Is Jesus Lord? Reduction salvation?

[B-A-C]

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Many take this as a standalone formula for salvation, but when isolated from the rest of Scripture, it can lead to a reductionist view—one that overlooks the ongoing obedience, repentance, and discipleship that Jesus and the apostles consistently taught.

The Problem with Isolating Romans 10:9–10​

• Paul’s context in Romans is addressing Jewish and Gentile believers, emphasizing faith over works of the Law, not faith without obedience.
• The phrase “Jesus is Lord” was a radical confession in the Roman world—acknowledging Jesus as sovereign over Caesar. It implied allegiance, not just words.
• The Greek word for “believe” (πιστεύω) carries the idea of trust and commitment, not mere intellectual assent.

• James 2:19 – “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”
  
  • Belief alone isn’t enough—faith must be active.
• Hebrews 5:9 – “He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.”
  
  • Salvation is tied to obedience, not just confession.

=========================

1 Corinthians 12:3 – "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit."
This verse emphasizes genuine confession—not just verbal acknowledgment, but a Spirit-enabled recognition of Jesus' lordship.
It sets the foundation: True lordship is spiritual, not superficial.

Matthew 7:21–23 – "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven..."
These people call Him Lord, but do not do the will of the Father.
It shows that mere words or even spiritual activity (prophesying, casting out demons) are not enough without obedience and relationship.

Matthew 25:44 – "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty...'"
Again, they call Him "Lord", but failed to serve Him through serving others.
This highlights the disconnect between profession and practice.

Luke 6:46 – "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"
Jesus directly challenges the inconsistency between confession and obedience.
This verse ties the theme together: True lordship demands submission.

Philippians 2:11​

• This is the culmination: one day, everyone will acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
• But for many, it will be too late—their confession will be compelled, not redeeming.

Malachi 1:6​

“‘A son honors his father, and a slave his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?’ says the Lord Almighty.”

• God is called “Lord Almighty”, yet His people dishonor Him through disobedience and disrespect.

 

[B-A-C]

The thief on the cross (Luke 23:39–43) is often used as a counterpoint to Lordship salvation or works-based obedience.

Common Argument:
“The thief didn’t do any works—he just believed and was saved. Therefore, obedience isn’t necessary.”

But that oversimplifies the situation.

Insight Points:
Old Covenant Context

Jesus had not yet died, risen, or ascended. The New Covenant was not fully inaugurated (Hebrews 9:16–17).
The thief may have been saved under the same grace that covered Old Testament saints—faith in God’s mercy, not yet full knowledge of the gospel.

“Paradise” vs. Heaven

Jesus said, “Today you will be with me in paradise”—not necessarily the final heaven (cf. Luke 16:22; 2 Cor 12:4; Rev 2:7).
This suggests a temporary place of rest, not the final judgment or reward.

Obedience by Restraint

The thief rebuked the other criminal, acknowledged Jesus’ innocence, and confessed Him publicly (Luke 23:40–42).
While nailed to a cross, he couldn’t do much—but he didn’t revile, didn’t mock, and didn’t deny. That’s a form of obedience.
“Sometimes obedience isn’t just what we do—it’s what we don’t do.”

Lordship Still Present
Even in his final moments, the thief:

Feared God (Luke 23:40)
Acknowledged guilt and justice (v. 41)
Recognized Jesus’ kingship (“remember me when you come into your kingdom”)
Submitted to Jesus’ authority—that’s Lordship.

Theological Balance
This view avoids two extremes:

Cheap grace (faith without fruit)
Legalism (works as the basis of salvation)
Instead, it affirms:

Salvation is by grace through faith—but true faith, when possible, produces obedience.

 

[Bill]

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Many take this as a standalone formula for salvation, but when isolated from the rest of Scripture, it can lead to a reductionist view—one that overlooks the ongoing obedience, repentance, and discipleship that Jesus and the apostles consistently taught.

The Problem with Isolating Romans 10:9–10​

• Paul’s context in Romans is addressing Jewish and Gentile believers, emphasizing faith over works of the Law, not faith without obedience.
• The phrase “Jesus is Lord” was a radical confession in the Roman world—acknowledging Jesus as sovereign over Caesar. It implied allegiance, not just words.
• The Greek word for “believe” (πιστεύω) carries the idea of trust and commitment, not mere intellectual assent.

• James 2:19 – “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.”
  
  • Belief alone isn’t enough—faith must be active.
• Hebrews 5:9 – “He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.”
  
  • Salvation is tied to obedience, not just confession.

=========================

1 Corinthians 12:3 – "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit."
This verse emphasizes genuine confession—not just verbal acknowledgment, but a Spirit-enabled recognition of Jesus' lordship.
It sets the foundation: True lordship is spiritual, not superficial.

Matthew 7:21–23 – "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven..."
These people call Him Lord, but do not do the will of the Father.
It shows that mere words or even spiritual activity (prophesying, casting out demons) are not enough without obedience and relationship.

Matthew 25:44 – "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty...'"
Again, they call Him "Lord", but failed to serve Him through serving others.
This highlights the disconnect between profession and practice.

Luke 6:46 – "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?"
Jesus directly challenges the inconsistency between confession and obedience.
This verse ties the theme together: True lordship demands submission.

Philippians 2:11​

• This is the culmination: one day, everyone will acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
• But for many, it will be too late—their confession will be compelled, not redeeming.

Malachi 1:6​

• God is called “Lord Almighty”, yet His people dishonor Him through disobedience and disrespect.

When I get into that conversation of faith alone. I remind people that all of scripture has to agree with itself.

So when you read where Paul says that faith alone is like a gong clanging in the Wind, then you have to ask yourself what am I missing if I'm following the concept of faith alone.

The answer can easily be found in the thief that hung on the cross next to Jesus.

Oddly enough this is the very thing that everybody looks at when they are talking about faith alone, but they completely Miss one little detail when they do that.

It's not faith alone that takes us to heaven. It's faith alone that brings us to Jesus that's correct. But we still have to receive Jesus.

It's written in the scripture Jesus says that "no one can go to the father but through me".

So if a person receives Christ into their heart they're going through Jesus. Scripture also says knock on the door and you'll receive Christ.

Faith is what brings you to the door. But you still have to knock on it, and you still have to receive Jesus.

And once you receive Jesus what are you receiving you're not only receiving Jesus but you're receiving what he is. And what does the scripture say what God is because Jesus is God. Scripture says that "God is love".

So when you're receiving Christ you're receiving love. So if you go back to looking at the thief they hung on the cross next to Jesus and Jesus said "today you'll be with me in Paradise". What you look at when you see the thief talking about Jesus is that he's showing compassion towards Jesus when he's hanging there on the cross.

Compassion is a form of love

So it's faith and love that take us to the Father in heaven.

And how do we know that the father is in heaven. Remember the prayer that Jesus taught us, "our father who is in heaven"

 

[KingJ]

You guys are all over the show.

Rom 10:9 works just fine as a stand alone verse. Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

It mentions A + B = Salvation. It does not mention A + B + C + D + E + a little of F = Salvation.

The problem is that you are not reading the 'fine print' in it. It says 'if you are able to do A and B'. The key word is IF.

A = Call Jesus Lord. B = Believe in your heart that He was raised from the dead.

Now what do you think it takes to call Jesus Lord? To truthfully believe that.....a man....who walked the earth 2000 years ago, is Lord / God of the universe is impossible without a revelation from above. You quoted 1 Cor 12:3 but seem to not grasp it's relevance. Matt 16:16-17 and 1 Cor 12:3 both state with crystal clarity that a revelation from above / the Holy Spirit is needed to believe Jesus is Lord.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Matt 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah (Messiah = Lord Luke 2:11, Isa 9:6), the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

In a nutshell, God needs to reveal Jesus to us. God makes us a Christian. Our part is to draw near to Him. We do this by repenting Psalm 51:17, Luke 5:32, undefiled servitude James 1:27 and martyrdom Rev 6:10.

James 4:8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

As such, it should be clear that you guys (@B-A-C and @Bill ), have the cart before the horse.

Horse = Repent Luke 5:32, undefiled servitude James 1:27, martyrdom Rev 6:10

Cart = Happens when we pass God's judgment of our heart and mind Jer 17:9-10. He reveals Himself to us 1 Cor 12:3 and washes us in the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from all sin 1 John 1:7. We are made new creations 2 Cor 5:17, born again John 3:3. After this we can truthfully call Jesus Lord and believe He was raised from the dead.

John 3:3 is very similar to Rom 10:9. John 3:3 Jesus answered him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

-------------------

You mention James 2:19 to debunk faith mentioned in Rom 10:9.

'The devils believe in God'. They will not / are not able to truthfully repent of their sins, accept and confess that Jesus is Lord. Apples and oranges! Saving faith has absolutely nothing to do with faith in God's existence.

 

[KingJ]

Matthew 7:21–23 – "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven..."
These people call Him Lord, but do not do the will of the Father.
It shows that mere words or even spiritual activity (prophesying, casting out demons) are not enough without obedience and relationship.

If the works these people did were undefiled works as those mentioned in James 1:27, it would cause God to pay them a visit and they would be gifted salvation and faith to become His children.

The problem is that the works these 'so called Christians' did were dead works. Works that appealed to their pride. 'Prophesying, healing the sick, casting out demons'. Wow, what great men of God. Cough cough. Works as opposed to helping out an orphan or changing an old ladies light bulb.

James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

[Bill]

If the works these people did were undefiled works as those mentioned in James 1:27, it would cause God to pay them a visit and they would be gifted salvation and faith to become His children.

The problem is that the works these 'so called Christians' did were dead works. Works that appealed to their pride. 'Prophesying, healing the sick, casting out demons'. Wow, what great men of God. Cough cough. Works as opposed to helping out an orphan or changing an old ladies light bulb.

James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

I really can understand what you are saying.

But to everyone here, do not clump everyone or a whole church into a negative light.

There are many prophets and apostles and those that do healings and all sorts of things that do it in the Lord all the time.

And there are those who we hear about, Jim Jones, and Jimmy Baker and others.

Look at how the whole catholic church is still demonized by preachers to this day from something that happened in the 1500's. And how some catholic priest's still demonize all protestant churches.

I can guarentee all these priests and preachers will be held accountable for the continuing agression.

If there are bad prophecies, and no one wants to raise a voice to correct it, then whose fault is it. It is the fault of those God shows the prophecy to be false, those who stay quiet.

Certainly there is some responsibility for those making the prophecy in the first place. But if God shows others that the prophecy is false and they stay quiet they are just as guilty as the one prophesying it in the first place

 

[KingJ]

I really can understand what you are saying.

But to everyone here, do not clump everyone or a whole church into a negative light.

There are many prophets and apostles and those that do healings and all sorts of things that do it in the Lord all the time.

And there are those who we hear about, Jim Jones, and Jimmy Baker and others.

Look at how the whole catholic church is still demonized by preachers to this day from something that happened in the 1500's. And how some catholic priest's still demonize all protestant churches.

I can guarentee all these priests and preachers will be held accountable for the continuing agression.

If there are bad prophecies, and no one wants to raise a voice to correct it, then whose fault is it. It is the fault of those God shows the prophecy to be false, those who stay quiet.

Certainly there is some responsibility for those making the prophecy in the first place. But if God shows others that the prophecy is false and they stay quiet they are just as guilty as the one prophesying it in the first place

Please, at our age we are not new to this discussion.

We have both seen those plentiful mickey mouse 'so called Christians' whose entire focus is '''healing'', ''money'' and ''prophecy''. I cannot and will not ever relate to them. Those that mock any sick or poor for a lack of faith.

These people are far from God's heart and are playing church.

Catholic priests fall into a separate bracket. They have devoted their entire lives to celibacy. To the clothe. Can one be more dedicated?

James mentions that we should call for the elders in a church to pray for the sick.

James 5:14 “Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Elders need to meet qualifying criteria according 1 Tim 3:1-7:

• Above reproach
• The husband of one wife
• Sober-minded
• Self-controlled
• Respectable
• Hospitable
• Able to teach
• Not a drunkard
• Not violent but gentle
• Not quarrelsome
• Not a lover of money
• Manages his own household well, keeping his children submissive
• Not a recent convert, so he won't become prideful

 

[Bill]

Please, at our age we are not new to this discussion.

We have both seen those plentiful mickey mouse 'so called Christians' whose entire focus is '''healing'', ''money'' and ''prophecy''. I cannot and will not ever relate to them. Those that mock any sick or poor for a lack of faith.

These people are far from God's heart and are playing church.

Catholic priests fall into a separate bracket. They have devoted their entire lives to celibacy. To the clothe. Can one be more dedicated?

James mentions that we should call for the elders in a church to pray for the sick.

James 5:14 “Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Elders need to meet qualifying criteria according 1 Tim 3:1-7:

• Above reproach
• The husband of one wife
• Sober-minded
• Self-controlled
• Respectable
• Hospitable
• Able to teach
• Not a drunkard
• Not violent but gentle
• Not quarrelsome
• Not a lover of money
• Manages his own household well, keeping his children submissive
• Not a recent convert, so he won't become prideful

I am catholic, and I have friends of mine that are what we would consider conservative priests. Not so conservative where we condemn the Protestant churches at all but conservative enough where I think the Protestant churches would be proud of us not that we're trying to make them proud of us. Because we follow the scripture and the tradition as Paul talks about. Remembering where we came from and remembering those teachers that have taught the good fight versus teachers that teach ridiculous things.

There are some in the Vatican and around the world and unfortunately it seems to be the majority or at least they're in locked up with the present Pope who has made his intentions known to us that he definitely is not standing with the Lord on a number of serious subjects like homosexuality, or blessing the union of two of the same sex. Something that we are completely against. It's not even scriptural.

As I pointed out to a priest friend of mine, the present Pope that's in the Vatican is the very person that found all the liberal Bishops that were assigned under the previous Pope. Francis, was a false leader, and this Pope is walking the same path.

They set out bread crumbs to make them look good, but set policies that are disasters to the church. If I recall correctly more than half of the original members of the church in the European Union have left the church because of the teachings that are going on over there about homosexuality. The Bishops in Europe are marrying people who are homosexual.

John Paul II, in my opinion was what a leader should be, humble before God.

 

[KingJ]

I am catholic, and I have friends of mine that are what we would consider conservative priests. Not so conservative where we condemn the Protestant churches at all but conservative enough where I think the Protestant churches would be proud of us not that we're trying to make them proud of us. Because we follow the scripture and the tradition as Paul talks about. Remembering where we came from and remembering those teachers that have taught the good fight versus teachers that teach ridiculous things.

There are some in the Vatican and around the world and unfortunately it seems to be the majority or at least they're in locked up with the present Pope who has made his intentions known to us that he definitely is not standing with the Lord on a number of serious subjects like homosexuality, or blessing the union of two of the same sex. Something that we are completely against. It's not even scriptural.

As I pointed out to a priest friend of mine, the present Pope that's in the Vatican is the very person that found all the liberal Bishops that were assigned under the previous Pope. Francis, was a false leader, and this Pope is walking the same path.

They set out bread crumbs to make them look good, but set policies that are disasters to the church. If I recall correctly more than half of the original members of the church in the European Union have left the church because of the teachings that are going on over there about homosexuality. The Bishops in Europe are marrying people who are homosexual.

John Paul II, in my opinion was what a leader should be, humble before God.

The pope stated in May 25 that he did not support homosexual marriage. But now he is not removing this from the church. It's crazy.

 

[Bill]

The pope stated in May 25 that he did not support homosexual marriage. But now he is not removing this from the church. It's crazy.

It's very frustrating.

I know that there was a Protestant preacher that I like listening to for quite a while, until he started preaching something I know that is false altogether. And I believe let those in the Protestant Church must have recognized it because his following on the radio doesn't even exist anymore. It was that one preacher out of India. And he's teaching the 'DONE' philosophy where there's nothing that you can do, that everything is done.

And of course we know that that's false because not only do you have to repent of your sins, but you have to accept Jesus as Lord and savior is the scripture says. The Done teaching does not include that

 

[KingJ]

It's very frustrating.

I know that there was a Protestant preacher that I like listening to for quite a while, until he started preaching something I know that is false altogether. And I believe let those in the Protestant Church must have recognized it because his following on the radio doesn't even exist anymore. It was that one preacher out of India. And he's teaching the 'DONE' philosophy where there's nothing that you can do, that everything is done.

And of course we know that that's false because not only do you have to repent of your sins, but you have to accept Jesus as Lord and savior is the scripture says. The Done teaching does not include that

Even though I believe in OSAS, I agree with you. This is teaching complacency and in this age of evil, it is certainly extremely foolish.

Scripture is crystal clear on four items.

1. We can know that we are Christians 2 Cor 13:5.

2. Even though we pass our test, we must not assume we pass God's test 1 Cor 10:12 and must continue working out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12.

3. Anyone continuing in sin unrepentant is enroute to hell 1 Cor 6:9-12. Mortal sins point to a clearer state of the heart 1 Cor 5:1, which is why Paul said that any calling themselves Christians and in this type of sin must be removed from gatherings 1 Cor 5:11-12.

4. Only God does not make mistakes Num 23:19 and can truly judge heart and mind Jer 17:9-10.

 

[Garee]

As I pointed out to a priest friend of mine, the present Pope that's in the Vatican is the very person that found all the liberal Bishops that were assigned under the previous Pope. Francis, was a false leader, and this Pope is walking the same path

Are you saying the Pope is a false apostle false prophet?

 

[B-A-C]

There are some in the Vatican and around the world and unfortunately it seems to be the majority or at least they're in locked up with the present Pope who has made his intentions known to us that he definitely is not standing with the Lord on a number of serious subjects like homosexuality, or blessing the union of two of the same sex. Something that we are completely against. It's not even scriptural.

As I pointed out to a priest friend of mine, the present Pope that's in the Vatican is the very person that found all the liberal Bishops that were assigned under the previous Pope. Francis, was a false leader, and this Pope is walking the same path.

Years ago.. I was a drummer in a church band (I still am.. but..) the church I was going to at the time lost the head Pastor. So the church more or less shutdown. I was looking for a church for a while. Some friends of mine (I would say acquaintances) needed a drummer at their church, so I started going there. To be honest.. that's not a good reason to go to a church. After I had been going there a while, I found out they were pretty Calvinistic.
The sermon one Sunday morning was "God is in Control". In fact He's so much in control of you, that when you sin.. it's because God made you sin.

I wasn't married to my wife yet, but we were dating at the time. She usually went to a different church, but she visited mine that morning so she could "see me play the drums". When she heard the pastor say.. "God makes you sin". She asked me if I believed that. I said no. Then she asked a pretty profound question... "Then why do you go to this church?"

I had to think about that for a while.. it was a good question... why WAS I going to that church? Ultimately it was because my friends went there, and I could play the drums there. It had nothing to do with Jesus. (Like I said, not a good reason)

======================================

Another story, bear with me.. I'm going somewhere here. When I was a young child, my Father was in the Navy we lived on Kodiak island in Alaska.
There were only two churches there at the time. A Russian Orthodox church that didn't speak English.. and a Pentecostal Oneness church (non trinity). My family didn't speak Russian, and they are trinitarian... what to do? WE attended the Oneness church for a while.. I suppose it was better than no church at all.

======================================

The point is... sometimes you have no choice.... but for everyone else... why DO you attend the church you do? Especially if you don't agree with many of the teachings?

About two weeks later.. I started attending her church.

 

[Bill Taylor]

If the works these people did were undefiled works as those mentioned in James 1:27, it would cause God to pay them a visit and they would be gifted salvation and faith to become His children.

The problem is that the works these 'so called Christians' did were dead works. Works that appealed to their pride. 'Prophesying, healing the sick, casting out demons'. Wow, what great men of God. Cough cough. Works as opposed to helping out an orphan or changing an old ladies light bulb.

James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

But the question is is that enough?

 

[Bill]

Even though I believe in OSAS, I agree with you. This is teaching complacency and in this age of evil, it is certainly extremely foolish.

Scripture is crystal clear on four items.

1. We can know that we are Christians 2 Cor 13:5.

2. Even though we pass our test, we must not assume we pass God's test 1 Cor 10:12 and must continue working out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12.

3. Anyone continuing in sin unrepentant is enroute to hell 1 Cor 6:9-12. Mortal sins point to a clearer state of the heart 1 Cor 5:1, which is why Paul said that any calling themselves Christians and in this type of sin must be removed from gatherings 1 Cor 5:11-12.

4. Only God does not make mistakes Num 23:19 and can truly judge heart and mind Jer 17:9-10.

Unrepentent sinners.

OSAS, How can we think that God does not forgive when people backslide?

There are plenty of examples both ways where those claiming to be Christian will either experience backsliding and returning. Or have a strong relationship with God then go off the deep end as the preacher from India has done. I hope he returns to true faith. But he was given much, and now is preaching falsehood.

I can understand how the once saved always saved get thier philosophy from. But do not agree with it.

 

[KingJ]

But the question is is that enough?

James 1:27 says it is. It starts with 'religion that God accepts'.

 

[KingJ]

Unrepentent sinners.

OSAS, How can we think that God does not forgive when people backslide?

There are plenty of examples both ways where those claiming to be Christian will either experience backsliding and returning. Or have a strong relationship with God then go off the deep end as the preacher from India has done. I hope he returns to true faith. But he was given much, and now is preaching falsehood.

I can understand how the once saved always saved get thier philosophy from. But do not agree with it.

We see people coming and going. God does not. He only sees those who are with Him and those who are not.

 

[Bill]

We see people coming and going. God does not. He only sees those who are with Him and those who are not.

God longs for all his children to be with him, like an anxious father. But not all chidren turn to what is Holy and Good.

You have a choice to be with God or not. You did not learn the leason of Peter and Judas. They both rejected Jesus. Between the two, Peters rejection was more severe as it was God the Father that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah.

Peter wept.
Judas did not.

Peter greaved
Judas did not

It was Peter Jesus gave authority too, to take care of his flock

They both had a place in heaven. Judas rejected his, even though he knew it was there, Jesus even said so.

 

[KingJ]

God longs for all his children to be with him, like an anxious father. But not all chidren turn to what is Holy and Good.

You have a choice to be with God or not. You did not learn the leason of Peter and Judas. They both rejected Jesus. Between the two, Peters rejection was more severe as it was God the Father that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah.

Peter wept.
Judas did not.

Peter greaved
Judas did not

It was Peter Jesus gave authority too, to take care of his flock

They both had a place in heaven. Judas rejected his, even though he knew it was there, Jesus even said so.

It is beyond me that you think God would be so foolish to make Judas a Christian. It is like you guys either think God is a fool or truly have no clue as to what exactly a Christian is.

Judas and Peter were never 'God's children' on earth. A Christian is someone who is made a child of God. You can only become a child when you are adopted into His family by the blood of Jesus. This after a true free will decision to serve Him.

Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

And passing His judgement of your heart and mind Jer 17:9-10.

As such, we need to apply a similar but different thought pattern with Judas and Peter. Similar because they were disciples chosen, but different because they are not 'yet' grafted into the family of God.

Fortunately for us, scripture is crystal clear on what God thought of both their hearts.

We see that Peter was given a revelation of who Jesus was in Matt 16:16-17, just as we are in 1 Cor 12:3. Peter clearly passed God's test of his heart and mind. But Judas, clearly not as we know that Jesus calls him a devil from day 1.

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Matt 16:16-17 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

Peter was gifted saving faith to believe Jesus is the Messiah, Lord. Just as we are given when we become Christians.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.