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Is there a preacher in the house?

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I'm pretty well read on the bible, but I need a pastor or a bible expert or religion scholer to help me find a verse on Jesus that has been a thorn in my brain since Christmas. I have a close family member, of which I love very much, but I think she might not be saved. She told me several things about the bible that REALLY got me thinking, (some of which you wouldn't believe!). She wasn't being nasty or anything but she said that according to the bible, Jesus never said (himself) that he had come to save people from sin by dying on a cross, and called Christians 'ignorant' for telling people that was his main purpose when he never said it himself outright. She actually believes Christians just made it up to say it was our salvation (?), or something like that? Anyway, I'd REALLY like to rub it in her face and find the verse where Jesus said he came to save people from sin by dying on a cross.

I bet her that I could find the exact verse where Jesus said it. Can someone tell me the verse? I KNOW its got to be there because Jesus said it was his purpose for us, but I can't seem to remember it.

But, can you imagine? Not believing Jesus had really said that?!! Grrrrr!! :secret::secret::secret:

I'm going to PROVE that SHE is the ignorant one, not us! We don't just "make up" our salvation!!

Anyone got that verse?
 
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Don't trust what others say about God's word. People are fallible. The best way to know for sure, is to study His word diligently.

It's kinda like what experts in counterfeiting do. When they're trained to know if a bill is real or fake they spend all their time examining real currency. They become so familiar with the real thing eventually they can immediately spot a fake bill from a mile away. It's really important in this day and age to be aware of the truth. There are a lot of lies being spread about Christianity these days.

Your relative is absolutely incorrect, and you have every right to stand firm in the truth, but don't be too hard on her. It would be easy to want to kinda rub it in her face, but we're children of God. We should do all things in love and concern, especially since she's likely not saved with those kinds of ideas.

If she's not interested in the truth, don't stress. You can't force the truth onto anyone. As long as you shared the truth. That's what matters. As Christians we plant seeds, and God gives the growth. It may take years for her to really come to know Him. God knows exactly how to get her there. Pray for her.

Here are scriptures in which clearly point to what Jesus did for the world (emphasis in red is mine):


John 1:19-34
19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight[g] the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) 25 They asked him, “Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, “I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, 27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

Luke 5:30-32
30 And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Acts 2:36-38
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 19:1-10
1 He entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector and was rich. 3 And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature. 4 So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” 8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

Don't forget the most widely known scripture:

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
 
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John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Thes. 4:14-18


<TABLE style="WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: sans-serif; MARGIN-LEFT: auto; FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN-RIGHT: auto" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>14</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>15</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>16</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>17</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.</TD></TR><TR><TD class=t_verse vAlign=top>18</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 100%" class=t_text vAlign=top>Wherefore comfort one another with these words.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
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I've prayed and prayed for her but it doesn't seem to make ANY difference in her. I know prayer works....heck, there are even scientific studies that PROVE it works somewhere I'm sure! But she is just hard headed! (Lots of hard heads in my family! lol)

I know I shouldn't let others tell me what's what about my own beliefs but I also feel I should stand up for my beliefs and be the warrior for Jesus...at least that's how I was brought up. She just said some things that really made me think...some things I probably shouldn't repeat here.

Yeah, I read those verses, and even sent those exact ones to her along with some others, but it still didn't say in his own words he would die on a cross to save us from sin. I'm pretty sure there is a specific verse where he says it and i know it must be in the New Testament because that was what he had come to do here on Earth, but I guess I've just read verses till my head is about to explode. Do you ever read so much of the Bible that your eyes just kinda blur?

She also said that Jesus never wrote a &^$% thing in the Bible. That REALLY ****** me off because obviously those little red letters is his writing. Those are his own words!

I will keep praying but I really want to show her that verse because I'm tired of all the lies she is spreading about my God's word. I'm a firm believer we need to counter these lies! Fight fight fight for Jesus is my motto this week!

I got to win that bet!!! It means a lot to me!
 
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Oh and she said the 'God inspired' concept wasn't proven so John 3 verses were irrelevant. I can see her point, since Jesus didn't really say it, but I will find that verse somehow!

She also said there was nothing in the Bible about abortion being wrong...I was like WHAT??!! You are crazy girl! Lies lies lies! I know better!
 
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Jesus didn't "write" the Bible, Jesus "is" the Bible, and so much more.

Three New Testament Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and John) were first-hand accounts by men who walked with Jesus. The Books of Matthew and John were written by the men who experienced those things. The Book of Mark is the account of Peter. The Book of Luke was written by a Greek doctor who was born again and lived and walked with men who lived and walked with Jesus.

The New Testament is the most historically backed up text there are in all of history. There are more transcripts from the original era of those documents than of any of the writing of any of the Greek philosophers, yet people question the validity of the Bible because they have no faith in God to be supernatural.

They refuse their own worldly standards of validity because they don't want to believe there is a God. That's uncomfortable for them because that means they will indeed be accountable one day.

I would encourage you not to swear on a Christian forum. I'm not telling you to try and stop doing that, you probably wouldn't have the power to stop, I'm telling you to go to Father God and ask Him to change you. That's how our walk works. It's supernatural. God changes His children and draws them out of the darkness of sin and this world and transforms them into something more like His Son Jesus.
 
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Oh and she said the 'God inspired' concept wasn't proven so John 3 verses were irrelevant. I can see her point, since Jesus didn't really say it, but I will find that verse somehow!

She also said there was nothing in the Bible about abortion being wrong...I was like WHAT??!! You are crazy girl! Lies lies lies! I know better!

Stop arguing with her, it will only make you look bad. She's not interested in the truth. That's her business. We all have freewill. Pray for her, it will do more than trying to argue her down.
 
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I appreciate your zeal , but if you won the battle/fight/bet then God wouldn't be getting the glory.
I feel and can relate to your frustration , some of my family is the same way. Ya just gotta let go and let God. Arguing and debating with them only further hardens there heart. Remember , they want to win this battle as well ...don't give them any more fuel for there fire.

Matthew 13:18
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 
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Sometimes all we can do for a person is pray, THE BEST THING! We can't change their minds. God can! Ask God to speak to her and show her the way. If He uses you, that's great. If not, that's okay, too. God can do anything! He can work in her life. Just pray and maybe take some time off from arguing with her. It isn't helping either of you. You're getting stressed and she isn't learning the truth most likely.

I remember times that I tried to shove my opinion on other people. It doesn't work, but when we pray for God to move. Wow!

Jesus is the Word made flesh. I have heard that people who can not see the truth of the word will not find the truth until Holy Spirit opens their eyes, ears, hearts, and minds to it. So just pray and keep praying.

God will move in His way, in His time!
 
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Jesus didn't "write" the Bible, Jesus "is" the Bible, and so much more.

Three New Testament Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and John) were first-hand accounts by men who walked with Jesus. The Books of Matthew and John were written by the men who experienced those things. The Book of Mark is the account of Peter. The Book of Luke was written by a Greek doctor who was born again and lived and walked with men who lived and walked with Jesus.

The New Testament is the most historically backed up text there are in all of history. There are more transcripts from the original era of those documents than of any of the writing of any of the Greek philosophers, yet people question the validity of the Bible because they have no faith in God to be supernatural.

They refuse their own worldly standards of validity because they don't want to believe there is a God. That's uncomfortable for them because that means they will indeed be accountable one day.

I would encourage you not to swear on a Christian forum. I'm not telling you to try and stop doing that, you probably wouldn't have the power to stop, I'm telling you to go to Father God and ask Him to change you. That's how our walk works. It's supernatural. God changes His children and draws them out of the darkness of sin and this world and transforms them into something more like His Son Jesus.

Huh? What are you talking about Grace? I didn't swear. I used symbols. Besides, there is nothing in the Bible that says using symbols is wrong in speech. I mean, really....what makes a bad word bad? Ever ask yourself that question my friend? Whatever it is, it certainly isn't biblical. Even Jesus called people names lol.

Also, you're a bit off in the historical accounts but I know you are only trying to help. I actually majored in Religion in college and know there really is no historical backing to the Bible...because if there was, there would be no need for faith.

However, just because I can't find that one verse doesn't mean I should back down in my beliefs to her. Perhaps I shouldn't let it get to me, but I get riled up when people attack the Bible. There really is nothing wrong with wanting to win the bet as well. Its a friendly bet, and I think there is actually a GREAT possibility that if I can show it to her she will think twice about spreading that particular bit of nonsense. It's worth a try if it will open her eyes...don't you agree?
 
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Sometimes all we can do for a person is pray, THE BEST THING! We can't change their minds. God can! Ask God to speak to her and show her the way. If He uses you, that's great. If not, that's okay, too. God can do anything! He can work in her life. Just pray and maybe take some time off from arguing with her. It isn't helping either of you. You're getting stressed and she isn't learning the truth most likely.

I remember times that I tried to shove my opinion on other people. It doesn't work, but when we pray for God to move. Wow!

Jesus is the Word made flesh. I have heard that people who can not see the truth of the word will not find the truth until Holy Spirit opens their eyes, ears, hearts, and minds to it. So just pray and keep praying.

God will move in His way, in His time!

I'm trying Giggles! I really am! I'm just helping the Holy Spirit open her eyes by putting that verse in her eyes.

I must say however that when prayer never seems to work, that direct action in countering their nonsense is the best way to stop their nonsense.

If she was educated a bit more on the Bible, she wouldn't believe such nonsense...don't you agree?
 
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you said you wanted to rub it in their face. does love behave itself by rubbing it in? your actions and attitude will have a great effect whether or not the word is received. every eye will see and every knee will bow. we all are sometimes wrong.

1 corinth 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth

however if they are unreceptive you could be wasting your time.
 
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you said you wanted to rub it in their face. does love behave itself by rubbing it in? your actions and attitude will have a great effect whether or not the word is received. every eye will see and every knee will bow. we all are sometimes wrong.

1 corinth 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth

however if they are unreceptive you could be wasting your time.

Rub it in her face is just an expression. I don't actually want to take the verse and rub her face with it.

Why are you preaching at me? lol

She is already receptive...that's why she made the bet lol. As I said earlier, if she was more educated on the Bible, she wouldn't say such things.

Also, it just very well could plant a seed that could lead her to know the real Jesus. That's my goal....is that bad?

How is doing NOTHING going to change anything with her?
 
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Stop arguing with her, it will only make you look bad. She's not interested in the truth. That's her business. We all have freewill. Pray for her, it will do more than trying to argue her down.

Grace, I've prayed till my gums were blue and it didn't change anything. I'm sure you've seen many cases where prayer just didn't work. In the meantime, she is still spreading those lies about the bible.

Sometimes, in cases like these, prayer for change in that matter can be an action of non-faith, so I take it lightly and focus on direct action.

Oh, she also said the terms 'freewill' and 'original sin' was not in the bible....HUH??!! :secret:

I know that can't be true....those are CORE tenets of our faith!!!

Just like Jesus dying on a cross to save humanity from sin is our MOST CORE BELIEF....

...therefore, I simply cannot let her say Jesus never actually said it himself. It's GOT to be in the Bible!
 
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You will not find those exact words in the Bible. I do not remember it saying anywhere or Jesus saying specifically I will die on the cross.

The Gospel of Paul........Gal 1:3 and Gal 1:4 Jesus gave himself for our sins.

Matthew 26:28 Jesus says his blood will be shed for the new covenant. So he was telling them he was to die and his blood would be for the remission of sins for many.

Matthew 16:21 Jesus tells his disciples that he must be killed and tells of his Resurrection.

The method of death was chosen by his Roman executioners. Even in Luke Jesus shows the disciples his hands, but it does not specifically say he was nailed to a cross, but the entire context of the Bible shows that he was.

This is one of those things that is within Gods word, but no one single verse to explain exists.

This was the full intent of God since the beginning. All through the old testament many things point to this sacrifice and the fact Jesus was to die. Everything God did worked to that day.

But it does not say anywhere , or Jesus did not say in those word, I am to die on the cross.

Kit
 
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You will not find those exact words in the Bible. I do not remember it saying anywhere or Jesus saying specifically I will die on the cross.

The Gospel of Paul........Gal 1:3 and Gal 1:4 Jesus gave himself for our sins.

Matthew 26:28 Jesus says his blood will be shed for the new covenant. So he was telling them he was to die and his blood would be for the remission of sins for many.

Matthew 16:21 Jesus tells his disciples that he must be killed and tells of his Resurrection.

The method of death was chosen by his Roman executioners. Even in Luke Jesus shows the disciples his hands, but it does not specifically say he was nailed to a cross, but the entire context of the Bible shows that he was.

This is one of those things that is within Gods word, but no one single verse to explain exists.

This was the full intent of God since the beginning. All through the old testament many things point to this sacrifice and the fact Jesus was to die. Everything God did worked to that day.

But it does not say anywhere , or Jesus did not say in those word, I am to die on the cross.

Kit
Awww, I can't believe that Jesus wouldn't say that though. Are you 100% sure?

I mean, that is our core belief.

I actually told her the Paul verses and she said Paul never even met Jesus.

She said what I follow is actually more "Paulism" that Jesus's own words. She said almost every major creed that was attributed to Jesus was actually Paul's words and that he never met Jesus.

Paulism isn't even a religion! I don't follow Paul, I follow Jesus!

Kit, please tell me I'm am not going to lose that bet. Do you think she is actually right?
 
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Awww, I can't believe that Jesus wouldn't say that though. Are you 100% sure?

I mean, that is our core belief.

I actually told her the Paul verses and she said Paul never even met Jesus.

She said what I follow is actually more "Paulism" that Jesus's own words. She said almost every major creed that was attributed to Jesus was actually Paul's words and that he never met Jesus.

Paulism isn't even a religion! I don't follow Paul, I follow Jesus!

Kit, please tell me I'm am not going to lose that bet. Do you think she is actually right?

Lol!

Well hang your head and kick the dirt, cause you lost. However you did not lose in truth and in intent. This is all true but does not say so in those words.

Listen to the others who tell you to fuss with someone only hardens their heart. Many times it is best to lose and just pray for a person. You see God knows that persons heart the way we cannot know and a simple prayer will many times accomplish what you cannot by yourself.

As for your question are there any pros on the site, there is only one pro and that is the Holy Spirit. That is the pro. All who speak have his guidance and knowledge.

Some people and some family members can cause you to suffer sadness for them. They just do not seem to understand. This is always it seems due to sin they do not wish to let go of. So they push you away. They will get right belligerent about it sometimes.
But I will let you in on a little secret, pray for them, not once but many times if need be. Then one day when you least expect it the door will open. it may not even be you, but someone will be there and say the right things when the time is right.

We have to learn patience and how to endure. It is hard sometimes as we wish all to understand. Just takes more time for some. At the moment she does not want to hear. So just be kind and set a good example. One day the door will open.

Respectfully

Kit
 
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Lol!

Well hang your head and kick the dirt, cause you lost. However you did not lose in truth and in intent. This is all true but does not say so in those words.

Listen to the others who tell you to fuss with someone only hardens their heart. Many times it is best to lose and just pray for a person. You see God knows that persons heart the way we cannot know and a simple prayer will many times accomplish what you cannot by yourself.

As for your question are there any pros on the site, there is only one pro and that is the Holy Spirit. That is the pro. All who speak have his guidance and knowledge.

Some people and some family members can cause you to suffer sadness for them. They just do not seem to understand. This is always it seems due to sin they do not wish to let go of. So they push you away. They will get right belligerent about it sometimes.
But I will let you in on a little secret, pray for them, not once but many times if need be. Then one day when you least expect it the door will open. it may not even be you, but someone will be there and say the right things when the time is right.

We have to learn patience and how to endure. It is hard sometimes as we wish all to understand. Just takes more time for some. At the moment she does not want to hear. So just be kind and set a good example. One day the door will open.

Respectfully

Kit

Well that's not good news. I was pretty sure the verse was in there somewhere.

Oh she wasn't belligerent with me at all. We never 'fussed' about it. In fact she was quite calm. She laid out that bet and I took it without any argument at all. I guess that's what I get for my assumptions.

Thanks for your input Kit. I guess I will eat crow on that one. I guess Jesus assumed we didn't need to hear his perfect plan. It sure would have helped though if he made it more clear though and saved me from eating crow! LOL

Do you think she is right about the other points? About the terms 'original sin', and 'freewill' not being in the bible?

What about abortion not being condemned in the bible? Is that true? (She was quite specific here.) She said God actually condoned smashing babies on rocks....and that people should kill children if they even hit their parent.....that simply CAN'T be true....I refuse, refuse, refuse to believe that!

She also said God was responsible for evil, and not the devil. :secret:
 
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I appreciate your zeal , but if you won the battle/fight/bet then God wouldn't be getting the glory.
I feel and can relate to your frustration , some of my family is the same way. Ya just gotta let go and let God. Arguing and debating with them only further hardens there heart. Remember , they want to win this battle as well ...don't give them any more fuel for there fire.

Matt 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


Firstly, i do not appreciate you calling or insinuating my relative is 'swine'. Despite her apparent knowledge of the bible being beyond mine (although ironically she IS an non-believer), she is actually a great person and leads a VERY moral and inspiring life. In fact she gives and volunteers more for humanitarian charities than anyone I know. Her challenge was simply a friendly bet...not a motive with ill intent.

Second, I am doing this FOR God, to help spread his word...not for MY edification. So the glory is to God, no matter what.

So, I appreciate your input, but essentially telling me to 'give up' on my own family and their salvation is simply not an option. It is my duty as a Christian to spread God's word. I won't preach verses at you, as you already know them I'm sure.

A hidden candle does no one any good. :wink:
 
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