweh) will be saved. This verse is reiterated by Peter in Acts 2:21, and Paul in Romans 10:13. Both apostles are clearly referring to Jesus as the LORD.

In Isaiah 6:1-10 we read about the marvellous vision that Isaiah had revealing the glory of the LORD (Yahweh). John tells us in John 12:40&41 that this vision revealed the Glory of Jesus.

In Isaiah 44:6, Yahweh refers to Himself as the First and the Last (the Alpha and the Omega. In Revelation chapter 1 Jesus is called the Alpha and the Omega, in verse 8, but it is especially clear in verse 17

In Zechariah 12:10 the LORD (Yahweh) is saying that “they will look on Me whom they have pierced.“ This is obviously Jesus speaking. (Psalm 22:16; John 19:34) This passage from Zechariah appears again in Revelation and is clearly about Jesus Christ.

The Scriptures say that we should worship no other gods beside Yahweh. (Exodus 20:3) Yet from scripture we can see that Jesus Christ is worshipped eternally, further proving His deity and place in the Godhead. (Philippians 2:10-11; Revelation 5:9-14)

As Yahweh, Jesus is eternal, having all the essential and moral attributes of God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Even on earth, in human form, Jesus was the image of the invisible God; the exact representation of God’s nature. (Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3) He is not some sort of demi-god or manifestation, but in him dwells the fullness of deity in bodily form. (Colossians 2:9)

The Holy Spirit is not the Son. Both the Father and the Son can send the Spirit. The verse you mentioned John 14:16 speaks of another helper, that is, one other than Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is a "person." In all correct Bible translations he is referred to using masculine pronouns such as "he" or "his" and NOT "it."

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. 2 Corinthians 14:14

:love:
evangeline
 
Member
All three members of the Godhead were involved in Creation, in the resurrection of Jesus from death and in our salvation. They were all present at Jesus baptism too.
I agree with this, but my question is: where specifically does it say that the "members of the Godhead" are separate people? I agree that the Father is a person, the Son is a person, the Spirit is a person; but are they different people?

For instance, here is one of the verses that you quoted:

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Here is the preceding verse:

2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

You see, even though it is the "Spirit of the Lord", it is also the Lord.

The verse you mentioned John 14:16 speaks of another helper, that is, one other than Jesus Christ.
But Jesus later identifies Himself as that Comforter in verse 18:

"but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

Even on earth, in human form, Jesus was the image of the invisible God; the exact representation of God’s nature. (Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:3) He is not some sort of demi-god or manifestation, but in him dwells the fullness of deity in bodily form. (Colossians 2:9)
Doesn't "the exact representation of God’s nature" qualify as a manifestation?

To be clear, I do believe that Jesus is Yahweh. I just question the whole "three persons in one" idea. Is there anywhere that the words "three persons" is used to describe Yahweh?

Christ's Serf
 
Member
In accurate Bible translations there is no verse that directly says that God (Yahweh) is made up of three "persons." It is only implied by many scriptures, however when these scriptures are looked at objectively, they consistently teach about three "persons." With many aspects of theology, the concepts are revealed gradually, i.e. you get a hint of them in the Old Testament and then they become clearer throughout the New Testament.

One thing that did cause me some confusion in the past is the many ways that the Holy Spirit is referred to: the Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of God, Spirit of Truth, etc, they are all titles of the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps the clearest illustration of the Godhead being made up three separate but unified "persons" is the Baptism of Jesus. Jesus is on earth as a human being, the Father's voice is heard clearly from heaven and the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus in the form of a dove to anoint him for earthly ministry. (Matthew 3:16-17; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:21-23; John 1:32-34)

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 is not as helpful as I thought it was, as it referrs to the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of the Lord) and Jesus, but not the Father. (In the New Testament Jesus is mostly called Lord and occasionally God, whereas the Father is mostly called God and occasionally called Lord.)

I think when John 14:15-21, John 15:26 and John 16:7-16 are read through it becomes very clear that the Holy Spirit is another "person" to Christ. It is also clear that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are unified in such a way as we should be with them too!!!! John 14:20-21

The Godhead is somewhat of a mystery that our human minds cannot possibly fully comprehend, but I do believe that the New Testament consistently referrs to three distinct yet unified "persons" with cooperative and overlapping roles that are still unique. For instance both the Holy Spirit and Jesus are called intercessors, but the Holy Spirit intercedes from within us, while Jesus intecedes for us at the right hand of God the Father. Compare Romans 8:26-27 with Romans 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25.

I don't know if this furthers my point, but as you know Jesus instructed his disciples to Baptize believers in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit - One God, Three "persons."

A very interesting topic this...one that has been studied and debated throughout church history by people much more knowledgable and qualified than me.

much love
evangeline
 

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