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Is Keeping the Sabbath for today?

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In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called, “The Sermon on the Mount,” these words of Jesus are recorded:

“Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished” (Mt. 5:17-18).
It is frequently argued that if Jesus did not “destroy” the law, then it must still be binding. Accordingly, such components as the “sabbath day” requirement must be operative still, along with, perhaps, numerous other elements of the Mosaic regime. This assumption is grounded upon a misunderstanding of the words and intent of this passage.

We may confidently affirm that Christ did not here suggest that the binding nature of the law of Moses would remain perpetually obligatory. Such a view would contradict everything we learn from the balance of the New Testament record. Consider the following points.Of special significance in this study is the word rendered “destroy.” It translates the Greek term kataluo, literally meaning to “loose down.” The word is found seventeen times in the New Testament.

It is used, for example, of the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Mt. 26:61; 27:40; Acts 6:14), and of the dissolving of the human body at death (2 Cor. 5:1). The term can carry the extended meaning of “to overthrow,” i.e., to “render vain, deprive of success.” In classical Greek, it was used in connection with institutions, laws, etc., to convey the idea of “to deprive of force” or to “invalidate.”

It is especially important to note how the word is used in Matthew 5:17. In this context, “destroy” is set in opposition to “fulfill.” Christ came “...not to destroy, but [alla – adversative particle] to fulfill.”
The meaning is this. Jesus did not come to this earth for the purpose of acting as an adversary of the law. His goal was not to frustrate its fulfillment. Rather, he revered it, loved it, obeyed it, and brought it to fruition. He fulfilled the law’s prophetic utterances regarding himself (Lk. 24:44). Christ fulfilled the demands of the Mosaic law, which called for perfect obedience or else imposed a “curse” (see Gal. 3:10,13). In this sense, the law’s divine design will ever have an abiding effect. It will always accomplish the purpose for which it was given.

If, however, the law of Moses bears the same relationship to men today, in terms of its binding status, as it did before Christ came, then it was not fulfilled, and Jesus failed at what he came “to do.” On the other hand, if the Lord did accomplish what he came to accomplish, then the law was fulfilled, and it is not a binding legal regime today.

If the law of Moses was not fulfilled by Christ, and thus remains as an obligatory legal system for today, then it is not a partially binding regime; rather, it is totally compelling system.
Jesus plainly said that not one “jot or tittle” (representative of the smallest markings of the Hebrew script) would pass away until all was fulfilled. Consequently, nothing of the law was to fail until it had completely accomplished its purpose.
“But,” some surmise, “does not the text affirm that the law would last until ‘heaven and earth’ pass away?” No, only that it would be “easier” for the universe to pass away than for the law of God not to fulfill its mission (cf. Lk. 16:17).

And so, if one contends, on the basis of Matthew 5:17-18, that Moses’ law is still binding as a legally required regime, he must take all of it – including its bloody sacrifices, annual treks to Jerusalem, purification rituals, etc. As Paul later will argue – if a man receives one portion of the law [as binding for justification], he is a debtor to do all of it (Gal. 5:3). This is the logical consequence of the misguided “sabbatarian” view of this important text.

In addition to the points listed above, Paul clearly argues, in his letter to the Ephesians, that the “law of commandments contained in ordinances” was “abolished” by the death of Jesus upon the cross (2:14-15). The Greek term for “abolished” is katargeo, literally suggesting the idea of reducing something to a state of inactivity.
Paul uses this term twice in Romans 7:2,6 – showing that just as a wife is “discharged” from the law of her husband when he dies, even so, through the death of the body of Christ, men were “discharged” from the obligations of the Mosaic law. That the law here contemplated is the law of Moses, including the ten commandments, is demonstrated by the reference to the tenth commandment in Romans 7:7 (cf. Ex. 20:17).

The harmony between Matthew 5:17-18, and Ephesians 2:15, is this: The purpose of the law of Moses was never to come to naught; its original design would be perpetual. On the other hand, as a legal code, it would be abolished, being cancelled by the Savior’s sacrificial death (cf. Col. 2:14ff.).
And so, a consideration of all the facts leads only to the conclusion that Matthew 5:17 does not afford any support to those who maintain that the observance of the sabbath day is a divinely-required obligation for this age.


My notes below...

I like to ad that the law is now written on the hearts of the Christian...and he is justified by faith, not the law. If we try to justify ourselves by trying to keep the law, we fall from grace.

Think for a minute, if all people, or half of the world, were to actually keep the sabbath, and its ordinances...we would end up in quite a big mess.
People who work at Nuclear Power plants would not be working, therefore they would have no one to watch over this, in case of possible meltdown.

Doctors and nurses would be home...Now thats scary!!

Ambulance drivers would be home...heart attack? to bad, im keeping the sabbath.

Police officers would stay home...riots in the street and total chaos.


Power companies would have to shut down, and no one to restore it, if it went out (ie: no electricity for the sabbath keeper) They would'nt like keeping the sabbath here in Canada, freezing half to death. Also unable to even get running water. Or older sick folk... stuck in high rise buildings, unable to use the stairs. So while the sabbath keeper is home taking a break, there is always someone else keeping him comfortable by working. Unless he lives in the bahamas in a tent. Now thats real first Century Christians, no need for Power companies.

No military on guard...

Transit workers would be home...

Firefighters as well...

No one could travel...


And the list goes on...


So we must use some common scense here...God did, by his son, nailing all this to his cross. We can regard Holy days, but thats it...if we go to far this will frustrate the grace of God. Plus there is always a danger of judgeing the ones who do not regard Holy days, or teach them they must keep the sabbath. And well, you know what that can do... Judge Not.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

God bless
 
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In Short

In Short! When we are saved through Jesus the Christ, Our Lord and savior, we are gifted with his fulfillment of the law and or Commandments but still by his example on how to live, we as obedient children should practice them in the Spirit of which they were given, to be blessings and not in the letter in which brings only death and condemnation to the children of disobedience.


If we study we see that Christ Jesus fulfilled the LAW by the Spirit in which it was intended by God and not the letter as men see it, otherwise the Scribes and Pharisees would have tripped him up.
 
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Yeshua said:
In Short! When we are saved through Jesus the Christ, Our Lord and savior, we are gifted with his fulfillment of the law and or Commandments but still by his example on how to live, we as obedient children should practice them in the Spirit of which they were given, to be blessings and not in the letter in which brings only death and condemnation to the children of disobedience.
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PLease:D
 
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So are you..

jiggyfly said:
Talk Jesus: Ten Commandments
Treat each other with respect when posting
No profanity or vulgar language.
No advertising other sites without permission from me first. PM me or mail me at [email protected]
- NO LINKS APPROVED UNLESS YOU HAVE 50 GENUINE POSTS!
Do not mock others' beliefs. Talk Jesus is based on the Truth of the Holy Bible.
Use Scripture (verses) when stating a point about something biblical.Be active, dedicated and self-less not selfish. Help others in need for answers.
Do not judge others. Kindly, use Scripture verses to explain to others when making a point.Share Talk Jesus with friends, family members and church!
Do not post any posts like this:
- only smilies, no text
- one word responses
- do not cross-post doubles of your posts! They will be deleted and you will be banned without warning.
Register if you haven't already :D
PLease:D
So are you agreeing with me, disagreeing with me, or scolding me, jiggyfly?

I believe there was a lot of supporting scripture to what I said in Fellowservant's post if that is what you are trying to suggest, that I broke the rules in some way.

If you have a question just ask , I would be happy to share.
 
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This appears to still be on the same line as some other thread discussions.
I ask, if we are to say we do not need to obey one of the 10 commandments,
then it must be that we do not have to obey any of them.
That is not Scriptural at all. The verse saying that Jesus fullfilled the law does not mean that the law is no longer in effect.
We are to have the law written on our hearts, yes, but that means that we will be obedient to it, not out of fear, but out of love and respect for God.
I do not totally understand the "keeping of the Sabbath" on Saturday, since Sunday is my day of worship and rest, but I do respect those who feel inclined that way.
And I saw no judgement or condemnation from those espousing that practice against those of us who do not.
Jesus also said, "If you love me you will obey my commands."
Toklatkate
 
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Why this ONE Commandment under fire?

You know, that post really had me going. I've seen so many really talented, dazzling "Christian Intellectuals" now, who know the Greek meanings, Hebrew, etc. etc... and I'm always impressed, being myself from large universities of "higher learning"... :embarasse ....unfortunately, then the weak foundation on TRUE understanding comes flooding in, and you realize... all the "education", "intellectualizing", and "rationale" in the world will never change God's COMMANDMENTS. And trying to "compartmentalize" these concepts is the only way to really attack it. :unlove:
I'm at a loss. It always baffles me why people who have this superior understanding and higher-ed learning, yet such HUGE gaps in cognitive thinking; to "cherry-pick" the scripture. Skipping Luke, or the dozens of times God pleads, "KEEP MY SABBATHS!" in the old testament - how God cries out, and is rejected by disobedience, and so, yes, He writes the New Covenant. Yet... I get the feeling you'd be the first person to pull up the OT on homosexuality, using Romans to show that God hates sexual sin, and even more so when same-sex goes on; yet in the next breath, following God's "Law" is not "necessary" anymore. My brother, I want to encourage you to find the Face of God; God's NATURE; it is CONSISTENT.
Here, in this post, you are going through great pains to undermine God's Children who want to love Him, and are following the TEN COMMANDMENTS - not 613 very particular Mosaic Jewish Laws. Do you think, way inside yourself, this is a good thing to do, to encourage the breaking of a Commandment? The LAW is written on your HEART, brother, don't you feel a twinge when you make this argument, feel that you're doing so for your own agendas and purposes? This is an innocent question not meant to make you feel guilty, but merely to get you to self-reflect. I'm just wondering if you might have had some reflection on why you'd make this debate in the first place, since you posted the thread. Does it frighten you that you do not take this Gift from your Creator, time with Him?
The argument that we have to take all these Mosaic Laws along with the commandments is not the least bit viable, to me - people try to make this argument all the time in dismissing commandments; but see, there's a distinct difference between the two. That's number one. And while I was too distracted by your dissection of scripture being done in such a beautifully "knowledgeable" rhetoric, there was something that gave it all away that the concept here is half-done: The most glaring hint is the concept you offered that everybody would be "Home on Saturday" and some horribly illogical science fiction disaster would occur:
Power companies would have to shut down, and no one to restore it, if it went out (ie: no electricity for the sabbath keeper) They would'nt like keeping the sabbath here in Canada, freezing half to death. Also unable to even get running water. Or older sick folk... stuck in high rise buildings, unable to use the stairs...
The idea that God would want or allow this chaos over choosing this Commandment ... well it's downright silly, no offense to you, but really.. come on... people kept the Sabbath for centuries, and you're saying because we have cellphones and power companies, the Sabbath is now considered at the least "inconvenient".. and at the most "disasterous and life-threatening"? Well, yes, inconvenience has always been the bugaboo for people who want to skip this commandment - AND IT IS THE ONLY COMMANDMENT THEY WILL DEBATE. But disasterous? Life-threatening?? This is purely science fiction, and not a good way to debate about "obedience" with God... wrong road, with truly dangerous bumps.
So, in saying that, finally I wonder if you ever studied Luke? I'd like to suggest if you have, you might read it with new eyes! :girl_hug: Christ ran into the Pharisees while keeping the Sabbath. He explained to all, that MAN WAS NOT MADE FOR THE SABBATH, BUT THE SABBATH FOR MAN. ISN'T THAT BEAUTIFUL! WHAT A GIFT!! If you have a sheep in the ditch - you go SAVE IT. GOD UNDERSTANDS. Semiotically, Jesus's words have a metamessage: THIS IS FOR YOU. THIS IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO REST AND RENEW WITH YOUR LORD. If you don't want to do this, great, but why are you trying to debate that the rest of us are wrong in doing so, or must start to kill sheep? I hope you see that there's a logical problem with that.
(Just to indulge this fantasy for a moment: If the whole world turned into Sabbathkeepers, then things would be closed on Saturday instead of Sunday and the world would adjust, the same way they adjust to anything else. People would share shifts, responsibilities - because THAT IS THE SHEEP IN THE DITCH. See? But that isn't the point.) The real point is, you're arguing this topic without pulling in all relevant scripture that proves that Christ kept the Sabbath, and, following Him in love, "What would Jesus do?" Well, according to scripture, like He always did, he'd keep the Sabbath for sure - so should we, ideally, since as you know, "Christian" has always and forever meant "Christlike". So we should do the same! Can you honestly say we shouldn't act as Christ as much as possible? So instead of carpentry... he relaxed, taught, wandered around healing... that's fun. Not work, for the Lord. I truly believe that. He didn't sweat over hammering nails for a day. :love:
IN FACT... JESUS KEPT THE SABBATH AS HE DIED. HE DIED ON FRIDAY, WAS GONE ON SATURDAY... AND CAME BACK TO LIFE ON SUNDAY. Do you honeslty believe that's a coincidence? Is anything in the Bible's intricate writings ever "coincidence"? Not in my experience, my dear Christian brother.
:love: Christ was an innocent lamb. :sun: Otherwise, yes, He wouldn't be fit for sacrifice. But the argument over "fulfilling" and "destroying" the law can be argued all day, it still doesn't change those TEN COMMANDMENTS. Would you argue for people to think lying is okay? Murder? Coveting? Adultery? Would this make God happy? Does disobedience ever make Him pleased? Should we abandon all law now. God doesn't care anymore beause Man had trouble with it? Jesus made it all go away when He died? We can sin now without judgement? Is this your argument? That's what I see here, unfortunately, so please, set me straight if I'm misunderstanding you.
Honestly, if you think about it, if you want to throw the world into complete chaos, REAL anarchy? Well, just dump the 10 commandments and make them worthless. Let people lie, murder, steal... without consequence... forget even the the lack of police force manpower, don't even send them out... I mean, why? They aren't there to force "morality", so if the law isn't based on the commandments... then were are we in society? The world would truly be destroyed. And THAT, dear Brother, IS NOT "science fiction" at all.
So my question is this now: Why reject this one commandment, only this ONE? Do you have evidence of any kind that anybody directly said, "The Fourth Commandment no longer applies..."?
:embarasse It's always about the Sabbath in this type of debate, ALWAYS WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Never about ANY other. Nobody does any rationalization, trying to destroy this commandment's practice within Christian churchs, in my very humble opinion. on the rest of the commandments... they choose this, because it's so bloody inconvenient in "today's world", as you said, to follow God's written word and will regarding this day for you.
Yes, IT IS inconvenient with our "modern lifestyles"; but so is avoiding fornication, adultery, coveting, and all the rest of the sins God doesn't want in your life. You imply that "today's world" should somehow not confess with its mouth or have every knee bend that the Law is of our Creator, and because of this "complicated modern life", shouldn't be observed, but cast out, merely because it's a "complicated place". How "loving" to God is that, to PUT THE WORLD FIRST?? You can't have one foot in the world and one in Heaven, my dear Christian brother. :unlove:
This somewhat reminds me of all the political arguments regarding global warming, that start out with some good strong science and then dissolves into a wild movie like, "Day After Tomorrow" where the whole world comes crashing down with ice covering it within three days. What you're saying that because 1/3 of the population (Christians comprise 1/3 of the world's religion) decides to "take a day of rest" like they do the NEXT day ALREADY.. on Sunday, the world will fall to pieces. Does that make sense? God would destroy everything for keeping the commandment? See...
So...the most glaring part of scripture you've mistakenly, or not, left out or forgotten in the skilled, educated writing of your post that gave me the hint: The observing the Sabbath is OPTIONAL - God gave this to His Children as a GIFT. You are free to observe it, to worship God in this way, or not. You aren't going to be judged for that - you're merely missing out on one of the most exhilarating experiences in the world; it's like... never knowing what chocolate ice cream tastes like. Maybe you'll rationalize that there's caffeine in it. I don't know. But in all love and manner of my humble Christianity and LOVE FOR YOU AS MY BROTHER... I beg you not to keep putting away one of God's commandments as "irrelevant", "socially dangerous", "inappropriate", or "wrong", because it's not your place, to interpret things this way, nor really to judge your brother's worship - it's God's. And something tells me when His Children observe the FOURTH COMMANDMENT - not slaughtering lambs - that He is joyful that they spend that day in devoted prayer and rest in Him. There are so many that advocate fasting, and other ways of getting in touch with God. Are those all wrong too?
By the way, one LAST... poignant question: Have YOU ever tried keeping this COMMANDMENT on a consistent basis? Just to see for yourself if there is some veracity, that it might just make you extremely joyful, in the Lord?
Just curious. :shade:
:rose: God bless you richly for seeking the truth in this thread. I pray for your wisdom through the Holy Spirit that you may find that obedience and blessings are inextricably intertwined. :rose:
:girl_hug: I pray for your wisdom, and reflection, on this subject.
In Christ, :love:
CaliFlower :rose:
 
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Sorry can I call you Mam, because I'd read your profile.
About Sabbath, I think that's the way we know Jesus. 'cause for an advent they knew sabbath as saturday. For other that is sunday. But sabbath as I know is about our heart, we can keep working while our heart is posting with GOD, Sabbath speaking about how we honnor HIM and give our time to HIM
 
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Califlower . you have been warned about sarcasmn in the forums twice . You are dissmissed . Bye . Mike
 
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Rom 3:25-26
25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
(from The Holy Bible: New International Version.
Rom 3:27-31
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
(from The Holy Bible: New International Version.
Jesus was the greatest Sacrifice. given for the forgiveness of sins so we may be excepted into the Kingdom of heaven. Him being cruisified does not excuse us from not fallowing the law of Moses.( meaning the ten commandments) we must still fallow the ten commandments and the Sabbath holy . for years there has been arguements of what day that is I have heard it is Sat. Sun. and I have heard it can be any day . I cant say i know with out a doubt but this is my openion and yes if i am wrong please correct me I am always willing to learn.
Studying by The hebrew beliefs the Sabbath was orginally Saturday. Which was intended a day for rest. God rested on the seventh day which by the Hebrew calendar that would be on Saturday.
Jesus died for our sins so through him we can recieve salvation.
I feel that because he was concered the greatest Sacrifice it only excuses us from having to continue animal sacrificing but yet daily we have to make a sacrifice of flesh in a spiritual sence.
the bible tells us to sacrifice our flesh daily
to turn from sin . it never said anything about not keeping the sabbath or not living by the law.
read chapter 10 in hebrews Heb 10:9-14
Heb 10:7-28
7Then I said, `Here I am-it is written about me in the scroll- I have come to do your will, O God.'"
8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."
17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts " I will remember no more."
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another-and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(from The Holy Bible: New International Version.
please do not be offended I am just explaining how I feel and what i am getting out of the scriptures .
 
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Sarcasm?

BROTHERSINARMST4G said:
Califlower . you have been warned about sarcasmn in the forums twice . You are dissmissed . Bye . Mike
Can you point out the sarcasm she posted, I cannot find it.
I don't know if I am missing something, but I did not see it.
Thanks
toklatkate
 
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You and Califlower have formed a great one two punch on allot of topics behind long time members . Enjoy your divisive teamwork somewhere else . Bye to you . Mike
 
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Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.



If saints wish to be justified by the law, then Christ is dead in vain, we can observe the law, but we are not under it...the minute we put ourselves under the law to keep it in carnal ordinances we make the death of Christ of no affect.


Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,



Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.



Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

And just to clarify.. going to church on sunday, is not keeping the sabbath...keeping this as it should be kept in the law, involves a lot more than that.

God bless
 
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Yeshua said:
So are you agreeing with me, disagreeing with me, or scolding me, jiggyfly?
I believe there was a lot of supporting scripture to what I said in Fellowservant's post if that is what you are trying to suggest, that I broke the rules in some way.
If you have a question just ask , I would be happy to share.
Please accept my apologies Yeshua. I misunderstood your post to say we still need to practice the law. I thought you were disagreeing with the post and adding your thought without scripture. My mistake, Please accept my appologies.
 
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You are a true and humble man of God Jiggyfly . Peace to you brother in all things . Mike
 
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Do not the Jews keep the sabbath on Saturday? Do not the Jews keep the Mosaic law? If the answer is "yes", then do not the Jews have the privilage of looking forward to eternal fellowship with our Lord in heaven?

What makes us as Christians different from Jews? Is it not that our Lord came down as flesh to become the ultimate...the final...the perfect sacrificial lamb, putting an end to the need for any other sacrificial lambs?

Seems to me that God put forth the Mosaic law so that His Son's sacrifice on the cross would make sense. The Jews (and most pagans) understand the intent and purpose of sacrifice because of their previous laws. If you have to witness to someone who has NO understanding of law and or religion, you would spend quite a bit of time trying to explain why ANY sacrifice is nessisary at all.

If we are UNDER the law, then maybe we should change the site name to "Talk Moses" because essentially, we'd be Jewish. This, of course is not to say we should go around breaking the Mosaic law shouting Jesus's name.:eek:mg: On the contrary, if you love Jesus, and lift his name, and seek our Lord, you will automatically want to keep these laws to the best of your ability. Of course, your ability and mine is quite lacking in His eyes. <---This is bad news for us! But wait! I have good news...:love:

God bless,
Nigh
 
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Nigh said:
Do not the Jews keep the sabbath on Saturday? Do not the Jews keep the Mosaic law? If the answer is "yes", then do not the Jews have the privilage of looking forward to eternal fellowship with our Lord in heaven?
What makes us as Christians different from Jews? Is it not that our Lord came down as flesh to become the ultimate...the final...the perfect sacrificial lamb, putting an end to the need for any other sacrificial lambs?
Seems to me that God put forth the Mosaic law so that His Son's sacrifice on the cross would make sense. The Jews (and most pagans) understand the intent and purpose of sacrifice because of their previous laws. If you have to witness to someone who has NO understanding of law and or religion, you would spend quite a bit of time trying to explain why ANY sacrifice is nessisary at all.
If we are UNDER the law, then maybe we should change the site name to "Talk Moses" because essentially, we'd be Jewish. This, of course is not to say we should go around breaking the Mosaic law shouting Jesus's name.:eek:mg: On the contrary, if you love Jesus, and lift his name, and seek our Lord, you will automatically want to keep these laws to the best of your ability. Of course, your ability and mine is quite lacking in His eyes. <---This is bad news for us! But wait! I have good news...:love:
God bless,
Nigh
Amen brother: If God nails something to a tree (ie: the ordinances contained in the law) who are we to take them back down. Christ is the end of this, to all that believe.

Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before [them] all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


God bless
 
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Read Romans to get a better understanding of the law, this way it does'nt appear that I am against the law...God forbid, because the law is just and good.. but we are dead to it, so we can live unto God. I dont want people to think otherwise. It is the works of the law (ie the carnal ordinances contained in the law) that Christ fullfiled on the cross. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

God bless

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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No apology was needed....

jiggyfly said:
Please accept my apologies Yeshua. I misunderstood your post to say we still need to practice the law. I thought you were disagreeing with the post and adding your thought without scripture. My mistake, Please accept my appologies.
No apology was needed. The part you might of misunderstood was my reference to fullfilment of the fruits of the Spirit, against which there is no law.

P.S. Some have made comments that I post only scripture and can not speak by the Spirit of God from my Heart. You may not been aware of this but to tell the truth as it is, scripture is not broken so the Whole Bible of God's Word is a witness to the truth. It is hard to find a balance when we speak to many that are at different growth levels. That is why I welcome well intended questions.

Be at Peace Brother
 
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Hi folks, thought I might add some to this discussion. I'll try and not be to long winded.

When discussing the subject of the Sat./Sunday question, the subject of the law always is an integral part, especially since it is about the 4Th commandment. But there are some rather significant historical fact's concerning the 10 commandments that usually go untouched, that are both interesting and important.

Usually most people from the Sunday persuasion, believe that the 10 commandments were a part of the Mosaic law. Actually they are not, the Mosaic law consisted of the Ceremonial, Civil, and the Health. Now it is important to consider that when God gave these "laws" to Moses, He spoke them to him, and Moses recorded them, or remembered them and wrote them down later.

The 10 Commandments were given first, and in a totally different sort of way. Instead of verbally "giving" them to Moses, God Inscribed each law indelibly into solid stone with His own finger. This is rather important because when ever stone is mentioned in the Bible it is (usually) in reference to something that is everlasting, and the fact that God used His own finger points to how serious God was concerning His "personal" law. It was not going to be in-trusted to Moses in a verbal manor, but in a permanent manner.

This is where we get the catch phrase that something of importance is " inscribed in Stone". It is also important to remember what God told Moses in regard to the keeping, or storage of the Law. The 10 Commandment law was to be stored inside the Ark of the Covenant just under the mercy seat where Gods presence dwelt. The Mosaic law was to be kept underneath the ark in a separate place. Read the books of Exodus & Leviticus for more info. It is obvious at least to me that God felt there was a special need for the preservation of His 10 personal laws.

Then there is the discussion of Rom. 7:1-25 that I would like to look at , starting with vs.6 It would appear from the surface that Paul is telling us that the law is a dead letter and that we are no longer under it's influence. But then a funny thing happens in vs.7 where Paul asks the question," Is the law sin, God forbid, for I would not have known the sin, but by the law". Then he quotes some of the 10 commandment laws.

Vs. 8-11 Paul talks about how he lived his life without the law, and therefore did not know what sin was until the Law came to his being, at which sin revived, and He died. Vs. 10 Even states that the law which was ordained for life, he found brought death. And really the law all by it's self, does just exactly that. For no person can be saved just through the virtues of the law alone.

Then we run smack into vs.12, notice that it states that the "law is Holy, and the commandment is just, Holy, and good". If it was done away with at the cross, why and how could Paul make such a statement. Vs. 14 states that the law is "spiritual". Then Paul jumps into a discourse of the merits of "trying'' to keep the law on ones own, and what the result is.

Vs. 22 is key here when it states that the law of God is a delight, after the inward man. Or to have God write the law on our hearts. Vs. 25 sums it up by stating " I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here we have what appears to be 2 separate sets of laws, one the law of God that we have engraved upon our heart, and the law of sin,(Satan's law) that our flesh desires to serve, because we are carnal by our very nature.

Paul teaches that Christians are saved not by faith, but by grace through faith. Paul was constantly fighting legalism of those who were trying to keep all the 10 commandments in and of themselves. And when he wasn't dealing with that, he was fighting against the Jews who still wanted to keep the old covenant laws, and force others into doing the same things. You can find that in Galatians, and 1st & 2nd Cor.

Paul was trying to impress upon these stubborn folks that Faith is the hand that takes the salvation freely offered by Jesus. Faith does not lead to disobedience but to obedience. Paul states in no uncertain terms "Do we then make void the law through faith, God forbid" ( Rom. 3:31). Rom 6:1,14,15 adds "Shall we sin (break the law) so grace may abound. God forbid". Paul was a law keeper, but only as it is perfectly understood as being kept by grace through faith.

Well there is a great many more thing's I could write about, and I look forward to doing that as we debate this important issue, So I shall save it for later.

God bless us every one!

Rick
 
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I believe that the Sabbath Day is for today for the simple reason that Jesus observed the Sabbath and that His charge to us to "Make disciples of all nations.....teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20) means that His followers are to do likewise.

By His example, He "taught" us to keep the Sabbath Day holy. The Sabbath is not just supposed to be a day of physical rest, an escape from "the daily grind." It is a day that is supposed to be set aside and dedicated to the Lord, a day of recharging our spiritual batteries.

Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and transitioned us into the New Covenant (New Testament). The New Covenant includes the Ten Commandments which include the observation of the Sabbath.

If I'm not mistaken, the Mosaic Law was codified after the Ten Coommandments were given. Therefore, the Ten Commandments are separate, having come first with a space of time between the two.

SLE
 
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